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Don Lemon Tonight

Nine Witnesses Lined Up For Their Impeachment Inquiry Testimony; All Eyes On Gordon Sondland On Whether He'll Change His Tune; Bill Taylor's Aide With Vivid Memory On What He Heard; Transcripts Of Impeachment Testimony By Diplomats, David Hale And David Holmes Released; GOP Shaken By State Department Aide's Testimony; President Trump Suggests Firing Impeachment Witnesses, Aides Warn It Could Be Seen As Retaliation; President Trump's Pattern Of Intimidation. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired November 18, 2019 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: "CNN TONIGHT" with the man, D. Lemon gets an early start on the show now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: You gave me a whole 10 -- 10 extra seconds. Listen, you did a great job with this.

Look, 213 pages from for Holmes' testimony, a 198. These are the highlights. And what is coming out of this testimony is really quite surprising, and quite shocking, some of it confirming what we knew, what they said already and others adding to this whole scenario that there was a quid pro quo.

Can the Democrats prove it? I don't know. But it certainly is compelling testimony from both witnesses. And then there's more taking place this week. This is a big week ahead, Chris.

CUOMO: This is the week. And I think that -- here's the good news. I had this moment of clarity in one of the commercials tonight.

LEMON: Wow.

CUOMO: I was like, man, all these names, all these acronyms, all these agencies. How am I going to do this?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: David Hale, David --

CUOMO: Do I have to do a murder board. But then I realized something? They're all saying the same damn thing. It doesn't matter who you ask.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Ukraine was freaked out. They were asking us what to do. They didn't want to do this. They didn't want to get involved. They couldn't figure out where the aid was. They really wanted this meeting. We couldn't get the aid. They wouldn't give it to them. The guy is on the phone with the president --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- shouting so loud he's got the phone out here. He's saying, yes, the president doesn't care about anything but the Bidens. What happened and why is clear. The question is the consequence.

LEMON: Right. And people who didn't necessarily know each other. I mean, they have heard --

CUOMO: Right.

LEMON: -- of each other, worked at the same, you know, for the same place, but they didn't know each other and they're all pretty much corroborating what the whistleblower said.

Here's an interesting conversation that I had -- or I'm going to have it later on because, you know, you and I talk. John Kasich and I talk occasionally, right, to try to figure out, you know, what is going on in this world.

He -- he believes and I believe this as well, that maybe over this holiday, people are sitting at home in front of their televisions. The TV's on CNN or it's on Fox or it's on MSNBC. It's on in the background. You may have a football game on now and then.

But people are going to start tuning in to this, and people are starting to pay attention to this now. Before, they're taking care of their families. It's all just in the background. Like you said, my gosh, there are too many names, too many different departments.

But I think it is -- it is snowballing. There's a domino effect where people are starting to say, wait a minute. There's another person. There's a decorated war hero. There's someone whose career who is serving her country in a different way, who seems to be credible.

There's another person who seems to be credible. They're saying the same thing. Whether or not they think it's impeaching -- it requires impeaching the president, they certainly do think it's troubling.

CUOMO: It is troubling.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: I mean, look, what happened --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Finally, someone is -- finally people are starting to say it.

CUOMO: -- and why it happened is obvious.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Now, you know, look, we know the range. We got it in our families. We got it in our friends. Some people are saying what we're saying right now because they're just watching it. They're open.

Other people are looking at it through the red or blue lens --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- and it's either this guy has got to go, or it's they're all like this. They're just out to get him.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: So, I'm just praying for a lot of trip tow fan for those families so that they can all just go to sleep and not start fighting with each other about this --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- because we got bigger problems. But what happened and why, I'm telling you Don, a first week law student could pass this test.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: It's about the consequences. That's the debate to have.

LEMON: You know I grew up in a very ruby red state who has re-elected a Democratic governor this week.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: John Bel Edwards.

LEMON: The president had been down there for -- had been there three times. The vice president was down there once. My mom said, you know, they work the women -- especially African-Americans, but especially black women work their butts off, and she says actually Trump was on the ballot.

They are sick of the division and all the rhetoric. But I have -- I come from a very ruby red state and I have friends who are Trump supporters. And they are not happy about that. They believe what you just said that this is, the Democrats were just - it's a witch hunt and they're going after this president. So, whether this the coming week is going to convince them, we shall see, my friend. By the way --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: They can say it's vindictive, but they're not going to be able to say it's a witch hunt.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Because these are all ruby red Americans. You know, these are -- these are red-blooded Americans serving their country --

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: -- who are saying these things. LEMON: John Kasich is coming up. You don't want to miss that

conversation. So, you watch --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I don't. But I don't like that you put me in the same category as him.

LEMON: Well.

CUOMO: Like you said, you and I talk, I talk with John Kasich.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: That's what I am to you, I'm just like another Kasich?

LEMON: No. No, no. He's better looking. See you later.

CUOMO: Better looking.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Better pedigree.

CUOMO: Yes.

CUOMO: Better for the country.

LEMON: Yes. And he's a nicer person.

CUOMO: But he doesn't buy you lunch as often; I promise you that.

LEMON: Well, he's -- that's I mean. He's smarter. You just prove my point.

CUOMO: Have a great show.

LEMON: See you next time. Thank you very much.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

And really the hits just keep on coming for this president. It is the eve of a huge week of impeachment testimony. We just talked about it, and this is our breaking news right now.

Transcripts released just tonight from the closed-door testimony of Bill Taylor's aide. His name is David Holmes. And State Department official, another David, he's name is David Hale. And we're going to dig into both of them. We just got it a little while ago. Chris had some of it.

[22:05:01]

David Mattingly is up on -- Phil Mattingly -- excuse me -- is up on Capitol Hill. He's going to go through it a little bit more with you. But just stay tuned. But I want you to listen to this from Holmes, talking about the call

that he -- the call that he apparently overheard Sondland and the president and why it was so shocking.

"This was an extremely distinctive experience in my foreign service career," he says. "I've never seen anything like this. Someone calling the president from a mobile phone at a restaurant and then having a conversation of this level of candor, colorful language. There's just so much about the call that was so remarkable, that I remember it vividly."

When something like that happens, right? When something is remarkable, it stands out in your mind.

And then there is this. Making it clear that the Ukrainians knew exactly what they were dealing with in Rudy Giuliani, and I quote here again.

"They viewed him as a significant individual in terms of their relationship with the United States."

Holmes laying out the whole shakedown in just one sentence here. Quote, "I think the Ukrainians gradually came to understand that they were being asked to do something in exchange for the meeting and the security assistance hold being lifted."

That was his testimony. That is his testimony. And then there's the testimony from State Department official, another David as I said, David Hale, who says that Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, who just can't seem to defend his own department, that he called Fox News, Sean Hannity, about Hannity's promotion of a narrative against then- Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch.

Quote, "It did come up at some point with the secretary. I understand that he did call Sean Hannity."

Pompeo also apparently called Rudy Giuliani. I don't believe -- this is a quote. "I don't believe this at the time, but he did make two calls to Mayor Giuliani."

A lot more to come on all of this for you, and we're also learning tonight about what looks like an awful -- an awful lot like a campaign to take down witnesses as the impeachment threat grows and the president lashes out.

Sources telling CNN that he wants to fire witnesses who still have White House jobs. His advisers warning that that could be seen as retaliation, especially in the wake of the president's real-time attack -- remember that -- on former Ambassador Yovanovitch as she testified on Friday, an attack that Adam Schiff called witness intimidation.

But now in what may be an effort to placate the president, aides are exploring whether they can send some witnesses back to their departments ahead of schedule. That as we're learning tonight that several Republicans were more

shaken by the testimony of David Hale -- David Holmes, I should say, about that Trump/Sondland phone call, than they let on.

You remember Holmes describing the conversation he heard between the president and the E.U. ambassador, and multimillion-dollar Trump donor Gordon Sondland on the terrace of a crowded restaurant in Kiev.

Sondland telling the president that Ukraine's President Zelensky -- his words, these are not my words, these are his words -- loves your ass. The president asking, so, "he's going to do the investigation?" Then Sondland replying, "he's going to do it." Adding that Zelensky will do anything you ask him to.

Tonight, we're going to take you to that restaurant, to the Kiev restaurant where all of this went down. That is interesting. See some of the pictures there.

That as this is shaping up to be the biggest week yet in this impeachment inquiry. Nine current and former government officials testifying on live TV. Millions of people listening from coast to coast.

Buckle up, buttercup, because there's one thing that we have learned from the first round. It's that bombshells can come at any moment. And with so many witnesses set to testify starting in just a few hours, by the way, we can expect to learn a lot about who knew what and when in this Ukraine pressure campaign.

Here's what to watch for, OK? It all begins tomorrow morning at 9 a.m. Jennifer Williams starts it off. Jennifer Williams is an aide to the Vice President Mike Pence and a career foreign service officer. She testifies alongside Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman. You heard that name before. That's a Ukraine expert on the NSC, the National Security Council.

It looks like Vindman may be the subject of a campaign to discredit him as ex-NSC official Tim Morrison -- I know it's a lot of names -- and Senator Ron Johnson are raising questions about his judgment.

A source telling CNN tonight Vindman is prepared to answer those questions in his public testimony tomorrow.

[22:10:01]

Two Trump campaign advisers telling CNN they hope the president doesn't tweet about Vindman tomorrow. Good luck with that.

And expect fireworks if there is a repeat performance by Republicans who ask questions that seem designed to out the whistleblower during Vindman's closed-door testimony.

And then there is this Jennifer Williams that we're talking about, right, who sure got under the president's skin with her closed-door testimony released over the weekend, saying that his request on the July 25th call for investigations was unusual and inappropriate. The president, true to form, lashing out and calling her a never-

Trumper even though she works in the vice president's office and was handpicked by his own national security adviser. She's a never-Trumper who works for the administration and the vice president. OK.

One White House official telling CNN Williams is, quote, "the most professional person in this building," and that is just the morning session that I told you about.

At 2.30, we're going to hear testimony from Kurt Volker. You've heard that name before too. He's the former special envoy for Ukraine, who quit one day, just one day after the release of the whistleblower's complaint. He testifies side by side with Tim Morrison.

Volker, one of the three amigos with Gordon Sondland and Rick Perry, who ran a rogue policy in Ukraine along with Rudy Giuliani and Mick Mulvaney. A rogue policy that Bill Taylor, the top diplomat in Ukraine, called highly irregular.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM TAYLOR, FORMER UNITED STATES AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: I encountered an irregular informal channel of U.S. policymaking with respect to Ukraine.

A channel that included then special envoy Kurt Volker, U.S. Ambassador to the European Union, Gordon Sondland, Secretary of Energy Rick Perry, White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney, and as I subsequently learned, Mr. Giuliani.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

And testifying side by side with Volker, Tim Morrison, the former NSC aide who resigned on the eve of his closed-door testimony just last month. He said Sondland told him he was acting at the direction of the president when he urged Ukraine to announce the investigations the president wanted.

Sondland himself testifies Wednesday morning beginning at nine, and he can expect to face a lot of uncomfortable questions about his suddenly recalled meeting September 1st, a meeting with a top Zelensky aide where he said Ukraine would not get that desperately needed $400 million until they announced the investigation -- the investigations the president wanted.

Remember, he suddenly remembered that, not to mention questions about that phone call with the president in that Kiev restaurant. And if Sondland learned anything from the trial of Roger Stone, he'll be very careful to tell the truth. The whole truth, and nothing the whole truth, and nothing but. He's got a lot to lose.

That afternoon, Pentagon official Laura Cooper testifies. Along with State Department official David Hale. Thursday morning -- I know you need a scorecard for all of this, right? Thursday morning it is former NSC official Fiona Hill, who we learned tonight testified that she knew in May that Ukraine's president felt pressured to investigate Joe Biden and his son. David Holmes testifies alongside her.

So, whew, that's where we are tonight, on the eve of what could be the biggest week in the impeachment inquiry. All of it live on TV. Listen carefully and remember to focus on the facts, not the shiny objects, not the people trying to divert your attention. Right?

Remember, focus on the substance. Facts first. A lot more details tonight from that Trump/Sondland phone call in the middle of a Kiev restaurant and why David Holmes was so disturbed by it.

We've also learned a brand-new name in the investigation. Phil Mattingly, John Dean here to discuss next.

[22:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So here is our breaking news happening just a little bit ago.

It actually happened on Chris' show and we're going through these transcripts now from Bill Taylor's aide David Holmes released just tonight. It's full of stunning details about that phone call that he overheard between the president and Ambassador Gordon Sondland. He also testifies about someone whose name we haven't heard before.

Phil Mattingly, John Dean, Catherine Rampell, Max Boot are here to discuss. Good evening one and all.

Phil, you had the breaking news earlier first here. So, let's -- we have these two new closed-door transcripts tonight. Let's start with David Holmes' testimony, and we're getting some more color on that Trump/Sondland restaurant call. What do you know?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I think one of the big questions we had on Friday when we got the opening statement from David Holmes that laid out in detail, rather explicit detail how this conversation actually occurred was how is it possible sitting at a restaurant you can hear what the president is saying to the U.S. ambassador to the E.U., and Holmes actually goes through that in this testimony.

Some caller, saying, he was at a restaurant, sitting in a small table. He was so close to Sondland they were actually sharing an appetizer. And he said when the call actually connected with President Trump, he says, quote, "He sort of -- Sondland sort of winced."

The chairman response, he moved his head away from the phone?" And Holmes says, winced and then moved the phone away from his ear because the volume was loud. And then for the first portion of the call, that's how he was listening to it, and then he stopped doing that. I don't know if he turned the volume down or he got used to it and he changed.

[22:19:58]

The point being here, Don, is that when you look at how this actually occurred, you recognize that it was the sheer volume of things. And based on his recollection as we dig through this 200-plus page of testimony, he has a very clear understanding of what the president was explicitly saying.

And that's why this was so important when it was unveiled last Wednesday in Ambassador William Taylor's testimony and why it was so important in the closed-door deposition and why it will be so important on Thursday when David Holmes testifies publicly.

LEMON: Yes. He said he didn't know, as you said if he turned the volume down or he just got used to that. But I know what happened but -- I don't know what happened but for the first part he was pulling it away from his head.

Phil, at a certain point, am I correct that Holmes took notes in his phone? Is that right?

MATTINGLY: Yes. And this is another interesting development. We were wondering how he had such a clear recollection. Obviously, this was a vivid conversation that would be difficult for anybody to forget, but it turns out he testifies that when he realized that this was a diplomatic conversation going on, one that he could actually hear, remember, he's a note-taker by trade to some degree at the U.S. embassy in Ukraine.

He actually took out his phone, hit the notes app, and started tapping out what he was hearing both on the Ukraine side of things and also the further conversation about the possible release of ASAP Rocky, the rapper that had been detained overseas as well.

So, he started tapping all this out. That's why he has such an explicit recollection of what was said and that's why he was able to relay it directly to lawmakers, Don.

LEMON: Who would have thought ASAP Rocky and as -- this is madness. John, let me bring you in. Holmes talks about his impression after overhearing President Trump asked Sondland about Ukraine investigation.

He said, "This was an extremely distinctive experience in my foreign service career. I've never seen anything like this, someone calling the president from a mobile phone at a restaurant and then having a conversation of this level of candor, colorful language. There's just so much about the call that was so remarkable that I remember it vividly."

As Phil said, vividly. So, Holmes in his opening statement said that Sondland told him Trump didn't give an ish, right, an s about Ukraine. What's your impression of Holmes as a witness, John?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think he's a wonderful witness. That question about the president not giving an s, when I -- I've made it through about 70 pages of the transcript in the short time I've had it, and I read that section, and they're actually leading questions.

He asked Sondland if the president gave an s, and the president -- and Sondland responded back, he didn't give an s.

Don, one of the other interesting things that I was alert to was the fact that Holmes reported that Russia either owns or has a stake in all three of the mobile telephone companies in Ukraine.

LEMON: So, they could be listening.

DEAN: And they just -- no question they have a record of this conversation. So, we may hear a recording of it one day.

LEMON: Yes. I want to read this, Max. It's from David Holmes' testimony. He was asked about the security risk at the restaurant. He said, "did that cause you any concern about the security of the phone calls we were just talking about, right? It was surprising to me, he says, that he -- yes, in my experience, generally phone calls with the president are very sensitive and handled accordingly, and making a cell phone call from Ukraine, is there a risk of Russians listening in?"

And the answer is "I believe at least two of the three, if not all three mobile networks are owned by Russian companies or have significant stakes in those. We generally assume that mobile communications in Ukraine are being monitored."

Listen, John Dean just brought that up. This is really stunning, and it really shows how all eyes will be on Sondland when he testifies publicly. Do you think Sondland will tell the whole truth about the conversations with this president?

MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: I think he'll have the choice between telling the whole truth or risking the kind of repercussions that Roger Stone suffered last week, and that was a very fortuitous verdict against Roger Stone because that's what a demonstration of what happens when you lie under oath.

And just coming back to this phone call that David Holmes witnessed, Don, I mean this is really kind of an example of scandal fatigue because there's so many scandals here, we lose sight of the smaller ones. And this is one of the smaller and more significant ones.

Remember, in 2016, President Trump, then-candidate Trump, spent the whole year saying lock her up. And why did he want to lock up Hillary Clinton? Because she allegedly transmitted confidential or secret material on a non-confidential or secure medium via e-mail.

But what is Donald Trump doing here having these conversations on a mobile phone that the whole world can listen in on, and from what we know, this is not an unusual occurrence. Trump does this all the time.

LEMON: And by the way, the Hillary Clinton thing was proven from investigators, that that did not occur.

BOOT: Right, exactly.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: And just a couple of weeks ago, it did not --

BOOT: She was ultimately exonerated.

LEMON: -- it didn't get big headlines.

BOOT: Right.

LEMON: Catherine, I want to bring you in on this. let me read this. It say, "I think the Ukrainians gradually came to understand that they were being asked to do something in exchange for the meeting and the security assistance hold being lifted."

[22:25:02]

He is saying Ukraine was aware of the shakedown, no?

CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I think that's explicitly what he's saying. And what we're seeing is that this administration or people who have -- people -- people who are either in political appointments or career officials are unable to keep the many lies straight that Trump is asking them to continue perpetrating.

Which is presumably why Trump, when he was -- when he submitted his answers to Mueller, for example, he just said, I don't know over and over again or I don't recall, I don't recall, I don't recall. I don't remember, which helped him of course not have to remember what the lies were.

But you're seeing members of this administration having to tie themselves into knots and we're still finding that they're contradicting each other right and left.

Sondland, as has been brought up, may yet have to amend things that he said. Volker may yet have to amend things that he said given that the statements made under oath by some people have been contradicted by statements made under oath by other people.

LEMON: Yes. Everyone, stay with me. Our breaking news tonight, the House releasing more transcripts of closed-door testimony in the impeachment inquiry.

Sean Hannity. Why did Sean Hannity come up? Next.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So here is the breaking news at this hour. We're talking about transcripts that were just released tonight from the closed-door testimony of diplomats David Hale and David Holmes. Back with me, Phil Mattingly, John Dean, Catherine Rampell, and Max Boot. So, Phil, the other testimony out tonight is State Department official David Hale. What are we learning?

MATTINGLY: Yes, Don. One of the things that I've been struck by in reading more pages of depositions than I ever wanted to in the history of my life is how when you go through these depositions of individuals who may have worked together, but didn't know each other that well, worked in different agencies, different parts of the government, how much specific details line up with one another. And on this specific issue, David Hale talking about the freeze of the U.S. security assistance to Ukraine.

He says, quote, and I advocated strongly for resuming the assistance as did every other agency represented there with the exception of one, which was the OMB. And the question it asks, and did you have confidence that the aid would be ultimately released? He responded, well, OMB said that when asked by someone, perhaps Charles Kupperman, who was the deputy national security adviser, they said they had guidance from the president and from acting Chief of Staff Mulvaney, to freeze the assistance.

So, I went back to the office and sent a note to the secretary, Secretary Pompeo, through staff reporting this, and saying that it seemed to me this was going to have to be resolved at the principal level and that it was unlikely that the OMB would be willing -- would be shifting their position at the principal level given what we had just heard. And therefore it would have to be resolved, if he wished to have it resolved, directly with the president. So, I left it at that, and time passed.

Let me explain what that actually means here. The Office of Management and Budget has made clear to several different agencies that the president himself ordered the White House chief of staff -- acting White House Chief of Staff, Mick Mulvaney, to tell the OMB to freeze the assistance. This has been corroborated by several witnesses, making clear there is a direct line from the freeze from the president on down.

How that actually happened, why the rationale for that still is a little bit of a dark spot here, but there's no question about it, and Hale backs that up once again. This order came from the president through Mick Mulvaney down to all of the government agencies, and that's why the nearly $400 million in U.S. security assistance was frozen.

LEMON: Wow. So a lot of reading for Phil. A lot of reading for John. John must have taken that Evelyn Woods speed reading class.

DEAN: I did.

LEMON: You did actually? It worked because you're already 70 pages in. There are people on the panel who are probably too young to even remember that. John, when you hear that guidance from, you know, the president and Mulvaney, what are you thinking?

DEAN: Well, what my immediate reaction was, Hale is a GOP witness, as is Morrison and Volker, and it doesn't sound like Hale is going to help them out a lot given his testimony. And he obviously knows how to stop occurred and that's not favorable to Mr. Trump.

LEMON: Catherine, we're learning from Hale that Pompeo spoke to Hannity about Yovanovitch, spoke to Giuliani twice. What does that say about Pompeo, I mean, speaking to them but declining to publicly support his ambassador?

RAMPELL: I think it says that not only are there lots of vacancies throughout the federal government, but apparently our foreign policy has been outsourced to the president's private attorney and his favorite TV anchor, which is a bit disturbing. I don't remember the Senate having advice and consent responsibilities for those particular appointments, but there you go. Clearly the president and his most senior underlings all trust people like Sean Hannity much more than they trust their own Senate-confirmed appointees.

LEMON: Yeah. Max, I just wanted to read this tweet from CNN's Brian Stelter. He said earlier this month Hannity told me through a spokesperson, I have never been contacted about Ukraine by Secretary Pompeo, anyone else at the State Department. He denied it again tonight by the way, that he ever talked to Pompeo. What do you think about this?

BOOT: Well, based on, you know, Sean Hannity's record of veracity or lack thereof, it's a shock that he's not actually serving in the administration because everybody in this administration seems to lie like crazy, including Mike Pompeo and Sean Hannity fits right in. I mean this is just such a disgusting spectacle, Don, what's going on here, that, you know, the president hijacked U.S. foreign policy.

[22:35:06]

He extorted Ukraine into trying to help him politically. He held hostage military aid that Congress had appropriated. They smeared and fired one of the most distinguished ambassadors the United States has, Ambassador Yovanovitch, who testified last week. And at the same time they were plotting with people like Rudy Giuliani and Sean Hannity.

This is truly a mind-boggling corruption of U.S. foreign policy, and I'm sure John Dean can confirm this. This is off the charts. This is well beyond anything that Richard Nixon or any other U.S. President ever possibly did.

LEMON: Thank you all. Get some sleep. Got an early day. Phil, rest up. Eat your Wheaties, man. There's a lot going on. Sources telling CNN that some Republicans are, quote, shaken by some of the testimony released tonight. Is John Kasich also shaken? I'm going to ask him -- there he is -- next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:40:00]

LEMON: We're learning tonight that several Republicans were shaken by the testimony of David Holmes about the Trump/Sondland phone call than they admitted, more shaken than they admitted. Joining me now to discuss, the former Ohio Governor John Kasich. Hey, John, good to see you. I hope you got a good weekend. Thank you so much. This is what Republican sources are telling our Jamie Gangel, that Holmes' testimony has shaken GOP lawmakers more than they let on publicly. Never mind the whole security lapse in the restaurant, he heard the president directly talk about investigations and that President Zelensky would do whatever President Trump wanted. It's devastating to this president, no?

FMR. GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Don, listen. The politicians in the Party right now in Washington, as I talked to some friends about, they are -- they are not leading indicators. They're lagging indicators. And as you and I talked a little bit earlier today, I think people are beginning to kind of -- a kind of paying attention -- a little bit of this now.

You know, most Americans as we talked are taking care of their kids and putting food on the table and doing their jobs. I happen to believe -- and I said this to you last week -- the attack on Yovanovitch, when the president was tweeting and everything, I think that's something that people say, that doesn't sound good. Presidents shouldn't be doing that. And there's been a steady -- and we talked about this from the very first day. There's a steady reporting on all of this, and now a guy who hears a -- overhears a phone conversation, everybody can relate to that, right, Don? I mean, we're on the phone, we can hear =- I mean, my wife says I can hear you talking all the time. Can you be quiet?

LEMON: And you can hear the person on the other end.

KASICH: And so, that something that -- you know, people can get that, Don. They understand it. And when these things become more understandable -- and what were they talking about honey -- then I think people start to kind of wake up. And as that happens, we'll see where it goes. But the politicians are always going to lag. They're never going to be in front, very few. They're going to be lagging, and then it's going to be the public. It's going to be the people that have to move this thing along.

LEMON: Yes. The former Secretary of State Rex Tillerson was asked about President Trump's attempting to shake down Ukraine. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REX TILLERSON, SECRETARY OF STATE: Early asking for personal favors and using United States asset as collateral is wrong. There's just no two ways about it. So if you're seeking some kind of personal gain and you're using whether it's American foreign aid or American weapons or American influence, that's wrong. And I think everyone understands that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Wow. So he says everyone understands that, but not a lot of Republicans are saying so, John.

KASICH: Again, Don, they're lagging indicators. They're people that are going to lag behind the public opinion. That's pretty strong from Tillerson, and, you know, the attacks that were made on Kelly, the same thing, the former chief of staff who said, you know, you've got to have somebody there that's strong.

I mean, it's interesting that those people are speaking out. And then I heard today that the Secretary of State, who I don't -- I've never met. I don't know him, but refused to sort of directly say that his people are doing a great job in the State Department, kind of defers. You know, I have a hard time with that, Don. I try to put myself in a position like that and think about, what would I do?

It's easy to be up in the stands, but, look, I wouldn't have gone in the administration under any set of circumstances. So if you're in there and you see these things that are happening and you know that they're wrong, why do you keep hanging around? You know, it's just -- why do you keep hanging around there? I don't know. And give these people credit who have gone to testify. You know, they put their necks on the line. They deserve a lot of credit.

LEMON: OK. Listen, why do you say -- because, you know, here's what I think. I think that people watch a whole lot of television during the holidays. Thanksgiving's coming up, Christmas coming up. People are home, right? They have some time off. And I told you this. Television is on in the background. You know, you got the news. You got CNN. You may have Fox, whatever, MSNBC, whatever you want to listen to. You got a little football maybe.

KASICH: And football.

LEMON: Right? So you got that. But then you have people -- you start paying attention to things that you don't when you're in your regular routine, when you're on your grind as they say. And so what leads you to believe -- you keep saying -- you called me and said, listen, I think people are starting to pay attention. Why do you think people are starting now?

KASICH: Because there's some things that have happened that just kind of have hit the social media in such a way that people can get it. It's like yelling at that or you know, attacking that woman, distinguished woman ambassador. People are like, that's not right.

[22:45:05]

And then overhearing a phone conversation, and then tomorrow Vindman is going to be testifying, and he's going to have -- you know, he's going to have his uniform on. He's going to look terrific. These are the kinds of things when we talk about --

LEMON: Are you hearing people talk about it, though? I heard you on that when you said about the witnesses.

KASICH: I think -- I'll tell you what I hope will happen over thanksgiving. I hope people will gather together. They're not going to yell at each other about Trump, although that's happened. I hope that they'll sit down and say, what do you think about it? Because they're talking -- they're more and more aware of it. Don, I talked to a guy today who told me that, you know, 40 percent of the public is just not engaged. They're not really reading much in the newspapers. They're not watching much of this.

I believe, because I can feel it, I can hear it -- that's my intuition. That's what I do. That's what I've done all my life. I'm getting the sense now that people are saying, there's something not right here. Now, where they're going to go -- and you know what I think probably at the end? Republicans are going to say -- see if this will be borne true. Republicans are going to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, this was all wrong, whatever, but let the people decide.

That's why I think, and I think that's why Pelosi put that memo out today saying that we have a responsibility when we see things that are wrong. But I think a lot of Republicans at the end are going to say, you know, let's wait till the next election. That's where I think it's going.

LEMON: We're out of time. And I hope we get this somewhere in the show, but I want to talk about, you know, President Obama with this (inaudible) about Democrats about not rebuilding the system.

KASICH: Yes, that's a big, big story.

LEMON: But we have been talking about going too far to the left. Yes, but I got to run.

KASICH: We are going to do that the next time.

LEMON: He said people want to improve America or the system. They don't want to tear it down and start over. Thank you.

KASICH: Let's talk about that sometime. That's an important, very important discussion. Thank you, Don. Good to see you.

LEMON: Have a good night.

KASICH: All right.

LEMON: The president wants impeachment witnesses out of his administration, but he's also publicly attacking them and trying to smear their reputations. But does that add up to witness intimidation?

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[22:50:00]

LEMON: So, as we have been saying here this is a major week in the impeachment hearings. Nine people schedule to testify publicly, but as President Trump trying to intimidate the witnesses? When we examine his reaction to testimony so far, the answer is clearly yes. He's already going after Jennifer Williams.

Jennifer Williams, testifies tomorrow. She was on the infamous July 25th phone call where Trump pressured Ukraine's president to investigate Joe Biden. She's already testified behind closed-doors, calling the president's request unusual and inappropriate. And he doesn't like that she is now going to answer questions publicly, so he's trying to intimidate her.

Tweeting over the weekend this, tell Jennifer Williams whoever that is to read both transcripts of the presidential calls to see the just released statement from Ukraine. Then she should meet with the other never Trumpers who I don't know and mostly never even heard of and work out a better presidential attack. It is an intimidation tactic. A form of attack against people he considers partisan.

And then, Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, he is the National Security Council's top Ukraine expert who also heard the July 25th call. He is testifying publicly tomorrow as well. The president accused him of being a never Trumper as well after his closed-door testimony. Two trump campaign advisers tells CNN tonight that they have got their fingers crossed that Trump doesn't tweet about Vindman tomorrow, because he is the recipient of a purple heart and attacks on him so far have fallen flat.

And last week, just hours before Ambassador Bill Taylor, at the top here. And State Department official George Kent who is at the bottom here. They were the first to testify publicly. Trump tried to intimidate them by tweeting out never Trumpers. He called them never- Trumpers again in capital letters.

And then there's finally here, Marie Yovanovitch. Marie Yovanovitch is the former ambassador to Ukraine who was ousted by President Trump earlier this year. And she was testifying publicly on Friday. The president attacked her in a tweet saying everywhere Marie Yovanovitch went turned bad. That prompted this response from Intel Chairman Adam Schiff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): You saw today witness intimidation in real- time by the president of the United States. Once again going after this dedicated and respected career public servant. In an effort to not only chill her but to Capitol Hill others who may come forward. We take this kind of witness intimidation and obstruction of inquiry very seriously.

Now the president in real-time is attacking you. What affect do you think that has on other witnesses' willingness to come forward and expose wrong doing?

FMR. AMB. MARIE YOVANOVITCH, AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Well, it's very intimidating.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: The loyal soldier to President Trump, the Secretary of State Mike Pompeo refused to specifically defend Ambassador Yovanovitch and Taylor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: I always defend State Department employees, it's the greatest diplomatic court in the history of the world. Very proud of the team.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But the president made a tweet. Yovanovitch appearing saying that everything, everywhere that she went turned bad. Is it an assessment that you agree with? You've known her? POMPEO: I don't have anything to say. I'll defer to the White House

about how particular statements and more like that. I don't have anything else to say about the Democrats impeachment proceedings.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So back to President Trump now. Trying to intimidate witnesses is not unusual. He has a pattern of behavior of threatening people he deems disloyal. After his former lawyer and fixer Michael Cohen turned on him and pleaded guilty to crimes. The president took to Twitter, trying to influence the judge in the case and trying to intimidate Cohen's family.

[22:55:05]

And I quote here, Michael Cohen asked the judge -- asked judge for no prison time. You mean he can do all of the terrible unrelated to Trump things having to do with fraud, big loans, tax etcetera and not serve a long prison term? He makes up stories to get a great and already reduced deal for himself and get his wife and father-in-law who has the money off Scott free. He lied for this outcome and should in my opinion serve a full and complete sentence.

Not the first time the president has tried to intimidate people he sees as disloyal. Our breaking news tonight Congress releasing closed- door testimony from two impeachment inquiry witnesses and we're learning about the president's call with the E.U. Ambassador that has Republicans shaken. We'll have all the details. Next.

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