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Don Lemon Tonight

Michael Cohen Postpones Capitol Hill Testimony, Cites Family's Safety Issue; A Rare Message From President Trump; Trump Says He Will Give State Of The Union After Shutdown Ends; Judge Orders Manafort to Appear in Court Friday. Aired 11-12a ET

Aired January 23, 2019 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[23:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

We have some big developments in the Russia investigation. So, we're going to spend this entire hour ahead digging deep into all things Russia.

As President Trump's former lawyer and fixer Michael Cohen postponing his testimony before Congress, which was set for next month citing, what he calls, threats against his family by the president and Rudy Giuliani.

A source telling CNN Cohen's wife and father-in-law feel threatened by public comments from Trump and Giuliani. So, let's listen to some of them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Did he make a deal to keep his wife who supposedly, maybe I'm wrong, but you can check it? Did he keep -- make a deal to keep his wife out of trouble?

He should give information maybe on his father-in-law because that's the one that people want to look at. Because where does that money -- that's the money in the family.

JEANINE PIRRO, FOX NEWS HOST: What's in his father-in-law's name?

TRUMP: I don't know but you'll find out and you look into it because nobody knows what's going on over there.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: So, it was OK to go after the father-in-law?

RUDY Giuliani, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: Of course, it is if the father-in-law is a criminal. He comes from the Ukraine. The reason that's important is he may have ties to something called organized crime. When somebody testifies against your client you go out and you look at what's wrong with them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Wow. So, does all of that amount to a form of witness tampering? Our legal experts are going to debate that.

And tonight, the chairman of the House oversight committee is vowing that Cohen will testify and weighing whether it will take a subpoena to force him to do just that.

And then there's Paul Manafort. President Trump's former campaign chairman, his lawyers disputing the allegation by Special Counsel Robert Mueller that Manafort lied to federal prosecutors, the federal judge ordering him to appear in court on Friday.

There's lots to discuss. So, let's get right to Michael Cohen, the Michael Cohen news. Shimon Prokupecz joins us.

Shimon, hello to you.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Hi.

LEMON: So, Cohen announce that he's postponing his congressional testimony, ongoing threats against his family by the president and Giuliani, he says. This postponement took Capitol Hill by surprise, didn't it?

PROKUPECZ: Yes, it certainly did. Look, Don, everyone was looking forward really to this day. Certainly, there were members of Congress that were looking to this day. They wanted to finally hear from Michael Cohen. It was going to be a big day. And certainly no one expected it to go this way.

And when you hear why Michael Cohen decided finally to say, you know what, maybe I shouldn't do this, the idea that perhaps he felt threatened certainly is concerning many.

And what the president has done since Michael Cohen had announced that he was going to go ahead before members of Congress, go out in public and say what he wanted to say, you can see that the president and Rudy Giuliani started this campaign of attacking him.

And really, they went where it really would hurt him because Michael Cohen, you know, when we have talked to him certainly and people close to him, he's always been very concerned about his family. And what you saw is the president specifically targeting his father-in-law, talking about his wife.

In one tweet recently brought up his father raising the issue that perhaps Michael Cohen cooperated to save his father -- father-in-law and then saying lying to reduce his jail time. Watch father-in-law. Again, intimating there that perhaps Michael Cohen was doing this to save his father-in-law. The president today reacting to the news by Michael Cohen after Michael Cohen agreed not to testify. And here's what the president said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I would say he's been threatened by the truth. He's only been threatened by the truth. And he doesn't want to tell the truth from me or other of his clients. (END VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: And you know, Don, there are many people who feel that what the president the campaign that he undertook and certainly his attorney Rudy Giuliani in his latest comments from Sunday, they were successful here in what they tried to do here. But it could be that they may still be able to hear from Michael Cohen. You know, as you said, he will likely be subpoenaed and. We'll see what happens from there. But you know, members of Congress they don't have a whole lot of time. He's set to start jail, his prison sentence in March.

[23:04:56] LEMON: He knows so much about the father-in-law but when ask what's his name, I don't know.

PROKUPECZ: Yes.

LEMON: What does that tell you? Tactic. That tells you the tactic. But listen, I got more to talk about. So, also legal news today about President Trump former campaign manager, Paul Manafort that I mentioned in the open here. Disputing Mueller's accusations that he lied. What's he saying?

PROKUPECZ: Yes. So, his lawyers are saying what you would expect him saying that. He just used confused when he was interviewed by the lawyers when the special counsel's office, by the FBI agents. He wasn't certain about things that they were asking, but you know, they're arguing that he was not lying.

The special counsel's office when they filed their motion that they had about 180 pieces of evidence, documents that they submitted to detail and just, you know, how Paul Manafort was lying. His attorneys are saying, no, you know, he was confused. He didn't remember certain thing, but the idea that he was lying, that did not happen in this case.

LEMON: Yes. So, can you clear this up for me. Paul Manafort did not want to appear in court on Friday, but the judge is telling him what now?

PROKUPECZ: The judge is making him come in. We've seen Paul Manafort ask the judge previously and she's granted this motion to him. They've asked that he not appear in court because of the travel time.

Essentially, you know, they argue that it's too complicated. He has to get up early in the morning -- early -- early in the morning to be transported to the D.C. courthouse. He doesn't like to do that. And if he doesn't have to appear, if it's not necessary for him to appear they rather he not go there.

And quite honestly, just that he doesn't want to really wake up so early and come to court. Well, the judge today said, you know what, I've let you do this way too many times. This is way too important. You need to be here on Friday and so she's making him appear.

Now the other thing that's interesting is that he's asked that he not appear in his prison uniform, this jail uniform. That we're waiting to hear if the judge is going to allow him to appear in his suit. She has previously allowed him to appear in a suit. We'll see what she decides about Friday.

LEMON: This is such a circus. All of it. Shimon, thank you. I don't know how you keep it all together in your head.

PROKUPECZ: I don't know why.

LEMON: Thank you, Shimon. Neither do I, none of us. Thank you, Shimon.

I want to bring in now Matthew Rosenberg, also Max Boot, the author of "The Corrosion of Conservatism: Why I Left the Right."

Good evening, gents. So, let me -- I'm going to start with you, Max.

OK. So, he's concerned about what Giuliani and Trump is saying. He's concerned for his family about that. I mean, it sound -- but doesn't it sound like if you're concerned about this, isn't that a textbook mob tactic? What else would you be worried about besides someone retaliating in some possibly physical way? I don't know.

MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Don, I come back to section 1512 of the U.S. Criminal Code which says that whoever knowingly uses intimidation with intent to influence the like, or prevent the testimony of any person in an official proceeding shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.

That is the definition of witness tampering and that seems to be what Donald Trump is doing when he's threatening Michael Cohen's father-in- law, whose name, as you pointed out, he doesn't even know. It's Fima Shusterman, by the way. But he is threatening Michael Cohen's father- in-law and he's also threatening Michael Cohen saying he's a rat that he should be going to jail for much longer period of time.

And by the way, on the flip side of it, he's also praising Roger Stone for not cooperating with the independent special counsel, special counsel. He's saying that Roger Stone has guts, which again is witness tampering and the president whose duty under the Constitution is to take care that the laws be faithfully executed should not be encouraging people not to cooperate with federal prosecutors.

That is a violation of his basic duty under the Constitution as well as it seems on the face of it, I would say of these witness tampering statutes.

LEMON: But what is this, Matthew? I mean, is this, is this Russia? Like, why would Michael Cohen be afraid of -- in America, sunlight is the best disinfectant. Don't you think that what on earth would he be afraid of? Shouldn't Congress and the American people hear why he is afraid to testify in front of Congress?

Wouldn't that be the best way to thwart any sort of retaliation from anyone is to get it out there so that every single person knows about it and then what are they going to do? What's the president going to do? MATTHEW ROSENBERG, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: You're absolutely

right. That's surely, that's the case I've made the sources were trying to get to go on the record.

I mean, look, you know, let's step back for a minute here. Remember, we're dealing with a series of people who all seem to be caught in overlapping lies with one another who are busy. The president is calling his former lawyer a liar. I mean, this was his former lawyer for year so if this guy is a liar why would he a lawyer.

There's so much going on here. I think for Cohen, you know, he said a lot of things the last few years. And what he's saying now doesn't really comport what he's said when Trump was first elected.

[23:10:01] He knows that he's going to sit down. Republicans like Jim Jordan and others are giving him incredibly hard time. I mean, the Republicans on the committee telegraph that. I think Jim Jordan said today, you know, if he comes, we're ready, you know. They were ready to kind of call him out on every kind of contradiction, contrary statement he's made.

And I think if you're Cohen you've got to worry that you're also going to contradict yourself and get caught in potentially, you know, that stating some in the Congress fire that could bring more charges. You know, there are just a whole lot of issues.

LEMON: Well, the other thing, Max, maybe there's a there - there. I don't -- I don't -- I really -- I can't understand it because all right, let me ask this. Because CNN previously reported that prosecutors in New York threaten Michael Cohen with more accounts that could have implicated his wife, reported that his taxi business was closely linked to family members including his father-in-law.

Given that he does -- given all of that do you think that he has a legitimate reason to be worried about Trump's threats instead of -- instead of retaliation maybe in the physical way that it will retaliate against the family and did into their business and then maybe find something that is actually not on the up and up.

BOOT: Well, I mean, if you're mired in that middle of the criminal justice system as Michael Cohen is, I mean, there are obvious reasons why you should be concerned about the president of the United States.

LEMON: OK. Hold right there.

BOOT: Yes.

LEMON: They already know that. They already know what Michael Cohen is involved with. They already know that his family is involved with, but they know that already. Maybe it's -- I don't know, maybe coming to light. Is that the fear? And then the other thing is using I'm concerned about my family's safety. Is that a cover?

BOOT: Well, it's hard for me to get inside Michael Cohen's mind and figure out what he's worried about, whether he is genuinely worried or as what suggested that this maybe just a cover for the fact that he doesn't want to testify. And I'm sure that Special Counsel Mueller is probably not thrilled about him testifying.

But I was just going to say that regardless of Michael Cohen's state of mind, if you're somebody who isn't trapped in the link system, you need to be concerned when the president of the United States who is the chief law enforcement officer of the United States, the man that the attorney general answers to when he is making threats against you, he has the capacity to carry out those threats. Now whether that will actually happen or not is an open question.

But remember, there's now an acting attorney general who is basically a political hack for Donald Trump. And so, you know, I don't know that he can necessarily file charges or take legal retaliation against Michael Cohen, but it's not crazy for Michael Cohen to be concerned about those consequences.

LEMON: Do you think that -- OK. Again, those are just hypotheticals because everyone is trying to wrap their heads and like why would he be --

BOOT: Right.

LEMON: -- concerned about that. All right. Listen. Republicans say that they were told that Cohen's attorney that he couldn't testify about anything currently under investigation. The question is, Matthew, how valuable was his testimony or is his testimony anyway?

ROSENBERG: I mean, that's the other question. I think it's a good one too. So, there's a lot of things that are under investigation. He's spent 70 hours with prosecutors in the special counsel's office, the Southern District of New York. Presumably a lot of questions are going to come about thing that he was not told not to discuss.

But I think for the Democrats this was going to be the kind of the marquee for their -- many investigations that are probably unfolding over the next two years into the Trump presidency whether it relates to Russia, relates to the stuff Cohen is involved with paying hush money to the president's former mistresses.

You know, I also want to make it clear that even if Cohen had things to be afraid of in terms of what he might say, the fact that the president of the United States and his lawyer are getting up and suggesting that there's something to be found here that there could be legal jeopardy for him, you know, is, I think anybody would be reasonably afraid in that situation.

LEMON: But do you think that this president is that dangerous and the people around him that someone would be worried about telling the truth or their truth about it? Do you think?

ROSENBERG: I think when somebody makes a lot of threats, whether you're a political opponent that he threatens to -- that he keeps saying needs to be investigated.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I think that's huge then. ROSENBERG: Or from a lawyer you should probably believe what they are

saying.

LEMON: Yes.

ROSENBERG: That people, take people at their word.

LEMON: Yes. I was just going to say that is huge if that is indeed the case. Stick with me, everyone, much more to talk about when we come back.

[23:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A federal judge ordering former Trump campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, to appear in court Friday as his legal team continue to dispute prosecutor's evidence that he lied during the cooperation interviews and grand jury testimony.

Back with me, Matthew Rosenberg and Max Boot. So, Matthew, Paul Manafort, Mueller says that he lied. Manafort's lawyers are rejecting that and saying that he provided information, quote, "the best to his recollection." Or he, quote, "simply did not remember." Can he really just talk this up to memory issue do you think?

ROSENBERG: I mean, you can try. The problem is when you are a convicted criminal, who is engaged in fraud and tax evasion, and other issues, your credibility is pretty limited. So, getting up to say I just forgot at that point it tends not to carry too much water.

LEMON: OK. Manafort spoke to Mueller's office nine times. His lawyers are saying that these sessions can be stressful for witnesses. So, I don't know. What do you think? Where do you land on this?

BOOT: Well, I mean, I think the whole Manafort/Trump relationship over the last year or so I think needs to be carefully examined, I'm sure will be carefully examined by Robert Mueller because it seems like Trump was dangling the possibility of a pardon before Manafort is suggesting that there could be, you know, help for him if he remains silent.

And again, this goes to the issue of witness tampering. I think that's something that this needs to be seriously investigated.

LEMON: What do you think hearing that Paul Manafort wanted to waive his right to appear in court on Friday because of time involved in having U.S. marshals transport him to court? The judge is ordering him to come. Does that excuse, Matthew, does that -- does that excuse make any sense to you do you think?

[23:20:06] ROSENBERG: I mean, a little bit. I've got to imagine showing -- showing up in court over and over again to be dealt, you know, with losses in a sense where, you know, this court appearances should never seem to go well for you would make you not want to show up in court. But, you know, the judge wants him there.

(CROSSTALK) LEMON: Does he really have a choice?

ROSENBERG: Yes. You know.

LEMON: I mean, don't do the crime if you don't do the time.

ROSENBERG: That's the problem. That's the problem.

LEMON: Was that --

(CROSSTALK)

BOOT: I came to think of it.

LEMON: I don't remember.

BOT: I mean, you know, larger point, Don, to pull back. Let's not lose sight of the fact this is the president's campaign manager and personal lawyer we're talking. Both of whom are convicted felons. This is not normal and we're talking about how they are trying to get out from under this and deal with this and so forth. But the fact is they are convicted felons. And that's a reflection of who Donald Trump is.

LEMON: I mean, think about it. To put it into perspective when you think about all of the things that are going on, all these people who are connected to this president. All the convictions the people who lied, the people who are going to prison, this is -- this is reality.

BOOT: Yes.

LEMON: Yet nothing happened. It's all well and good. What kind of reality are we living in right now?

BOOT: I mean, it looks like a mob movie brought to life, you know, with Donald Trump himself attacking, you know, Michael Cohen as a rat, which is kind of the way that mobsters talk in movies. I mean, this is like an organized crime racket, not a normal presidential administration. And all these people are going to jail. And I'm sure more will be joining them before too long. I think that's a reflection of the most unethical administration in American history.

LEMON: You know, just quickly, I hate to keep calling on you because of your voice. But --

(CROSSTALK)

BOOT: Right. The horse is announcing Donald Trump --

LEMON: I want to ask you because Matthew responded to this earlier. Why do you think is -- because this is the not the first time that Manafort has had an issue with a judge about appearing in court. Do you think he's embarrassed? Do you think he's just -- Matthew said I don't want to go and show up because things aren't good, I go to court? What is it?

BOOT: I wish I could say, Don. I really don't know. LEMON: Is Manafort still banking on a pardon, do you think, Matthew?

ROSENBERG: I mean, I can't imagine he is at this point. But you know. Look, if they have had conversations it's something that you know, I think we'd all want to know. It's something we should have looked at the times. I'm sure investigators would look into that and others are looking into.

LEMON: Yes. It's all so shady. Shady McShady. That's an understatement, right. Thank you both. I -- get better.

BOOT: I will.

LEMON: It hurts me to listen to your voice. Thank you, Max.

BOOT: I regret I have but one voice to give for CNN.

LEMON: Thank you, Matthew. Thank you, Max. I appreciate it.

Michael Cohen says he and his family have been threatened by President Trump and Rudy Giuliani. Does he have reason to be afraid of the president?

[23:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Michael Cohen says he's postponing his testimony to Congress. He's accusing the president and his attorney Rudy Giuliani of making threats against his family.

Is this the sort of tactic that Donald Trump might have been accused of way before he was president back when he was a businessman?

Let's discuss now. Michael D'Antonio is here. He is the author of "The Truth About Trump" and he literally wrote the book on Trump.

Thank you, sir. I appreciate you joining us here.

Listen, I want to start with the latest on the president. We'll get to the -- to Michael Cohen in a moment. This is him on about the shutdown on Twitter. Here's a tweet right here. He says, "As a shutdown was going on, Nancy Pelosi asked me to give the State of the Union address. I agree. She then changed her mind because of the shutdown suggesting a later date.

This is her prerogative. I will do the address when the shutdown is over. I'm not looking for an alternative venue for the State of the Union or the SOTU address because there is no venue that can compete with the history, tradition and importance of the House chamber. I look forward to giving a great State of the Union address in the near future." Wow. What's your reaction?

MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think Nancy Pelosi played this right. You know, she understood how much the president valued the venue. You know, when he -- the language that he uses its sort of like a showman's language, the venue, rather than the location for the State of the Union. But she understood that this mattered to him. I also think that the

president understands what the polls are showing. And he's very sensitive to polls. As much as he cherry picks the ones he likes, he knows that he's losing this battle.

LEMON: But have you ever heard this president write something like that? I mean, it seems like a normal presidency, right? Listen, "As a shutdown was going on, Nancy Pelosi asked me to give the State of the Union address. I agree. She then changed her mind because of the shutdown suggesting a later date.

This is her prerogative. I will do the address when the shutdown is over. I'm not looking for an alternative venue for the State of the Union address -- State of the Union address because there is no venue that can compete with the history, tradition and importance of the House chamber. I look forward to giving a great State of the Union address in the near future."

For this president, that's more than a little submissive.

D'ANTONIO: It's shocking. I mean, this sounds like something that maybe Ivanka wrote or Jared Kushner. It really doesn't sound like Donald Trump's language. This is a fellow who has troubles stringing three words together in the right order.

(CROSSTALK)

[23:30:03] LEMON: So what do you think this means?

D'ANTONIO: And he is also being respectful.

LEMON: So, what does this mean?

D'ANTONIO: I think that he is scared. I think he is afraid. He's politically afraid. The Senate Republicans are probably telling him this is a disaster. He sees that people are suffering. He sees that Americans are fed up with this. Maybe he's going to act presidential because he's being forced to act presidential.

LEMON: Interesting. Let's turn to Michael Cohen, OK? You know him. You have written a book on the president. For 12 years, Michael D'Antonio, Michael Cohen was the top attorney at the Trump Organization.

He was involved in Trump's political, his personal dealings. We talked before about how loyal he was to this president. And loyalty is a one- way street. And now the president is going after Michael Cohen's family. What do you make of this?

D'ANTONIO: Well, it is straight out of the Donald Trump playbook. But one of the richest ironies here is that back in the day, Michael Cohen was the guy who threatened everybody else on behalf of Donald Trump. So we now have the guy who used to be the enforcer, the fixer, the person who threatened everyone complaining about how he's being threatened. And it is a travesty. This is the president of the United States threatening and using his lawyer to threaten private citizen, but this is what we're reduced to in this country. People acting like thugs. It's very hard to consider which guy is the real bad guy here.

And with Rudy Giuliani, I think when he says -- you know, there's a thing called organized crime, that Cohen's family was somehow implicated in. Rudy Giuliani's father served time in Sing Sing for armed robbery. He was in the thing called the mafia. So for these men to go after anybody's family is astounding.

It's the hype of hypocrisy and it's something the American public shouldn't stand for and it's something that Michael Cohen shouldn't stand for. So, in that regard, I think he's right.

LEMON: Michael D'Antonio coming with the facts tonight. So, listen, Cohen is citing ongoing threats against his family from the president and Rudy Giuliani, as you just mentioned. Do you think that he has a real reason to be afraid? And of what?

D'ANTONIO: I don't think he needs to -- he doesn't need to fear for his physical safety. This sort of reminds me of when Stormy Daniels said that someone approached her in a parking lot and threatened her. It's possible that that happened.

I don't think President Trump is the person who is going to follow through on a physical threat, and he no longer employs these private security men who are former police detectives and threatening in their own right. They are physically imposing guys who really scare people.

But he now does control the Department of Justice. He controls the FBI. So, Michael Cohen's real fear should be that his family is going to be targeted unfairly by the Justice Department. And I think that that is something we all should worry about.

LEMON: Doesn't the Justice Department already know? I mean, having gone through all of these, Robert Mueller and FBI, don't you think they know everything there is to know about both, you know, the Cohen family, his wife's family, all of them? They know?

D'ANTONIO: They know. You know, this -- what's even a great sign of how ridiculous this is, it's something that you pointed out, was that the president didn't even know the name of the man he was smearing.

So, we've got a person who is never straight with the facts, although tonight he actually recounted the history of what happened between him and Speaker Pelosi accurately. So, that makes me also think that he didn't write the statement --

LEMON: No.

D'ANTONIO: -- because this was not a person who he's familiar with.

LEMON: You know what that was? This is what that was. You know what would be good? Maybe should say something about the, you know, the dad or something, you know. Oh, yeah, that's a good idea. You know, the dad did this. Oh, yeah, that's interesting. I'm just -- this is just in my head. And then the president gets on T.V. and says what about the dad or whatever. What's his name? I don't know.

(LAUGHTER)

D'ANTONIO: Right.

LEMON: That's where it seems that came from when you don't know someone's name. When you know all the facts, if you're going to point to someone. I got to go, Michael, though. Thank you, sir. I appreciate that.

D'ANTONIO: Thank you.

LEMON: I'll see you soon. Will the president's comments about Michael Cohen qualify as witness intimidation or tampering? We're going to look at what the law says about that.

[23:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Michael Cohen says the president and Rudy Giuliani are threatening his family with comments like these.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Did he make a deal to keep his wife, who supposedly, maybe I'm wrong, but you can check it. Did he make a deal to keep his wife out of trouble?

(voice-over): He should give information maybe on his father-in-law, because that's the one that people want the to look at. Because where does that money, that's the money in the family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): What is his father-in-law's name?

TRUMP (voice-over): I don't know, but you'll find out, and you'll look into it because nobody knows what's going on over there.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: It's OK to go after the father-in-law?

[23:40:00] RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT Donald Trump: Of course, it is, if the father-in-law is a criminal. He comes from the Ukraine. The reason that's important is he may have ties to something called organized crime. When somebody testifies against your client, you go out and you look at what's wrong with them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: It's so gross. Ryan Lizza is here, Asha Rangappa and Harry Litman. I mean, am I wrong, guys? It is just so -- you'd have to climb up to get to the gutter after this. This is so vile, Ryan. I mean, what the hell is this?

RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, can you imagine if President Clinton had publicly gone after Monica Lewinsky's family when he was worried that she might testify against him? Can you imagine if Reagan had gone after some of the witnesses in the Iran- Contra episode who were going up to Congress to testify?

People in their own party would have been outraged and calling him down. I think what's so striking about this is just the silence from Republicans who are again just sort of standing by while the president plows through another norm, does something that none of us thought a president would do.

LEMON: I'm just saying -- this is a president. This is the president of the United States saying, well, did he do this? It sounds like people are sitting around like in a bridge game or something talking crap about, or sitting at a bar saying, do you know what his wife's father did? Remember them? They lived on Elm Street. They were the nastiest.

It just sounds -- it's so beneath the dignity of not even the presidency, but of just someone sitting on a bar stool, a drunk sitting on a bar stool at a bar. It is disgusting.

Harry, this is what Congressman Ted Lieu tweeted after the news came out. He said, "Cohen is delaying his testimony due to threats from Trump and Giuliani. Here's what 18 USC 1512. It says, "whoever knowingly uses intimidation, threatens, or attempts to do so with intent to influence, delay, or prevent the testimony of any person is guilty of a felony."

So, there's the criminal code. Do you think the president and his attorney's comments qualify as witness intimidation or witness tampering?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: That's the statute and the critical point would be intent to delay or harass. And the defense that he would bring is, yep, I am a sewer dweller, I'm a jerk, and I say this stuff all the time. I insult women's looks. I insult the I.Q. of Congress members. This is just the kind of jerk I am day in and day out. And it's not specifically intended to keep him from testifying. And if that's right, then I get to skate on the charge.

Of course, it doesn't really matter, in a way, because he's not going to be indicted. It's Congress, Congressman Lieu, but also you heard tonight from Congressman Schiff, Congressman Cummings, Senator Warren, they are all very concerned.

If he's to be judged as having intimidated witness here, it will be in the form of the Congress. So it's almost as if prosecutors have begun to say this is a serious charge. In a court of law, I actually think it wouldn't be that easy to prove, the intent part.

LEMON: Yeah. So, Asha, could the president's remarks, could they be interpreted though as prodding the DOJ to investigate Cohen's father- in-law and is that an abuse of power?

ASHA RANGAPPA, CNN LEGAL AND NATIONAL SECURTY ANALYST: Yes, and I think that's where the difference comes. You know, where Michael Cohen is about to testify, he has been, you know, ranting and raving about Cohen for awhile, and then suddenly he's like take a look at the father-in-law. And it's like, what? Where did that come from? What does that have to do with the price of milk?

And, you know, we have been hearing, Don, for the last two years that, you know, the president can't obstruct justice because he commands the executive branch and he can stop and start investigations whenever he wants. We've been hearing that drumbeat over and over again.

So, I think it is reasonable for somebody in Cohen's position to lock at the president of the United States, not your next door neighbor, the president of the United States saying I know something about you and I have the full force of the law that I can sick on you if I want to.

And so that's where, I think, it's not just about being a jerk. It's about the power that he holds and that those words carry great weight because they actually have the authority to direct action against somebody that matters to Cohen and could cause him to change his mind about what he wants to say.

[23:45:01] LEMON: I have nothing to hide. I'm looking forward to Michael Cohen's testimony. I want him to testify to show the American people that I have nothing to hide. There was no collusion. There was no wrongdoing. Nothing happened.

Michael Cohen, you're free to testify and tell everything because I know in the end, I will be exonerated. Isn't that what an innocent person does? No? Wrong?

LIZZA: Absolutely.

LEMON: Yeah.

LIZZA: I think what's so jarring about this, Don, this is the kind of thing frankly that Nixon said in the privacy of the Oval Office and that was recorded, right? And it came out, it was like an earthquake. The president was talking like the head of a criminal enterprise. What was difficult for us to wrap our mind around is the president does it on Twitter or he does it --

LEMON: He does it in the open. It's in a soundbite right there.

(LAUGHTER)

LIZZA: So, in a sense, it's like, well, how bad can it be if he is doing it out in the open?

(LAUGHTER)

LIZZA: And, you know, I think --

LEMON: I got to get to the break. Hold your thoughts. We'll be right back. We're going to talk about Paul Manafort on the other side as well.

[23:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: Paul Manafort hasn't been seen in public since October, and if he had his way, he wouldn't be appearing in court this Friday either. Back with me now, Ryan, Asha and Harry.

Harry, let's talk with you this one. Manafort wanted to skip appearing on Friday, arguing that transportation from jail in Alexandria, Virginia to the federal courthouse in D.C. is too time consuming. Federal Judge Amy Berman shot him down. He is in prison. Where else is he going to go, though?

LITMAN: Right. I mean, that was really interesting. Ever since he pleaded guilty, he's gone limp as a rag doll, has been completely passive and hasn't wanted to contest anything and has really tried to avoid any kind of evidentiary hearing. Even his submission today said, please don't do an evidentiary hearing. That's been his strategy. It's a pathetic one, but maybe it's consistent with sort of fishing for a pardon.

And she said this time huh-uh, look, we have an adversary system here. This is an important hearing. You'll be here Friday with a suit, and you'll actually have to contest things. Because in the past, he hasn't shown up. His lawyers have said things, and then he's rebutted them later. She said, you know, you've got to play your part here and not completely go limp, and we'll see you in court on Friday.

LEMON: Asha, Mueller accused Manafort of lying about his contacts with suspected Russian agent, Konstantin Kilimnik. In a nine-page filing today, Manafort's attorney says that Mueller's evidence merely demonstrates a lack of consistency in Mr. Manafort's recollection of certain facts and events. What do we know about the evidence against him?

RANGAPPA: Well, we haven't seen what evidence Mueller has, but if he's willing to file this and he is willing, I understand, to produce witnesses if he has to, he knows for a fact that Manafort was in contact with a Russian agent or someone connected to Russian intelligence and passing polling data.

And this really goes to the heart of collusion. So you can probably see why Manafort doesn't really want any of that evidence to come out. And I think that we need to remember that Manafort isn't somebody whose really been on the up and up.

I mean, after being charged in D.C., charged in Virginia, he then was obstructing justice and speaking of witness tampering, tampering with witnesses. And now, you know, now is claiming that he just forgot. And I don't know how hard it is to forget, you know, meeting with Russian agents, but I find that to be a tenuous argument.

LEMON: Interesting. Ryan, so Manafort is at the center of a lot of contacts with Russians, like the infamous Trump Tower meeting with the Russian lawyer, right, who promised dirt on Hillary Clinton. Do you remember the one where Don Jr. says, and if that's so, I love it, right? And then he owed a lot of money to the Russian oligarch, Oleg Deripaska. Is he key to Mueller's collusion case?

LIZZA: Oh, absolutely. I mean, he's central -- he's central to it. This is someone who disappeared from American politics, went over to Ukraine and got in bed with pro-Russian parties and eventually one of the Russian oligarchs, Deripaska. All of a sudden, he goes missing and owing Deripaska, according to Deripaska, millions of dollars. And then the guys shows up, running Donald Trump's campaign.

You don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to look at that set of facts and say huh, this guy Putin was pro-Trump interfering in the election. I wonder if we should look into this Manafort situation. So, of course. And then he's back channeling to Deripaska during the campaign, offering him inside data.

I've never run a presidential campaign, but I imagine you're pretty busy when you're doing it, and it would be unusual that you have time on your hands to back channel to a Russian oligarch. So, yeah, he is absolutely central, and I think considering how much has been redacted from that case, we don't even know the tip of the iceberg about what man -- excuse me, about what Mueller has on that case.

LEMON: Boy, oh, boy. What a night, as it always has been for the last two, three years. Thank you, all. See you next time.

LIZZA: Thank God it's Friday.

LEMON: No, it's not.

[23:55:00] LITMAN: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Well, it is. No, it's not. It's Thursday or late Wednesday.

LIZZA: Wednesday.

LEMON: No, it's Wednesday. It's Thursday in five minutes. Thank you, guys. I appreciate it.

LIZZA: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: See you soon. Thanks for watching, everyone. Before we leave you tonight, here is a look at CNN film, "Three Identical Strangers." It airs Sunday night.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I tell people my story, they don't believe it, but it's true.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): I've always thought, what would it be like if you turn the corner one day and you saw yourself?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my god.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): The first time that the boys met, the three together, it was a miracle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): There was nothing that could keep us apart.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's when things kind of got funky.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something was just not right. I'd like to know the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): There was always a question mark.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): The parents had never been told.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): They're trying to conceal what they did from the people they did it to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): There's still so much that we don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): How could you not tell us?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): "Three Identical Strangers," Sunday at 9:00 Eastern on CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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