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Don Lemon Tonight

2020 Presidential Run; White House Says President Trump Is Innocent; Mueller Probe 'Close To Being Completed'; Federal Judge In Virginia Cancels Manafort's February 8th Sentencing. Aired 11-12a ET

Aired January 28, 2019 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[23:00:00] (CNN TOWN HALL)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

You just heard from 2020 candidate Senator Kamala Harris at our CNN Town Hall. And as you can see there, she is shaking hands with the folks who came out to see her in Iowa, very interesting town hall tonight.

We are going to be joined by our David Chalian in just moments here to talk to us about this and take us through some of what you saw and what heard this evening. Well over an hour of questions from audience members by the California senator who has a legal background, was once a prosecutor, answering questions in a very prosecutorial way, very thought out.

It seemed to be very prepared with information and knowledge on all of the subjects that she tackled and questions that she had this evening. But again, it's very early on. This is one of many town halls that will happen over the course of the next year or so, and longer, really almost two years.

David Chalian, let's bring you in now. Good evening, David. Interesting, how did she do?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, clearly the folks in the room here enjoyed a lot of the things she had to say. I guess that would be expected. These were folks who tell us that they want to participate in the Democratic caucuses here.

But I think what the key thing she did here was sort of introduced herself to America, Don. Remember, a lot of folks don't know who Kamala Harris is. If you're paying attention, you do. So, this was an introductory session for her. And I think she, you know, accomplished a couple of things.

I think she addressed some of the criticisms that she gets from the left on her prosecutorial career and she took that head on. But I also think she was able to sort of tell her story which is not a story widely known yet.

LEMON: Let's take a look at some moments, and we'll play some of the sound from it, OK, and you and I will discuss. Here's the first one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D), CALIFORNIA: Racism is real in America. Sexism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, transphobia. These things exist in America, and we have to speak truth that they do so that we can deal with them. But we have seen in the last two years that there has been new fuel that is lighting that fire in a way that has been harmful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: David, I thought it was interesting that was the first question she took on that matter. That fuel she's talking about, without naming him, is obviously the president of the United States.

CHALIAN: No doubt about it, Don. She was drawing contrasts quite clearly. And one other contrast she drew with him was saying that she would be speaking with integrity, and she thinks that in and of itself is how a leader should conduct him or herself, and that that would be a clear contrast with how she sees President Trump conducting himself.

But I think you're right to note that just like yesterday in Oakland, in her big speech, she doesn't have to call the president by name. She clearly can identify what she sees as some of his ills on society during his tenure in office here. And call that out without making it personal to the president.

[23:10:04] LEMON: Just to double check she didn't use his name at all tonight, she just said the president, correct? Not that I can recall --

(CROSSTALK)

CHALIAN: Yes, I don't recall during her -- I didn't hear her using his name.

LEMON: Yes, I don't recall her using his name at all. So, let's -- I also thought it was interesting because this is something that has been out there, people have been saying the next person the Democrats have to nominate has got to be a man or a white male, right, a white male or just a man -- I imagine of any ethnicity. She took that head on. Let's play that. We don't have it? We don't have it. What did you think of her answer?

CHALIAN: Yes, she was asked directly by a man, a white male here in Iowa, saying folks tell me this all the time, that it's got to be a man that takes on Donald Trump. Can you please tell me what to say to them?

And her answer to this Iowan tonight was, the first thing I would tell those people when they say it to you is have more faith in the American voters. They're not as stupid as you may think they are, that they're smarter when they make the choices for president, and they take it really seriously.

So, she kind of dismissed the notion that just picking on gender is the way to go here, and that she credits the American people with being wiser than that. She doesn't think that's fundamentally how they -- how they would choose it.

But you know that that is a debate inside the party, and you know that the Democratic Party, you saw what happened in 2018 in these midterms. It was -- it was female candidates and female voters that were critical to sort of powering that 40-House pickup that delivered the House majority to the Democrats.

And you already see in the race of the people that have gotten into this 2020 race, Don, already --

LEMON: Yes.

CHALIAN: -- white men are the minority.

LEMON: Yes.

CHALIAN: I mean, you have -- you've got four women already in the race. You've got people of color. It is -- it is not your sort of father's Democratic Party in many ways.

LEMON: Yes. Interesting. I just wonder if -- was electability do you think the biggest issue, or were there other issues do you think that were just as important that came up?

CHALIAN: Well, there's no doubt that -- and we saw this in our poll with the Des Moines Register in December. Among Iowa Democratic caucus-goers, the notion of being able to beat Trump is more important to most of the Democrats here than being aligned on all of the issues with the candidate.

LEMON: Right.

CHALIAN: That is what Iowa Democrats told us in the poll. But, some very clear and important issues came up here. One that I think is going to come back, what she said tonight when she was asked about Medicare for all.

LEMON: Right.

CHALIAN: Now, you know she has signed on as a co-sponsor to Bernie Sanders' bill, a potential opponent in this race, as of many of the other Democrats running. And she was asked specifically about whether or not that, you know, that bill means that private insurance companies would be -- would be a thing of the past.

LEMON: Right.

CHALIAN: And she said, yes, absolutely. There will be no -- we don't need that anymore. We're not going to need private insurance companies. That, I just want you to understand the speed with which the Democratic Party has moved in just four years. You would never have heard the Democratic nominee in 2016, Hillary Clinton, say that.

And here we are, you know, three years later from that, and Kamala Harris, one of the big contenders for the nomination, is just saying do away with private insurance and embrace socialized medicine.

LEMON: Yes. And two things -- on the subject of electability, right, Democrats are upset because of Howard Schultz who is considering running for president as a centrist independent. They don't like that at all. He got heckled tonight. We don't need to play it.

But this is -- this is important to Democrats. You said they want someone who can beat Donald Trump. And if you're going to run, run as a Democrat. Don't run as an independent because they think an independent will take votes away from him.

CHALIAN: Yes, that's what a lot of Democrats are telling Howard Schultz. Of course, he is, you know, I think he sees a much harder path for himself getting the Democratic nomination which is why he may be seeking a different way to do this.

But he is inviting the wrath of Democrats, Democratic professional operatives, politicians, potential opponents. You heard Julian Castro yesterday on CNN talk about this. This is really scaring Democrats because they think Schultz as an independent in -- trying to run as a centrist inevitably splits the anti-Trump -- the anti-incumbent vote that's out there and perhaps delivers a more viable path for Donald Trump to be re-elected. That's their concern.

LEMON: Yes. Bloomberg is also saying the same thing, that don't do it, right. Also, Maggie Haberman is reporting tonight that Trump told a crowd -- he was trying to really egg Schultz on. Because he wants him in the race because he thinks it's going to help Trump.

CHALIAN: Yes. I'm not sure that that is going to necessarily help Howard Schultz in this bid if Donald Trump is his biggest supporter to get in the race. I mean, I think that will also sort of keep the ire of Democrats alive right now.

Listen, Howard Schultz said he's thinking about this seriously. He's going to be on a three-month book tour. I believe he was in New York City tonight, so that's not a place that a centrist Democrat independent is going to find as much support, as sort of liberal bastion, you know.

[23:15:07] LEMON: Yes.

CHALIAN: So, I don't -- I don't think that was necessarily the right venue on this day of rolling out the centrist campaign. But we'll see. He said, Schultz said tonight that he's going to look at this and a hard look, and that, you know, if there is a groundswell, that wasn't his word, it's mine, but if there's a real sense of energy around this as a real movement, then it may be something he moves forward with. But, Don, if that isn't there, you know, Schultz may decide not to do this.

LEMON: Yes. Well, to be called what he was called, you know, I think it was an entitled billionaire b word, you know, to that, something to that effect. It's an interesting thing in your outing, before you decide to run for president, if you're just thinking about it. I got to -- one more thing quickly here that I'd like to talk to you

about. You said that Medicare, you think that was going to come back not necessarily -- I'm not -- I don't want to put words into your mouth, to haunt her, but she's going to have to talk about that, that Republicans will probably pick up on.

Also, I think something that she's going to have to explain and will get lots of attention, she said no money for a border wall. She doesn't believe in the border wall. There are better ways. She's not on board with that.

CHALIAN: And she was saying that right to a DACA recipient. A young woman here who is a DACA recipient is saying she was tired of being, sort of a bargaining chip in these negotiations. But when asked if indeed she would be willing to provide more permanent protections or a path to citizenship as part of a deal here to that DACA recipient, would she be for some wall for the money, and you're right. She just ruled it out. She said no. No wall for the money. She wants to work --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Money for the wall. Or wall for the money, either way.

CHALIAN: -- separately to protect the DACA recipients. Yes. Sorry, sorry, yes. But no -- no money for a wall. She was crystal clear about that in her position.

LEMON: Yes. David, thank you very much. I appreciate your reporting for us at the top of the hour. Thank you.

CHALIAN: Thanks a lot, Don.

LEMON: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

I want to talk now about Russia because there's a lot going on tonight. This is a clearly what we call when it rains it pours moment in the investigation.

We're learning tonight that Robert Mueller still wants witness testimony for a federal grand jury. A sign that there may be more indictments to come. We're going to have more on that in just a moment.

There's also the acting attorney general, Matthew Whitaker, stirring up a storm with his comments today on Robert Mueller's work including when and if his report will see the light of day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW WHITAKER, ACTING U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I am comfortable that the decisions that were made are going to be reviewed, you know, either through the various means we have, but right now, the investigation is I think close to being completed. And I hope that we can get the report from director Mueller as soon as possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: OK. Whatever. But that sounds an awful lot like a message from the acting attorney general to the special counsel. I've got my eye on you.

And that definitely has not escaped the attention of Democrats. Senator Chris Coons calling it chilling. Senator Dianne Feinstein saying Whitaker, quote, "should not be a censor."

And then there is the president's former fixer and keeper of secrets, Michael Cohen, agreeing to testify behind closed doors before the House intel committee next week. Despite what he called ongoing threats against his family from the president and Rudy Giuliani.

And listen to Sarah Sanders. Listen to her dodging questions today in the first White House press conference in 41 days. Were there any conversations about a pardon for dirty trickster and Trump ally Roger Stone?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARAH HUCKABEE-SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I'm not aware of that. Haven't had any conversations regarding that matter. I'm not aware of any conversation even regarding that or a need for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Can she guarantee that the president wouldn't pardon Stone?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: I'm not going to talk about hypothetical that's are just ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Did you hear a denial there? Me neither. And I'll bet Roger Stone didn't either. And then she shifted to playing the blame game. Let's listen to this riff on WikiLeaks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: I think every single outlet that are that you all represent looked for and searched for information that WikiLeaks was provided, including reporting on it. So, I think there's a responsibility by members of the media.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Blaming reporters for asking questions about WikiLeaks. That is doing their jobs. Let's not forget it was Donald Trump himself who said this during the campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Sarah Sanders would like you to believe that none of this has anything to do with the president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[23:19:55] JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Roger Stone last week, Paul Manafort, Michael Cohen, Michael Flynn, are you concerned, is the president concerned that as more and more of his associates, former aides, are brought into this investigation, are indicted, plead guilty in this investigation, that this presidency is in danger?

SANDERS: Not at all. In fact, I think nothing could be further from the truth. The more that this goes on, the more and more we see that none of these things have anything to do with the president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Nothing to see here, nothing to do with the president, except for the fact that 37 people and entities have been charged by special counsel Robert Mueller. The list includes six Trump associate including Michael Cohen, Michael Flynn, Rick Gates, Paul Manafort, George Papadopoulos, and Roger Stone most recently, each of them part of team Trump.

Like I said, when it rains, it pours. And the storm clouds from the Russia investigation are getting darker. The acting A.G. or the A.G., Matthew Whitaker, says he had been fully briefed on the Mueller investigation. What does he know and who has he been sharing that, who's he even sharing that information with? We'll get into that next.

[23:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We're back with some developing news. There are signs tonight that Robert Mueller may have another indictment up his sleeve.

Shimon Prokupecz joins me now.

Shimon, good evening to you. It's very interesting because CNN is getting this new information tonight that more Mueller indictments could be coming. What do you know?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes, this has to do with a former aide to Roger Stone. Andrew Miller is his name. He's been fighting a subpoena from the Mueller team, from the special counsel's team. He and his lawyers have been litigating this. They do not want to testify, they do not want him testifying before the grand jury. And the Mueller team says well, we still want you despite, you know, what we may have heard today.

Despite the fact that Roger Stone was indicted on Friday, they still want him to appear before the grand jury which could mean that there could be additional charges against Roger Stone at some point. It would seem that the reason they're interested in this guys, Andrew

Miller is because of Roger Stone. He worked for him. They've had some questions for him about Roger Stone. So, we could be seeing additional charges against Roger Stone.

LEMON: Let's get now to the acting A.G., Matthew Whitaker, saying that Mueller is close to being finished with his investigation. Does he really know that, a, and b, is that what you're hearing from sources?

PROKUPECZ: I mean, he should know that, Don, because he said he's been briefed, fully briefed on the investigations. So, you would expect at this point that he would know the status of the investigation.

It certainly seems from everything we know and certainly our team here, folks that we've talking to and some of the activity that we've been seeing that this is winding down, that things are coming to an end.

Certainly, the Roger Stone indictment on Friday partially signals that. That was something we have all been waiting for because a lot of it's been in the news. A lot of people have come before the grand jury, and the Mueller team has talked to a lot of people associated with Roger Stone.

So that was a big one. And it just would seem with all the cooperation now coming to an end people that the special counsel has said are ready to be sentenced, Michael Flynn and others, you had the Michael Cohen situation. So, it would seem certainly that it goes along with a lot of what we're seeing and also certainly a lot of what we're -- of what people are telling us that this is coming to an end.

LEMON: OK. But how rare is it for the Department of Justice to make an announcement like this, Shimon?

PROKUPECZ: So, this was stunning, Don, honestly. You know, we were all sitting and were watching the press conference. And you know, all of us that have been covering this investigation now for two years, to hear someone from the Department of Justice give an update sort of on where things stand in this investigation, it just does not happen, especially given the sensitivity with this investigation, with Russia, with all of the elements of this investigation.

To hear this from someone, from the Department of Justice, the acting attorney general, to make those comments, we certainly did not expect it. I think people around Whitaker did not expect him to say that.

Look, a lot of people there know that things are winding down. But certainly, to have him appear before cameras on a totally separate issue, nothing to do with Russia, he was at a press conference talking about something completely different, he took a question. And certainly, it seems that he stepped in it. He went in a direction that he shouldn't have.

LEMON: Thank you, Shimon. I appreciate your reporting. Joining me now is Mr. Max Boot, he is the author of "Corrosion of

Conservatism: Why I Left the Right." Also, Mr. Stephen Moore, a former senior economic adviser to the Trump campaign.

Gentlemen, good evening to you. Thanks for joining us.

STEPHEN MOORE, FORMER SENIOR ECONOMIC ADVISER TO TRUMP CAMPAIGN: Hi, Don.

LEMON: It's been an interesting night. Watching Kamala Harris also as it relates to the Russia investigation. Let's -- Max, let's pick up on what I was talking about with Shimon there, the acting A.G. saying that Mueller is almost finished. What's your take on that one?

MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, it strikes me, Don, it's improper for the acting attorney general to say that, even if it's true. He should not be commenting on an ongoing investigation. And you do wonder if he's trying to put pressure on Mueller to close up shop.

But if he is right, Mueller would be finishing in record speed here. Because remember, the Whitewater investigation which had far less underlying material to work with took six years. The Iran-Contra investigation took something like eight years.

Mueller has been on the case for fewer than two years, and he's already gotten impressive results with 37 indictments, eight convictions. He's already achieved an awful lot. But for such a complex white-collar, criminal and counterintelligence investigation to be concluded in fewer than two years, that's very, very fast time.

[23:29:55] But clearly, as we're also hearing that there is still more to be done, and we should not confuse the notion that Mueller is winding up with the spin that the Trump administration is going to put on it, that he's about to give them a clean bill of health, that's an entirely different matter.

LEMON: You want this -- Stephen, you want this report to become public. You say the Trump administration should want it as well, and the taxpayers because we paid millions for this. Everyone did, right?

MOORE: Sure. First of all, with respect to what Max is saying, maybe it's only been two years, it feels like it's been six years. And it's time -- you know, I think a lot of people think it's time to bring this investigation to a close. It's been two years and by now, Mueller should have been able to find what he has on Donald Trump.

I say hallelujah to the idea that we're finally going to be able to see what Mueller has got. I've been saying in your show for I think for nine months, you know, show us what you have to end the speculation.

And yes, I think once that report comes out, you know, it should be in due time, release to the American public so -- and by the way, this is going to be decided, you know. The importance of these allegations are going to be decided by the voters in November of 2020. That's what, I think, the proper way to adjudicate this. BOOT: I agree with you, Stephen, that it is important for the report to be released, but it's not clear that it will be because of the comments of Bill Barr, who is likely to be confirmed as the next attorney general, saying if there is private information in there, decisions not to prosecute, they may not release that.

That's why I think it's very important that Senator Chuck Grassley and Senator Richard Blumenthal introduced legislation to ensure that the report actually is made public, and I would hope that Congress would pass that.

MOORE: I'm fine with that.

LEMON: What are the chances though that the bill that he's talking about, that Mitch McConnell will bring that up for a vote?

MOORE: I don't know.

(LAUGHTER)

BOOT: Zero. Zero. It's not going to happen.

MOORE: It's a question of, you know, how long it would be from the time the report is shown to Congress to the time they release it. But eventually, that will come out, and the public will see these allegations and they will make their decision on it.

LEMON: Just quickly, and I don't mean to be snarky, did you see the Whitaker press conference today?

BOOT: Yeah.

LEMON: He was sweating bullets and honestly, many of the things he said were incomprehensible. I couldn't comprehend them. Incomprehensible. Am I wrong? What did he mean? I had no idea what he meant.

BOOT: This is a reminder. This guy is not remotely qualified to be attorney general of the United States.

LEMON: But he's on television a lot before, during the campaign. That's how the president noticed him. That was his strategy, to get on TV and --

BOOT: Yeah, I mean, I think this is why a lot of people are desperate for Bill Barr to be confirmed because there are questions about Bill Barr, but there's no question that he has the qualifications to be attorney general and Whitaker does not.

MOORE: I agree with that, too.

LEMON: OK, good. I'm glad you guys agree. I want you to take a listen. This is an exchange between CNN's Jim Acosta and White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Is the president concerned that as more and more of his associates, former aides, are brought in to this investigation, are indicted, plead guilty in this investigation, that his presidency is in danger?

SARAH HUCKABEEN SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Not at all. In fact, I think nothing could be further from the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: She said that the president's presidency is not in danger and that Mueller has put -- Mueller has already charged six Trump associates. According to Mueller's indictment, this went very high up. Should the -- is she downplaying it? Do you think --

MOORE: Look, I don't know what Mueller has got, so I can't talk about the severity of these charges that are going to be made. But I will say this, you know, I'm an economist, so I will say that -- you've got a really strong economy right now.

You've got people feeling good about -- people aren't talking, by the way, outside of Washington, D.C. and CNN Newsroom about the Mueller investigation. People are talking about immigration issue. They are talking about the wall. They are talking about --

LEMON: We probably talk less in the CNN newsroom about the Mueller investigator --

(LAUGHTER)

MOORE: You talk a lot about it. My point is that I think Americans -- you know, it is going to be about the economy. It is going to be about the China trade deal. It is going to be about immigration reform. It is going to be about infrastructure bill.

And I think Democrats who -- I'm not talking about CNN and the media, I'm really about Democrats in Congress, if their whole agenda is just to investigate, investigate, investigate, and they don't have any positive agenda for creating jobs and issues that Americans care about, controlling the border, I think they're in big trouble.

BOOT: But I think that's clearly not the case because if you listened to the Kamala Harris town hall tonight, for example, she never once even mentioned the word "Trump." She's clearly focused on other stuff. But I think that what's going on here is incredibly important.

I mean, let's remember and think about how Republicans would be reacting if this were President Hillary Clinton and her national security manager, her campaign manager, deputy campaign manager, personal lawyer, were all convicted of felonies. This would and should be a major scandal.

MOORE: Don't forget, Max, I mean, we did -- the last time we had impeachment was obviously Bill Clinton, and it got nowhere. Republicans got nowhere with that. Why? And some of those allegations about Monica Lewinsky were very serious. But people felt good about the direction of the country. They didn't want to replace the president.

BOOT: No, no, I don't think that's why --

MOORE: And I think that's going to be --

BOOT: I don't think that's why, Steve. I think it's because they thought that the underlying conduct was trivial, which was lying about sex. In this case, we have to see, is Mueller going to come up with the goods?

MOORE: Well, we'll see.

BOOT? The underlying conduct is, I think potentially, much more serious which is collusion with a hostile foreign policy.

LEMON: The underlying conduct then.

[23:35:00] I mean, we're looking back to the 2019 lens or 2018 lens, if you look at them. Now, it would be seen as much more serious than --

MOORE: People at the time, I remember living through it. I was working for the Republicans in Congress back then. People thought it was very serious charges against Bill Clinton. Maybe not quite as serious. But my point is, you know, people just felt good about the country and they felt good about --

LEMON: Let me ask you something. I don't disagree with you. I think the Democrats have said that they are concerned that they'll make him into some sort of martyr if they tried to impeach him for something and there's no reason, if the Mueller report shows there's really no reason.

If this was Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama and you have all of these people who have been indicted, what do you think Republicans will be doing? Would they be calling it a witch hunt or --

MOORE: I think they probably would be calling for impeachment. I think they would be mistaken.

BOOT: That's an honest answer, anyway.

LEMON: Yeah, it is. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it. Max mentioned Bill Barr. We are going to talk about him, the man who would be in charge of the Russia investigation if he is confirmed as attorney general. He is speaking out about previously unreported -- a previous unreported meeting with the president. What Trump said at that meeting, next.

[23:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: As we have been saying, the acting attorney general, Matt Whitaker, suggesting that Robert Mueller's Russia investigation may be nearing its end.

I want to talk about that now with Garrett Graff. Garrett is the author of "The Threat Matrix: Inside Robert Mueller's FBI" and "The War on Global Terror." Also here, Jack Quinn and Juliette Kayyem.

Good evening on this eventful Monday already. It's the beginning of the week. It feels like maybe Wednesday or Thursday.

OK, so, Juliette, it was a stumbling answer. Whitaker looked uncomfortable. He was sweating. Didn't make that much sense. It was hard to figure out what he was saying. Do you think he knows what he was talking about?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: No. Simply. You want me to continue? I think he just started rambling and couldn't complete the sentence. Look, if you ask me, is Mueller closer to being done than beginning? I'm going to answer the same way. He's closer to being done, clearly, as you see from the pace of the indictments.

But he just indicted Roger Stone. For all we know, Roger Stone is going to start talking to Mueller. There's no way that could be done. We've got the strange case in the Supreme Court with the unnamed defendant. There's too many pieces that need to be resolved in court before we can anticipate the Mueller report.

And I think Whitaker just found himself answering a question where he would have been smarter to just say I'm not answering these questions. It shows his unsophistication. I think his -- you know, the fact that he should not be attorney general. Just period. And everyone, I think, agrees with that.

LEMON: One of the reasons people are so concerned about Whitaker is because he made comments like this on right here on my show. Watch this, guys.

KAYYEM: Yeah.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT WHITAKER, ATTORNEY: So I could see a scenario where Jeff Sessions is replaced with a recess appointment, and that attorney general doesn't fire Bob Mueller, but he just reduces the budget so low that his -- his investigation grinds to an absolute -- almost a halt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So Jack, I think he touched on it a little bit today. I don't know, I have more information, whatever. Do you think his previous comments like this, do they taint anything he does in relation to Mueller?

JACK QUINN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Sure they do. I mean, they taint his involvement. But his involvement has been tainted, I think, for a long time here.

The idea that they can all of a sudden begin to reconsider decisions that were made, that were approved by Rod Rosenstein when Mueller went to him and asked for agreement to -- to prosecute people or to investigate certain aspects of this, and that they're now going to review these things and perhaps make additional -- contrary decisions, that is just fanciful. That is simply not going to happen.

Among other things, it's pretty clear from the regulations governing the appointment of a special counsel that when they disagree with the special counsel and -- and essentially interfere with or prohibit him from conducting an investigation or a prosecution that he wants to, they have to immediately report to the Congress that they've done that.

You can be sure that if Congress gets a report, that something has been undone or that something has been -- you know, the railroad sighting has been used to move part of the Mueller special counsel train off the tracks. There is going to be hell to pay in the Congress. There will be subpoenas galore. That's simply not going to happen. I think what he did today to the extent that one could understand what he said, it was nonsense.

LEMON: Yeah.

QUINN: And you know, I think, by the way, the idea -- the largest bit of nonsense in the whole thing is that the special counsel is nearing the end to his investigation. That is simply not the case.

Just look at that paragraph 12 we've been talking about for days where there is now clearly a link between a Russian agent, namely WikiLeaks and Julian Assange, Roger Stone, and the Trump campaign which directed one of its senior officials to try to find out whether there was more dirt coming so that it could coordinate in the words of the special counsel mandate. So this is not anywhere near from the end.

LEMON: Mr. Garrett, in written answers to senators' questions, A.G. nominee Bill Barr disclosed another meeting with President Trump on December 5th at the president's request. The same day, he attended President George H.W. Bush's funeral.

Here it is. He said, "during the meeting, the president reiterated his public statements denying collusion and describing the allegations as politically motivated. I did not respond to those comments."

Why wouldn't he have mentioned this when he testified to the Senate in person?

[23:45:02] GARRETT GRAFF, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: It's an interesting question. I think it will re-raise some suspicions that senators had with Barr before he testified which is sort of mainly is he coming in as an honest broker. Remember, this is someone who actually has a decades' long working relationship with Bob Mueller.

They worked at the Bush 41 Justice Department where they worked very closely on incredibly big, important cases including the bombing of Pan Am 103. And so this is someone who -- Barr understands Mueller, knows Mueller, and has -- he said in elsewhere in some of these written answers, represented the integrity of Bob Mueller in conversations with people like Mike Pence.

This is certainly something that seems weird especially coming on the heels of all the questions that Juliette and Jack raised about Matt Whitaker. It's hard to escape the idea that this is a president who is set on hamstringing the Mueller investigation as best he can.

LEMON: Why a federal judge canceled or postponed for now Paul Manafort's hearing today, we'll talk about that. And also, have you seen Roger Stone? He's not hiding, is he? Pretty dark today, too. Tan, I don't know. But, we'll check it out after this. Don't go anywhere.

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LEMON: New developments tonight in Robert Mueller's case against former Trump campaign adviser, Paul Manafort. A federal judge in Virginia canceled Manafort's February 8th sentencing until he resolves a dispute with Mueller in a second criminal case in D.C. Mueller's team says Manafort breached his plea deal by lying. Manafort's attorneys said he misremembered details and did not intend to lie.

Back with me now, Garrett Graff, Jack Quinn, Juliette Kayyem. So, Garrett, Manafort is in a world of hurt here. Court hearings stacking up in D.C. and Virginia. What is your read on how the judge will rule on line to Mueller?

GRAFF: Oh, that's a tough one. In part, because, remember, the judge knows a significant amount that we don't about the context of some of these lies. Bob Mueller was able to redact his documents successfully, so, we don't actually know everything that Bob Mueller knows about the context of some of these Paul Manafort lies.

Of course, we do know some of that from the mistakes that Paul Manafort's lawyers made in redacting their own documents. But it certainly seems like Muellar has from what we can read publicly, a pretty strong case in the context of, you know, not one or two minor instances, where you might be able to sort of say oh, I misremembered that or my memory just doesn't align with the other person's.

But he has a pretty strong fact pattern that he's laying out about a whole number of activities, almost all of which revolve around Konstantin Kilimnik. That's one of the things that I think is worth noting and paying attention to, is that Paul Manafort seems to have a uniquely bad memory around all of the dealings that he has had with Konstantin Kilimnik.

LEMON: Well, he misremembered a lot a lot of stuff. Juliette, you say that this delay shows how interconnected all these cases are. Explain that for us. Is there an ah-ha moment coming, you think?

KAYYEM: No, I mean, I think each defendant needs to be treated differently, and each judge is actually treating all of this differently. But certainly in D.C., what we -- what we do know know, or I guess actually what happened in Virginia, is that the sentencing was canceled. It wasn't even postponed.

LEMON: Right.

KAYYEM: I don't even know what to make of that. Presumably there will be a sentencing. And I think what the district court judge in Virginia is waiting is to determine whether another judge says, you're a big fat liar, Manafort, and all the deals are off, or yes, you just misremembered. And then that would go to at least something to character about Manafort.

So, I thought it was the right thing to do. Look, when you're the defendant and one judge is waiting -- one judge where you've been found guilty is waiting for another judge where you've been found guilty, there's actually no really good news there. But I think this is just something that the courts are playing out in sequential order at this stage.

LEMON: You know, I was going to ask you about, if we get to Roger Stone, we will, but I just want to ask you, Jack, can we talk about Michael Cohen? Changing up his legal team now, CNN is reporting, and also saying he testified behind closed doors after saying, you know, I'm concerned about what Rudy Giuliani and the president said, he's viewing that as threats. What do you make of this whole situation?

QUINN: I have a distinct impression from one of his previous lawyers that he was genuinely fearful, that he felt threatened by things that the president and Giuliani said, and that's why he pulled out.

Now, I think that it was clear to him, became clear to him, that there would be some compulsion that would require him to testify and that's why we find ourselves in the situation we're in, where he's going to appear, and he's going to appear in several different forms.

LEMON: Yeah. I want to play this soundbite. Michael -- not Michael Cohen. Sorry.

[23:55:01] I don't want to play it, that's what I said. So Roger Stone was out and about today talking to reporters and anyone who would talk to -- I just noticed, wow, he's really, really tan today. But now, he's sort of changing his tune, Juliette, saying, yeah, I'm going to testify.

KAYYEM: Yeah.

LEMON: There he is. I mean, he and Trump are like the same color right there. Saying that now he's going to testify and sort of changing his tune a little bit about what he's going to do.

KAYYEM: Yeah, I mean, this happens with almost all of Trump's inner circle. They -- they, you know, talk tough, they come on strong and then they, I think, they sort of realize what is actually happening to them, that they're alone in a room with lawyers and there's no cameras and they realize their options are limited.

So, we do know that Roger Stone, you know, is sort of dreaming of a pardon, who knows if that's going to happen. Sarah Sanders, obviously punted that extensively today in her press briefing. But there's no reason to believe that any one of these people would be faithful to Trump --

LEMON: Yeah.

KAYYEM: Based on the experience of anyone who has ever been near Trump who is not related to him.

LEMON: I got to run. I'm out of time. Thank you, all. I appreciate it. Have a good night.

QUINN: Thank you.

LEMON: And thanks for watching, everyone.

KAYYEM: Good night.

LEMON: Our coverage continues.

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