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Don Lemon Tonight

Day 34 Of Government Shutdown, Still No Solution; Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross Criticized For Out-Of-Touch Statement; Interview With Rep. Harley Rouda (D), California; Federal Workers Still Not Paid; Michael Ertel Resigned After Racist Pictures Emerged. Aired 10- 11p ET

Aired January 24, 2019 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[22:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: The game is over. Thank you for watching tonight. "CNN TONIGHT" with Don Lemon starts right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Do you remember the Rosalind Russell version of Auntie Mame?

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: When Gloria Upson tells her story about Bunny Bixler and she stands, I step on the ping-pong balls, and ups and downs. That's what this is -- it's true. That's what this is. They can all just get loans. I mean, come on.

CUOMO: I mean, straight out of Thurston Howell.

LEMON: Thurston Howell, III.

CUOMO: And where is lovie?

LEMON: Think about this, OK. Well, I want to give away my open, a little bit. But I'm going to let him say it. I'm going say this to you in response to what is happening. What are you talking about 800,000 workers and while I feel for their individuals and the hardships, 800,000 workers if they never get their pay which is not the case, they will eventually get it, but they never got it. And you are talking about, you know, a 30 of the percent of the GDP. It's not like a gigantic number overall. What the --

CUOMO: You know what that's called? That's called his truth. Remember who Wilbur Ross is. I'm old enough to remember. The tragedy of the mine that he owns -- owned, and the pushing, that had to be done to get him to put up money for those families and you think that it's that much of a stretch to say they don't get the pain that they are causing right now.

He told you everything that you need to hear, the president today, the mortgagor or the mortgagee. He didn't even know which term to use which is surprising given how much debt he's had in his life, that they are going to go easy on people. What is he talking about?

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: He said he'd reach out to landlords. He hasn't reach out to anybody as far as we know, and we know he'd do this on his own about it. He doesn't care about the pain. He cares about his promise.

LEMON: So, this was the conventional wisdom that turned out not to be true, it turned out to be because of other things, right, but economic anxiety. The people who supported this president who were concerned about the economic anxiety, some people are feeling it now.

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: The exact actual economic anxiety. And if you are part of the 800,000 people who are in this, you have to be, and I think the poll numbers are showing it. You have to be questioning the rationality of actually supporting the president at least on the whole wall thing. Do you not? Would you rather get a paycheck or would you rather get a wall?

CUOMO: Well, look, the polls are clear. His numbers within his own base are dropping. He is back in the mid-30s to be generous. The numbers are 70-30 in terms of whether or not you want to a wall for the shutdown, whether this is worth it. The numbers are against it.

That is the sin. The sin here is putting himself so shamelessly before everybody else. Look, again, like his daughter-in-law said and you know how I am and I like to keep the family clear of what the head of the family does.

LEMON: She said what she said.

CUOMO: She said what she said, that's a 100 percent, but she said, listen, you know, this is so much bigger than any one person.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: That is NeNe Leakes, by the way from --

CUOMO: Huh?

LEMON: That is NeNe Leakes from the "Housewives", I said what I said. But go on.

CUOMO: Look, she said it's so much bigger than any one person. The irony is, no. It's only about one person. This was gimmick of a slogan during a campaign and the part of Mexico paying for it was the beauty of it. They dropped that and now he is holding on to the farce, Don, and it's just not fair.

LEMON: Yes. I saw your interview with Kellyanne and I saw you on "The View" and could you stop disparaging me, please.

CUOMO: Stop trash talking me.

LEMON: I'm not trash -- I don't trash talk you outside in your face. I'm like Kellyanne. (CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Only on the screen, you're like a puppy when you're in my face.

LEMON: I'm like Kellyanne. You know what she said last night? Yesterday she said, I like to stab you in front. I don't stab on the back. So, I talk about you to your face. I don't talk about --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Do you know how many knife disarming moves I know? I'd give you a mustache.

LEMON: Listen, I got to tell you, though, and you know this, because we talked. There were -- you know, while we sit here and discuss while the folks in Washington, you know, sit there and fight, there are people who are actually out there working in the trenches.

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: Today, I had to go and do my civic duty even though, you know, I didn't get picked for the jury, I had to go to jury duty today and you know, there are people in long lines. There are people there, the women, and I called you because they said I love the cross talk between you and Chris, and I called you and you got to speak to the ladies.

One of them -- two of them they have husbands who they work for the state, but their husbands are on the federal side. They are being furloughed, they're not getting paychecks, and they told me I can't tell you how hard it is.

Now yet and still, Chris, with all of that going on, these women were making food for each other, I got cupcakes because one woman made cupcakes for everyone in the office, and they, you know, go around and around and they do that to help each other out.

That's what's happening in the real world. Honestly, as we sit here and the folks in Washington, we debate it and the folks in Washington can't get their acts together.

[22:05:01] CUOMO: Bad situations bring out the good in real people, but they shouldn't have to be doing that. This is completely avoidable and artificial. This is not an act of God, this is a Godless act that is going on right now, and people need to know that and has to end and the price must be paid.

LEMON: And you know what they said? They said I see you every night when you're like, Chris, I got to go, and they said he loves to hear himself talk.

CUOMO: They never said that. They never said that, and is it true, Don Lemon, that you didn't get picked for a jury today because they found you falling asleep during the question. LEMON: No, I didn't get picked for a jury today because I had already

served in May and it was a mistake, so I have a couple of years or I have to go back to get --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Is it true that you did not serve today because you could not --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: They didn't understand why I was there again.

CUOMO: -- tell them your birthday quickly enough.

LEMON: But listen. Why wasn't there again -- why was I'm there again. I didn't complain. I just went. And then I said, you know, I did it in May. And they're like, you did. You shouldn't be here and here is -- you don't have to go back. I was very happy to do my civic duty even though I am the last man in this building, sometimes I'm out at midnight usually, sometimes I'm out at 3a.m.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Here we go. Are we complaining about having two hours of primetime television again?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I was up at 7 a.m.

CUOMO: Is that what you are complaining about?

LEMON: Would you like to switch?

CUOMO: Boy, boy.

LEMON: Would you like to switch?

CUOMO: Yes, I'd switch, and have fun with Hannity and Maddow and put on a helmet.

LEMON: I don't worry about that. By the way, both those guys have been very mice to me. I don't look at them as competition, I look at them as colleagues.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I do, and it's a beat down every night.

LEMON: Yes. But they were happy. I think they are going to be happy when -- they asked me for a picture, they didn't ask you, I think they are going to -- those ladies will be happy when --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I wasn't there. What do you mean they didn't ask me? I wasn't there.

LEMON: No. They just said can you send us a picture, we don't want of Chris. CUOMO: Yes?

LEMON: But I think they are going to be happy with your Kellyanne Conway interview, because you didn't both sides, you put the shutdown --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: You are -- you are really --

LEMON: You put the shutdown right where --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Don't you be honest for a half second? You're lucky you are good lucking boy, because I got to tell you that's all you got going for you. What happened today? Who called who on the phone today and from where?

LEMON: I called you because honestly, I just -- because I -- to be fair to be honest.

CUOMO: Be nice.

LEMON: I know how you are a people person, people love you, but every person says that I love watching you and I love your friendship with Chris and the way you guys talk. And I said, well, let me see if I can get him, because I just thought that it would be something fun.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Because I'm not like you that puts my call to voice mail every time I call.

LEMON: Well, if I --

CUOMO: You call, I pick up every time.

LEMON: Yes. But when you call, I don't. I got stuff to do, Chris. I got a life and I got a show to do.

CUOMO: Two hours.

LEMON: See you. Nice job on "The View."

CUOMO: Two hours of primetime television.

LEMON: Stop disparaging me, OK?

CUOMO: I'm a big fan and it's not easy. I'll be watching you, though --

LEMON: See you. CUOMO: -- because your show is the best.

LEMON: Thank you. Yours as well. We got a lot to cover tonight. I'll see you soon. And trust me, everyone, we're going to get to Wilbur Ross. That was the most outrageous thing, that when I first saw it, I told my producers I can't believe this, and they were already on it. So, we got it for you, OK?

So, but I got to update you on some information first.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. Thanks for joining us.

You know, for a minute there, we thought maybe there was some progress on the shutdown. It doesn't look like it.

Sources telling CNN there will be no deal or breakthrough of any kind on any talks tonight. That is as the president threw a monkey wrench into the whole thing saying that he wants a pro-rated down payment on the wall.

What does that mean and how big would a pro-rated down payment have to be? Well, the House Speaker is Nancy Pelosi, and she says quote, "I don't think that he knows what he wants."

So here we are now, this is day 34 of the shutdown, and day 35 less than two hours away. That's the day that's important that 800,000 workers will miss another paycheck.

But Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross, here we go. He would have you believe that that's not such a big deal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILBUR ROSS, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF COMMERCE: You are talking about 800,000 workers, and while I feel sorry for the individuals that have hardship cases, 800,000 workers if they never got their pay which is not the case, they will eventually get it, but if they never got it, you are talking about a third of the percent on our GDP. So, it's not like it is a gigantic number overall.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I -- I don't even know what to say after that. Did you -- did you hear that? Can we play that again, please? Can we just play that again? OK. Play it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROSS: You are talking about 800,000 workers, and while I feel sorry for the individuals that have hardship cases, 800,000 workers if they never got their pay which is not the case, they will eventually get it. But if they never got it, you are talking about a third of the percent on our GDP. So, it's not like it is a gigantic number overall.

(END VIDEO CLIP) [22:10:00] LEMON: By the way, some contractors won't get paid just so you know. Can you believe that? That is the president's, President Trump, that's his commerce secretary who according to his financial disclosure forms is worth some $700 million. He says he feels sorry for those 800,000 people who haven't been paid, but it's not a gigantic number overall. Just a drop in the bucket.

Eight hundred thousand people with families to feed and bills to pay. Eight hundred thousand people who thought they had good reliable paychecks from their government jobs. Maybe you are one of them. How do you feel about him saying it's not a gigantic number, but it gets worse?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are reports that there are some federal workers who are going to homeless shelters to get food.

ROSS: Well, I know they are, and I don't really quite understand why, because as I mentioned before, the obligations that they would undertake say borrowing from a bank or a credit union are in effect federally guaranteed. So the 30 days of pay that some people will be out, there's no real reason why they shouldn't be able to get a loan against it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That is the most elite out of touch thing that I have ever heard in my life in all my years ever on this earth. That is the most insulting thing that I've ever heard, the most elite, elitist or however you want to put it thing that I have ever heard. I could not believe it.

I had to go back and I say I got to find this on the Internet. Is this true? Hey, you folks who aren't getting paid, just go take out a loan. Take out a loan.

And here is what he is saying, OK. Follow along with me, take out a loan for the money that you've earned, the money that we owe you, because we really have no idea when you are going to get paid even though a lot of you are still on the job. So, Yes, take out a loan. Pay interest. Just to get the money that we owe you.

And the commerce secretary may know where you can get a loan, because his department is the federal credit union is offering emergency loans at almost 9 percent interest, 9 percent. That is according to "The Washington Post." Secretary Ross later tried to clean up his tone-deaf comments, here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROSS: We're aware of painfully aware that there are hardships inflicted on the individual workers. All I was trying to do is to make sure that they are aware that there are possible other things that could help somewhat mitigate their problems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I'm not sure that he is as painfully aware of the hardships as those hundreds of thousands of unpaid workers are. And listen to this word salad from the president of the United States.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Perhaps you should have said it differently. Local people know who they are, and when they are going for the groceries and everything else, and I think what Wilbur is probably trying to say is that they will work along.

I know banks are working along if you have mortgages, the mortgagees, the mortgage and the folks collecting the interest and all of those things they work along. And that's what happens in time like this, they know the people they've been dealing with them for years. And they work along. The grocery store and I think that's probably what Wilbur Ross meant.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Right. Right on. Just go for the groceries and then tell them that they need to work along, whatever that means, and the same for the folks who are collecting interest and all those things. Just tell them work along. Don't worry, the president appreciates the great job that you are doing, especially those of you who he insists are totally in favor of shutting down the government to get his wall.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I love them. I respect them, I really appreciate the great job they are doing. They -- you know, many of those people that are not getting paid are totally in favor of what we are doing, because they know the future of this country is dependent on having a strong border especially a strong southern border.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:15:04] LEMON: So, the people who are sitting there tonight, you guys who are sitting in the comfort of your own homes and you're working and getting paid but I'm getting paid. Just think about it. Would you be OK with not getting your paycheck? Would you? Honestly? Probably not. But what you expect when you got cabinet full of billionaires. All of the best people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We are going to make America great again. We are going to use our best people.

I'm going to get the best people.

We are going to deliver. We are going to get the best people in the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: All the best people. The president is surrounded by them. And let's not forget all this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN HASSETT, CHAIRMAN, WHITE HOUSE COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS: Huge share of government workers were going to take vacation days, say between Christmas and New Year's, and then we have a shutdown and so they can't go to work, and so then they have the vacation, but they don't have to use their vacation days. And then they come back and then they get their backpay. Then they are in some sense they are better off.

LARA TRUMP, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S DAUGHTER-IN-LAW: Listen, this is not fair to you, and we all get that, but this is so much bigger than any one person. It is a little bit of pain, but it is going to be for the future of our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And let's not forget that this was all done on purpose and trumpeted, no pun intended, well, maybe a pun intended, trumpeted in advance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I am proud to shut down the government for border security, Chuck. I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: With all the shocking things happening during this shutdown the things we never thought we'd see in this country, this is disgraceful. The Coast Guard says it will not be able to provide death benefits to the families of any members who lose their lives defending this country.

Military retirees and their families won't get their checks either. And did you hear about this? You got to watch this. The normally low- key Colorado Democrat who lit into Senator Ted Cruz and his party over the shutdown, you got to watch this. Pay attention. Here is Senator Michael Bennet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MICHAEL BENNET, (D) COLORADO: These crocodile tears from the senator of Texas is crying for first responders are too hard for me to take. They are too hard for me to take. Because when you, when the senator from Texas shut this government down in 2013, my state was flooded. It was under water. People were killed. People's houses were destroyed. Their small businesses were ruined forever.

Which goes to my final point, how ludicrous it is that this government is shut down over a promise the president of the United States couldn't keep. And then America is not interested in having him keep. This idea that he was going to build a medieval wall across the southern border of Texas, take it from the farmers and ranchers that were there and have the Mexicans pay for it is a joke.

That's why we're here. Because he is now saying that taxpayers have to pay for it. That's not what he said during his campaign. Over and over and over and over again. He said that Mexico would pay for the wall, over and over again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: We are all with Senator Bennet right now, he is right. The president's demand for a wall is tying this country in nuts. It is the reason the government has been shut down for nearly 35 days. It is the reason that 800,000 people won't get paychecks tomorrow. All because of a promise the president made to his base, a minority.

Remember, Donald Trump lost the popular vote to Hillary Clinton by nearly 2.9 votes, almost three million votes. The majority didn't want Donald Trump, the majority don't want the wall. The majority don't want the shutdown.

And here we are in a mess. Day 34. All because of a campaign promise the majority don't want the president to keep.

[22:20:00] Congressman Harley Rouda is here. We'll dig into it next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Sources telling CNN there will be no deal or breakthrough of any kind on the shutdown tonight. That is the president says he wants a pro-rated payment on the wall as a condition to reopen the government.

Democratic Congressman Harley Rouda is here to discuss. Congressman, thank you so much. I appreciate you joining us this evening. I know that you guys have a lot on your plates right now. So, the president said today that he would reopen the government if there was a pro- rated down payment on a wall. Are you interested in giving him a down payment on the wall?

REP. HARLEY ROUDA, (D) CALIFORNIA: No, I'm not. I'm interested in reopening the government. The government is closed on false pretenses, Don, when you get right down to it.

You know, the president said the primary reasons for taking the action he took was one, because of the immigration at the southern border. The reality is, since the year 2000, we have reduced immigration at the southern border by 80 percent from 1.6 million down to 300,000.

LEMON: The numbers are going the other way, right? They are going down.

ROUDA: Yes, exactly. They continue to go down. He said it was to interdict drugs and stop the drugs from coming over the border. The reality there is that 85 percent of the drugs come into our country from ports, not the border. And the third reason he said was to stop terrorists from coming into

our country, and the reality there is far different from what they have tried to sell us.

Approximately 4,000 people, just under 4,000 people have been stopped coming into the country who have arguably ties to terrorist organizations.

LEMON: Yes.

[22:25:03] ROUDA: And most of those actually all but 47 of them were at airports and foreign countries where individuals were trying to board airplanes to come here. The remaining 47, six of them were from the Mexican border and 41 were from the Canadian border. And I would hope that the president isn't going to suggest that we need a wall on the Canadian border.

LEMON: I just want to get to this before I get to what Nancy Pelosi said about the shutdown. When this president talks about and his supporters talk about building more wall, and building fences, that had already been appropriated during the Obama administration and during the Bush administration, that they were building barriers on the southern border as is, and actually renovating them already.

So then, I don't, can you explain to our viewers, like so, what is this administration talking about? Wasn't that already in the works and being done and money had been appropriated for it in large part?

ROUDA: Yes. And it's unexplainable what he is doing for the variety of reasons. This narrative that Democrats want open borders is the furthest from the truth. We got to go back 2013 there was bipartisan support in the Senate. two to one bipartisan support with virtually every Democratic senator supporting comprehensive immigration reform that included $46 billion for border and port security.

That got shot down in the House of Representatives by the Republicans. So, we are committed to border and port security, but we're not committed to or will support a wall down the middle of the Rio Grande.

LEMON: So, the speaker, the house speaker said again, when she was asked about the negotiation, stay tuned. Is there a deal in the works? Do you know?

ROUDA: You know, I think the feelings for Democrats all along is that you cannot allow somebody to have a temper tantrum over getting their way and shutting down the government over that. And when you are look at the impact to not just the 800,000 federal workers but there's contractors out there, too, that are tied to these government jobs. So, the depth and the breadth and the misery --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: And they may never get paid.

ROUDA: That's exactly right. So that is such a good point, Don. And we, I don't know how we are going to be able to fix that. Is there a deal in the works? I don't know. But I do know the best thing the president could do is open up the government for business.

LEMON: I have so much to ask you. Let's see which one do I want to ask you. You were just appointed to the House oversight committee, right, along with a number of prominent freshmen -- freshmen congressmen. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Ayanna Pressley, just to name a few of them. And your election was partly in backlash to this president. Right? Do you feel pressure to hold this administration to account?

ROUDA: Well, I think that's our job under the oversight committee is to make sure that we do what we are elected to do and exercise our obligations under article one of the Constitution. And if there is activity that is taking place by president, cabinet members and otherwise that need to be investigated then we are prepared to do just that.

LEMON: Congressman Rouda, thank you. I appreciate your time. Please come back.

ROUDA: Hey, thanks, Don. I appreciate it.

LEMON: Thank you.

The president and a lot of people surrounding him, well, they can't seem to connect with the pain that furloughed federal workers are feeling. Is this cabinet of billionaires out of touch with the average American?

[22:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Tomorrow, 800,000 Americans, 800,000, will miss their second paycheck. They are struggling to pay bills, pay the rent, and take care of their families. But the Trump administration -- and remember the cabinet billionaires doesn't seem to get it, the Commerce Secretary, Wilbur Ross.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Secretary, there are reports that there are some federal workers who are going to homeless shelters to get food.

WILBUR ROSS, U.S. COMMERCE SECRETARY: Well, I know they are. And I don't really quite understand why because, as I mentioned before, the obligations that they would undertake, say borrowing from a bank or credit union are in fact federally guaranteed. So the 30 days of pay that some people will be out is no real reason why they should not be able to get a loan against it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Clueless. Just get a loan. Does he know what that takes, the time, the paperwork, the fees, the credit score, and what are you going to tell them? They're going to say, how are you going to pay back this loan, Mr. Johnson? When are you going to get paid again? Well, I don't know. Well, and how many people would be OK with paying interest on money that is owed to them. And speaking of interest, the Commerce Department's Federal Credit

Union is charging furloughed workers almost nine percent interest on emergency loans to cover their missing paychecks, almost 9 percent.

Frank Bruni, Catherine Rampell, both here. Hello. This is the most elitist thing that I have ever heard. I am serious.

FRANK BRUNI, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yeah. But it is in a long sequence of them from this administration. I mean, in a way, don't you feel like we have been building up to this moment? You know, as I said to you earlier, it is a clarifying moment because this more than anything I think shows the incalculable distance between Trump cabinet members economically and everyone else.

This more than anything else shows the empathy deficit. But there are many moments that came before this. There's the behavior of Louise Linton, Steve Mnuchin's wife. And remember when she was advertising that she was wearing Hermes and Valentino, and that unbelievable picture of her with a glove tan caressing her freshly minted sheet of dollar bills, as if it is the most beautiful thing she had ever seen.

I mean there is an iconography of this administration that is all about that sort of elitism, Don.

LEMON: You have a similar take on this because you said, you know, when he talked about this, when he bragged about having a cabinet of billionaires. This was a foreseeable consequence.

CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, absolutely. When Trump first came into office, he was so proud to have all of these out of touch billionaires surrounding him advising him on policy. But look, this is what happens, personnel is policy. When you have a team of grifters and out of touch billionaires running the country, you end up with a shutdown with no foreseeable end in sight.

Because this team of buffoons and out of touch rich people didn't come in with an exit strategy and think it is no big deal to layoff 800,000 people, you know? They can just get a bridge loan. They think putting food on the table is the same thing as securing money from like a private equity firm or something.

[22:35:00] BRUNI: They have no idea how real people live. And, you know, we got all worked up, and, you know, maybe rightly so about George H.W. Bush not being familiar with a grocery scanner.

LEMON: Right.

BRUNI: That looks positively cornpone (ph) in comparison to Wilbur Ross' statement. I mean really one becomes almost nostalgic for that. That seems in touch compared to this.

LEMON: What do you think about -- I mean maybe I'm wrong. Some of them have -- when you think about, you know -- I just went through the airport. I know that members of Congress and there are other people who fly. You guys fly. They fly commercial. You go through. You're checked. You're scanned by the TSA and on and on. When do you think the last time that Wilbur Ross or -- I don't know, a Mnuchin or a Trump has gone through security to fly commercially to deal with that, and not have to be concerned or have to be concerned about their safety in the skies?

RAMPELL: Well, probably more cabinet members these days are having to fly commercial because there have been so many scandals, but I wouldn't put it past them to still catch a ride on the private jet when they can. But it is not so much that they are worried about how is this going to inconvenience them with air travel they just -- they can't empathize with people who are living paycheck to paycheck, some of whom will not get backpay.

You know, this is the thing that was left out of this Wilbur Ross interview. Some of those people will get backpay. We don't know when.

LEMON: Yeah.

RAMPELL: In theory, they will at some point. But there are like a million federal -- excuse me -- federal contract workers who won't be getting backpay.

LEMON: Yeah.

RAMPELL: And like 300,000 of those earn less than $15 an hour.

LEMON: I want you guys to hear from one of them now, but I just want to say no one is hating on people for making money or being a billionaire.

BRUNI: No.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: If you make money and you become a billionaire that is part of the American dream. You can do that. But when you are a government employee, you should at least be relatable and be able to empathize with people who may not be in your particular position.

RAMPELL: Or at least do the research, maybe.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Right. Exactly.

RAMPELL: Like maybe you can't emotionally connect with these people because you don't have to think about whether Safeway is going to like let you buy some bananas on credit, but at least figure out if Safeway --

LEMON: Can I just play this before we go --

(CROSSTALK)

BRUNI: For those words to come out of Wilbur Ross' mouth, it means he has never paused for a moment and said, maybe by dent of having hundreds of millions of dollars, some of it controversially acquired, maybe by dent of that I don't understand what these workers are -- it never occurred to him to pause and ask himself about the limits of his own understanding, and thus those words were not only thought in his brain, but unbelievably came out of his mouth.

LEMON: These are the people the secretary is talking about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many of you are running out of money? Raise your hand, all of you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't know how I'm going to pay the $250 a month for his medication.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am about to be evicted.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am about to lose my car. My car is two months behind. I am about to lose my Medicaid, my car insurance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The worst case scenario we lose our home. I will be evicted. And I will have to go stay with friends or family or something. That is the worst case. And that is next month. And negotiate with my chemo that has to happen. So this chemo or the rent, chemo wins.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Chemo or the rent.

BRUNI: That sort of journalism is an act of empathy, and you used that word before, and I'm really glad you used it. Empathy is exactly what is lacking right now because it seems that Donald Trump and the people closest to him are incapable of it.

LEMON: Yeah.

RAMPELL: I think also that this is not new to his presidency. He spent his whole career stiffing workers and stiffing contractors. So this is a piece with how he has lived his life. It is not just about his politics.

LEMON: Thank you, both. I appreciate it. Is it safe to fly during the shutdown? We're going to bring you the warnings you need to hear from federal worker whose job is to keep the skies safe even when they are not getting paid.

[22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: OK. Sit down and take a listen to this because I think you're going to learn and you're also going to want to hear from my next guests. So there are federal employees, who are working to keep the skies safe, and they have been working without pay for over a month now. The real question -- this is a serious question, is it safe to fly? Well, the FAA, in a statement today, said that the skies are in fact safe. That is what they said. That is comforting. But the people who are on the ground or in the sky keeping you safe warn that safety is compromised because of the shutdown. The president of the Air Traffic Controllers Union says the shutdown is causing routine mistakes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL RINALDI, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS ASSOCIATION PRESIDENT: The biggest toll I have right now is the human toll, the fatigue in my work environment right now, where I am seeing routine mistakes are actually happening because they are thinking about which credit cards can I consolidate up for zero interest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Mistakes and planes, two things that should not mix, ever. Representatives of Air Traffic Controllers say workers are struggling to maintain the system of keeping the skies safe by working overtime at the country's busiest airports, OK? And on top of that, staffing is at a 30-year low, and up to 20 percent of staff is eligible to retire.

So, of the already limited number of Air Traffic Controllers on the job, one in five can just stop working if they don't want to do it for free. And then there is the TSA, the screeners, ensuring anyone or anything getting into a plane is safe. Well, today, the TSA says that people are calling out at double the usual rate. They say 7.5 percent of workers didn't show up yesterday.

According to them, those workers are calling out because of financial limitations. CNN's affiliate in Hawaii is reporting that airport screeners are just turning in their resignations, or as screeners are staying in their jobs, some are living in their cars. It is true.

[22:45:00] One of them whose car you see there on the screen, living in a parking lot because he cannot afford gas for the daily commute. And that is where we are.

And let's discuss now. Jim Marinitti with the Air Traffic Controllers Union is here. Point blank, are we less safe flying? By the way, welcome, good evening. Are we safe?

JIM MARINITTI, SOUTHERN REGION VICE PRESIDENT, NATIONAL AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS ASSOCIATION: Thank you very much for letting me join on. It's -- safety is degrading the longer that this shutdown takes place. The government has intentionally harmed the civil servants who are responsible for keeping the skies safe.

LEMON: How is it degrading?

MARINITTI: They have caused a crisis that did not exist a month ago. The safety professionals, the support specialists, quality assurance, technicians that used to be there to support the Air Traffic Controllers on the front lines, they're not there anymore. They're considered non essential, but they're very essential to the Air Traffic Controllers who are the only thread holding the national air space system together right now.

And we are proud of what we do. We're going to continue maintaining the safety at the highest levels. We are the gold standard for aviation safety around the world.

LEMON: What is at stake here?

MARINITTI: Well, what is at stake here is the fact that efficiency is going to suffer, unfortunately. We have controllers now who are suffering on a personal level.

LEMON: Some of them are driving Ubers?

MARINITTI: Yes.

LEMON: They're waiting tables between their 10-hour shifts.

MARINITTI: Controllers getting second jobs, Uber's. We have people that are even calling in to say I can't come to work. I need to pay for food for the family, medical issues, or the gas to get to work. I have to make a decision. This is not something you put on the backs of people who are responsible for keeping the skies safe.

And if you are -- one thing, 50,000 airplanes a day fly in this country, 50,000. We are expected to be 100 percent correct. In most professions, if you're 99.9 percent, you think, wow, you are pretty efficient. In our job, that would mean 50 airplanes a day falling out of the sky.

LEMON: So let me put up this. This is a live shot. It's a flight aware -- it tracks air traffic live right now all around this country. And it shows how much Air Traffic Controllers are responsible for.

MARINITTI: Yes.

LEMON: Talk to us about -- look at that. That's our skies right now.

MARINITTI: Yes.

LEMON: The stress that they are under.

MARINITTI: Yes. It is the largest, safest, most efficient, and the most complex air space in the world. And the fact that -- there is a sign you played it last week for somebody that was up here, that it is illegal -- it is a federal offense for anyone to interfere with the operation of one of these facilities for the people responsible for those airplanes.

The government has been interfering with us for the past 34 days. The government is making the skies less safe, not the controllers.

LEMON: Put that -- can we just put that up full screen. Look at that, people at home. This is over the country we are living at now. We're broadcasting. Look at all of the -- you said there is no room for error.

MARINITTI: Zero room for error. Most professions, 99.9 percent efficiency would be a fantastic goal, you'll get a raise. As an Air Traffic Controller, 99.9 percent means one 1 day, with 50,000 airplanes in the sky, we would lose 50 airplanes everyday. That is unacceptable to us. We are expected to be 100 percent every single day.

LEMON: And the people with that awesome responsibility are going without pay. They're going without support staff. They're going without.

MARINITTI: On a regular day, it is an enormous stress that we have. The fact that we make the extraordinary look mundane everyday is why the public is somewhat unaware of it. But now we are trying to show people behind the curtain what is taking place. That's why we're doing this --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: That's the sound (ph) everyday.

MARINITTI: Seventy five airports over the past week and a half. We're passing out these leaflets to get the public involved and let them know what's happening in those facilities.

LEMON: Yeah. There it is right there. End the government shutdown immediately.

MARINITTI: Immediately. And --

LEMON: Go on.

MARINITTI: The personal toll that this is taking out in the Air Traffic Controller, single mother in Orlando, two kids, taking care of her disabled brother.

One other example Atlanta, a female controller named Kirsten, until 18 months ago loved her job, was doing great as an Air Traffic Controller diagnosed with breast cancer, chemotherapy, three surgeries, today, she's having to make a consideration of whether she should stop treatment or not, because she can't afford the payments with no check. That is unacceptable. That is not how the government should be treating its workers.

LEMON: We have got to do better.

MARINITTI: Don, thank you very much.

LEMON: Thank you for coming. Good luck. Please come back.

MARINITTI: I will.

LEMON: Well, the former secretary of state, offering his immediate resignation after pictures of him in Blackface surfaced. And wait until you hear the rest of the story, that's next. [22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Florida's Secretary of State, Michael Ertel, resigned today after pictures emerged of him wearing Blackface at a Halloween party over a decade ago. But believe it or not, this story gets even worse.

Ertel was in Blackface because he was dressed up as a Hurricane Katrina victim. The Tennessee Democrat Newspaper -- Tallahassee -- excuse me -- Democrat Newspaper published these photos from 2005 just months after Katrina.

Ertel was the Seminole County Supervisor at the time. He had a thing on that said Hurricane Katrina victim. Hurricane Katrina was one of the deadliest hurricanes to ever hit the U.S. Over 1,800 people died. Millions were left homeless.

[22:55:00] It is unfathomable to think that anyone, let alone a public servant, would ever mock Katrina victims or dress in Blackface. I wish I could say that I am surprised by this blatant racism, but I am not.

Michael Ertel was appointed by Florida Governor Ron DeSantis in December. DeSantis ran for Governor against Tallahassee Mayor, Andrew Gillum, an African-American, and said that Florida voters shouldn't monkey this up by supporting Gillum.

DeSantis was also criticized for previously attending conferences organized by an activist who has said that black people owe their freedom to white people. But he did denounce an out of state neo-Nazi group that supported distributed racist robocalls against Gillum. Here is what Andrew Gillum had to say about DeSantis' ties to racists at the debate in October.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW GILLUM, FORMER TALLAHASSEE MAYOR: Let me first say my grandmother used to say a hit dog will holler. And it hollered through this room. Mr. DeSantis has spoken. First of all, he has got neo-Nazis helping him out in this state. He has spoken at racist conferences. He has accepted a contribution and would not return it from someone who referred to the former president of the United States as a Muslim n-i-g-g-e-r.

When asked to return, he said no. He's using that money to now fund negative ads. Now, I am not calling Mr. DeSantis a racist. I am simply saying the racists believe he is a racist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: But despite all of that, DeSantis won the race. And it's important to note DeSantis never actually condemned Ertel for dressing as a Blackface and as a Katrina victim. He called the situation unfortunate, and said he accepted Ertel's resignation because he didn't want to get mired inside controversies. As I have said before, a lot of people didn't like it.

It has never been acceptable to wear Blackface. I stand by that. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)