Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

Gordon Sondland Grilled by Lawmakers; Ukraine Officials Knew About the Frozen Aid; Ambassador Gordon Sondland Testifies Ukraine Shakedown Scheme Came At Express Direction Of The President; All The President's Men; President Trump's Reaction To Today's Testimony. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired November 20, 2019 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: Who knows?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: I think she said at the end there maybe he won't have that post anymore. Who knows? Well, you know who knows is, the president. Remember, this president values fealty, not loyalty. The difference? He doesn't take care of you. He just expects you to take care of him. And if you don't, be on the lookout.

Thanks for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon with a packed show right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: She offered every single answer that you could give. Well, he's still on the job but maybe he won't be. Maybe he'll choose not to or maybe he'll lose the post. I mean -

CUOMO: That covers it.

LEMON: That covers everything. Listen, today was explosive. I know, you know, we say that, and every day we find out something new. This was not -- this was not a good day for the administration. Key figures including the president, the chief of staff, the secretary of state, all of them, not a good day for them. And the vice president.

CUOMO: Good day for the truth.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Bad day for the state of division because now that the truth is this obvious, the division becomes even more odious.

LEMON: Yes, it does, and I have to say at this point if you're continuing to say that there was no, as they say, quid pro quo or the president didn't ask or whatever, whether or not it's impeachable, that is again not up for me to decide, not up for you to decide. That's up for the Senate to decide and the American people.

But to deny that the president did not do something wrong at this point, it is -- (CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Political. That's what it is.

LEMON: It's -- no. I was going to say it's mental. It is mental If you can look at the mountain of evidence and say nothing's wrong. I still, you know, the president didn't do anything wrong. He's just rooting out corruption, you got a problem.

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: Because that is not what happened.

CUOMO: The problem is you're a partisan.

LEMON: The problem is you.

CUOMO: In that room they say that he's not represented, Don. I have never seen a man better represented. You could have someone coming after you in the middle of your Christmas dinner at your family's house. You wouldn't be as well represented as he was.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Everybody in that room was only trying to find ways on the Republican side to get him out of this.

LEMON: And not addressing the substance at all. So, when you can't address the substance, what does that mean? You attack the process and then you bring up old conspiracy theories.

CUOMO: It means you're not doing your job.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: If they were all attorneys, that's fine. But until they quit and join the legal team, their job is oversight. They were overlooking things, not doing oversight.

LEMON: Yes. As you know, Mr. Attorney, not a legal process, political process.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: A hundred percent.

LEMON: As you said though, I've got a packed show. Got to run. See you soon, Chris Cuomo, in Washington.

But this is time for CNN TONIGHT with me, Don Lemon.

And we had one bombshell after another as the impeachment hearings that began at 9 a.m. stretched well into the night. I was actually worried. It was like, well, I don't know. Maybe I won't even go on TV if this continues the way it is. I thought it was going to stretch well into the 10, maybe 11 o'clock hour. It went on for a long time into the evening.

And we're going to bring you all the big moments that you might have missed, so stay tuned for that.

But tonight, top Pentagon official Laura Cooper -- that's her name -- shooting holes in the GOP defense that there couldn't be a shakedown if Ukraine didn't know that military aid was being withheld. Well, it turns out they did know. They knew on the very day of the president's infamous phone call with the president of Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAURA COOPER, MEMBER, U.S. SENIOR EXECUTIVE SERVICE: My staff showed me two unclassified e-mails that they received from the State Department. One was received on July 25th at 2.31 p.m. That e-mail said that the Ukrainian embassy and House foreign affairs committee are asking about security assistance.

The second e-mail was received on July 25th at 4.25 p.m. That e-mail said that the Hill knows about the FMF situation to an extent, and so does the Ukrainian embassy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Let me tell you, here's why that is so important. We started the day with the Republicans arguing that there was no quid pro quo, no shakedown. Well, Gordon Sondland demolishing that defense with his testimony that the shakedown was directed by the president and Rudy Giuliani.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GORDON SONDLAND, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE EUROPEAN UNION: Mr. Giuliani's requests were a quid pro quo for arranging a White House visit for President Zelensky.

Mr. Giuliani demanded that Ukraine make a public statement announcing the investigations of the 2016 election, DNC server, and Burisma. Mr. Giuliani was expressing the desires of the President of the United States, and we knew these investigations were important to the president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: There you go. Then there is the second Republican argument that there couldn't be a quid pro quo if Ukraine didn't know about it. Well, Laura Cooper's testimony tonight blows that one right out of the water.

[22:05:00]

And then there is the third Republican argument. Ukraine got the aid, so no harm, no foul. Except here's the fact. The fact is that Ukraine only got the aid because the president and his men got caught.

And in the face of all of this, all of this damning evidence of a shakedown by the president, the Republicans are spouting lies, and they're spouting nonsense, conspiracy theories with no basis in fact.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DEVIN NUNES (R-CA): The Democrats have zeroed in on an anonymous whistleblower complaint that was cooked up in cooperation with the Democrats on this very committee. When journalists report on Ukraine election meddling and Hunter Biden's position on the board of corrupt Ukrainian companies, the Democrats label them conspiracy theorists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I was wondering he was -- what hearing was he -- I don't know. That is rich. What he said was rich because the fact is -- remember, facts first. Devin Nunes is just throwing out one conspiracy theory after another after another.

It is shameful, shameful that he's trying to distract you with garbage. It's garbage. It's trash. This is a time to be serious. This is a time to follow the facts wherever they lead, to look at the substance.

Republicans, knock it off with the debunked conspiracy theories. You look really stupid and dumb. Be serious. Do your job. You took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America, the basis, the basis of our democracy. Defend the president on the facts of this case. If you can't do that without resorting to lies and nonsense, well, maybe that should probably tell you something.

Yet one after another, those Republicans are using their time in the impeachment hearings not to follow the facts, not to talk about the substance of this, but to perform for an audience of one. And here is the tell. Here's how you know all of this had nothing to do with corruption in Ukraine. It was actually all about corruption in this administration.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SONDLAND: He had to announce the investigations. He didn't actually have to do them as I understood it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Busted. All he wanted was a public announcement. Why is that? A public announcement and not real investigations? What does that tell you? Maybe one scenario is when the election is going on, well, Joe Biden is under investigation. Who does that help? That helps the president, who's running for re-election. Who does it hurt? His political opponent.

Duh. Whatever happened to draining the swamp? This is the swamp. The president claiming today that he doesn't know Sondland very well, the man who told him on that cell phone call in the middle of the Kiev restaurant that President Zelensky, his words, loves your ass. Just listen to what Sondland has to say about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SONDLAND: That sounds like something I would say. That's how President Trump and I communicate, a lot of four-letter words, in this case three-letter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Does that sound like someone the president doesn't really know? While Sondland is testifying, the president gets out in front of the cameras, reading his talking points. There they are, written in big letters in sharpie no less, because apparently, he needs that to remember this statement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I want nothing. I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. Tell Zelensky to do the right thing. Then he says, this is the final word from the President of the United States. I want nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I want nothing. That's what I said. Actually, Sondland said he was paraphrasing. He said the president said something to the effect. It wasn't a quote. So, he had to read back.

So, actually what he's reading back is a paraphrase of what someone said he said. It's just like, you know, the memo of the call. It's not verbatim.

This is a mess. Come on, people. Really? But that scribbled out in sharpie, it did the job. Every Republican saw it. Every Republican saw it. They got the message. As Michael Cohen told us, the president doesn't give orders. He speaks, and you get the message.

[22:10:01]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER DONALD TRUMP'S LAWYER: He doesn't give you questions. He doesn't give you orders. He speaks in a code, and I understand the code because I've been around him for a decade.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: It doesn't take a genius. The president's message comes through. I mean, listen, no shade to Michael Cohen. That's just an expression. It doesn't take a genius. Anybody can see what the president is doing. That message, the president's message, comes through loud and clear.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN RATCLIFFE (R-TX): On September 9th, and most importantly reading from your deposition, you called President Trump to ask him, what do you want from Ukraine? He responded; I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. I want Zelensky to do the right thing.

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. I want Zelensky to do the right thing. I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. I want this new guy, brand-new guy in politics, his party just took over, I want Zelensky to do the right thing.

REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): No quid pro quo. I want nothing. I want nothing. I want President Zelensky to do the right thing.

NUNES: I want nothing. There is no quid pro quo. Let me repeat. President Trump said, I want nothing. There is no quid pro quo.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: It is so obvious. Desperation. They even had signs made up. Wow, this is -- this actually happened. But the thing is this is -- this is not really about Ukraine. This is about the president and his administration, and what we learned today is that more and more the president's men are getting caught in the scandal, starting with the president himself.

Take a look at your screen. There it is. Sondland's testimony today makes that clear, and there is more to come tomorrow. Fiona Hill, the president's former top Russia adviser, testifies tomorrow along with diplomat David Holmes, who overheard that explosive cell phone call in the middle of a crowded Ukraine restaurant with the president asking whether Ukraine's president was going to, quote, "do the investigations."

As I have said, buckle up. More to come. That gets underway 9 a.m. Bombshell testimony. Surprise revelations. We'll go through all of it, and I'm wondering with all the new evidence coming up in these hearings, are Democrats -- are they rushing things?

Let's discuss. Jim Sciutto, John Dean, Carl Bernstein. But we'll do it after the break.

[22:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So welcome back, everyone.

In his impeachment testimony, Ambassador Gordon Sondland flat out said the scheme to pressure Ukraine to investigate President Trump's political opponents came at the express direction of the president.

And later, a Pentagon official testified that Ukraine officials knew as early the day of the president's Ukraine call that military aid was frozen.

Let's bring in Mr. Jim Sciutto, Sir John Dean, and Mr. Carl Bernstein. Gentlemen, thank you. A momentous day, I'm sure you all will agree.

Jim, I'm going to start with you. Ambassador Sondland and Laura Cooper both gave testimony today that demolished key Republican arguments or talking points.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: So big picture, right? Sondland says there was a delay in the aid. There was a quid pro quo. It came from the direction of the president, and others were aware of it. You know, himself, Pompeo, Pence, et cetera.

What he didn't say was that he heard those words directly from the president. The president did not say to him, do this, you know, and I will stand in the way of that.

The question, though, remains why did they then do it, right? You know, why did all these senior officials in the Trump administration then violate what was stated U.S. policy versus -- towards Ukraine, which was to give the aid to help fight the invasion against Russia.

So, you, you know, basically the test for Republicans and Democrats is did they do that of their own free will? Did they violate the policy based on their own imagination of what the president wanted?

I mean that's basically the gut check here is, you know, if he did not hear those words or is not willing to testify to those words, then why did they pursue a policy that violated what the stated U.S. policy was towards Ukraine.

That's the real test, and the question is does that provide enough of an opening for Republican lawmakers to say, OK. Questionable, but we don't have the proof there to vote to impeach the president.

LEMON: John Dean, you say Ambassador Sondland put the truth over party and the president today, but did he stop short of telling the whole truth today?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think he did. When I saw it was trending on Twitter today that he was having a full John Dean moment, I thought about it, and another Watergate term came to mind, that this was a modified limited hangout.

I don't know if you remember that, Don, but that was a phrase of a little ambiguous testimony where you pointed the finger. You protected yourself, but you did name everybody but the president really and really didn't draw him in.

LEMON: Yes. I was going to say to you, John, he did a good job of throwing everybody under the bus and covering his -- and CYA. You know what that term means.

DEAN: Limited modified hangout. Modified limited hangout. Anyway, you know, he was -- his statement, his written statement was the strongest part of his testimony.

LEMON: Right.

[22:20:00]

DEAN: He was -- he was not really good on really soft cross- examination. LEMON: Yes.

DEAN: And gave up, like, I'm presuming this or I don't know this for a fact or I didn't have this conversation.

So, I had hoped for more during his cross-examination. I -- when I did my own written statement, I raised things that I knew a lot about and was prepared to really turn the fire hose on if they asked me about it.

LEMON: Yes.

DEAN: That wasn't the case today.

LEMON: Carl Bernstein, during Watergate, Nixon famously went on TV and said, I am not a crook. November 17th, almost exactly 46 years ago. Is President Trump a crook?

CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: He's a corrupt president, and today's testimony made clear just how corrupt he is.

But let's go back to the big picture that Jim started with because what we saw today is the wheels have now come off the cover-up, and the stunning dimensions of the underlying conspiracy are really apparent after Sondland's testimony.

When he said that everyone is in the loop, that really is apparent now. So, we have a roadmap. We have a chronology. Was he the perfect witness? No. He's flawed. He was not as great a witness as Dean because he wasn't privy to as much as John Dean was.

But this takes us into new territory, and tomorrow we have Fiona Hill, who I suspect we're going to learn an awful lot from about all kinds of things and views that happened at the National Security Council, including some of John Bolton's views and actions. I've said all along none of us knows where this is going to go. We don't know the outcome, and I think that's even more true after today. And it's a grave situation.

LEMON: Jim, give us the final word because Carl took us forward to tomorrow. You know, I said earlier at this point, if you look at the evidence and you don't think that the president has done something wrong, perhaps there's something wrong with you.

Again, that doesn't mean you should be removed from office or impeachment. But just from the facts, from the transcript, from the phone call, from the overheard phone call, the evidence is damning.

SCIUTTO: It is. But you know what I worry here is that obstruction works in the end, right? You know, the president, the White House has banned the witnesses that would then make the explicit connection between the president and this order.

John Bolton, Secretary Pompeo, all the folks who someone like Sondland says were also in on this, and the documents, the e-mails. I mean, Sondland said that in his opening statement. I can't back up all of my statements because I can't go back to reference the e-mails, communications, text messages, et cetera, that might, you know, jog my memory.

And the worrisome fact here is that, does the White House strategy, in effect, work right in that you prevent the witnesses and the documents from backing up that explicit connection to the president.

We saw this to some degree during the Mueller investigation. Do we see it again?

LEMON: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Does it work? You know, it may end up in an article of impeachment, but does it work in turning the minds of Republican lawmakers? It may be true.

LEMON: I think that's a very good point, and no matter what evidence comes out, there's always a more ridiculous excuse for the president's behavior that comes from the Republicans.

Thank you very much. I appreciate all of you.

Huge revelations at today's hearings ripping apart the arguments by the president and his defenders. John Kasich is next. He's going to weigh in.

[22:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Today's testimony in the Ukraine shakedown demolishing the talking points of the president and his allies, but will it change any minds on impeachment?

Former Republican Governor of Ohio John Kasich joins me now. Hello, John. I like checking in with you --

(CROSSTALK)

JOHN KASICH, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hello, Don.

LEMON: -- after these big developments. Your reaction to today's testimony?

KASICH: Well, I'm going to show you. I just made my own artwork. These are my own talking points, OK? I think this will explain, Don. And let's just assume you have a congressman that has not totally made up their mind and they're just not going to change no matter what.

So, you have three things at play. You have the political party which puts pressure on the members of the party to stay in line. But then you have the public.

And I think after today's testimony, it's likely we're not going to know it within the next 12 hours, but we will know it over time, whether the testimony today moved the public because if the public is moved, then the party matters less.

And then of course, at the bottom of the triangle is a very important thing, and it's called conscience. So, for those who are whispering to one another about what this testimony means, right now the party is ascendant.

The public is kind of -- you know, consistent with the party if you're in a Republican district. But if the public starts to move, it will make the party -- it will not be as powerful as it was, and then what every congressman has to do -- congressman and woman -- is they have to think about their conscience because at the end of the day -- and I signed this, Don, personally for you by the way.

At the end of the day when you go home, you -- there's only one person that matters, and that's the person that you see in the mirror.

LEMON: You know what --

(CROSSTALK)

KASICH: So, all you've been about is your party, you know, I think this explains the push and the pull. I think the testimony today, because I watched 11 minutes of one national news segment tonight -- I think the public is going to pay more attention.

I can't predict where they're going to move, but I think they're going to have -- they're going to put more pressure on for the person to be responsible, maybe a little less effect of the party.

LEMON: I got --

(CROSSTALK)

[22:30:07]

KASICH: Does that make sense to you?

LEMON: You know we're a big, legit organization. We have a graphics part. We could have made that up for you, I appreciate the effort.

KASICH: This is very extremely valuable, extremely valuable.

LEMON: Wait a minute. Hold on. The president --

(CROSSTALK)

KASICH: Everybody has their notes today.

LEMON: The president called, and he wants his sharpie back. Listen, its serious business here. What about over in the Senate, OK? What do you think some of the more moderate Senators are thinking, hearing when they --

KASICH: See, the Senate, that's very interesting. Look, in the House, because of redistricting, there aren't many marginal seats anymore, OK? It just doesn't exist. So, there are not that many people that are sitting over there worrying, OK, what's the public think, because the public mostly is Republican and agree with them if you're Republican, Democrat if you're a Democrat.

And so the party still has great influence, and the publics kind of with you. At the end, you still have conscience you have to deal with. But in the United States Senate, Don, there are states where it can be extremely close, extremely close. That's why the development --

LEMON: Can we -- go on.

KASICH: -- is going to matter, because it might put great pressure on some of these vulnerable United States senators.

LEMON: Sorry for delay. We have a little cross talk because of that. But listen, the ranking member Devin Nunes today, he didn't talk about substance at all. He's talking about debunk conspiracy theories. Is this part of -- it's got to be part of the strategy to create these moments that can be used to spread these conspiracy theories on Fox News, on conservative media, and on social media. That's got to be it, because what he said didn't -- had nothing to do with what was happening in the hearings.

KASICH: To me, Don, the question is going to be the regular media and social media, and I saw a lot of attention being given to Sondland today. How does that penetrate? How do people feel about it? And as the public, you know, wakes up, and if they move, they put tremendous pressure on members of the United States Senate, who are in vulnerable seats.

LEMON: That's my question then. No, no. Let's stick to the question, because it was about (inaudible).

KASICH: Yes. It doesn't matter what he did. It doesn't matter. Media dismiss that. I mean, I don't --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But you don't think the people at home -- you don't think the people at home were the people who are watching conservative media or listening to conservative media and getting those talking points, they're not hearing substance at all. They're hearing debunked conspiracy theories and process.

KASICH: Yes, but, Don, I think that, you know, we can talk about the conservative media, OK? But if we look at the numbers for all cable, you know, and you look at an evening newscast that puts the first 11 of the first 15 minutes on all about this.

LEMON: Right.

KASICH: It drowns out. The numbers significant -- much bigger. And we'll see what the headlines are tomorrow, and we'll see what they're going to talk about tomorrow morning on these early morning shows that people are listening while they're getting the kids ready for school.

LEMON: I got you. KASICH: You know, that's what we have to keep our eye on. Where is

the public, because the public will mitigate party, and may force some people to think about their conscience --

LEMON: OK.

KASICH: -- and being true to it.

LEMON: Conscience.

KASICH: One way or the other.

LEMON: Party, public, in a triangle. Thank you, John Kasich.

KASICH: OK. It could go in a political science book. It could be brilliant --

LEMON: John Kasich, everyone.

KASICH: -- like the theory of relativity. What can you say? All right, Don. Thank you.

LEMON: He needs an art class.

Gordon Sondland implicating some major Trump administration players in the Ukraine scandal. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:35:00]

LEMON: Ambassador Gordon Sondland testified, and I quote, we followed the president's orders. That's big, so big. Right? It is the banner headline at the top of tomorrow's New York Times. He says the president's senior officials knew about the Ukrainian shakedown scheme.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMB. GORDON SONDLAND, E.U. AMBASSADOR: Everyone was in the loop. It was no secret.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And then there is the vice president, Mike Pence. Sondland claims that he told Pence early in September, before the V.P. was to meet Ukraine's president that he was concerned aid to Ukraine was tied to the investigations. Well, tonight Pence tells a Wisconsin TV reporter that he has no recollection of any discussion.

Now, note that he used the word discussion. Sondland testified that when he expressed his concerns to Mike Pence, the V.P. didn't do it, didn't say anything, just nodded his head. And then there is the Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo here. Well, Mike Pompeo, Sondland says, emailed him with concerns about linking the money to the investigations and in emails Sondland gave the committee, Pompeo appeared to approve of Sondland's work in Ukraine.

But tonight Pompeo's spokesperson says Sondland never told the secretary that he believed the president was linking aid to investigations of political opponents and that any suggestions to the contrary are false. There's also the outgoing Energy Secretary, Rick Perry. Sondland says that Perry worked with Rudy Giuliani to press for the investigations. But Perry denies knowledge of the quid pro quo, and he is refusing to cooperate with the impeachment investigation.

There's also Rudy Giuliani at the top there. Sondland testified the quid pro quo came from him at the express direction of President Trump. But after Sondland's testimony today, Giuliani claimed he never discussed the issue of military aid with Sondland. As for Mick Mulvaney, well, Sondland claims that he emailed the acting White House chief of staff before the infamous July 25th phone call, making clear the scheme was in play.

Mulvaney admitted to the quid pro quo at a press briefing in October. But then he later denied that he publicly admitted to it. And then there is the former National Security Adviser, John Bolton, who was in the July 10th meeting with Ukrainian officials where Sondland brought up the shakedown scheme.

[22:40:10]

Bolton immediately shut the meeting down, but in an interesting side note, Sondland says Bolton's office requested Giuliani's contact information before a visit to Kiev. Did Bolton call Giuliani? What did they say? So many questions.

James Clapper is here, and we're going to get to all of that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Ambassador Gordon Sondland's testimony today was objectively bad for President Trump, but it was also really bad for some of his closest aides and advisers. Let's discuss. James Clapper, the former Director of National Intelligence, is here. Thank you, sir. We have a short time, and I want to get a lot in and I appreciate you joining us.

[22:45:04]

Listen, Sondland implicated so many people close to the president in his testimony today. We're looking at some of them now. He says that they were all in the loop, and it was on behalf of the president. Go. What do you think?

JAMES CLAPPER, FORMER DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, it was very damning and very compelling, and I thought his statement, which is in writing, pretty strong, and of course this really thickens the plot. So I thought it was hugely damaging and not a good day for the White House.

LEMON: He testified, meaning Sondland, that some of the most senior members of the administration, meaning Pompeo, Mulvaney, Bolton -- they all knew about this shakedown scheme. But as it stands right now, we're not going to hear from any of them. We know the Democrats' strategy is to wrap this up quickly, but don't you think we need to hear from them?

CLAPPER: Well, obviously and I couldn't help but think about when the Republicans were complaining about the witnesses who were reporting secondhand observations. Well, the people who have firsthand observation won't or aren't permitted to testify. So, one would think that exculpatory information that would help the president, they would be in the witness chair, but obviously they're not. And I would guess we probably won't see them.

LEMON: Another person who testified today is Laura Cooper. She's a Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense. She updated her testimony today -- tonight actually and revealed that the Ukrainians reached out to Defense and State, meaning the Defense and State Departments about the status of the aid on the very same day of the Trump/Zelensky call. Does that reveal they knew what was going on?

CLAPPER: Yes, it certainly substantiates it, and I suspect they actually knew about it before that. But clearly the effort to rationalize that no harm, no foul, because the Ukrainians never knew about the hold, well, I'm sure they did. As important as this was to them and the long delay that I'm sure the Ukrainians understood what was going on.

LEMON: And listen, if you can answer this for me. Minority Leader Devin Nunes, I'm sure you saw him today continuing to use the hearings today to spread unfounded conspiracy theories. One is that Ukraine interfered in the 2016 election. There's absolutely no evidence that that is true. Is he living -- it's like he's living in an alternate universe.

CLAPPER: Well, yeah. There was absolutely no intelligence, certainly contemporaneously whatever of the Ukrainians attempting to interfere in the election. I don't know what motivation they would have to do that. But let's just assume for the sake of discussion that what Congressman Nunes said was right.

Well, that dwarfs exponentially -- what the Russians did dwarves exponentially even the allegations, which there's no basis for, about the alleged Ukrainian interference, so it's ridiculous. It's just a distraction.

LEMON: Yes. Intelligence is the key word in that. Thank you. Thank you very much, Director. I appreciate it.

CLAPPER: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: As the testimony gets more and more damning for the president, he's even writing down his favorite talking points. No quid pro quo. How the White House is reacting to all of this, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:50:00] LEMON: Gordon Sondland testifying the Ukraine shakedown scheme came

at the express direction of the president. The president disagrees. Here to discuss, Susan Glasser, Michael D'Antonio. Good evening to both. Michael, this was the president on the White House lawn today. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I say to the ambassador in response, I want nothing, I want nothing, I want no quid pro quo. Tell Zelensky, President Zelensky, to do the right thing. So, here's my answer, I want nothing. I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. Tell Zelensky to do the right thing. Then he says, this is the final word from the president of the United States, I want nothing. Thank you folks. Have a good time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I mean, come on. Michael, he read from his pad, his talking points were written in black sharpie. I mean, you can clearly read I want nothing, I want nothing, I want no quid pro quo, tells Zelensky which is, by the way, misspelled, to do the right thing. This is the final word from the president of the United States. Is he going to need more than a few sharpie talking points to fight this impeachment?

MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You know, I think he might need to go back to Walter Reed for psychiatric exam, because this was crazy town. You know, watching the president standing on the driveway there bellowing at the cameras, I want nothing, I want nothing is absurd. You know, this is a kind of unreal approach to this profound crisis that the president is dragging the country through because of his behavior, because of his corruption. And we're seeing the man fall apart.

[22:55:04]

Now, the one thing I'll give him is that he's consistent. He's behaved this way for much of his adult life. He's not going to give in. He's not going to acknowledge reality. And so we're going to have to force him to see it. The Congress is going to have to force him to see it and the American people will have to require it.

LEMON: Trust me, right? Now someone is writing the Broadway musical no quid pro quo or maybe it's -- I want nothing. I want nothing. Underlined no quid pro quo in small letters. Listen, Susan, the president, here he is describing his hand-picked ambassador who not only donated a million dollars to his inauguration, but served as a fund-raiser for his campaign. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I don't know him very well. I have not spoken to him very much. This is not a man I know well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He does that -- I mean he barely knew him? Where have we heard that before, Susan?

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, THE NEW YORKER: You know, we've heard it a few times before. Donald Trump has a breathtaking cycling through of aides and advisers in and out of his White House, in and out of his company. And guess what, you can be pretty sure when the door hits you on the way out that Donald Trump has no idea who you are, you hardly even met each other, you never really talked.

Gordon Sondland testified under oath that he had interacted and talked with the president approximately 20 times.

LEMON: Twenty time, yes.

GLASSER: I was really struck yesterday when Tim Morrison, no fan of his at the National Security Council, they were very suspicious of Gordon Sondland. They thought, he was the sort of braggadocious, you know, campaign donor who brag about having access to the president. They weren't sure. Tim Morrison said, you know, every time I checked out whether he actually had a phone call with the president, he did.

And I think that was the power of the testimony today was that this was a guy who had interacted directly with the president. You know, he takes you back in time to the Oval Office in May, when the president of the United States said talk to Rudy, he's the guy. You have to deal with him on this. And that's putting it in the president's own words and then you watch it unfolding over the next few months.

LEMON: Michael, the president really took offense at being characterized as not in a good mood on that phone call, saying that he's always in a good mood. Really?

D'ANTONIO: I think, Gordon Sondland is absolutely right. The president was in a bad mood whenever I saw him in the mornings back when I was interviewing him for my book. And, you know, I think this idea that he doesn't know someone like Gordon Sondland, he knew him well enough to take his $1 million, and he knew him well enough a month ago -- October 8th -- he said that Gordon Sondland is a very good guy and that he's a great American. So, which is it, President Trump? Great American or I don't really know him?

LEMON: He was just a coffee boy. Listen -- we've heard that one before, remember? Susan, Ohio Republican Jim Jordan has been given a prominent role in this hearings. No jacket, loud voice, weak on the facts, right? Lots of yelling. That may appeal to the GOP base. He's playing to a party of one, right?

GLASSER: You know, I will say that my 14-year-old son who really hadn't been watching the hearings came in in the evening session today and Jordan was on the TV. He had no idea who it was, what party or anything, he was just like mom, can you turn off that yelling man. And I think, you know, he speaks for all of us. It's an interesting tactic.

It seems to be just, you know, yell and undermine the witnesses. It's not just the audience of one is Trump though. It's also that they're getting their documents from Trump. I felt like the Republicans this morning were stunned and didn't know how to deal with Sondland and it was only when they sort of rallied later in the day and Trump essentially gave them marching orders that they seemed to snap to and mount a much more vociferous attack on the witness.

LEMON: Yes. Interesting -- an interesting day and an interesting one tomorrow. Thank you both, I appreciate it. We will be watching, it starts at 9:00 a.m. But in the meantime, thank you for watching. Our live coverage is going to continue now with Anderson Cooper.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Thanks for joining us. Coming up on 11:00 p.m. here in New York. Two big stories tonight, damaging testimony about the president and the debate in the race to be his Democratic opponent. Debate in the closing moments, we'll be talking to candidates getting their sense of how they did and perhaps asking some of the questions that were not asked on the debate stage tonight.

Let's get started. It's a two David night. David Gergen, and David Axelrod, Nia-Malika Henderson is with us as well. Also Gloria Borger, Evan Jones, Jess Macintosh and Terry McAuliffe. A quick note about the -- well, we'll have more about the next debate coming up. Gloria, what stood out from the debate tonight?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, first of all, I thought generally aside from the end of the debate, they were pretty civil to each other. I think that Pete Buttigieg is a terrific baiter.