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Don Lemon Tonight

President Trump Lose Money by Doing His Job; Speculations Cleared on Mystery Caller; It's Always the Media's Fault; Interview with Rep. Will Hurd (R-TX); War of Words Between Donald Trump and Nancy Pelosi; Trump Calling the Negotiations for the Wall A Waste of Time; Democrats Lining Up to Take On Donald Trump in 2020. Aired 10- 11p ET

Aired January 31, 2019 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: The root of it all will be what we saw today in almost every day. And if so, remember this. This president will have no one to blame for the scrutiny but himself.

Thank you for watching. CNN Tonight with Don Lemon, they've got breaking news and it starts right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Chris, thank you. I will see you soon. We are going to get to that breaking news. This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

In a new interview with the New York Times, President Trump says he's all but given up on negotiations with Congress over his wall, calling the talks, this is a quote, "a waste of time," and suggesting he's going to take action on his own.

We got a lot to say about -- he's got a lot to say about the Russia investigation, Roger Stone, and about intelligence, his intelligence chiefs. He claims that they told him their testimony was mischaracterized.

OK, so let's bring in now Maggie Haberman with the New York Times, joins us by phone. She just did that interview. Maggie, thank you so much for joining us here. You and Peter Baker interviewed the president tonight. He's talking about his longtime friend, Roger Stone. Give us the headline there.

MAGGIE HABERMAN, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, NEW YORK TIMES: Sure. So, the president was, number one, very praising Roger Stone, who as you note, he has known for several decades. He was emphatic that he did not speak with Roger Stone about WikiLeaks. He was emphatic that he did not direct anyone on the campaign to go speak to Roger Stone about what WikiLeaks might have.

And this is important, because there's that vague line in the indictment against Roger Stone that says that he was directed sometime after July 22nd, 2016, that somebody on -- that a senior campaign official was directed to get in touch with Stone. We don't know who the senior official is and we don't know who directed that person, but the president definitively said it was not him tonight. He seemed defiant about, you know, negotiations with Congress. Said

that his lawyers have been told by Rod Rosenstein that he, himself, is not a target of the investigations into him, although he seemed to suggest that only applied to the Mueller probe, not to the southern district of New York probe into Michael Cohen and into aspects of the Trump organization. You know, and he was adamant that he is, essentially, done with Congress. He considers the negotiations with them right now a waste of time.

LEMON: Yes. Let's talk about -- you talked about his demeanor. I just don't want to just focus on the demeanor. I'm just wondering what it tells us overall, because, you know, you said that he described as having his arms tightly, you know, folded tightly when you asked him questions about the Russia investigation, but he sounded optimistic to you, right?

HABERMAN: He did. I actually thought that -- I mean, look, his body language I think got a little more, you know, defensive when we were asking him about the Russia investigations, at other times, he was pretty relaxed. He had his arms folded around -- over the resolute desk.

He was -- I wouldn't say, subdued, but it was of the Oval Office interviews I have done with him over the last two years, it was the most conventional, frankly, of the interviews. He was, you know, sort of -- he was parrying on a range of topics that he was not, you know, there was no sort of peaks and valleys at various points of the interview that was interesting and he said a bunch of new things on a variety of topics, but he was overall pretty calm in his demeanor.

LEMON: So, let's talk about the negotiations going on on Capitol Hill when it comes to the border situation. This is a quote from the piece, OK, Maggie? It says, "I think Nancy Pelosi is hurting our country very badly by doing what she's doing, and ultimately, I think I've set the table very nicely," Mr. Trump said. While he would not directly say that he has plans to declare a national emergency to build a wall, he added, "I've set the table, I've set the stage to do what I'm going to do."

Are you sensing he's about ready to pull the trigger on declaring a national emergency?

HABERMAN: That was certainly the impression he left. He did not go so far as to say he would. And we did ask him, but he essentially said that he is running out the clock until the 15th date, and then he's going to do what he's going to do. We certainly know that declaring a national emergency is what he has been looking toward.

LEMON: So, in his mind, the only negotiation, as far as he's concerned, is the wall? There's nothing outside of it? And giving him what he wants to get on the wall? Anything outside of that is just not going to happen?

HABERMAN: I think that that's right. And that was my sense of it. It's funny, it reminds me a little bit of the first year when he had the failed negotiations for a health care bill, remember, they pulled the bill from the floor right before the vote. And we were told that's dead. And he said to us, I want to move on, I'm done with this.

And almost immediately, they started getting to work on another version of that bill. It's a little similar. He has had a view in his mind of where he thinks this should be. I think he tried it in other people's way, doesn't think it works well, and he wants to go back to what he wants.

[22:05:00] LEMON: So, (AUDIO GAP) CNN reporting that he said that, he thinks that his intel chiefs were, what they said was mischaracterized or that it was -- that they were misquoted. You spoke to him about summoning the intel chiefs to the Oval Office today after they publicly contradicted him. What is he saying now on that?

HABERMAN: He's essentially saying the media got it wrong. That they told him that this was mischaracterized and misrepresented by the media and he agrees with them after looking at it.

LEMON: So then how is that mischaracterized, just, I mean, the testimony was --

(CROSSTALK)

HABERMAN: I don't -- I don't know. I don't know. I mean, he -- I think it's easier for -- I think the intel chiefs decided to fault the press instead of have a lengthy argument with the president about whether they were contradicting him. And he is looking to move past this.

LEMON: And if we can talk a bit more about Roger Stone. He is -- he thinks Roger Stone is doing the right (AUDIO GAP) say about him, but did not necessarily broach the subject of a pardon.

HABERMAN: He didn't and we didn't. And candidly, Don, the president has already said he's not going to rule it out. So, there is, at a certain point, he tends to say that, a comment about this kind of thing over and over. He tends to not rule anything in or out, as you know, unless it's an extreme case. And I think we will see this, you know, as a certainly it could happen for some time.

LEMON: Maggie, am I missing anything in your interview? Because we just got it. And that's --

(CROSSTALK)

HABERMAN: I mean, I don't think so. I think that you've hit all of the highlights.

LEMON: OK. Maggie Haberman, fantastic reporting, as usual. We appreciate your time.

HABERMAN: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Thank you. So, we're going to continue to talk about this. Again, bombshell of an interview in the New York Times, the president broaching a lot of subjects today and we have a lot to talk about on CNN Tonight right now. There's also our exclusive on the Russia investigation. One of the

biggest mysteries surrounding that Trump tower meeting in 2016. Who was on the other end of those calls Donald Trump, Jr. made to a block number, just days before the meeting?

Well, CNN has learned that Senate investigators have new information showing that the calls were between Trump junior and two of his business associates, not, as many Democrats suspected, between Trump junior and his father, which is good news for the president's son.

But there is a lot we still don't know here, including exactly who those business associates were and what was discussed on those calls. We've got a lot more to come on that story, as well.

But we've got to talk about the president today, OK? He's trying to convince you to ignore what you heard with your own ears. He's done that before, but this must be the most stunning example of them all, the most stunning one yet.

The president tweeting tonight, "Just concluded a great meeting with my intel team in the Oval Office who told me what they said on Tuesday at the Senate hearing was mischaracterized by the media," mischaracterized by the media.

So, the president would like you to believe that what you heard with your own ears, as his own hand-picked intel chiefs testified Tuesday on live TV was, his word, "mischaracterized," which was impossible. After all, they said it. We all heard them say it. But the president wasn't done.

I want you to listen to this exchange with CNN's Pamela Brown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Mr. President, did you talk to your intelligence chiefs today about the displeasure you had with their testimony to Congress?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did, and they said that they were totally misquoted and that they were totally -- it was taken out of context. They said it was fake news.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: You can't misquote somebody when you play their own words. And I feel really confident that none of those experienced intelligence chiefs used the word misquoted or fake news. All of this, coming hours after the president said he didn't have confidence in Dan Coats or Gina Haspel, and said he'd probably be proved right.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you still have confidence in Gina Haspel and Dan Coats to give you good advice?

TRUMP: No, I disagreed with certain things that they said. I think I'm right, but time will prove that. Time will prove me right, probably.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, the president says time will prove him right, probably. And that's what this is all about, being right. This is a president who can't stand being contradicted.

Sources telling CNN the president was seething and called out DNI Dan Coats by name as he watched Senate highlights of the Senate testimony yesterday, testimony in which, again and again, those intel chiefs flat-out contradicted what the president has said.

So, we are going to go to the videotape. Here's what the president said about ISIS in December.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[22:09:56] TRUMP: We have won against ISIS. We've beaten them and we've beaten them badly. We've taken back the land. And now it's time for our troops to come back home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: "We have won against ISIS. We've beaten them and we've beaten them badly. We've taken back the land and it's now time for our troops to come home." Here's what DNI Coats said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN COATS, UNITED STATES DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: The group has returned to his guerilla warfare roots while continuing to plot attacks and direct its supporters worldwide. ISIS is intent on resurging and still commands thousands of fighters in Iraq and Syria.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Here's what the president said this afternoon about North Korea.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: When I came in, or let's say, at the end of the last administration, frankly, it looked like we were going to war with North Korea. Now there's no missile testing, there's no rocket testing, there's no nuclear testing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: "Now there's no missile testing, there's no rocket testing, there's no nuclear testing." Dan Coats.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COATS: We currently assess that North Korea will seek to retain its WMD capabilities and is unlikely to completely give up its nuclear weapons and production capabilities, because its leaders ultimately view nuclear weapons as critical to regime survival. Our assessment is bolstered by our observations of some activity that is inconsistent with full denuclearization.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Here's what the president said this afternoon about Iran.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think Iran is a threat. I think it's is a very big threat. And I think I did a great thing when I terminated the ridiculous Iran nuclear deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Dan Coats about Iran.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COATS: We do not believe Iran is currently undertaking activities we judge necessary to produce a nuclear device.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And of course, there's the biggest contradiction of all. On Russia's election interference. This is a president, what he said in Helsinki, standing side by side with Vladimir Putin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: My people came to me, Dan Coats came to me and some others. They said, they think it's Russia. I have President Putin. He just said it's not Russia. I will say this. I don't see any reason why it would be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So, he mentioned Dan Coats. This is what Dan Coats said this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COATS: We assess that foreign actors will view the 2020 U.S. elections as an opportunity to advance their interests. We expect Russia will continue to wage its information war against democracies and to use social media to attempt to divide our societies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: A source telling CNN tonight that DNI Coats and CIA director Gina Haspel are safe in their jobs and the president, he says, they were mischaracterized, misquoted. But don't forget, this is the president who said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: And just remember, what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, the question is, who are you going to believe? Seriously, who do you believe? Do you believe the president? Or do you believe your own ears?

Our CNN exclusive, new information showing Donald Trump, Jr.'s phone calls ahead of the 2016 Trump tower meeting were not with his father. That as the president sits down for an Oval Office interview with the New York Times. Lots to talk about with Shimon Prokupecz, Jack Quinn, Michael D'Antonio. We're going to dig into it, next.

[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: It is a busy news night and we have some breaking news right now. President Trump telling the New York Times he had nothing to do with Roger Stone's involvement in WikiLeaks.

I want to bring in now Shimon Prokupecz, Jack (AUDIO GAP), D'Antonio, the author of "The Truth About Trump." Gentlemen, (AUDIO GAP) with you.

Let's talk about this reporting from Maggie Haberman. Maggie says the president left himself no wiggle room. He told her that he never spoke to Roger Stone about WikiLeaks. What's your take on this?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: So, not only does he leave himself no wiggle room here, Don, the other thing that he said was that he didn't direct anyone to get in touch with Roger Stone about WikiLeaks.

Remember, there's a part in the Roger Stone indictment that says that someone in the campaign directed a senior person, a senior campaign official to talk to Roger Stone about WikiLeaks. He's saying, basically, and he's really leaving himself no wiggle room here, that he wasn't that person. He wasn't the person that directed anyone to talk to Roger Stone about WikiLeaks.

It will be interesting down the line to see if that question ever came up with Mueller and how he answered it when Mueller asked.

LEMON: Let's talk a little bit more, Jack. The president also reiterated to the Times that Rod Rosenstein who previously oversaw the special counsel's investigation, told his attorneys that he is not a subject or a target.

We have seen in previous reporting from the Washington Post that while Mueller doesn't consider Trump a criminal target, he described Trump as a subject. Can you explain the significance here?

JACK QUINN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, a target of the investigation is somebody that the prosecutor, in essence, is determined to indict or very close to that determination. A subject is somebody who is intimately involved in the transactions at issue and who could become somebody who later on is identified as a target. So, I mean, it doesn't surprise me that the deputy attorney general

would say, at this or some earlier stage of the investigation, that the president is not a target of the investigation or even a subject. But, you know, we're sort of getting ahead of ourselves here. I mean, Bob Mueller has a lot of work to do.

[22:19:52] Let's remember that the mandate here was not to gather evidence about Donald Trump. The mandate was to determine whether there was coordination between the Trump campaign and Russia in the 2016 election.

Now, we have had, you know, any number of indictments of people who were part of that campaign, like the campaign manager, the deputy campaign manager, the president's personal counsel, the national security adviser during the transition and then later in the White House. And they have all been indicted. What were they indicted for? They're indicted for lying. What kind of lies? Lies about Russia.

So, there's still a lot of smoke in the air.

LEMON: Yes.

QUINN: And Mueller needs to just finish this investigation at his own pace, and make a judgment about whether there was, in fact, coordination.

LEMON: Well, I just wonder if it's different in the Southern District of New York, if there's a different story there, Shimon?

PROKUPECZ: It is a different story, and we have that in paper and in documents that have been filed by the Department of Justice, where they've implicated the president in the hush money payments. And Michael Cohen, when he pleaded guilty to those charges, came out of his mouth, as well, that he was directed by the president, by the then candidate, Donald Trump, to make these payments.

So, in SDNY, in the Southern District of New York, he has been implicated in a crime. It's very different in terms of the Mueller stuff, because there's nothing to date, nothing in the public record that indicates that the president was involved in any illegal activity.

LEMON: OK. Michael, I want to bring you in now. I want your reaction on this part of the interview. Let me read here. It says, "At one point, he scoffed at the notion that he was making money from the presidency, calling the job a loser financially. I lost massive amounts of money doing this job, he said. This is not the money. The one -- this one of the great losers of all time. This is one of the great losers of all. You know, fortunately, I don't need money. This is one of the great losers of all time. But they'll say that somebody from some country stayed at a hotel and I'll say, yes, but I lose, I mean, the numbers are incredible."

That's how he's describing the presidency, that it's a loser for money? The presidency should not be about making money. MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No, it's really shocking, isn't

it, that he's thinking about his bottom line when he's sitting in the Oval Office. And he, you know, what I take away from that is that the closer things get to the heart of his administration, actually, the calmer and more to type the president becomes.

And this is true of a lot of people who are disturbed. They actually love the chaos, the tighter things get, the more comfortable they are, the more relaxed they are.

So, this president, I think, is feeling the pressure, but he likes it. And so, he's also going back to the old days. He talked about this early on in his presidency, that he wasn't making enough money.

LEMON: But, I don't -- I'm not surprised by reading that.

D'ANTONIO: No.

LEMON: Should anyone be surprised, because it's all about him and it's always all about the money. And the people elected him because it's -- maybe because of that, or maybe they just didn't realize that.

D'ANTONIO: Well, it makes you wonder, when is it going to be about the country.

LEMON: Exactly. For people who say that they're patriots and this is about the country. It also sounds like he's fully aware of what's going on financially over at the Trump organization.

D'ANTONIO: Yes, isn't that interesting? So, we saw that display before he took office, of all the papers. You know, these were file folders that were set out and a lot of folks speculated that they contained blank paper. And it was supposed to describe how disengaged he would be from the affairs of the Trump organization. He's not disengaged at all.

I'm sure he's hearing from his sons and from his daughter. I'm sure the whole family knows what's going on in these enterprises. And I actually think the money is very much on his mind where these prosecutors are concerned. He does not want to see his legacy be the collapse of the Trump organization. And that is a -- that's at risk.

LEMON: Yes. Shimon, the mysterious call -- calls that Donald Trump, Jr. had with that blocked number before and after the Trump tower meeting with Russians were not with his father, OK? So, tell us more. What is CNN learning here?

PROKUPECZ: Yes, so what CNN is learning, Don, is that these calls -- this was in 2016, there were several calls leading up to the meeting and then there was a call that was placed after the meeting, just a couple of hours after the meeting.

One was on June 6th, three days before the meeting. There were these two calls, both from blocked numbers, and then there was an additional call on June 9th also from a blocked number. And members of Congress, when Don Junior had appeared before them,

were asking questions about these calls. And Don Junior didn't recall who they were with. He didn't answer some of the questions.

The whole point of this is that members of Congress wanted to see if he was talking to his father, Donald Trump, about this meeting. And so, they were a little suspicious and finally, they have the records and now they see, well, hey, you know what. This wasn't with his father, as we may have thought or suspected.

[22:25:01] And obviously, the bigger point in all of this is that they're trying to find out if Donald Trump had any advanced notice of this meeting with the Russians, which turned into all about, you know, dirt on Hillary Clinton, first it was going to be about adoption, then it was Hillary Clinton dirt. It so turned into a meeting that they should not have had.

Obviously, we know all of the activity that went on after that meeting. So, members of Congress were trying to use this to perhaps see if he did, in fact, give his father advanced notice. And it turns out, at least from these calls, we can't tell.

LEMON: OK.

PROKUPECZ: Could still be.

LEMON: Let's talk a little bit more about that, Jack. Because this is, I mean, this is good news for Don Junior, but it's -- you know, it's one of many things in question. For starters, again, the president's son still had a meeting with Russians to get dirt on Hillary Clinton.

QUINN: Yes

LEMON: There is that fact.

QUINN: Yes. Look. Just as proof that he had a conversation with his father would not necessarily have implicated his father in getting dirt on Hillary Clinton on some kind of involvement on his part with the Russians at that point in time.

This conclusion that he was talking to someone else about business matters speaks only for that point. And I'm glad for Don Junior, that you know, this piece of evidence is not going badly for him. So, but it only proves that that blocked call episode did not involve the president.

We have, at the same time, you know, now the indictment of Roger Stone, those indicting papers indicated that a senior campaign official was directed, by someone --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: And who is that?

QUINN: -- to get in touch with Stone and help make a link between the campaign and Stone, Assange, WikiLeaks.

LEMON: Yes.

QUINN: That's the kind of linkage, that's the kind of coordination that speaks directly to the mandate that Robert Mueller is operating under.

LEMON: All right.

QUINN: And I think that is vastly more important, whichever way it comes out, it's vastly more important than this blocked call situation -- episode.

LEMON: Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate your time, more to talk about. Faced with a political reality of being stiff armed by his own party, the president says he could declare a national emergency to build his wall. But will he? I'm going to talk to the Texas Congressman who represents the largest stretch of our southern border with Mexico, Will Hurd joins me next.

[22:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: President Trump and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi escalating their war of words over the border wall. Pelosi insisting a deal to keep the government open beyond February 15th will not include any money for the wall, the president threatening to declare a national emergency, and go around Congress to secure the funding for a wall. Oh, boy.

Well, let's bring in now Congressman Will Hurd, a Texas Republican whose district, by the way, stretches more than 800 miles along the border with Mexico. Congressman, I am so glad you're here. Thank you very much. So, you know, I let out a sigh there. And I think most of America, as well. We can't stand anymore government shutdown. People want to get paid.

Let's talk about this interview and then go over the whole border situation. First of all, this is -- I want to get your reaction from The New York Times' reporting tonight. And here's what Trump says about the house speaker. He says I think Nancy Pelosi is hurting our country very badly by doing what she's doing. And ultimately, I think I have set the table very nicely, Mr. Trump said.

While he would not directly say what he plans to declare a national emergency to build a wall, he added. I have set the table. I have set the stage for doing what I am going to do. So he says -- the president says if Nancy Pelosi doesn't approve the wall, the rest of it is just a waste of money and time. What do you say?

REP. WILL HURD (R), TEXAS: Well, I think a large Homeland Security package for a lot of border security is not a waste of time. We need technology. We need additional manpower. We need technology in between the ports of entry. We need technology at the ports of entry, so all of those items would be great in getting us to the vision of having operational control of the border. That means we know everything that's going back and forth across our

border. The problem is what does a wall mean? You know, what does fencing mean? What does physical barriers mean? This is where this debate between the president and the speaker is getting us. I am glad there are 17 people in a room, in a bipartisan way, trying to negotiate a funding deal to fund the Department of Homeland Security.

And I hope that they move towards some kind of completion. The president outlined what he thought was a compromise, and today the Democrats provided their response. And now it's up for this conference committee, this bipartisan, bicameral group to work together to try to find this deal, and ultimately...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Do you think --

HURD: Go ahead, Don.

LEMON: Do you expect him to declare a national emergency?

HURD: I think he's planning to do that. I think that's a bad idea. I think many people have already articulated that this is a bad idea. He has the capability, according to law, to declare a national emergency. But the question is going to be, in some of the sections they're talking about using in public law, to have Department of Defense build this wall.

That will definitely be challenged in a court. And the ruling states that if the military has to build something to advance their mission, then they can do that. But when the mission is the thing that they're trying to build, that's going to be the issue around this court case. We shouldn't be taking money from the Department of Defense, because the next question is what are we taking away from DOD in order to do some of this physical barrier.

LEMON: OK, so a couple of questions here. Does -- in your negotiations at all, does the idea of the reality that the president said Mexico was going to pay for the wall. Does that ever come ump? And now, taxpayers or the Department of Defense, they're being asked to pay for the wall. Does anyone ever go to that reality?

HURD: Well, I think it's been often quoted and talked about in the press when it comes to the individuals that are actually trying to solve this problem, avoid another government shutdown, ensure that we really have border security. That's not a topic of conversation that I have heard of or I have participated in. This should be how do we gain operational control.

[22:34:56] We should work within the confines of the Secure Fence Act that's already law. We have 654 miles right now of physical barrier. We should have technology and we should have manpower.

LEMON: OK. So -- and quickly, I just want to ask you about other things. Does he understand the precedent that this would set? If another president came, you know, was elected into office and then said, I think healthcare for all. That is a national emergency. So I am going to have a mandate, and we're going to do healthcare for everyone, regardless of what people say.

Or any other particular issue that, you know, my taxes are a real crisis in this country. This is going to be an emergency. Therefore, I am going to declare that everyone does this. Does he understand the precedent? And Republican members of Congress, do they understand the precedent that this might set?

HURD: I can't speak to whether the president understands or not. But I know members of Congress understand that. You know, think about, had President Obama declared a national emergency because of climate change, right? This is something that military officials have said is threatening our national security. And they used that to close energy plants.

People would have been outraged. So I think members here, in both the House and Senate, recognize the dangerous precedent something like this would set. And many people are trying to articulate that to the president.

LEMON: Listen. I am really out of time here, but did it resonate to any of you guys that the intel -- members of our intel community didn't mention the border wall as an existential threat in their testimony?

HURD: That should be a highlight. You know, I am a member of the intelligence community or was for almost a decade, trying to understand whether there was a nexus between international terrorist organizations coming through our southern border, something that men and women for a very long time have been paying attention to.

And the fact that it didn't come out in those hearings should tell you that it's easier to get a European passport and a fake European passport and travel through one of our airports than trying to sneak in from one of our borders.

LEMON: Republican Congressman Will Hurd of Texas. Thank you, sir. I appreciate your time.

HURD: Always a pleasure.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

[22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: And we're back. The president is calling the negotiations in Congress over the border wall and government funding a waste of time in an interview with The New York Times, and dropping hints that he may declare an emergency to get money for his border wall. Chris Cillizza is here. April Ryan, she's the Author of Under Fire, Reporting from the Front Lines of the Trump White House.

I have so much to talk to you guys about, so just brief answers, please because I want to get into it. Chris, I'm going to start with you. The president told The Times tonight that I will continue to build the wall and we'll get the wall finished. Now, whether or not I declare a national emergency, that you'll see. He calls talks in Congress a waste of time.

So it sure sounds like we're headed towards a government shutdown or a national emergency.

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER AND EDITOR-AT-LARGE: Yeah. So February 15th, Don, is when this current deal runs out. He has two options at the end of that. And I don't think there'll be a deal that he signs. He has two options. One, let the government shut down again. Two, declare national emergency. I think given what happened to the Republican brand over this 35-day shutdown we've just endured, there's no way in heck he's shutting down the government again, which means a national emergency.

And that will be litigated through the courts. But in the near-term, he'll keep the government open and he can declare for --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: How will his base react to that, do you think?

CILLIZZA: I think they'll react well, because it will be a prolonged legal fight. But in the sort of nearest term, he can say I got it even though Democrats wouldn't work with me.

LEMON: OK. So let's just -- I wanted to talk a little bit about -- Will Hurd about this, and we touched on it a little bit. And April, you -- we were talking in the break. So I don't understand the framing of this, because I want the American people to be completely aware. There's already fencing, 400 -- 654 miles of fencing or barrier along the border now.

Much of it needs to be shored up. Some of it needs to be shored up. There's already legislation and efforts in place before the Trump administration to shore that up and add new fencing. So then why are we fighting over something that is already happening? Is it a failure on us, the media, to not tell the American people that?

Is it a failure on the Democrats who haven't framed it right? Or is it on Republicans who are going along with the president for something that is already in the works, the government is shut down. We're fighting over something for naught.

APRIL RYAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: So there are a lot of things here, Don, in trying to quickly unpack it. You're right. President Obama and prior presidents have been working on fixing the wall and extending it just a bit. But this president went out, and he said it from the Oval Office today when he had the bill signing on manufacturing. He said, you know, he campaigned on this.

It's a partial campaign issue. So what the president was talking about, I want to build this wall. And people were like, what, wait a minute. There's 2,000 miles of a stretch on the southern border. What are you talking about? In essence, he wants to be the one to have the optics of I secured the border. (CROSSTALK)

LEMON: There's already fencing along the border. There's already fencing along the border.

RYAN: There's already fencing along. But he -- and this is the fight right now over sensors and drones versus a wall. President Trump says he's not going to do sensors. He's not going to do drones. If it's not a wall, there's nothing at all. He's going to go to a national emergency, February 15th.

LEMON: This is the president on January 11th. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They can name it whatever they can name it, peaches, I don't care what they name it. But we need money for that barrier.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: All right, Chris, so -- and then today, he tweeted this. He said let's just call them walls from now on and stop playing political games.

[22:44:56] CILLIZZA: I mean I feel like we have this conversation about once a week, Don, which is read his Twitter feed. His Twitter feed is the impurest form of Trump, right? Everything else can be filtered. He does often say contradictory things even in his Twitter feed. But I think he speaks the truth more often via Twitter than through any other form of communication.

He is stuck on calling it a wall. If it is not called a wall, if it is called Normandy fencing, if it is called steel slats. I know he has proposed things like that in the past. He wants a wall, because April's right. He wants to take it to the base and say, I promised this. They said I couldn't do it. I said it was going to be big and beautiful. And I got the money. That's it.

LEMON: OK, more to come. Thank you, both.

CILLIZZA: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: The Democratic field for next year's election is getting bigger, and my next guest is thinking of throwing his hat into the ring. Former Colorado Governor, John Hickenlooper, joins me next.

[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Democrats are lining up for the chance to take on President Trump in 2020. Six candidates have announced that they are officially running. Three more have launched exploratory committee. Look at that field. Already, it's early. My next guest is considering throwing his hat into the ring. Joining me now is John Hickenlooper, the Former Governor of Colorado.

Everyone always asks -- good evening -- asks this question last. Are you going to run? I am going to ask it first.

JOHN HICKENLOOPER (D), COLORADO FORMER GOVERNOR: We haven't made up our mind yet. But certainly, it's a great chance to talk about some of the things we've done in Colorado, how we've been able to bring people together and solve problems and -- you know.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You're leaning which way?

HICKENLOOPER: I am leading towards running. I think there's a lot of traction we've gotten.

LEMON: OK. So let's go over a couple of things. Thank you for being honest with me. The president says the Democrats have really drifted left. Is that a preview of his message in 2020?

HICKENLOOPER: Yeah. I think that's one of the many messages, you know? This president deals in buckshot, in scattershot. So you'll have many, many messages but that'll be one. He'll try to demonize anyone who has even taken a moment to run against him.

LEMON: So then what is your message then if you run? What are the things that are important to you? We know that this president early on, the wall was important, meaning immigration, repealing and replacing Obamacare. That was important, so you...

HICKENLOOPER: Well, I think if you look at President Trump, he has divided the country worse than it's ever been divided in its history, or at least certainly for the last 100 years. You know, my history, both as a mayor, as a governor, as a business person, was to bring people together and find solutions to vexing problems.

To -- you know, we brought environmentalists together with the oil and gas industry for methane regulations, the equivalent of taking 320,000 cars off the road. We got expanded Medicaid. We got almost 95 percent of the population of Colorado now has healthcare coverage. Those are difficult tough problems we've been able to get people together.

LEMON: Do you think it's a winning strategy to run to the left, because a lot of the people who won, when you look at the new Congress, right? People a lot -- the younger more diverse people are coming to the office. They ran further left than many in recent years past, and they won. Do you think that's a winning strategy, that Democrats actually want someone who is pretty progressive and to the left?

HICKENLOOPER: Well, certainly, Democrats have strong values. And I have always loved that about the Democratic Party. Most of the Democrats I have talked to, they want to beat Trump. And I think to beat Trump, I think you're going to do better with someone like myself that has a record of accomplishing -- bringing people together and accomplishing, you know, challenging solutions.

And whoever's going to take on Trump has got to win in Ohio and Michigan and Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. Those are places where accomplishments are going to matter. It's not just having a progressive vision and talking a good game. You're going to have to show that you are able to get things accomplished.

LEMON: OK. So let's dig in a little bit more about that, because my real question is how do you break through, right? Because this a new Washington Post, ABC poll. It shows this week that the majority of Democratic voters don't have preference right now, but among those who do, the top choices are Vice President Joe Biden and Senator Kamala Harris.

So then how do you break through with that? And how do you as you said beat the president?

HICKENLOOPER: Sure. Well, certainly winning the primary is a place where -- I mean that's -- I have got lots of time on my hands. I finished being governor three weeks ago. So I will be in Iowa and in South Carolina, and New Hampshire, and Nevada all spring, all summer, all fall. And I am going to make that record again and again, the examples of sitting down with 34 mayors in the Denver metropolitan area.

Two thirds of them are Republicans or conservative independents, and we came together to build a transit system. No other metropolitan area has ever done that. And I think people are tired of the dysfunction and all the attacks, the anger in Washington. And they're going to want to support somebody who can get things done, and in that process, be able to support someone who can beat Trump at his own game.

LEMON: OK. So is that person you or is it someone like Howard Schultz who Democrats are really upset with right now, because he's thinking of running as an independent. He said he is. They're afraid that he's going to be a spoiler. He's going to help to re-elect Trump. What do you think?

HICKENLOOPER: Well, that certainly worries many of us. If you look back in history, Democrats have won a couple of elections. But for that third party candidate who came in and siphoned away a crucial number of votes from the Democrats. And that's, you know, that's the way it is. I suspect that Howard Schultz, if the polls show him that he is going to harm the chances of beating Trump that he will in the end, not (inaudible) running.

But, you know, you can't predict what someone's going to do thin this kind of a situation.

[22:55:04] LEMON: Listen. I have watched his interviews, and I understand what he says. And in a, you know, and if it was (Inaudible) a completely utopian political landscape, what he says makes sense. But on paper, when you look at actually how you break down how people win elections in this country, it's just not winnable. I mean it just -- it doesn't make sense.

HICKENLOOPER: Well, I look at it -- again, this is a point where the frustration that Americans are feeling and being so divided. They're going to be looking for people who don't just talk about bringing them together but can demonstrate again and again and again that ability to, you know, find common ground. You know, there's no trick to persuading someone to shift their opinion a little.

You've got to listen to them. I have never persuaded anybody yet to change their mind by telling them why they're wrong and why I am right. And I think that kind of approach is what most Americans are hungry for.

LEMON: Yeah. And what I'm saying by that -- listen, not that the American people wouldn't want to elect him. But when you think about the current way our system works in order to qualify for certain elections and primaries, you have to be a Democrat or a Republican. I mean it's just the way the system works that it seems like an almost insurmountable feat for him to actually get the job done as an independent without a party behind him. Quickly, please, Sir.

HICKENLOOPER: Well, the system is clearly -- I think you can expand that and say that the system is not designed so the Americans feel heard. And one of the things I have done in Colorado and have tried to do throughout my life is go to where people are and listen as hard as I can, so that they do feel heard. They do feel validated. And you often find that you learn new things about them and yourself.

LEMON: Governor, thank you for your time.

HICKENLOOPER: You bet. Thank you.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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