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Don Lemon Tonight

Virginia Beach Mass Shooting, Forty-Year-Old Engineer Kills 12 People; Violence Brought By Guns; Rep. Cedric Richmond (D-LA) Is Interviewed About Being The First National Co-chairman Of Joe Biden Campaign, And About Virginia Mass Shooting; Mexico Tariffs Spook Wall Street. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired May 31, 2019 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Here's our breaking news. The latest deadly mass shooting in this country. Twelve people killed at a municipal building in Virginia Beach. One of the victims shot while he sat in his car in a parking lot.

The gunman, a disgruntled employee. A certified professional engineer in the public utilities department. He entered the building shortly after 4 p.m. just as the work day was winding down and immediately opened fire.

Victims found on three floors after a long gun battle with four police officers that left the shooter dead. Four people in surgery tonight. Authorities recovered a rifle and a .45 caliber handgun with extended magazines and a suppresser. That is according to the police chief.

I want to show you now and take you to the gunman's home where police are removing the vehicle in an effort, I'm sure to search it and get more information. But again, not exactly sure which vehicle it is. I imagine it's the one there some officers there on the scene.

But again, this is at the suspect's home in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Just moments ago, we saw a great car that appeared to be in the process of being towed. But again, the suspect is believed to be a certified professional engineer for the city. A disgruntled employee.

And we'll learn more information about him now with CNN's Shimon Prokupecz who has been doing his due diligence here and getting information for us. What information do you about the shooting suspect, what can you tell us?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Right. So. CNN has identified him as DeWayne Craddock. He's 40 years old. And as you said, Don, he worked as a certified professional engineer for the City of Virginia Beach in the public utilities department. This is where the shooting took place.

The public works department housed in building number two of this municipal area, in this area where all these different city buildings are where the shooting took place and that is exactly where he conducted the shooting.

We've also learned police as you said, the police have been at his home. There now what appears to be towing a vehicle from his home and they're searching for evidence. You know, we've heard a lot that he is disgruntled. He was a disgruntled employee. We don't know exactly why that is or what was going on.

But obviously police are trying to gather all that information. They have not publicly identified him yet. They say they're waiting to do so. But as of now this is what we're told by sources that he is this 40-year-old man.

The other thing, Don, obviously, police have been going through the scenes at the shooting location and they have found a lot of evidence. As we've said and been reporting. They have this gun that they found, a .45 caliber weapon with several magazines, extended magazines.

These are magazines that can carry a lot more bullets than a normal magazine that you would purchase with a weapon. And they've also, we're told by sources recovered a rifle that they believe belong to the shooting -- to the shooter.

That is all being processed. Investigators said that he did purchased these weapons legally. It does appear that there was some planning at least that went into this, Don.

LEMON: Yes. Well, talk to us more, what do you know about how the shooting unfolded and the response?

PROKUPECZ: Yes. Well, the response here police have said was quick. There were police officers nearby given the area, given where this was taking place. They were table to get to the location fairly quickly.

And what we learned from the police chief when he spoke just a short time ago, is that there was a running gun battle. There was a gun battle between the police and the shooter. And he said it was a long gun battle that this went on for some time. The shooter went through three different floors of the building. They found victims on each of those floors.

They say the only reason that he was stop was because police encountered him and were able to stop him. In fact, a police officer was injured. They believe he was shot in his bullet proof vest, which prevented him from getting killed.

So, there was this long-running gun battle between the shooter and the police. And they credit the work of the police in stopping him. And it sounds like it was a very hectic scene.

[23:04:58] And one thing I want to note, you know, when the police chief ended his press conference, he said inside that the scene inside that building was like a war zone.

LEMON: Wow. Shimon Prokupecz, thank you. I appreciate that. I want to take you back to the suspect's home and now live pictures. And again, it is believed to be the suspect's car that they are towing there. And you can see the person who is towing the car on the scene as well as a number of different police officers and what have you there.

But again, this is believed to be the suspect's car, they are at his home now and they will tow that to, I imagine, a police impound lot and do some investigating on that car.

We get more information we'll bring it to you. Right now, I want to go to Michael Berlucchi, though. He is a member of the city council, joins me now from Virginia Beach.

Councilman, thank you so much. I appreciate your time. You were born and raised in Virginia Beach, as I understand. You're an active member of this community. This is your home. How are you doing tonight?

MICHAEL BERLUCCHI, COUNCILMEMBER, VIRGINIA BEACH: Well, thank you, Don, for the opportunity to join you. It's a difficult night. It's the worst day in our city that I can imagine.

LEMON: You have been hearing, councilman, about this shooter. We've been providing information. You have been providing, or at least members of your community, law enforcement, your mayor and police chief, they are providing information about this particular person and what went on. The shooter was a disgruntled public works employee. Had you ever come in contact with him? Did you know him?

BERLUCCHI: No. I don't even know the individual's name at this time. I just heard a little bit in the discussion you had just before I came on that you may have identified that individual.

I've been here at city hall at the municipal center in our emergency operations center with a city staff, with emergency professionals and I have no information about the suspect other than I can confirm that he was a city employee.

LEMON: OK. I just give you some information so I don't know if you know him or maybe you'll recognize his name. But his -- the suspect is DeWayne Craddock. That's according to a law enforcement official in Virginia government source. Forty years old, worked as a certified professional engineer from the City of Virginia Beach in the public utilities department.

He is listed on press releases as a point of contact for information, local roads projects over the last several years. There is a 1996 news report where he served as an Army National Guard, in the Army National Guard as a private after attending Denbigh High School in Newport News. Again, I'm not sure if you are familiar with the name DeWayne Craddock?

BERLUCCHI: That I'm not familiar with that name at all.

LEMON: Yes.

BERLUCCHI: I do I have had a chance over the many years that I've been active as a volunteer and in civic life from Virginia Beach to have a chance to work with many professionals in our city. And I know many people in the public works department and people who work in building two where this terrible event occurred. I know those people to be dedicated, professional, passionate public servants. I have no knowledge of this individual.

LEMON: We have learned, councilman, that the police department had been planning to hold active shooter training tomorrow morning. The Facebook page for the events said that the --

(CROSSTALK)

BERLUCCHI: That's correct.

LEMON: -- that they are facing an armed shooter with bad intentions was every person's worst nightmare. That sadly has become reality for people there today.

BERLUCCHI: It has become reality. It's our -- it's the worst nightmare for our city. I know that our public safety professional train for events like this. Many people in the community, including myself, have watched the news unfold and communities and cities all across this country and around the world and to tell you the truth, it's a human -- it's in human nature and it's natural to wonder when or if an event like this could occur in our city.

And I'm so sad and distressed by the fact that it has unfolded in Virginia Beach today.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Listen, I've been watching --

BERLUCCHI: And our city is in pain and --

LEMON: Go on. I'm sorry.

BERLUCCHI: No. Thank you.

LEMON: Well, there's a bit of a delay so I apologize. I didn't mean to cut you off. But I've got to ask you, councilman.

BERLUCCHI: Sure.

LEMON: You have been watching the coverage immediately after it started, and even on this program, I've spoken to someone who is in the building, I spoke to the mayor earlier and now I'm speaking to you. And it's just surprising to me how you guys can even stand right now and to discuss this. Has it -- has it even set in right now? I would imagine that you're numb?

BERLUCCHI: I appreciated that. Yes, numb is exactly the word that I used earlier. I had a chance to spend time as I mentioned with city staff from virtually every department and agency. And I think it's fairly safe to say that those professionals are numb.

[23:10:06] And what I'm amazed by is that in the face of this tragedy -- keep in mind as you pointed out, these are the victims, many of them, or potentially all of them work for the city. So, the staff here is confronted with dealing with an issue that directly relates to their colleagues. And what I've witnessed is that those people have really fallen into

the comfort of doing their jobs. I do worry about their emotional wellbeing. I worry -- I worry about them very much. But what I can tell you from my observations is that the men and women who work for the City of Virginia Beach are finding comfort in performing their duties and their responsibilities and continuing to serve their city. And that speaks to their strength, that speaks to their ability.

And I'm proud to be associated with Virginia Beach on this day in spite of the tragedy because of the strength I've seen. I've also seen incredible compassion. You can't believe the amount of food and other things that have been sent to city hall by businesses and individuals from all across the city.

People who want to do something to provide comfort and help tonight. And you know, in a tragedy, in a terrible event like this I think it's important to try to find something positive and something good.

And what I know about Virginia Beach from spending almost my entire lifetime here is that it's a place with people who are good and decent and kind and loving. And we're seeing that on full display tonight.

LEMON: Councilman Michael Berlucchi, our thoughts are with you. Thank you for your time.

BERLUCCHI: Thank you.

LEMON: We've got a lot more to come on our breaking news tonight. At least 12 people dead in a mass shooting in Virginia Beach. What we know about the shooter. Does it fit the profile of a workplace shooting? We'll talk about that.

[23:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, here's our breaking news tonight. At least 12 are dead after a disgruntled city employee in Virginia Beach opened fire in the municipal building this afternoon.

The shooter, a certified professional engineer for the city of Virginia Beach in the public utilities department. He was killed in a lengthy gun battle with police.

David Shortell joins me now live from Virginia Beach.

David, thank you so much. I appreciate it. So, listen, you're at the municipal complex right now near the shooting scene. What can you tell us about how the shooting unfolded and the response?

DAVID SHORTELL, CNN JUSTICE PRODUCER: All right, Don. So, this is a municipal complex in downtown, Virginia Beach where there are number of public buildings. We're just a few hundred feet away where the shooting took place at the public works building.

We're in the court house now where they held the press conference in the last hour with a number of law enforcement officials who told us that at that building, that public works building there could have been up to 400 people. That's capacity of that building when it's at its fullest.

Now the worker, the long-time employee of the public works department was there. He entered just after 4 p.m. And police officers were able to respond immediately. That's because the local police department here in Virginia Beach is just a couple buildings away.

So, we've heard from law enforcement earlier who told us that four veteran police officers were able to come and engage with the suspect fairly quickly after he entered the building.

The suspect had entered in, according to police was firing shots at his co-workers on multiple floors of this three-story building. The police officers who came in were able to find him almost immediately by hearing the sound of the gun fire, that police said they were able to really locate him quite quickly before they engaged him in that lengthy gun battle.

Police found that handgun with multiple magazines that had been emptied. So it sounds like this could have been a fairly sustained gun battle.

Don, we also heard from the victim who was a witness, I should say, who was barricaded up on the second floor. She said about 20 of her colleagues, she recalled hearing dozens of gun shots being fired and police officers shouting at this alleged gunman, shouting get on the ground. Get down.

So this was something that she said appeared to be going on for a long time. But as you know, Don, in these cases, the victims, these minutes can seem like hours.

Don, the government worker did sustain serious injuries at the scene. He also was able to injure one of the police officers here. That police officer transported to the hospital tonight. But the police saying it was the bullet proof vest that really saved his life.

LEMON: Yes. David Shortell, joining us very close to the scene from where this all unfolded this evening. David, thank you very much. I appreciate your reporting.

I want to bring in now Jonathan Wackrow a former Secret Service agent, Juliette Kayyem, a former homeland security official in the Obama administration.

Thank you both for joining us. I wish we could have spoken under better circumstances, Juliette and Jonathan.

Juliette, I'm going to start with you. Because the shooter has been identified. Described as a disgruntled employee, an engineer who had served in the military. Does any sort of profile for a workplace shooter, is that what this is?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes. It's absolutely a workplace violence issue and they're not uncommon. Of course, we've seen them many times before because the worker has three important things. They have a motivative (ph), access and familiarity with where they are.

The motive, of course, we've come to at least understand that there was maybe a disagreement or he was about to get fired. Access. And this is really important for viewers to know. This is not an issue of vulnerable building. He likely had, you know, some information that allowed him into the building, whether it was a badge or a swipe card or something like that.

So, this is not something where we can say well, we just need to fortify these buildings and then of course he had familiarity with the grounds and the different floors. This is someone who clearly knew where he was going. I don't know if he was picking particular people.

This is why workplace violence is so scary. But of course, you know, then, you know, because all of those things combined make it a very, very likely incident where you're going to have a high fatality rate like what we saw tonight.

LEMON: Jonathan Wackrow, the shouter used at least two weapons. One of them was a .45 caliber handgun with multiple extended magazines. He also had a silencer. How difficult is to obtain any of these items. Is it that difficult?

JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: So, it depends on what state you're in. But I think what the real important aspect of this is the utilization of the silencer in this type of attack is really a game changer when we talk about the threat dynamics and how we prepare for this.

[23:20:03] Typically, what we think about is we've all heard one hide fight. When you hear the sound of a gun, run, fight, hide, get away from the threat. Address the threat if you have to or hide from the fight.

LEMON: He wanted to increase the number of victims?

WACKROW: Exactly. So, think about this for a minute. You know, we train on the sound. There was no sound because of the utilization. This is a really a major shift in gravity when it comes to how attack, you know, the attack dynamics moving forward. Where you are going to have to go back and retrain around how do we -- you know, mindful that the suppresser was used, how do we retrain the public around situational awareness when we no longer hear the sound of gun violence?

LEMON: Can I ask you something, because I had a guest on earlier I was talking to, Anthony Ferrante who --

WACKROW: Sure.

LEMON: -- who talked about the military training. Will that be part of someone who has military training, they know how to go in, they know how to, they would be better equipped to do something like this.

WACKROW: It's the combat mindset. It's the ability to, you know, transcend beyond the fog of war. This individual by the extended magazines, the utilization of a silencer. He -- this was a well- coordinated, very meticulously thought out attack plan.

You know, so to your point, the military training plays a part of that. He understood tactics. And just think about this. He was a municipal employee. He participated most likely in active shooter drills in the past. He probably knew what the police response was going to be and anticipated that. So, when you talk about this drawn out, you know, gun battle, we typically do not see that. And in this instance, he may have been preparing just for that moment itself.

LEMON: Juliette, listen, you just talked about this and I want you talk a little bit more. You talked about motive and means being central to this tragedy.

KAYYEM: Yes.

LEMON: How do we tackle these issues without getting caught up in the whole politization of guns?

KAYYEM: Well, you know how I feel, I think not talking about guns is actually the political statement. I think that for people who criticize me, for example, as they are right now, for talking about gun, gun control, reasonable gun control and access to guns. I think that's actually the political point. And that's actually the polarization of what happened tonight.

Any crime has motive and means. That's just it. That's all you got. Motive, we're going to find out more what triggered him tonight. But means the ability to kill this many people this quickly. This is the sort of unique American phenomenon.

In my world, right, in homeland security, you look at the risk that cause high -- high probably and high consequence. You sort of don't worry about low probability, low consequence events. And if you look at the numbers, it is gun violence.

And the fact that we're not allowed to talk about that that's viewed as political is actually, you know, in my mind, the ideological position. Rational people can look at these numbers. OK, a certain number of people die from gun violence or two-thirds of people who die from gun violence are because of suicide. The other third of the 40,000 a year basically, are dying because of access to guns.

LEMON: Yes.

KAYYEM: It is just part of the conversation and my worry is, Don, just quickly. If you parse each incident, right, this guy was disgruntled, this one was crazy, that one had a bad mother. You lose the big picture and that picture is these are high probability, high consequence incidents and they all involve guns.

LEMON: But I just -- I think it's fascinating what you just talked about, and I think that's on purpose to get people not to, they say talk about guns. Right? Sort of, to hamstring people where you can't talk about it.

KAYYEM: Yes. LEMON: Uniquely American phenomenon. Just a little bit more about that, Juliette.

KAYYEM: Well, you just don't see number in other countries like this. Look, we have a high suicide rate. So, I don't deny that our gun violence a lot of it or two-thirds of it tends to be -- tends to be -- or is suicide.

But the other third, and especially in this active shooter cases, the uniquely American phenomenon is the use of weaponry as a tactic of disagreements. So that could be whether there's, you know, violence, a fight between two car drivers or -- in lots of instances, a husband against a wife, or boyfriend against the girlfriend.

But we also see the capacity, because of our laws, to kill a lot of people quickly. This is what I want people to pick up on. the ability to kill how many is it tonight? Thirteen. There might by a couple more. That many people in such a short period of time. That is because of the weaponry that we allow on our streets.

LEMON: Yes.

KAYYEM: And that is, you know, in picking up on what Jonathan said and now if we're starting to have these silencers, you don't even have an ability for the community to respond.

LEMON: Yes. It's a 12 people so far. And let's hope there aren't anymore.

KAYYEM: Yes.

LEMON: But talk to me about that, because you mentioned, you said because of the military training he anticipated what law enforcement might do. But that's why I initially did not deter him. They eventually got him, but initially it didn't.

[23:25:02] So, even though the police response here was extremely quick, what more can be done? Because you said, now you're going to have to restart retraining people?

WACKROW: Well, listen. I think this is, you know, we have to look at, you know, at the end of the day we have a shared faith in these types of violent acts.

We have to come together as a community to start looking at early warning signs of behavioral issues and stop them through early intervention. Behavior is continuum. And I think you and I have talked about this in the past where it's not normal for someone to wake up and go to work and kill 12 to 13 people.

It's just -- it' not something that -- you don't make that leap in your behavior. So, there were warning signs. And you know, the Secret Service has done a lot of studies through the National Threat Assessment Center that looked at what patterns are there around these types of mass shooting attacks. And what we've seen time and time again is that people have

telegraphed their activity. They've made concerning, you know, statements prior to an attack that is basically an early warning sign to this violent behavior.

But we have to take a step backwards and start looking at work, within the workplace where are there grievances that weren't addressed, are there behavioral issues that led to discipline.

All of these little things that sometimes we dismissed, we need to start taking a different optic with them and putting them altogether to build out a comprehensive program that looks at behavior that precedes violent acts.

LEMON: Well, let's do something about --

WACKROW: Yes.

LEMON: Let's do something about it. Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you, Juliette. I appreciate it.

Another deadly mass shooting today but what are our leaders in Washington going to do about gun violence? I'm going to speak with Congressman Cedric Richmond. He's next.

[23:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Here's our breaking news tonight. At least 12 people are dead after a mass shooting at a municipal building in Virginia Beach. The gunman, a disgruntled employee who opened fire indiscriminately on multiple floors, he was killed in a long gun battle with police. Four people are hospitalized tonight.

Joining me now to discuss this is Democratic Congressman Cedric Richmond of Louisiana, who as of today is serving as a national co- chairman of Joe Biden's campaign. Thank you for joining us, sir. We appreciate it. I got to talk to you about this breaking news, another mass shooting. This time, it is in Virginia Beach. You now officially the first national co-chairman of the Biden campaign. What will Joe Biden do as president to combat gun violence?

REP. CEDRIC RICHMOND (D), LOUISIANA: Well, Don, let me just first start by offering my prayers and condolences to the people in Virginia Beach, but also saying that what I was taught in Sunday school was that faith without works is dead, and Congress has to do something.

But one of the reasons why I'm supporting Vice President Biden is because he took on the NRA twice and beat them. So, it was the assault weapons ban and when he passed the Brady Bill to require background checks in the first place.

So, if you look at his track record taking on the NRA, I think it's been successful. And we have to do something. We can't rely on Congress. The Republican Party, my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, they're a wholly owned subsidiary of the National Rifle Association. So until the NRA gives them permission to do something, they won't do it.

And that is what we are trying to do. And unfortunately, it leads to these types of events over and over again, very specifically the high capacity cartridges and magazines with the ammunition that allows for somebody to create this mass carnage in such a short period of time.

If you remember, during the assault weapons ban, the most you could have in a magazine or cartridge, I believe the number was 11 bullets if you had one in the chamber. So, those are just simple things he we can do to stop the amount of carnage. But of course we have to focus on mental health and all the other aspects to really deal with it comprehensively.

LEMON: Let me ask you this, Representative Richmond. You know, you mention the things that Joe Biden has done, the vice president has done. How will he be able to break this impasse now? Listen, I mean, we are divided now. How is he going to break this impasse that we have been at for so many years with the NRA? Congressional Republicans are so opposed to passing any legislation that would restrict gun ownership.

RICHMOND: I think you have to lead by example. But while he was in the White House, President Obama appointed him as the head of the White House Task Force on Gun Violence. So, they took executive action, probably over two dozen actions to implement some gun reform. They propose some of the most sweeping gun reforms in our history. However, you write about that.

So I think that the deadlock -- I think what you have to do, one is to lead by example. Two, use the bully pulpit of the presidency for good. That means directly taking on the NRA. But also I think that you just have to make sure that you're dressing it in every manner that you can. I believe that his body of work shows that he would do that.

LEMON: Let's talk about this because you mentioned the former president appointing him. So, you know, as a former chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus, you know how essential the black vote is, especially to the Democratic Party. What does Joe Biden have to offer the black community, your estimation beyond his relationship with President Obama and so on?

RICHMOND: Well, the real question is looking at his entire record. He has a record of accomplishing things and acting when others won't act. So, let me just say that as a former chair of the Congressional Black Caucus, I consider both Kamala and Cory to be dear friends. I consider them to be competent, people of goodwill and very diligent and effective senators.

[23:35:00] But right now, with the Supreme Court at stake with the possibility of this president getting to appoint more Supreme Court justices, we are not fighting to make history here, we are fighting for our future. And so we have to win this.

I mean, everything is at stake in this election. I think that one, that's important. Two, we've seen what the vice president can do. And so I think that's why he's doing so well with African-American voters because of his body of work and the fact that he gets it. And I think that's the biggest compliment you can give to an elected official is that they get it.

He understands what families are going through in terms of trying to pay bills and trying to take care of a sick loved one, trying to make sure that their kids get a quality education, all of those things because he's been there. And his life experiences, I believe, make him the best candidate.

LEMON: Representative Richmond, thank you so much. As a co-chair of the Biden campaign now, I know you're going to be joining us and speaking about him and other issues as well. We appreciate you coming on tonight. Thank you for addressing that issue as well as the breaking news today. We appreciate it.

RICHMOND: Well, thank you, Don. Keep up the pressure on all of the lack of action coming from Congress on gun reform.

LEMON: Thank you, sir. We appreciate it.

The president going against his own party and even his own economic advisers, threatening to impose punishing tariffs on all goods imported from Mexico. He says he wants to punish Mexico. But what will his tariffs cost his own country?

[23:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So President Trump says he will slap new tariffs on all goods imported from Mexico if the country doesn't stop the flow of migrants by June 10th, overruling several of his top advisers. The thing is that's only going to end up forcing you to pay more for anything you get from Mexico, anything that is sold in this country.

Joining me now to discuss are Catherine Rampell and Rob Astorino. They are the experts on this. We will get what they have to say about this.

Good evening to both of you.

Catherine, I think it's pretty clear how you feel about these tariffs. The headline of your piece today, it is in "The Washington Post," you said, "Just a few of the reasons that Trump's Mexico tariffs are deeply stupid." How so?

CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: How much time do we have on this segment?

(LAUGHTER)

RAMPELL: Look, there are so many reasons why this is misguided. I mean, first of all, Americans are going to be paying these tariffs. We already have two studies looking at the incidents of the tariffs that have been imposed so far on China as well as other countries. They are 100 percent being passed along to Americans.

Second of all, it's going to screw up supply chains, all those businesses in the United States that purchase inputs from Mexico, especially the auto industry which is already sort of vulnerable. Right now, it has announced a lot off layoffs before any of this happened.

Most trade that we have with China is what's called intra-party trade, meaning it's a company basically trading with itself, so you're going to raise costs for manufacturers who are based in the United States, who need to buy stuff from across the border often times from their own company, and it's going to raise costs for them. They're probably go having to layoffs.

And beyond all of that, I mean, it gives us a lot less negotiating leverage with China, with Japan, with the E.U., with Mexico for that matter, because Trump has shown time and time again that he can't be trusted to keep his word, right? He just signed a deal with Mexico.

LEMON: Does he understand how tariffs work?

RAMPELL: You know, I go back and forth on this, and I don't know. I know that it has been explained to him that Americans are paying these tariffs. Whether that is being absorbed within his brain, I really don't know.

LEMON: But the question is maybe whether that is being absorbed because -- I mean, it sounds good. Maybe people -- maybe many Americans don't understand how the tariffs work.

ROB ASTORINO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Things might go up. There is no question about it. The avocado you go buy at ShopRite is going to cost a little bit more and so will other imports. I think there's a real frustration with a lot of Americans and this is why you can see, I mean, the latest poll, his job numbers went up to 48.

Leadership has gone up. People are seeing him because there's a catastrophic failure by Republicans and Democrats currently in the Congress and past Republicans and Democratic presidents.

Here's a guy who said when he was running, "I'm going to do something about this immigration system which is completely running us rough shot." And he's the only one willing to do something, seemingly. But I think it's important because --

RAMPELL: If he tanks the Mexican economy, do you think that's going to increase or decrease the number of people trying to cross the border from Mexico to the United States?

ASTORINO: What he is trying to do in Mexico --

RAMPELL: How is that getting tough on him?

ASTORINO: We don't know. Mexico might respond to this. Right now --

RAMPELL: By breaking international law?

ASTORINO: Mexico -- look, here is the deal with Mexico. It takes three weeks for these caravans to go from Guatemala or Belize or Honduras or El Salvador to come up to the United States. Mexico has really tough immigration laws on its own and to allow people to come up through Mexico -- Mexico is looking at the United States and laughing. And they can do something about it. They choose to do something about it.

LEMON: I got to ask you. But isn't that a false argument? I've heard that argument all day. What is that argument that Mexico is laughing because hasn't Mexico increased their efforts to get people to stop crossing the border illegally? You said that they have harsher immigration policies than us. The studies will show --

ASTORINO: When it affects Mexico, they do.

LEMON: Even recently, Mexico has done more to try to stop illegal immigrants from coming into the United States. What more --

ASTORINO: They got to stop it at their southern border, at their southern border.

[23:45:02] That's where they've got to have barricades for a better word. They got to have real enforcement. And when people are coming in, making a mockery of their immigration system and ours, that's where they've got to stop. They can deport people back to their own countries.

For those who are fleeing violence, when they get to Mexico, they have fled the violence. Now they got to enter a system in Mexico where they can be taken care --

LEMON: All right. Let's talk about tariffs now because the treasury secretary doesn't agree with it. Our U.S. trade representative doesn't agree with it. On top of that, these groups, if we can put it up, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the National Association of Manufacturers, the National Retail Federation, the Fresh Produce Association of the Americas, and the list goes on and on.

Are these tariffs really going to solve an immigration crisis because you're doing tariffs on immigration? I mean, is that apples and oranges? What is going to be the cost to our economy?

RAMPELL: It's going to be very painful to our economy. And we've already seen this again with the tariffs that have been implemented so far. We see that the incident of those tariffs is on Americans. There have been estimates for what the likely effects would be for a tariff. Let's say we ratchet up to 20 percent, Trump has said it could go up to as high as 25 percent.

There was an estimate that was put out a couple of years ago by a research and consulting firm that specializes in trade, that found there would be hundreds of thousands of jobs lost. You know, tens of billions of dollars of economic growth lost as a result.

Most of the jobs lost, by the way, would be low and middle skilled workers. This would be quite painful to the United States. And again, I don't see how this is going to achieve any of the objectives that Trump has put forward. LEMON: Yeah.

ASTORINO: Unless it does. We don't know how Mexico is going to react to this. And maybe they do.

RAMPELL: They can't --

LEMON: I'm sorry, guys. Our time is short. I'm sorry, because --

ASTORINO: On getting tough on immigration in their own country?

LEMON: And I got to get to it.

RAMPELL: On turning away asylum seekers.

LEMON: Thank you. Thank you both. I appreciate it. We're going to be right back.

[23:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Here's our breaking news tonight, twelve people dead in a mass shooting in Virginia Beach, four people are hospitalized. The gunman, a disgruntled worker, was killed in a lengthy gun battle with police. Listen to his neighbor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASSETTY HOWERIN, NEIGHBOR OF SHOOTING SUSPECT: He seemed like a nice guy. He introduced himself when we first moved in. That's crazy. It is true that he is dead?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah.

HOWERIN: Jesus Christ.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So are 12 victims. The latest one was just announced in the newsroom. He lived right above you.

HOWERIN: That could have easily been me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: CNN's Brian Todd outside the shooter's house tonight. Brian, police have been investigating there at the shooter's home tonight. We saw the car. We believe it was his car being impounded and taken away by police. What are they looking at?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Don. We are here in front of the house of the suspect, DeWayne Craddock, 40 years old. He lives in this residence. The porch is illuminated over my right shoulder. There are police officers coming out now. They are processing evidence for most of the evening, putting stuff in a bag. We just saw them do that a short time ago.

This is one of the places where they're going to try to find some clues as to a possible motive. Did he leave behind an electronic trail? Maybe they might find that here at his residence. What we do know about the suspect is that he was a long time employee of the City of Virginia Beach. He was a certified professional engineer in the public works section.

We have been told by law enforcement sources that he was disgruntled and of course we know the details of the shooting, that walked into the building at the municipal center shortly after 4:00 p.m. Eastern time and began firing.

He went from floor to floor and they found victims on all three floors. Again, tonight, a key part of this investigation, what was his motive? What set him off? He clearly, from most indications, Don, he went in there looking for battle. He carried two weapons, one of them being a 45- caliber handgun with multiple rounds, extended rounds and a silencer.

He went in apparently ready for battle. And thankfully, the police officers got there quickly. Four of them engaged him and stopped him. Again, piecing together that motive is a key component of the investigation tonight. This is one of the places where it starts, Don. Did he leave behind any clues at his home?

LEMON: Right.

TODD: What was his disposition at work? Some of that information we're going to be learning in the hours and days ahead.

LEMON: CNN's Brian Todd at the suspect's home in Virginia Beach. Brian, thank you very much. A final word before we leave you. Tonight, there are 12 more Americans whose lives have been cut short, and there are 12 families and countless friends and neighbors who have lost loved ones.

I'll say it, this maybe what's often referred to as the new normal, but we cannot accept that. We cannot allow this to be acceptable. I do not know what it will take to gather the will to put an end to this, but we can't go on like this. We can't continue to.

Only a few weeks ago, we reported on a shooting at a synagogue in California. After that, a shooting at a school in Colorado. Tonight, Virginia Beach. This happens all the around our country, all the time. So what are the odds that it's going to happen next, where you live? But because those odds haven't changed much since Columbine or Sandy Hook or Charleston or Las Vegas or Parkland, so many others, far too many to name, far too many dead Americans.

[23:55:04] These are our people. Just hours after the massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, a shooting that left 17 people dead, this is what I had to say about the odds.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Every single one of us is just playing the odds at this point. The odds that in a country of 325 million souls that we won't be the ones who get hit by the next bullets that start flying, we won't be the one that gets that phone call about someone you love who did, your son, your daughter, your brother, your sister, your spouse or your parent, even a friend, anyone you know, the phone call that changes your life.

But with every deadly shooting in this country, the odds get worse and worse and worse. Are you really willing to keep playing those odds? Your life is too precious for that. The lives of loved ones are too precious. The lives of the people in our cities and towns are too precious. Have we forgotten that life is a gift?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: CNN tracks the deadliest mass shootings in modern U.S. history. In the past decade alone, over 333 people have been killed in mass shootings. That's only counting shootings where at least eight people died.

Tonight, 12 deaths need to be added to that list. We have done next to nothing to change the odds in favor of more Americans living rather than dying. Our hearts are in Virginia Beach tonight, as they have been in so many places, so many other towns before.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)