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Don Lemon Tonight
GOP's Witness Turns 180?; Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman Not Affected By Dirty Tactics; Key Impeachment Testimony Points To Evidence Of Shakedown; Interview With Rep. Raja Krishnamoorthi (D-IL) About The Impeachment Hearings; U.S. Ambassador To E.U. To Testify Tomorrow On Conversations With Trump On Ukraine Investigations; Republicans Use Impeachment Hearings To Question Loyalty Of Decorated Army Veteran Speaking Out Against Trump. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired November 19, 2019 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: "CNN TONIGHT" with Don Lemon starts right now, and that bolo is Gordon Sondland, Don. he testifies tomorrow.
(CROSSTALK)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: I was going to say, what happened to the bolo?
CUOMO: That's where it is. That's the bolo.
LEMON: He's on the hot seat tomorrow. I think with all the witnesses and out of everyone here -- well, besides Rudy Giuliani and the president, he's the one that's most in peril because either he gets perjury, you know, if he doesn't change and then there is evidence to the contrary, or if he changes, right, he's going -- he's going to get attacked by Republicans. And if he doesn't, he may get attacked by Democrats.
So he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. But I think he can't have a -- perjury is the most serious, so I think he's probably going to tell the truth, or he should at least. He should have learned from, you know, Roger Stone, on and on. But he's the one that's the most --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Well, the question is what did he -- I agree with you, but what did he learn from Roger Stone? Roger Stone arguably -- you know, look, I've known Stone a long time. He called himself a dirty trickster. He knew they were going to get his communications.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Arguably, he knew what would come out to be true would be bad for the president, and he may have taken a conviction because of it, and you're not hearing the president say he's going to pardon him.
LEMON: Yes. CUOMO: Imagine how that silence is playing in Sondland's head right now. He's the only guy, Don, that people say they heard say, if you want this money, you got to give the president the Bidens.
LEMON: And he's the guy behind that infamous phone call in the Kiev restaurant, in the restaurant in Kiev, right, that was so loud, that he's -- and you've been there before. You've been there before. Why did you say this about me on TV? What is it you like?
Wait a minute. Hold on, hold on. Let me get to -- there are people around me. Or if you're in a car, usually when people talk in a car, you can hear every -- especially if they have the phone up to their ear. You can hear because it bounces off the ear.
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: Headphones, maybe not so much but they are up there.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Let alone when you're in a place where at least two of the three cell carriers are owned by Russia. You know? Maybe you want to be a little bit on the quiet tip in terms of what you say.
But you know, Don, before we came on TV, Don was saying, what's going on with you? How are you feeling? Don, you know, when you're as close as we are, we spent so much time, you get to get a feel.
I'll tell you why I'm frustrated. I don't disagree with the Republicans saying we want firsthand information. Why are you giving us all these bits and pieces for something this important?
But I can't take their outrage seriously when they say nothing about the fact that the president is keeping the people that they want to hear from.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: That's why Rudy's not coming. That's why Pompeo and Mulvaney and Bolton aren't coming. You know? So how can they not be upset about that if they're upset about not getting firsthand information?
LEMON: Yes. Well, I don't know if I agree with you on all of that because, look, there's been so much hypocrisy, especially on the Republican side. This is not a witch hunt. There's every -- every person has corroborated what the whistleblower has said.
Everyone knows, even the people who are defending the president, that what he did on that call was not perfect, that what he did was wrong. They're just trying to figure out a defense and how to twist themselves in knots to come up with something.
I'm with the Daily Show on the Trump -- I forget what they call it, where you get this -- where you get this -- they did this skit where you get the box of excuses every single day for Trump defenses. And it comes in the mail and says, wait a minute, the president -- no, the president was joking. No, he wasn't joking.
So, every single day there's a defense. So, I have to disagree with you. I think on this one, the Republicans are on the wrong side of history, and they are the most hypocritical.
I'm not a partisan. I know people think that I'm some liberal Democrat. I'm not. Or I'm some -- they used to think I was a conservative Republican. I'm not. But I don't think that --I don't think the Republicans are serving themselves well right now with their defenses or lack thereof of a credible one. I got to move on, though.
CUOMO: Well, they're in such a box.
LEMON: They are in a box.
CUOMO: Because they're trying to -- you know, they say the president has no defense. Everyone in that room who is a Republican is doing nothing but defend the president. Not one of them asked any questions to elicit any kind of understanding of what happened.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: On substance. Nothing on substance.
CUOMO: They're all just defending him. He couldn't do better than he is on that room.
LEMON: Cognitive dissonance. Google it. Loot it up.
CUOMO: That's a big word. I'm looking it up. The biggest word I use is mayonnaise. I'll look that up. Have a good show.
LEMON: See you later. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
And now let's just be honest. The shakedown. That's exactly what it is. The shakedown is exposed, people. Come on. And the evidence comes from the Republican's own witnesses.
The former envoy to Ukraine, Kurt Volker, who resigned just one day after the release of the whistleblower's report, telling the president's defenders exactly what they did not want to hear.
[22:05:04]
They called him, apparently expecting him to say what he said in his closed-door testimony, that he saw no evidence of a quid pro quo, or let's call it for what it is again, a shakedown.
Well, now he says he was wrong. He was out of the loop. He didn't know Burisma meant Biden.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KURT VOLKER, FORMER UNITED STATES SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR UKRAINE NEGOTIATIONS: Since I gave my testimony on October 3rd, a great deal of additional information and perspectives have come to light. I've learned many things that I did not know at the time of the events in question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So now he knows the shakedown involved digging up dirt on Joe Biden.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLKER: In hindsight, I now understand that others saw the idea of investigating possible corruption involving the Ukrainian company Burisma as equivalent to investigating former President -- Vice President Biden.
I saw them as very different, the former being appropriate and unremarkable, the latter being unacceptable. In retrospect, I should have seen that connection differently and had I done so, I would have raised my own objections.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That's complete 180. Volker's testimony revealing the corruption was within our own administration. And the president's defenders probably did not want to hear Volker singing the praises of Joe Biden.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLKER: As I previously testified, I have known Vice President Biden for 24 years. He is an honorable man, and I hold him in the highest regard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, like I said, that was the Republicans' witness. And then there's the former NSC official Tim Morrison, who lays out the whole thing, the whole sordid shakedown in one simple sentence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIEL GOLDMAN, DEMOCRATIC COUNSEL: What did Ambassador Sondland tell you that he told Mr. Yermak?
TIM MORRISON, FORMER NSC OFFICIAL: That the Ukrainians would have to have the prosecutor general make a statement with respect to the investigations as a condition of having the aid lifted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So, let's remember Gordon Sondland is testifying bright and early tomorrow morning, 9 a.m. And if he has learned anything from the testimony so far, like I said just moments ago, he'd better be prepared to tell the truth.
In the midst of all of this, Congressman Jim Jordan, who was put on the intel committee specifically to be the Republicans' attack dog, seems to be doubling down on his strategy of yelling. I should point out that yelling doesn't mean that you've uncovered grave wrongdoing. It just simply means that you are yelling.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): That's the sad thing. People like Ambassador Volker and Tim Morrison, who have served our country so well are now stepping out of our government because of what these guys are doing. That's why Mr. Turner got so fired up a few minutes ago, why I'm so fired up too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Just yelling. I said Gordon Sondland should be prepared to tell the truth in his testimony tomorrow. Well, I just want you to look at, take a look at this picture.
So, seven witnesses so far standing up, raising their right hands, and swearing to tell the truth about the administration they serve. That takes courage. Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, a decorated army officer, whose family came here from the Soviet Union 40 years ago, giving a message to his late father, who brought the family here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEXANDER VINDMAN, DIRECTOR, EUROPEAN AFFAIRS FOR THE UNITED STATES NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: Dad, I'm sitting here today in the U.S. Capitol talking to our elected professionals, talking to our elected professionals is proof that you made the right decision 40 years ago to leave the Soviet Union and come here to the United States of America in search of a better life for our family. Do not worry. I will be fine for telling the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: You'd hope that he'd be right, and then you learn that the army is now providing security assistance for him and his family. And then you learn a short time after Vindman said that, this tweet, an attack from the White House Twitter account, taking another clip from Vindman's testimony and using it completely out of context. The president himself re-tweeting it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE CASTOR, REPUBLICAN COUNSEL: When you were -- you went to Ukraine for the inauguration?
VINDMAN: Correct.
CASTOR: At any point during that trip did Mr. Danylyuk e offer you a position of defense minister with the Ukrainian government?
VINDMAN: He did.
CASTOR: And how many times did he do that?
VINDMAN: I believe it was three times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, what the president and his White House left out is what happened next. Lieutenant Colonel Vindman clearly testifying under oath he dismissed the job offer, reported it up the chain of command, and didn't even take it seriously.
[22:09:59]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASTOR: Do you have any reason why he asked you to do that?
VINDMAN: I don't know, but every single time I dismissed it. Upon returning, I notified my chain of command, and the appropriate counterintelligence folks about this, the offer.
I'm an American. I came here when I was a toddler, and I immediately dismissed these offers, did not entertain them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Isn't it interesting? The White House left all of that out. Left it out because it was a deliberate effort to give you the false impression that Lieutenant Colonel Vindman was somehow in cahoots with Ukraine.
And, yes, the old loyalty slur applies here. Some Republicans shamefully even trying to turn his military service against him, turn his military service against him. Ranking Member Devin Nunes failing to call him by his rank and getting quite the clapback.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DEVIN NUNES (R-CA): Mr. Vindman, you testified in your deposition that you did not know the whistleblower.
VINDMAN: Ranking Member, it's Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, please.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Congressman Chris Stewart actually going so far as to question why he was wearing his military uniform even though it is not at all unusual for military officers detailed to the NSC to wear their uniforms for congressional hearings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHRIS STEWART (R-UT): Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, I see you're wearing your dress uniform. Knowing that's not the uniform of the day, that you normally wear a suit to the White House.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And then there is this from the president this afternoon at the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't know him. I don't know, as he says, the lieutenant colonel. I understand somebody had the misfortune of calling him mister, and he corrected him. I never saw the man. I understand now he wears his uniform when he goes in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: One of these two men -- OK? One of these two men, the president and Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, earned the right to wear the uniform of this country as he sees fit.
One of these two men devoted his life to duty and honor. One of these two men still has shrapnel in his body. Compare that to the military service of the president and his chief defenders -- Congressman Devin Nunes, Jim Jordan. Right. None of them has served. One of them has bone spurs.
They feel free to spout debunked conspiracy theories that Ukraine was behind the interference in our 2016 election, not Russia. Though our own intelligence community says without question, it was Russia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOAQUIN CASTRO (D-TX): Colonel Vindman, are you aware of any evidence to support the theory that the Ukrainian government interfered in the 2016 election?
VINDMAN: Congressman, I am not, and furthermore, I would say that this is a Russian narrative that President Putin has promoted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: A Russian narrative that Vladimir Putin has promoted. And these are members of the intelligence community spouting nonsense. Out of everyone in Congress, they really should know better. They're the intelligence community. Let's face it -- committee, excuse me. Let's face it. They do know better. They know.
But instead of admitting the truth, the consensus that our intelligence agency shares with high confidence that it was Russia, not Ukraine that interfered with the 2016, we get nonsense about TV ratings and drug deals.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): Well, Ambassador and Mr. Morrison, I have some bad news for you. TV ratings are way down, way down. Whatever drug deal the Democrats are cooking up here on the dais, the American people aren't buying it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Worried much? Worried that the first witnesses called by the Republicans aren't exactly saying what you want to hear, what you want them to say? Contrast that with Lieutenant Colonel Vindman showing courage, the courage to stand up to the most powerful person in the world and drawing applause in the hearing saying this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VINDMAN: This is America. This is the country I've served and defended, that all of my brothers have served and here, right matters.
REP. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY (D-NY): Thank you, sir. I yield back.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[03:15:00]
LEMON: A huge day in the impeachment inquiry today. And with everything we have learned, I'll bet I know one person who was taking notes. Ambassador Gordon Sondland set to testify in just hours. He's already changed his story once. What will he say tomorrow?
We'll discuss with Ambassador Nick Burns, Laura Coates, Frank Bruni, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Damning testimony today in the impeachment hearings, laying out evidence of the Trump administration's shakedown of Ukraine and setting the stage for tomorrow morning's big testimony from Gordon Sondland, the ambassador to the E.U., who has already changed his testimony once.
So, there's a lot to discuss. Ambassador Nicholas Burns is here, Laura Coates, and Frank Bruni. Good evening one and all. Thank you so much. Long -- Laura, you've had a long day. It was 12 hours of testimony.
LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I better not look it, Don.
LEMON: No, no. You look great. I mean, we all were like watching and then I couldn't believe, I kept looking at my watch saying, this is still going. This is still going.
[22:20:00]
But listen, hello, everyone. All of the witnesses today, Laura, even the ones called by Republicans, testified to elements of a shakedown. You watched the testimony. What should President Trump take from today's hearings?
COATES: Well, what he wants to take from today's hearing is, as he said, the Republicans are, quote, "killing it." But I think what he really means by that is killing really any chance at a viable defense that would actually attack the substance of the claims that have been made.
Every one of these witnesses essentially, even though who had the epiphanies or the willful ignorance of, is that what was really going in Kurt Volker land all had the same discussion, which is what happened behind closed-doors.
There was a conversation between the President of the United States, with the president of Ukraine. The President of the United States had extraordinary leverage over that person of the military need. He withheld military aid. Why? Because he wanted a personal favor for his re-election campaign, converting every American taxpayer into a donor for the Trump 2020 campaign.
Now, that did not change because of the way people questioned the integrity 99or the patriotism or the job description of any of the witnesses.
However, this is the only real line of defense one can take if the substance is the same throughout every single testimony.
LEMON: Well, it's always interesting to me when they say, well, the president said no quid pro quo. That's like me say, I'm interviewing you, Laura, but I'm not interviewing you right now. This is not happening, you know. It's bizarre.
COATES: It is.
LEMON: Yes. I want to bring Frank in. Frank, today's testimony really sets the stage for what really will be the most consequential day in the impeachment hearings. Tomorrow it's going to be Gordon Sondland, Ambassador Gordon Sondland's testimony. And especially we're learning from that July 10th White House meeting.
FRANK BRUNI, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes.
LEMON: What do you think?
BRUNI: Well, that July 10th date has been becoming more and more important. We've been talking so much about July 25th. But now we're hearing more and more about July 10th and about Gordon Sondland saying in that meeting, bringing up the investigations and then according to several witnesses, John Bolton cuts the meeting short.
Is he going to talk to us tomorrow about that? What is he going to say? His name keeping coming up with witness after witness and we get all those accounts, and his account wasn't that quite complete or in some cases was contradictory.
So, he's really in an interesting position because he doesn't want to lie, but he's got stuff he said or didn't say before. I think he's going to tell a much more complete story. I'm taking that cue from the fact that he already amended and extended his testimony once, and I think he's going to prove to be one of the most damning witnesses yet in this inquiry.
LEMON: Well, along the lines of, you know, not knowing about cutting the meeting short, right, there were a couple things that we learned today. And Ambassador Burns, we heard Volker attempt to explain how he didn't
associate Burisma with Biden. Do you find it hard to believe that Volker -- you know, the special envoy to Ukraine, didn't know about the Biden/Burisma connection?
NICHOLAS BURNS, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO: Well, Don, I know Kurt very well. I've worked with him for several decades. This was a surprise because obviously Burisma was connected in everybody's mind with the Bidens, with Hunter Biden. And so, I think it shocked a lot of people.
On the other hand, Kurt Volker didn't turn out, as you said, to be the witnesses the Republican side thought they were going to be. He extolled the virtues of Joe Biden, and several times was given the opportunity to say in effect he didn't believe any of these stories about Vice President Biden, and he shouldn't because they're fictitious. They've the product of the imagination of Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani.
I think the pieces of the puzzle are beginning to fall into place, and they're revealing a quite considerable months-long conspiracy of sorts to extort the Ukrainian government.
And you saw that today when the Republicans -- they're not even contesting that story that's appearing before our eyes, witness after witness. They're just showing -- throwing up flares to divert our attention.
And I thought, Don, the bullying, the mean spiritedness of some of the Republican members, going after the character of Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, accusing him of having dual loyalties to Ukraine, which of course is an old trope in American politics and a very ugly one.
And then Donald Trump, Jr. taking to Twitter to excoriate him, Colonel -- Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, and criticize him in very personal terms. Think of the depravity of the Trump family, the president allowing his son to attack a decorated veteran of our military.
I thought this was the lowest point of the hearings over the last two weeks. And the contrast between these upright, professional, ethical, career civil servant and military officers and some of these politicians, I found it really striking that people can see the difference.
LEMON: Just when you think you can't -- when we've reached the gutter, it gets lower than the gutter. I don't know where that, maybe it's -- we're going to get down to the earth's core. Who knows how low we're going to go here?
When Williams and Vindman were asked whether anyone in the national security community supported putting the hold on Ukraine's security assistance, both of them said no. Doesn't that say a lot, Laura?
[22:25:00]
COATES: It does. It underscores the point that the existing diplomatic policy with respect to the Ukraine was as exactly what you'd expect when Congress has appropriated hundreds of millions of dollars to give them military aid to fend off Russia.
The idea that they would be needing that money more than anyone else, they were, essentially were required to have it, should not surprise anyone. And that's what makes this essentially so problematic. It's such an abuse of power.
It's not a political slush fund we're talking about. It's about aid who, as Bill Taylor last week talked about this very issue, that it actually helps the national security of Americans. Congress recognized that and appropriated funds accordingly.
But one that really needs to be talked about in this issue as well, Don, is that looking ahead to tomorrow, when we have Gordon Sondland who is assured to be somebody who is going to get a lot of attention because he is the controversial party we're all talking about, remember what's available to him still could be the idea of even the Fifth Amendment.
LEMON: Right.
COATES: He may recognize that he is in legal peril here because of all of his inconsistencies. And while today it may have worked for him to have epiphanies, it may not be the case for him to clarify yet against tomorrow on this issue.
LEMON: He's the one I said, he's the one that's most in peril here when then -- besides the president and Rudy Giuliani. Frank, I got to go but quickly, how low are we going to go?
BRUNI: I mean, I don't see how we go lower than what we saw today, which was basically Republicans and then the Trumps from afar throwing spitballs at a decorated military veteran.
LEMON: Disgusting. Thank you. Thank you, all.
When we come back, I'm going to speak to a former Watergate prosecutor about today's hearings.
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Testimony from four key witnesses today, three of them were on that infamous July 25th call, and it all may have raised the stakes for impeachment. Let's discuss with Jon Sale. He was Watergate assistant special prosecutor, also a former personal attorney for Rudy Giuliani, represented Giuliani early in the impeachment inquiry. And we appreciate you coming on. Thank you, sir. Thank you so much.
JON SALE, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT COUNSEL AT THE WATERGATE TRIAL: Thanks for having me.
LEMON: When we last talked, we hadn't heard from any witnesses. Seven people have now testified publicly, so give me your assessment of how the hearings are going. What do you think?
SALE: Well, first let me join in what your other guests said about condemning the attacks on loyal, patriotic Americans who have served our country. So, I just wanted to get that out there. I think its poor judgment that the Republicans did that. I think the hearings have gone pretty much as expected. It reminded me watching them it really reminded me of watching a tennis or ping pong game going back and forth except this one there was no ending.
I don't think either side made any significant difference. And I think a week ago -- I usually don't save these, but there was a New York post, and the see if you can see it. Can you see the headline? If you can't or not, it says, guilty, now for the trial. So, I think that we're not following the lesson of the founding fathers where first Alexander Hamilton reminded us not to be partisan when you talk about impeachment.
It's just gotten more and more partisan, and rather than looking for the truth, Don, what's the hurry? Last weekend they worked Friday night, Saturday, to get this over with. They don't work on health care. They don't work on reducing prescription drugs over the weekend. There is a way where we can get better testimony than Gordon Sondland. He's the main event tomorrow, because we don't have the testimony of Mulvaney. We don't have the testimony of Bolton.
And there was a lawsuit filed by the Deputy National Security Adviser seeking guidance, whether or not he has to honor the subpoena, and they withdrew the lawsuit, and the Congress has asked that -- withdrew the subpoena and asked the case be dismissed. Why couldn't they wait? Maybe they would have won that lawsuit, and we would have gotten firsthand information, and then the American people would have the truth.
Instead, rush to judgment, vote to impeach. And then when it gets to the Senate, that's where Mitch McConnell will control the rules, and if the Republicans didn't like what the Democratic rules were, the Democrats aren't going to like the rules in the Senate, where there's going to be a quick acquittal.
LEMON: I think the Democrats have said why they're doing this with the lawsuit and not seeking some of the subpoenas, because -- I would imagine they're on a time line coming up with the election and also from the hearings, the holiday. So they're thinking that it's going to take too long to wind its way through the court system and that what the White House and what Republicans are doing now is just trying to run out the clock. That is their strategy. You don't think that's a good strategy.
SALE: Well, I don't know if it's a legitimate strategy. In Watergate, we litigated and got to the Supreme Court in less than three months. The courts will recognize that this has to be expedited and I'm just suggesting the result is inevitable. And if we don't want to get the best evidence, if we want to get a pre-determined result --
LEMON: So, you think it's better to go through the process even if it takes it much closer to the election, just go through the process and go through the court system?
SALE: Well, it's unprecedented to, in a first term, to have an impeachment hearing. So it is getting close to an election, and that leads to the argument should the people decide. What's impeachable conduct here is hard to get your arms around.
LEMON: Jon, can I ask you something? We only have a short time. I don't mean to cut you all it may be rude, but we have a short time.
SALE: Yes. Sure. I'm sorry.
LEMON: Let me ask you a question. So you were talking about the partisan part of it. Does it bother you because on the partisan side, at least on the Republican side, there are these debunked conspiracy theories that they keep relying on instead of -- listen, no one should be making up their mind.
[22:35:00]
I agree with you about whether the president should be impeached or not. Listen to the testimony. But don't you think it may be partisan, because of these -- the beliefs and throwing out these debunked conspiracy theories, trying to out the whistleblower? Doesn't that make it more partisan at least, that takes it into a completely different realm than it should be.
SALE: Well, I'm not suggesting there isn't blame to go around.
LEMON: Right.
SALE: But what I'm saying is whether or not -- I think the facts are going to be agreed upon, and the debate is going to be is it impeachable. James Madison said you don't get rid of a president for maladministration. Is it impeachable? That's what the Congress has to decide. And my problem is I think they've already decided.
LEMON: Jon Sale, always appreciate having you on in your perspective. Thank you, sir.
SALE: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: Thank you. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Republicans bracing for tomorrow's public testimony for Gordon Sondland, ambassador to the E.U., who had that phone conversation with President Trump in the middle of a Kiev restaurant about getting Ukraine to launch an investigation of Joe Biden. That follows today's testimony that clearly points to evidence of a shakedown of Ukraine. Athena Jones has the big moments.
[22:40:15]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will begin by swearing you in.
ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Day three of public impeachment hearings featured the first witnesses with direct knowledge of the events at the center of the impeachment inquiry. Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, a National Security Council official specializing in Ukraine, and Jennifer Williams, a foreign policy aide to Vice President Pence.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): Both Colonel Vindman and Ms. Williams were on the July 25th call.
JONES: Daniel Goldman, the lawyer for the Democrats, laid out their case that President Trump abused his power.
DANIEL GOLDMAN, NBC NEWS LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: -- in this July 25th call, President Trump demanded a favor of President Zelensky to conduct investigations that both of you acknowledge were for President Trump's political interest, not the national interest. And in return for his promise of a much desired White House meeting for President Zelensky. Colonel Vindman, is that an accurate summary?
LT. COL. ALEXANDER VINDMAN, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL OFFICIAL: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Williams?
JENNIFER WILLIAMS, FOREIGN POLICY AIDE TO VICE PRESIDENT PENCE: Yes.
JONES: Vindman was so concerned, he reported the call to National Security Council lawyers.
VINDMAN: I did so out of a sense of duty. My intent was to raise these concerns because they had significant national security implications for our country.
JONES: Republicans meanwhile sought to poke holes in the Democrats' case, trying to discredit the process and raising questions about the testimony and the witnesses themselves. Vindman pushing back.
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): So, your boss had concerns about your judgment. Your former boss, Dr. Hill, had concerns about your judgment. Your colleagues had concerns about your judgment, and your colleagues felt that there were times when you leaked information. Any idea why they have those impressions, Colonel Vindman?
VINDMAN: Yes, Representative Jordan. I guess I'll start by reading Dr. Hill's own words as she -- she attested to in my last evaluation that was dated middle of July right before she left. Alex is a top 1 percent military officer and the best army officer I ever worked with in my 15 years of government service. He is brilliant, unflappable, and exercises excellent judgment.
JONES: The panel's Republican lawyer, Steve Castor, established that unlike others who have testified, former U.S. envoy to Ukraine Kurt Volker and former NSC aide Tim Morrison, did not view the July 25th call as problematic.
STEVE CASTOR, GENERAL COUNSEL FOR THE HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE REPUBLICANS: -- asked you if the deposition that it in no way shape or form, in either readouts from the United States or Ukraine, did you receive any indication whatsoever or anything that resembled a quid pro quo. Is that correct?
KURT VOLKER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO: That's correct.
CASTOR: Did anything concern you on the call?
TIM MORRISON, FORMER NSC AIDE: No.
JONES: Morrison also taking issue with Vindman's interpretation of the July 25th call.
MORRISON: Sir, I'm not intimately familiar with the whistleblower complaint, but I did not hear a demand in that call.
JONES: And in another key moment, Volker amended his earlier testimony behind closed doors, in which he said the issue of investigations didn't come up in a July 10th meeting with top U.S. and Ukrainian officials. Volker explaining --
VOLKER: Since these events and since I gave my testimony on October 3rd, a great deal of additional information and perspectives have come to light. I've learned many things that I did not know at the time of the events in question.
I don't think that raising 2016 elections or Vice President Biden or these things I consider to be conspiracy theories that have been circulated by the Ukrainians, particularly the former prosecutor general, are -- they're not things that we should be pursuing as part of our national security strategy with Ukraine.
JONES: Athena Jones, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Athena Jones, thank you very much. I want to bring in now Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi, an Illinois Democrat on the Intel Committee, who questioned the witness today. Congressman, I appreciate you joining us. I know it's been a long day, so thank you so much. The White House says that today's testimony is somewhere between a tie and a win for them. What's your reaction to that?
REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL): Oh, I'm not sure about that. You know, I think that Lieutenant Colonel Vindman this morning provided, you know, very compelling testimony. I know they tried to do their best to attack him, which is really shameful the way they did it, trying to question his loyalty, you know, imply that as an immigrant, that he could not possibly be patriotic. And, you know, just going after him in ways that are really unbecoming. But I think that they didn't lay a glove on him.
LEMON: I want to play this, because you took great issue to that. Let's listen.
KRISHNAMOORTHI: Yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISHNAMOORTHI: Your father never gave up working hard to build his very own American dream, did he?
VINDMAN: He did not.
KRISHNAMOORTHI: Well, Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, your father achieved the American dream, and so did you and your family. From one immigrant American to another immigrant American, I want to say to you that you and your family represent the very best of America. I assume that you are as proud to be an American as I am, correct?
[22:45:13]
VINDMAN: Yes, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Implying -- you think they were implying that he wasn't loyal to America because he's an immigrant?
KRISHNAMOORTHI: Yeah. I mean you heard one of their question lines, you know, talking about how he may have been offered the post as defense minister at Ukraine. I think it was kind of an unserious offer made by, you know, a senior adviser in Ukraine and, you know, they took it so seriously as though he's, you know, more interested in protecting Ukraine than protecting America.
LEMON: Let's talk about -- move forward and talk about what's going to happen tomorrow. We're going to hear from the E.U. Ambassador Gordon Sondland, a key witness who spoke directly with the president about the shakedown. Do you expect him to be truthful, because he's changed his testimony? He's had to amend it.
KRISHNAMOORTHI: He's remembered new events and conversations and statements. That's why he amended his deposition testimony. Maybe he'll remember more tomorrow. As long as he's truthful and he's fulsome, I think that he'll be in good shape. But the most important thing here is we got to get to, you know, the events in question and, you know, what happened. Who said what and who directed it? And I think that he's really at the epicenter of this.
LEMON: Congressman Krishnamoorthi, thank you so much.
KRISHNAMOORTHI: Hey, thanks, Don.
LEMON: How the White House and their defenders are trying to vilify Lieutenant Colonel Vindman with questions about where his loyalties lie, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:50:00]
LEMON: One of the most powerful moments of today's testimony in the impeachment hearing coming from Lieutenant Vindman. I want you to listen to what he said in his opening statement about his decision to testify.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VINDMAN: I also recognize that my simple act of appearing here today would not be tolerated in many places around the world. In Russia, my act of expressing concern to a chain of command in an official and private channel would have severe personal repercussions and offering public testimony involving the president would surely cost me my life.
Dad, I'm sitting here today in the U.S. Capitol talking to our elected professionals -- talking to our elected professionals is proof that you made the right decision 40 years ago to leave the Soviet Union. And come here to the United States of America in search of a better life for our family. Do not worry. I will be fine for telling the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So if you thought Vindman's years of service would protect him from attacks on his loyalty. Well, unfortunately, you'd be wrong. During Vindman's testimony today, the official White House Twitter account put out a misleading tweet questioning his judgment and then a long string of attacks, the president's son, Don Jr. tweeted a link to an article saying that he wasn't a hero. Of course they took their queue from the president himself who weeks ago attacked Vindman as a never Trumper.
Let's discuss now. Julia Ioffe, and Wajahat Ali, good evening. Sad. Really. Unbelievable. Julia, Lieutenant Vindman, like Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, you emigrated to the U.S. from the former Soviet Union when you were young. What is it like to watch attacks on where Vindman's loyalties lie?
JULIA IOFFE, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: Well, it's painful. But I can't say it's surprising given the atmosphere that President Trump has created of xenophobia anti-immigrant sentiment and frankly, antisemitism. I think, it's especially cruel given what people like Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman and I and our families were fleeing. Which is a country where we have lived for hundreds of years, had given life and limb to protect said country.
Alexander Vindman's father served in the soviet military. His grandfather lost his life in World War II. And still the loyalty to the Soviet Union was questioned, because they were Jewish. To come here and have that loyalty questioned again after you have spilled blood for this country, is not only deeply ironic, but just deeply cruel.
LEMON: Wajahat, the Wall Street Journal reports that the army is ready to move Lieutenant Colonel Vindman and his family and into ensure their security. This is what a sad state of affairs. WAJAHAT ALI, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, how shameless. Lieutenant Colonel
Vindman, a Purple Heart recipient. A war hero. A public servant is now requesting 24 hour security detail for him and his family, because he has been attacked by Trump and Republicans for simply standing up for national security. For doing his job. This is a man who is now being called a double agent.
Remember that couple of weeks ago, Don, I predicted on Twitter, he would probably be called a double agent, because he's an immigrant and a Jew and that night on Fox News. Laura Ingraham and John (inaudible), said he's a double agent. Today, that was insinuated again. A dual loyalty smear which is an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory.
And let's not forget that Donald Trump, the president recently accused 80 percent of American Jews of being disloyal. He said, 80 percent of American Jews who vote Democrats are disloyal to Israel. This is the mainstreaming of a white supremacist anti-Semitic conspiracy. That Jews like sorrows (inaudible) globalist.
Does that sound familiar? It's a mainstream Republican talking point are helping bring an invasion of immigrants and rapist and criminals in Middle Easterners and there's a cost to this. There's a cost to his Lieutenant Colonel Vindman's life and family. That's why he requested 24 hour security detail.
[22:55:00]
And also let's not forget there's a cost to Jews in this country. The synagogue massacre, in Poway, in San Diego, in Pittsburg. And also internationally. In New Zealand. In El Paso. It's the same conspiracy theory, Don. So, there are consequences to this hate. That's what we have to remember.
LEMON: Our time is short tonight, but -- I found that surprising. Questioning why he's wearing his uniform. And what language he is speaking when he's talking to other people he works with. It's just unbelievable. Thank you. Sorry our time is short tonight. We have to get to more of our special coverage. Thank you, Julia. Thank you, Wajahat, I appreciate it.
IOFFE: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you for watching.
ALI: Thank you.
LEMON: Our live special coverage of the impeachment inquiry continues with Anderson Cooper.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
