Return to Transcripts main page
Don Lemon Tonight
Republicans Want Another GOP Nominee Other Than President Trump In 2020; Government Shutdown Pulls Down President Trump's Approval Rating; Questionable Private Meetings; Donald Trump Slamming Cliff Sims' New Book; Donald Trump's Dramatic New Talking Points. Aired 10- 11p ET
Aired January 29, 2019 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
[22:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: And it is an interesting theory that I don't know what's more frightening that they're not telling the truth because they're hiding things that they know they did that they shouldn't have done illegal or not, or, or, more frightening or just as frightening to me, he's so pissed off that we chase him about this, that he lies about these meetings, that he conceals things about these meetings just to spite us for asking the questions.
Either one is really frightening. Neither is a crime. Both would be political malpractice and unbefitting any president.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: You know some people are just not capable of telling the truth, right?
CUOMO: Yes, but usually they're in very snug-fitting clothes and getting medication around the clock. He gets no such benefit of defense.
LEMON: No, I'm not --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: He has every ability to tell the truth.
LEMON: That's not a defense. That's not a defense.
CUOMO: This is choice, not capacity.
LEMON: That's not a defense. But even in the, let's just say, pre- President Trump, before he was a politician, when he was just smarting, you know, spouting off on Twitter, he had trouble with the truth. Remember the whole, hey, the president wasn't born in this country, shouldn't be a president.
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: He had trouble with the truth.
CUOMO: true.
LEMON: This isn't -- I mean, this isn't new.
CUOMO: Nope.
LEMON: That's why I said, maybe he's just not capable. Maybe it's just not in him to tell the truth. Maybe he doesn't know he's lying about the lies that he lied about.
CUOMO: I'm with you halfway. He's always been like this. But it's his choice.
LEMON: Yes. Do you -- there's a -- do you know about the dunning Kruger effect? Have you ever studied that?
CUOMO: Tell me.
LEMON: So, the dunning Kruger effect is -- it's a field of psychology. Basically, what it's saying is that people think that -- basically what it says is that people think that they're smarter than they are and they don't know what they don't know, is basically what it is.
CUOMO: And that they can act on a false assumption --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- of presumed knowledge that they don't actually have.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And they can even believe what they're saying at the time, even though they know they don't know what they're talking about.
LEMON: The dunning Kruger effect shows why some people think they're great even when their work is terrible. That's by -- that's a 2017 -- a January 2017 article in Forbes.
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: But that basically tells you what it is. Some people think that they're smarter than they are and they have no idea, none, even if you show them the evidence, they won't believe you.
CUOMO: I'm smiling, because how long is it before some people make that into the Cuomo/Lemon effect and say it about us, now that we said it on the show, you know it's coming. I can hear the hate parade.
LEMON: We never say that we're that smart.
CUOMO: No, we say the opposite.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: That's why we ask questions.
LEMON: We ask -- hey, look, I ask questions. Don't ask me to do math. I don't know. I perfectly know I know my limitations, I know what I'm good at I know what I'm not good at. But some people don't know that. If anyone is out there, look up Dunning Kruger effect. And it explains a whole lot of what's happening in our culture right now.
CUOMO: Confidence versus competence.
LEMON: And I don't even know if it's confidence. I just think its sort of delusion in a sense. Now, changing stories, Mayor Gillum, great interview. What do you think of that guy?
CUOMO: I think he is a great get for CNN, because he is a big deal for that party in the future. He represents a lot of what they need. And he's going to be a good, honest broker of problems that they're going to have figuring out which way they want to go with big policy questions. This healthcare thing is a big thing.
You've got health insurance and then you've got healthcare. I understand there's a difference. But they have to figure out what they want to present to the American people in terms of how far they want to go with making public care and cost.
And what Kamala Harris put out last night, I agree with Andrew Gillum, it was ambitious. And she's putting out ideas. Let's see other people put out ideas instead of just hating on hers. Fine. But it was really out there, Don. It's a very, very controversial step.
LEMON: Yes, it is. And we didn't get a chance to talk about it last night, because there was -- you know, there was the thing happened between us, between our shows, the town hall.
Listen, I think that -- I'm not talking about politically. People can assess what they think of her politically, right, what they think about her.
It was refreshing to see someone who is able to string a sentence together, to keep a train of thought. I'm being honest. To actually know from which she was speaking of. And to just have knowledge of a subject without just spinning in circles about, well, if I do this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, OK, well, what's your plan? Well, I'm going to tell you, I'm just going to hire the best people. It was -- that part was really refreshing.
[22:04:55] Now, debate her policy all you want, and I think it should be debated, as you do, I'm sure, especially for someone who's running for president, but she certainly seemed prepared for the answers. And she did not hesitate when asked about the border wall. She said, no, no money for a border wall.
When asked about health care, she said, I think everyone should be entitled to healthcare in this country. Medicare, Medicaid, same thing. She was very direct and emphatic in her responses.
CUOMO: Yes. Yes. Look, she's a very competent politician. She was a good prosecutor. She made history as the A.G. in the state of California. I've interviewed her. She's quick on her feet. She's got a lot of skills.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: We have to see, though, you know --
LEMON: It's early.
CUOMO: Well, of course, it's early.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: But it's never early anymore. It's like this stuff never ends. But it's -- that's not what determines the outcome. Because there are going to be a lot of other people who check those same boxes. And it's going to be about opportunity.
You know what's the definition of luck, when opportunity meets preparation?
LEMON: Meets preparation.
CUOMO: Something is going to happen in that primary that's going to resonate with the base and expands it a little bit more. Who is going to be in that sweet spot saying the right things at the right time to capture that momentum --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- and distinguish themselves from the field?
LEMON: Here's an interesting thing that's happening, if you -- with your ear to the ground, and something that I want to ask her about. And we can debate this. I'm not -- maybe it's not worth a discussion, I don't know.
But the whole idea of how does she identify? Does she identify as an African-American? Does she identify -- did you see the thing going on, on social media? Does she identify as a person of color? Because when asked by Jake, if she, you know, as a black woman, she goes, as a person of color.
Remember that whole thing with Obama, is he black enough?
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: That is different than identifying. But it's just an interesting conversation to me that I hear people talking about. And it's a little bit perplexing to me.
CUOMO: Yes, I can understand that. I mean, mixed race or just being light. My friends who check those boxes have always told me, you know what, here's who makes the decision, the person who looks at you.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You know, the way you want to identify, that's up to you. It's obviously your choice. But people judge you.
LEMON: No, I think --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: They put you --
LEMON: No, no, no. I don't --
CUOMO: -- they put you in a category. So, if you look black, they're going to think you're black.
LEMON: That's not -- that's not -- here's the thing. When people say identify, meaning, does she or one who is running a person of color, do they identify with -- as being African-American. Being African- American is different than being black. You can be black and Cuban. You can be black and Caribbean. You can be black and Dominican. You can be black and, you know, South Africa, you can be black from West Africa or East Africa.
CUOMO: Right. But they're not -- they're not different census categories.
LEMON: But the experience is different as an African-American, someone whose culture and experiences are born out of the American slave trade --
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: -- and out of Jim Crow is different than someone whose ancestors weren't and who didn't have those experiences. I think that's what people mean by that. It's not saying, I don't identify as a person of color. I think, if people ask, if you are, what is the distinction between being African-American or blacks.
CUOMO: So, all blacks and African-Americans would be people of color, right?
LEMON: Yes, right.
CUOMO: All right. So, then it's about whether or not you identify as black or African-American. And you define the difference as whether or not you see yourself as an extension of the slave lineage and historical line of bringing you into the country?
LEMON: Of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., the Civil Rights movement, Jim Crow, and did your -- yes, if were you born out of that, if you have roots from that particular struggle. That's why I think --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: How much do you think that matters within those two communities?
LEMON: I think it does matter, I mean, you know, it does. I think it matters. I think Barack Obama went through that. I think she may. Maybe people have evolved beyond that, but I think that's going to be something that she is going to have to address. As a matter of fact, people are taking about that now.
But I do think though, you know, and not in any judgmental way, I do think that's an important distinction. Just like, there are people who come from Italy, who come from different parts, and they all identify as Italian. And I'm sure the same thing with Jewish people or with Irish people or, you know, black Irish, what have you.
So, I think that people, especially African-Americans, people who, you know, their ancestors came over on slave ships and had that particular experience as a person of color in this country, their ancestors and then beyond, I think that is an important distinction. Do you identify as a person of color, a black person, or as distinctively and instinctively African-American?
CUOMO: It's certainly going to matter on the left, right?
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: I mean, there is much more attention --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Well, that's yes.
CUOMO: -- to the identification and the delineation. So, that's one more thing she's going to have to deal with. You know, one of the magical parts of politics is that you get into it expecting one set of parameters and everything winds up different than what you expected.
Your ability to adjust, your ability to satisfy in the moment, your ability to persuade and capture the imagination of the people that you need to and build trust.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You never know where it's going to come from or what's going to be your secret to success until you find it in that moment.
[22:09:57] LEMON: Whatever it is, we have a lot more candidates to come. She seems to be competent and a very smart lady. So, we shall see.
CUOMO: And a very different offering than Joe Biden.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Who is presumed to be, you know, if he enters the race, that's it, it's over?
LEMON: Yes. We'll see.
CUOMO: We don't know.
CUOMO: Thank you, my friend.
CUOMO: Always a pleasure. LEMON: Stay warm out there. I have some, you know, a hat.
CUOMO: I need that hat.
LEMON: Yes. Come get it if you need it.
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
And tonight, I want to talk about President Trump versus the world. Or maybe it's the other way around. Democrats lining up to run against him, but even some in his own party are not ruling out a run. And that may be for a very simple reason, the numbers, the facts. OK, so the numbers tell the story.
One in three Republican and Republican-leaning voters in a new Washington Post/ABC News poll say they'd like the GOP to nominate someone other than President Trump in 2020. And if that news isn't bad enough for the president, there is more.
The vast majority of recent polling suggests the shutdown was no good for his already-plummeting approval ratings. That same poll found just 37 percent approval of the job the president is doing.
So let's talk about, 37 percent. Look at that. Let's talk about the shutdown. Even his own party and the person of, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell wants to make sure the president doesn't try that again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you support legislation to end the shutdown once and for all?
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R), MAJORITY LEADER, KENTUCKY: Well, to modify one of my quotes that usually brings a smile to your face, there certainly would be no education in the third kick of a mule. I don't like shutdowns. I don't think they work for anybody. And I hope they'll be avoided.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: But with no sign of a deal and the possibility of another shutdown in 17 days, the Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer is a lot more blunt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), SENATE MINORITY LEADER: I hope this serves as a lesson to President Trump and all of my Republican colleagues. No more shutdown. President Trump touched a hot, hot stove and hopefully he won't do it again.
When the president stays out of the negotiations, we almost always succeed. When he mixes in, it's a formula for failure. So, I would ask President Trump, let Congress deal with it on its own.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, that's got too smart for a man who loves to brag about writing the "Art of the Deal," even though he didn't actually write it. Someone who knows a lot about Trump's deal-making abilities is Barbara Res. She's been on the show. She's executive vice president of the Trump organization for nearly 20 years. She says this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARBARA RES, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT, TRUMP ORGANIZATION: There's no documentation that says Donald Trump is a great dealmaker. He's made good deals, he's made bad deals. He's caved more often than I can tell you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The president also getting blowback on his foreign policy and what you could only see as a rebuke to the president. Mitch McConnell is pushing a proposal urging that American troops remain in Syria and Afghanistan. And then there's this. This president's own intelligence chiefs flat-out contradicting him on ISIS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have won against ISIS. We've beaten them and we've beaten them badly.
DAN COATS, UNITED STATES DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: ISIS is intent on resurging and still commands thousands of fighters in Iraq and Syria.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Contradicting him on North Korea.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: No rockets. There are no rockets. There's no anything. We're doing very well.
COATS: We currently assess that North Korea will seek to retain its WMD capabilities and is unlikely to completely give up its nuclear weapons and production capabilities because its leaders ultimately view nuclear weapons as critical to regime survival.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Funny. You know what they didn't mention? A wall on the border. But I digress. And of course, there is another area where this president's own intelligence chiefs contradict him. Russia's attack on our election and continuing attempts to divide Americans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: My people came to me, Dan Coats came to me and some others, they said, they think it's Russia. I have President Putin. He just said, it's not Russia. I will say this. I don't see any reason why it would be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: In his written threat assessment today, DNI Coats says bluntly, "Russia's social media efforts will continue to focus on aggravating social and racial tensions, undermining trust in authorities and criticizing perceived anti-Russia politicians."
And speaking of Russia, we're learning a lot more tonight about the private discussion between President Trump and Vladimir Putin at the G-20 in Buenos Aires two months ago. The private discussion that came after the president made a show of canceling his planned meeting with Putin.
[22:14:58] The Financial Times is reporting that President Trump accompanied only by the first lady sat down at a table with Putin and his translator, just the four of them, while the other world leaders were leaving.
A Russian government official saying Trump and Putin spoke for 15 minutes, discussing a number of foreign policy issues. The White House calling it an informal conversation, but none of this is good news for this president.
Remember, it was just a few weeks ago that we learned that he took away his interpreter's note after another meeting with Putin in Hamburg. And the hits keep on coming for this president. Now he's even taking heat from his closest allies.
An anchor on state news channel, Fox News, calling the president a bully after he criticized Fox's John Roberts and Gillian Turner for their coverage of the end of the shutdown. Fox's Julie Banderas firing back saying, quote, "bullying journalists is not presidential, period."
All of that and its, you know, a lot, as Roger Stone, the dirty trickster and longtime ally of Donald Trump pleaded not guilty today to seven criminal charges of false statements, witness tampering, and obstruction of justice.
Let's not forget that he is one of six Trump associates including Michael Cohen, Michael Flynn, Rick Gates, Paul Manafort, and George Papadopoulos who have been charged by Robert Mueller. A total of seven people has pleaded guilty. Four have been sentenced to prison. And that may be the worst news of all for this president.
Lots to discuss now. Frank Bruni is here, David Gergen, and Michael D'Antonio. Here they are. We'll dig into it, next.
[22:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: One in three Republicans wants somebody other than President Trump to run in 2020. Those are voters in his own party. Just the latest piece of bad news for the president who seems to be getting an awful lot lately.
I want to talk about this and a lot more with Frank Bruni, David Gergen, and Michael D'Antonio, the author of "The Truth About Trump."
Gentlemen, good evening. I'm so glad to have all of you here in studio with me. This is great. Let's go over this, Frank. Roger Stone is in court, right, 2020 Democrats lining up against the president. Top Republicans are signaling the president to stay out of budget talks.
Mitch McConnell says he's open to legislation to avoid shutdowns. Intel chiefs are contradicting the president on multiple global threats. It's Trump versus everyone else, once again.
FRANK BRUNI, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: And I think when you add all of that together, he's as weak as he's ever been. You know, the chaos is normal. People coming out with books saying it's a chaotic White House, it's an unethical White House, that's not going to hurt him, because we've all become scarily immured to that, right.
But what's happened is now he looks really ineffective. The government has just been shut down for the longest period ever in history, he got nothing out of it. Mr. deal-maker got nothing out of it. Nancy Pelosi got the best of him. He's giving the State of the Union a week late.
So, the people who admired him or who thought he was a great president, they'd made peace with all the ethical stuff, they'd made peace with the chaos. They thought at least he would deliver on a few promises and be effective. That's what hasn't happened. That's the new revelation to them, and that's why I think you have that incredible number of one in three saying they'd like to see somebody else to be the Republican nominee.
LEMON: OK. But, listen. What we're seeing with all of these things, a detachment sort of from reality or whatever. Is he pulling us into it? Because I think sometimes, I feel like there's a force field and he's pulling us into it. And it's like, wait a minute!
BRUNI: But one in three Republican voters are not being pulled into it. That's amazing news and that's really good news. That suggests that maybe the spell you're describing is broken, right?
LEMON: What do you think?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think, Don, we're pulling back from him. I think the forces going the other way. And if anything, Frank, I would argue that he's in a weaker position now than he's ever been.
BRUNI: That's what I said.
GERGEN: You know, you said he's as weak as he's ever been. I think he's actually weaker. And in one sense, you know, Don, we've talked for a long time about the Trump base now it's holding.
LEMON: Right.
GERGEN: I think the resistance is now solidified so that it, in effect, it's holding, too. And I always thought that if Mueller came out with a benign report, that he would bounce back. I no longer believe that. I think that the opposition to him has firmed up and it's almost nothing you can do. There's almost nothing he can do now to improve his standing.
LEMON: Even his own intel chiefs are contradicting the president on ISIS, on North Korea, on Russia, on Iran, on climate change. Why is it that all of these threats, the president says one thing, his intel chiefs say another thing?
MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's because the president believes his own rhetoric. You know, when he started out in life, he was taught that he was better than everyone else. And that this was a matter of genetics, not education, not experience, not competence, but that he was just ontologically better than everyone else.
And he's supplied that idea every step of the way throughout his life. So, he's now the guy who thinks he's got a hammer and everything is a nail. He thinks everything is a New York City real estate deal. And people in real estate will tell you, the rules in New York City don't work anywhere else in the country.
GERGEN: They don't necessarily work in New York.
D'ANTONIO: Not anymore! You know, he's a deal-maker of the old school, his father's type of deal maker. And that went away in the '80s, which was when he pretty much stopped doing business in New York City, too.
LEMON: Yes. David, let's talk about this private conversation that the "Financial Times" is reporting at the G-20 summit in Argentina.
GERGEN: Yes.
LEMON: Only accompanied by a translator, no aides, and the first lady. They were at the table together and then, you know, they were the last to leave in having this private discussion. We knew about the private discussion that they had before, remember, the whole thing about the translator and whatever.
GERGEN: Right.
LEMON: But does this raise concerns for you? I'm talking about the one in Hamburg.
GERGEN: It raises concerns. It's yet another example of many, many examples when the White House hasn't fully disclosed the facts, as it does in traditional fashion. And it makes you very suspicious.
I mean, you have a string of these things that all seem to favor the Russians or somehow show undue respect for Vladimir Putin. It makes you extraordinarily cautious. You're looking for sort of corroborating evidence, and that's what we're all sitting around waiting for the Mueller report.
BRUNI: Yes. Why is there such a culture of secrecy?
GERGEN: Yes. BRUNI: And why is it thickest wherever its craws close to Russia?
LEMON: Well, speaking of that, we reached out to the White House and they are not -- they declined to answer whether they had this conversation.
[22:24:58] No, seriously. So, why would he -- why would he have these conversations with no officials present, do you think?
BRUNI: Well, because I don't think he wants anything about his relationship to Russia to be under scrutiny. He believes we're looking for things we are, and it seems that there must be something hidden there or he wouldn't care.
But I just want to say one thing about the intelligence chiefs contradicting him today. I think it's a really important moment. Because throughout this presidency, we keep asking ourselves, is there enough of an infrastructure, are there enough checks and balances that we're going to be saved from the worst of Trump?
And that question gets bigger and scarier with Mattis gone, with McMaster gone, but here are three individuals who seem to be answering to something higher than the president, they were answering to conscience and truth.
GERGEN: I agree with that totally, Don. He's -- this administration in these last couple of years have undermined our faith in our law enforcement agencies. But these are the intelligence agencies. These are the people who determine, in fact, whether we have a cause us (inaudible) a reason to go to war or not.
So, it's really important whether you believe them or not. And when they stand up and speak truth to power, actually scream truth to power in this case, that the president is not -- does not have a handle on reality with regard to North Korea, with Iran, with ISIS, with the Mexican wall, you know, it causes serious response to, wait a minute, this is a guy who may push the button. This is the guy who may send our troops into war.
LEMON: Yes, well --
GERGEN: And he doesn't have a grasp on reality?
LEMON: Here's a point of clarification. The White House declined to answer whether the president had any U.S. officials at his side in this conversation. That doesn't change your response at all?
D'ANTONIO: No.
LEMON: Everyone, we'll get on the other side. Stay with me. We have a lot more to talk about. The new tell-all books from Trump staffers and why the president is slamming one author, but not the other who happens to be Chris Christie.
[22:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: Two new volumes in what you might call the Trump book club, one by Trump ally Chris Christie, the other by former Trump aide, Cliff Sims. Sims' book carries the weighty title, Team of Vipers. Trump's already slamming the author and the book. Back with me now, Frank Bruni, David Gergen, and Michael D'Antonio.
So Frank, the former White House aide, Cliff Sims, chatted with Anderson earlier tonight about his new book, and said this about the president. Watch this, gentlemen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLIFF SIMS, FORMER TRUMP AIDE: I think it's just like the great paradox of the Trump presidency that you've got a guy who, you know, he's had more Washington Post Pinocchio's than every president combined, and yet at the same time as perhaps the most authentic person to ever hold the office, in a way.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: And how do you think he's authentic?
SIMS: Just in the way that he basically looked at the American people and said, this is who I am. You know everything about me. He's pretty much exactly the same behind the scenes as he is out in public. And I think that resonates with some people. So even the things you hear about him that are bad, it's not like anyone's surprised.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Yeah. So Frank, you have some thoughts about this book. What strikes you?
BRUNI: Well, I do. I mean obviously, there are these great scenes from the White -- from behind the scenes to the White House and all of that.
But what really struck me, and I think it was addressed in that very interview as well, is that Cliff Sims says, "I found myself in this administration behaving unethically. I found myself lowering my standards, losing my conscience because it was like -- it was the atmosphere around me. It was ambient. Just to be there was to let go of your principles. Stab people in the back. Tell lies."
And I listened to that and I read a little bit of the book and I thought, isn't that what we're all worried will happen to America, that with Donald Trump as president and with these people around him setting these standards, blowing up these norms, modeling this kind of amoral behavior, that will trickle down and infect the country.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: That was my force field question.
BRUNI: Yeah. Exactly.
LEMON: Are people getting pulled into it, and they're believing a reality that's not necessarily reality. I think the answer is yes, but go on. What were you going to say?
GERGEN: I don't think so. I don't think the country --
LEMON: Yeah. You said fighting (ph) back. I don't know.
(CROSSTALK)
GERGEN: -- just playing it down to a hole, right? I do think -- I am old school. And when I came through the system, there was always an expectation if you worked in the White House, there would be a discreet interval, a discreet interval that would occur before you wrote a book.
And you're worried about kiss-and-tell books from journalists like Bob Woodward, but who would imagine we would get all of these kiss-and- tell books that before people basically don't get out the door. They're already writing, cashing in on the White House experiences. And I find that, who the hell are these people? Why can we be --
(CROSSTALK)
BRUNI: It says a lot about his ability to command loyalty --
GERGEN: I agree with that.
BRUNI: -- and the amount of respect they have for him. It's very telling.
LEMON: But I also think that the outrage is not necessarily as -- he's not as outraged because he's like, you know, all of these people are writing books about me.
(CROSSTALK)
BRUNI: Trump?
LEMON: Yeah, Trump. I think that's just, you know --
GERGEN: Yeah, right.
LEMON: So that force field I was talking about. Cliff Sims talks about it in this. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIMS: You know, when you're around Donald Trump, there's something about him -- the best way I could describe it is similar to how people talk about Steve Jobs, when they called it a -- there was like a reality distortion field around Steve Jobs. And when you're around the president, everything seems bigger. Everything seems grander.
You know, there could be good things about that. But there's also kind of this atmosphere that gets created. It's extremely cutthroat. I think every White House is probably tough, but I think especially the atmosphere that has been created there that encourages a lot of the infighting. But what I realized was the closer that you get to the poles of absolute power, the more distorted your moral compass becomes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: You're the biographer here. Does this line up with the Trump you know, and is this a reaction typical to people who are close to the president's orbit, they get pulled in?
D'ANTONIO: I think they do. But you also bring your own lens to this experience. And I think that a lot of people drawn to Donald Trump want to be pulled. When I met him, I thought that he was an incredibly shabby figure. He actually made Trump Tower look worse to me than it looked walking in because, you know, he didn't seem to have a grasp of any facts.
He didn't have life experience. He wasn't interested in art, food, literature. He was only interested in himself. And I think one of the things that sort of disappointed me about the Sims book is I think he used the word I more than he used the word Trump.
LEMON: Yeah.
D'ANTONIO: It was very self-referential.
LEMON: It's interesting that you say that, because you could go shoot like an '80s period piece or, you know, like right in front of Trump Tower and it would fit right in. It is very '80s.
D'ANTONIO: It is very '80s. And you know, the first time I saw it, there was a guy doing a three card monte game in front. And I thought, you know, this is perfect. My first Trump Tower experience is a guy practicing slight of hand. And we now have a president who is distorting everything for us, and it is a slight of a hand.
[22:35:07] BRUNI: Cliff talks about two things, Don. I want to make sure that -- it's like a Venn diagram but they're not the same thing. He's talk about reality distortion but he's also talking about moral compromise. And those aren't exactly the same thing. It's the moral compromise component that is what I worry about in terms of the, for a lack of a better phrase, trickle-down effect into all Americans.
We have a president who is amoral, and who models moral compromise every single day, and how does that end up affecting the country?
LEMON: But can you respond to this? Because -- and I want to get to this Chris Christie, so we're going to go just a little bit over here. But we were talking about this president and the people around him. You said they wanted to be pulled in. But don't you think many of -- a lot of this is the shortest line to the front -- this is the shortest line to the front for a political recognition, for ambition, to get a title if you jump on this train -- because most people didn't want to be on it, this was the easiest way to get there.
GERGEN: Absolutely. It's a fast ride to heaven.
LEMON: Right. Yeah.
GERGEN: There's no question about that in political terms. But I just disagree with this notion that these people -- people who go into work for Donald Trump are pulled in and therefore lose their sense of responsibility.
LEMON: Right.
GERGEN: And you know, I just don't think that's true. Even in the Nixon days, there were people who were inside who were fighting for the old traditional standards of integrity, people like Leonard Garman and others.
And you know, you have to make a separation. If you're working at the White House, your obligation is to the country and to the people of the country. It is not to your president. That's what you take your oath. And to let these people just sort of apologize and say, well, I got succeed into it. Sorry, that doesn't work.
LEMON: Hey, this is Chris Christie who is on his tour now. His new book is called "Let Me Finish." He says that he was fired because of Jared Kushner. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's the one who fired you, right?
CHRIS CHRISTIE, FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR: That's what Steve Bannon told me, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you believe that?
CHRISTIE: Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. You believe that because there's history between the two of you.
CHRISTIE: Between me and his father, not between me and him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But you can understand why he takes it personally.
CHRISTIE: Yes and no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you separate your experience if your father had been put in jail from the prosecutor who put him in jail?
CHRISTIE: If my father was guilty, I would. Mr. Kushner pled guilty. He admitted the crimes. And so what am I supposed to do as a prosecutor? I mean if a guy hires a prostitute to seduce his brother- in-law and videotapes it, and then sends the videotape to his sister to attempt to intimidate her from testifying before a grand jury. Do I really need anymore justification than that? I mean it's one of the most loathsome, disgusting crimes that I prosecuted when I was U.S. attorney.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Go on.
BRUNI: Wow. The Christie/Kushner feud makes Joan Crawford and Betty Davis look like nuzzling kitchens, right? I mean it's just wow.
LEMON: It's like Krystle Carrington and Alexis Carrington Colby Dexter, whatever.
BRUNI: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Thank you, all. I appreciate it. We'll be right back.
[22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: President Trump has some dramatic new talking points on his manufactured crisis at the border, like human traffickers gagging women with tape as they drive them across the border illegally. And if that sounds like something you see in a movie, well, maybe it is.
CNN's Miguel Marquez explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Sicario, the Day of the Soldado. The 2018 sequel starring Benicio del Toro and Josh Brolin is a dark and violent take on U.S. Mexico border, Middle Eastern terrorists, drug cartels, and U.S. government efforts to disrupt them. It's fiction, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Show me your hands.
MARQUEZ: There are prayer rugs in the film. The president tweeted about prayer rugs found on the border from a story in the conservative Washington Examiner, which quotes an anonymous New Mexico rancher who had no evidence of the prayer rugs. The film also features terrorists who pay drug cartels to bring them into the country, something else on the president's mind.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: People are pouring into our country, including terrorists. We have terrorists. We caught 10 terrorists over the last very short period of time, 10. These are very serious people.
MARQUEZ: That claim appears to be the president accidentally or willfully misunderstanding a customs and border patrol statistic that 10 suspected terrorists, on average, are blocked everyday from entering the U.S., mostly by flying at locations worldwide. And then, there's duct tape. The president has that on his mind, too.
TRUMP: They come in. They nab women. They grab them. They put tape over their mouth. They tie their hands. They have tape over their mouths, electrical tape, usually blue tape, as they call it.
MARQUEZ: Ten times this month alone, counted "The Washington Post."
TRUMP: Tying up women, putting tape in their mouths. They tie up women, taping them out. Women are tied up. They're bound. They have women in the backseat of the cars with duct taped all over the place.
MARQUEZ: The president claimed women are duct taped, shoved into vehicles, driven across the border and sold. Those who work everyday trying to protect vulnerable immigrants from sexual exploitation say duct tape isn't a thing.
MARTINA VANDENBERG, THE HUMAN TRAFFICKING LEGAL CENTER PRESIDENT: We have a database of 1,435 indictments and we went through all of the indictments, and we found 26 cases that involved kidnapping. We did a search on duct tape, and we found 1 case of 1,435 cases that mentioned duct tape.
MARQUEZ: And that case was an American, not a migrant. In looking at all federal trafficking cases, most victims are U.S. citizens. Only about a third of trafficking cases are foreign nationals, and the vast majority of them enter the U.S. with legal visas. No duct tape.
VANDENBERG: What Donald Trump is missing with this sort of fictional account, Hollywood version of human trafficking is the dire cases that do exist in the United States, including cases of forced labor and forced prostitution.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't see nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Contact right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't see anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Down. Down.
[22:45:06] MARQUEZ: One other highly dramatic, possible Hollywood fascination the president has, those coming across the border have better cars and equipment than U.S. law enforcement.
TRUMP: They have the best vehicles you can buy. They have stronger, bigger, and faster vehicles than our police have. And then ICE has and than border patrol has.
MARQUEZ: It doesn't exactly fit the second Sicario film. CNN and many news agencies have asked the White House and relevant agencies about the president's claims on prayer rugs, fast cars, and duct tape. None have responded.
(END OF VIDEOTAPE)
MARQUEZ: Now, one more odd twist in all of this. The Washington Post ran a story detailing the president's repeated use of women being gagged and duct taped on January 17th.
The news site, Vox, has now seen an e-mail, a so-called request for information from a top border patrol official asking field offices around that time for claims "that traffickers tie up and silence women with tape before illegally driving them through the desert from Mexico to the United States in the backs of cars and windowless vans."
So two weeks after the president started talking about duct taped women, his own administration appears to be coming -- trying to come up with the facts to support what the president has been saying for two weeks. So far, no agency has come up with any of those facts.
LEMON: Which happens often with this presidency, people in the administration go to try to correct what he has said and see if there's actual evidence of it.
MARQUEZ: Art imitating life, imitating art, imitating maybe not very not good art.
LEMON: Thank you, Miguel. I appreciate it. Still no explanation from the White House about where the president's claims come from, but why does he keep spreading false information?
[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So where does the president's talking points come from, and why do they sound so much like a Hollywood movie? Let's discuss now, Ana Navarro, Scott Jennings.
Good evening. Good evening. Good evening. So Ana, the president has latched onto these unfounded claims of unbelievable, amazing cars, and duct taped women. Let's listen to a little more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Women are tied up. They are bound. Duct tape put around their faces, around their mouths, in many cases they can't even breathe. Having three and four women with tape on their mouths and tied up sitting in the back of a van or a car. Taping them up, wrapping tape around their mouths so they can't shout or scream, tying up their hands behind their back and even their legs. Usually blue tape as they call it. It's powerful stuff. Not good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So the White House has given no explanation as to where the president got this from. Is he confusing a fictional movie plot with the actual border security issues?
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think he's lying. Look, Don, I've told you before. I know a little something about men. After their voice cracks, you're not going to change them. Donald Trump has been lying his entire life. This guy lied about the draft. This guy lied about how much he's worth. This guy lied about what kind of money he got from his father.
This guy had pseudonyms. He would call and lie about himself as John Baron and John Miller. He has been lying his entire life. And he consumes an enormous amount of TV. So I think it's both things coming together. His pathological lying, he is like a John Lovitz character on Saturday Night Live, the pathological liar on the news update, the weekend news update. That is the president of the United States. And he's gotten away with
it his entire life. He's not used to the level of scrutiny that comes with being president.
LEMON: Scott, you know, you saw Miguel's story that just ran. There was a scene in a movie where agents find prayer rugs. The president tweeted about, you know, that, exactly that just a couple weeks ago. Is this just more scare tactics designed to frighten people into siding with him? What is going on here?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, I don't know because I think the problem is on the southern border that actually exists are good enough story to sell the case for border security. I mean we do have a massive problem with illegal drugs coming in from Mexico. There is a human trafficking problem as our story said tonight.
There are places where the fence is old and dilapidated and needs to be repaired and folks can go underneath it. So this is a case where the actual facts of a, you know, a problem on the southern border are probably enough to sell a very good political position. There is no need to stretch the truth which then calls into question the credibility of your entire argument.
So I would respectfully submit here stick to the facts, because the facts tell a great story and might help you make your case as you try to strike a deal with Congress.
LEMON: So -- but we've asking --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: I actually agree with Scott on this. You know, Don, I think what they should go do is they should go read the transcripts of the El Chapo trial that is going on right now. It tells us exactly how it is that drugs come in through the border into the United States, most of the time through legal ports of entry.
But if you really want to focus on addressing the problem and trying to find a solution for the problem, looking at the blueprint and looking at what these witnesses are telling you in this trial going on today, would be a pretty good place to start instead of Hollywood fiction being, you know, shown on Netflix.
LEMON: OK. But let me say - "The Washington Post" reached out to border personnel, women who had been trafficked in immigration organizations. And they were unable to find a single example of what the president was talking about. And then after The Post questioned Trump's claim of tape-gagging women, Fox reported that an assistant border patrol chief sent an e-mail to agents, Scott, asking if they had information that the claim was actually true.
[22:54:59] Fox's sources said that the officers in their sector heard nothing to back up the claim and the administration has given no evidence. So you say stick to the -- so why not do that? Why go to these lengths? JENNINGS: I don't know. I wonder if it's because there was
frustration over the failure to make a deal that caused the long shutdown. And now they feel like they need to press the case a little bit more. But again, the administration has good facts, and a significant chunk of the American people already agrees with the president. We do need more border security.
The border patrol guys say we need more barriers. There are illegal drug issues at both legal ports of entry and about 20 percent of the problem not at legal ports of entry. So again, you could sit here all night and make a really strong argument, and your border patrol guys would be able to back you up with evidence, actual facts, stuff that's really happening.
So there is a case to be made, but you hurt your credibility when you throw things in that may not be, you know, part of the reality of what is actually going on. So again, there is a win to be had here, but you hurt yourself if you don't stick to the real stuff.
LEMON: Ana, I got to go. I'll give you the last word.
NAVARRO: They should listen to Scott Jennings. Listen, the reason that they have to bend themselves into all sorts of pretzel shapes to back up what this lying pathological lying president is saying is because it is a requirement of the job. Working for Donald Trump requires lying for Donald Trump.
LEMON: Yeah, wow. No Republican on Republican crime tonight. Thank you, both. Appreciate it.
NAVARRO: Thanks, don.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
