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Don Lemon Tonight
House Democrats Brings Two Articles of Impeachment; President Trump Mocks Articles Of Impeachment At Rally; Former Obama White House Counsel Says Trump Is The Founders Worst Nightmare, President Trump Has Made Full Use Of The Demagogic Playbook; Attorney General William Barr Echoes President Trump's Complaints On Russia Probe After Inspector General Report Finds The FBI Was Unbiased, Justified. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired December 10, 2019 - 22:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Have you bought a bigger shirt?
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: It's an old shirt so I'm good now. Yes, look, I wouldn't get my hopes up on that.
CUOMO: You are just rain cloud on humanity.
LEMON: It's true.
CUOMO: You have to take progress where you find it.
LEMON: Well --
CUOMO: They keep saying they can walk and chew gum at the same time.
LEMON: If I see him do it on a couple things.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: What have you got, a bag of Fritos or something? What do you put in your pocket?
LEMON: No, I'm fixing my pocket square. I was reading, I was in make, there's a backup on aisle four in makeup. I got here just a couple seconds before -- yes. So, now --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: They keep saying they can walk and chew gum.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: They should be doing more.
LEMON: They are, but listen. Listen, the House has actually passed a lot of stuff. A lot of it is sitting on Mitch McConnell's desk. So, I think --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: He won't even have debate on a lot of things.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: He won't have a debate.
CUOMO: But I must say, I must say, you know, a took a little time a few months ago and we looked at this list of all the things, like 200- something things they've passed.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: A lot of these things they know are DOA, so a little bit of the House, it's gamesmanship. You know?
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: They are passing things that are not practicalities but some things are. And the big problem is this schism between rewarding opposition versus progress.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: Right now, we reward opposition. We cover opposition and the voters expect opposition.
LEMON: But if you look at this Mexico-Canada trade agreement, I mean, I don't think, listen, I think -- I think Nancy Pelosi is a very smart woman, especially politically. And if there weren't -- if she didn't get a lot of what she wanted in this deal, especially now that she has this impeachment thing going on, I don't think that she would have signed off on it. So, I do believe her when she says that she got a lot. This is -- that she got a lot.
CUOMO: The American worker got some bumps in this.
LEMON: Yes. Yes.
CUOMO: And I think that that's a good thing. And also, you know, Nancy Pelosi said today -- someone said, you know, typical media fashion, always about the got you, you just gave the president a win. Would you -- why did you gave him a win. She says, why wouldn't I.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: It's good for the American people. If it's a win for him, great. And then she said, I'm declaring a win also.
LEMON: Yes. I don't, I don't disagree with that. I think the president can say, even in the midst of all this impeachment, I am working with the other side. I'm working -- this is a bipartisan thing that's happening here. So, I do.
I think that there's a win for both sides here, but I think that -- I think it's good that the Democrats are working with the president, but I do -- I have to say that that this is probably a bigger win for Nancy Pelosi because I think that she would not sign off on this because right now, in the midst of this impeachment, I think that she has the upper hand right now because she is getting the attention and, you know, this is going to be the third president in history to have, you know, high crimes and misdemeanors.
CUOMO: Yes, this is going to suck with a capital S for him.
LEMON: For him. He thinks he wants a show with this. He wants a show. Mitch McConnell wants it quick.
CUOMO: The Senate trial I'm sure. But listen --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: That's going to hurt, man.
CUOMO: -- this will be an interesting test because the House has followed the Trump playbook step for step. What will happen in the Senate? You know, I had Hakeem Jeffries on tonight. There's word that he may be one of the managers, one of the people who presents the House case in the Senate.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: He wouldn't give me anything on it. He was like, it's premature. But he thinks it's a bluff, that they won't put on evidence about Burisma and Biden, about Ukraine instead of Russia.
LEMON: Of course, they will.
CUOMO: That Lindsey Graham and these guys have too much pride to put up so much piffle.
LEMON: Yes, they're going to try everything but they don't --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: You want to bet on this too?
LEMON: I think that they're going to have a little bit more decorum in the Senate, but I wouldn't put it -- I wouldn't put it past him to try some tricks, a little sneakery. And just as I said Nancy Pelosi is very smart politically, I think Mitch McConnell is just as smart.
CUOMO: Talk about a guy who cemented his legacy.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: He's going to have courthouses named after him all over this country because the judges he put in place.
LEMON: Agreed.
CUOMO: You remember our other bet, right?
LEMON: Yes. But I -- we have a bet. We did it on the radio. We didn't do it on --
CUOMO: It counts --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- by the way.
LEMON: Yes. But I do think I still think the president is going to testify.
CUOMO: Don Lemon thinks the president of the United States --
LEMON: I do.
CUOMO: -- is going to testify.
LEMON: I do.
CUOMO: Under oath.
LEMON: I do.
CUOMO: In the Senate.
LEMON: I do.
CUOMO: And we bet dinner on it.
LEMON: I do. We shall see. See you. Good night.
CUOMO: Look at his face right now, and I want you to remember the look on his face because he could look at you like this when he knows that he has not a chance in hades (Ph) of being right about something.
LEMON: We shall see.
CUOMO: Well, we'll see all right. Have a great show.
LEMON: All right. Thank you, sir.
CUOMO: Yum, yum, yum.
LEMON: This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon. Thank you so much for joining us.
A lot is going to happen over the next critical days. It's very critical days. Now that House Democrats have announced that they are bringing two articles of impeachment against President Trump, abuse of power, obstruction of Congress. Abuse of power, obstruction of Congress.
The House judiciary committee is expected to approve them on Thursday. The full House expected to vote to impeach President Trump next week. And the president is out on the campaign rally tonight trying to pretend it's no big deal, that it doesn't matter that he is at the threshold of historical infamy. [22:05:09]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Now that the Russia witch hunt is dead, a big fast disgusting fraud, the congressional Democrats are pushing the impeachment witch hunt having to do with Ukraine.
(CROWD BOOING)
TRUMP: But that's already failing. You saw their so-called articles of impeachment today. People are saying, they're not even a crime. What happened? All of these horrible things. Remember, bribery and this and that. Where are they? They send these two things. They're not even a crime. This is the lightest, weakest impeachment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He knows none of that's true. He's just performing. It's a performance for a crowd, who is just laughing it up. The president also slamming the FBI tonight, lying about it of spying on his campaign. Even though the Justice Department's inspector general concluded in his report yesterday that the bureau opened the Russia investigation properly. So tonight, the president serves up lies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The inspector general's shocking report proved that the Obama FBI obtained secret warrants to spy on my campaign based on a phony foreign dossier of debunked smears paid for by crooked Hillary Clinton and the DNC. Right?
(CROWD BOOING)
TRUMP: The FBI failed to disclose the nature of the political hit job to the FISA court. They hid it. They deceived it, and they lied. Folks, they spied on our campaign, OK? They spied. Never happened before in the history of our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: By the way, none of that's true, an is true, and he's still fighting with Hillary Clinton. Wow.
By the way, there was no spying of course. The FBI obtained proper warrants. You should read the report. They obtained proper warrants for surveillance through the special FISA court, and as the nation grapples with the severity of impeaching a president, a sitting president, the chief law enforcement officer, the attorney general, William Barr, of course was probably throwing cold water on the inspector general's report. Barr apparently doesn't like the I.G.'s conclusion much either.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) WILLIAM BARR, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think our nation was turned on its head for three years. I think based on a completely bogus narrative that was largely fanned and hyped by an irresponsible press, and I think that there were gross abuses of FISA and inexplicable behavior that is intolerable in the FBI.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Your attorney general. But that's -- your attorney general by the way, Barr, the one who often acts like President Trump's personal attorney, instead of your attorney general, parroting some of the president's favorite tropes, not letting truth stand in the way of an argument.
The bogus narrative that he speaks about is Russia's interference in the 2016 election. There's nothing bogus about that, and the press was just doing its job. Nothing bogus about that either. But we all know President Trump doesn't like the press unless it's reporting favorably about him.
As for Barr, he claims the FBI opened its investigation on what he calls the thinnest of suspicions, and he's repeating another of Trump's lies, that the FBI under the Obama administration spied on the Trump campaign and got people to wear wires to record conversations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARR: The greatest danger to our free system is that the incumbent government used the apparatus of the state, principally the law enforcement agencies and the intelligence agencies, both to supply on political opponents but also to use them in a way that could affect the outcome of the election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: It's really unbelievable. These people, I mean -- OK. Facts first. While the FISA court did authorize surveillance of Carter Page, the I.G.'s report doesn't provide evidence that the FBI had its informants wear wires to record conversations with Page or anyone else.
[22:10:04]
And FBI director Christopher Wray has also pushed back on Barr's characterization of spying, telling a Senate panel back in May that the bureau conducts investigations and sometimes that includes surveillance activity. Barr also went on to say something that is a bit of a head-scratcher.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARR: And then we have to remember in today's world, presidential campaigns are frequently in contact with foreign persons, and indeed in most campaigns, there are signs of illegal foreign money coming in. And we don't automatically assume that the campaigns are nefarious and traitors and acting in league with foreign powers. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He offered no evidence to back up the claim that presidential campaigns are frequently in contact with foreign people. Even if they are, it's one thing to have conversations with foreigners. But it is quite another for Russia to interfere the way it did in 2016 to influence the outcome of the election. And if illegal foreign money is detected, isn't that something the FBI should be aware of? The answer is clearly yes.
We have to remember that this is the second time that the attorney general -- it's supposed to be your attorney general, not the president's personal lawyer -- that the Attorney General Barr has misrepresented a thorough and independent investigation. He did it with Robert Mueller's report on the investigation into Russia's interference, putting his own spin on it.
And as a result, the president got a reprieve of sorts, which he then charged straight ahead and invited Ukraine -- that's how we got here -- to interfere in our elections on his behalf. And all that followed has led him to the brink of impeachment. That's how we got here.
In addition to all the lies and all the blustering at tonight's rally, Trump's war room posted a meme on Twitter today showing Trump as the super villain Thanos from the Marvel "Avengers" movies, dispatching his Democratic enemies. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), UNITED STATES SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: On a solemn day, I recall that the first order of business for members of --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: What are we, in junior high school? Like what the hell? What is this? Like what -- what? I cannot believe that I'm even having to report this on the news. This is -- this is crazy. This is literally crazy. Are you people insane? Are you insane? Go ahead, troll the Democrats on Twitter. Do this stupid, silly you know what. Play this stupid, juvenile meme game. History won't record this meme stupid crap, but history will record this.
The seriousness of what is happening, that today is the day that the House of Representatives in the United States of America introduced articles of impeachment against President Donald J. Trump, the President of the United States of America, for committing high crimes and misdemeanors.
A big deal and lots to discuss. John Kasich, next.
[22:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: A historic day. Democratic leaders announcing that President Trump will become the fourth U.S. president to face impeachment for high crimes and misdemeanors. Tomorrow night, members of the judiciary committee will make their opening statements on the two articles of impeachment, abuse of power, obstruction of Congress. And a full House vote will come within days.
Let's discuss now. John Kasich is here. He's a former Republican governor of Ohio. John, thank you. A very, very serious time in the country right now. For the fourth time in American history --
(CROSSTALK)
JOHN KASICH, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It is.
LEMON: -- we now have articles of impeachment against a President of the United States. Can you believe this is where we are?
KASICH: Well, you know, what I can't believe is they put out some meme here like it's some silly cartoon thing. I mean not that I want to put the cartoon down, but I mean, come on now.
This is -- this is serious business, and really at the heart of it, everybody has to ask themselves, when I think about Ronald Reagan, would Ronald Reagan have ever called up a nation that was in trouble in terms of somebody invading part of their country and say, listen, I'll help you out with some military aid, but you've got to go and investigate my political opponent?
[22:20:02]
I mean that would be -- that would be a fantasy movie. That just -- that just wouldn't happen. And that's what we're facing here. And it's not just about Donald Trump, Don, as you and I have talked. It's also about future presidents and what they can do because, you know, what troubles me as much as anything is the issue of the truth.
You know, you and I have had a lot of good back-and-forth about Ohio state and LSU. I say Ohio state is number one. You say no, they're not. I say, yes, they are. You say well, I've got the facts. I say you've got your facts. I've got my facts.
I mean, that's what's so amazing about this. The truth -- the truth about things in America today, the truth is -- it just depends on people's point of view. And, Don, you and I were never raised to think that the truth is a matter of opinion. The truth is a fact. And, you know, it's pretty remarkable.
So, when we look at this situation, we've got to think about the long- term implications for our country, and for people who are watching. That's why we have to get out of our silos. We have to listen to other people. But at the end of the day, there is truth. And we can't agree on basic facts, you tell me where this country is going for our children. Where is it going to go if we can't even agree on basic things?
LEMON: Yes.
KASICH: It's amazing to me.
LEMON: Well, that is true. Listen, I have to say that we saw Republicans push false narrative about the Bidens and Ukraine at the impeachment hearing.
KASICH: Make it up. Make it up.
LEMON: Just making stuff -- and argue about process rather than substance and about -- and really just about truth and about facts, right? Just pounding the table. Plus, this DOJ I.G. report obliterates the deep-state theory here. Now, listen, the FBI did mess up, right? There were some things that they needed to correct.
KASICH: And we should -- people should admit to it.
LEMON: Yes, and they should admit to it. Barr and Trump are disputing the facts here. What is this war on truth that we're talking about? What is this doing to our country here where the truth is on trial?
KASICH: It affects our culture, Don. You know, we got young people that are going to say, I'm not going to believe that because that's not my -- my opinion says something differently.
And by the way, I don't mean to say the Bidens weren't in Ukraine. They were involved somehow in Ukraine with Hunter being on the board and his father and all that. But when people said that Ukraine was really the one to disrupt the election and not Russia, and when you have intelligence officials come out and say, you know, that's the Russian line, I mean that's just made-up stuff. It's just not true. But yet they'll say, it is true. Ukraine did this thing.
I mean, what it does is it -- what are we going to believe in, Don? And then here's the thing. So, Horowitz comes out. He slaps the FBI. We're going to get Durham somewhere later. But what are we -- are we not going to believe anything? Are we not going to believe in any of our institutions? We don't believe in the press anymore. We don't believe in the Justice Department. We don't believe in the FBI. What do we believe in? What is it that we're supposed to have confidence in?
And this is really, really serious. You saw the report about what's happening in Afghanistan. People made stuff up. We got to get to the truth. We got to stand on the truth. We got to be for the truth.
LEMON: So, where did this -- John, where did this dear leader thing come from in your party?
KASICH: Well, you know, Don, after all the hearings, I thought that you would see some of the public move. But we're basically right where we started. I think it's all about, you know, this tribalism. You know, it's my team, and my team didn't do anything wrong. My team didn't videotape the Bengals. No, that never happened. I'm exaggerating, but I'm just saying my team makes excuses on both sides.
I will tell you this. I am so glad they didn't put anything about the Mueller report in because Democrats are in denial about the Mueller report, OK? It exonerated him. There was no collusion. Get over it. But now we got -- then we look at this Ukraine thing --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: John, John, you're not right on that. John, you're not right on that. The Mueller report found a number of instances of obstruction, but it found that it did not rise to the level -- the evidence that they had did not rise to the level. And also, that the Department of Justice, the rules that you cannot indict a sitting president. But there were a number of instances in the Mueller report. It was just that the attorney general spun the findings of the Mueller report.
But if you actually read the Mueller report, it was very damning. But you cannot say that there were no instances that Trump was exonerated from the Mueller report.
KASICH: Well, he -- Mueller -- look, I don't want to get into the Mueller report. We can have it --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: He said if the president -- he specifically said if the president was exonerated, I would say so. He didn't say that.
KASICH: No, I understand that. But, listen, I've listened to our legal -- we don't need to debate Mueller. All I'm trying to tell you is that's behind us, and I'm glad that the Democrats are focusing on this case of abuse of power.
[22:25:07]
They didn't go beyond that much in the obstruction of Congress and all that stuff, but what I'm saying to you is I think that they've taken a more responsible, constructive approach to doing it this way, and I'm glad that they did that. And they didn't go off in other kinds of degrees. I think it gives them more credibility.
But it doesn't matter because the Republicans are going to say, this is not the case. The Democrats are going to say it is the case. And where do we go from here, Don? How do we ever know what we're supposed to believe in?
So, people like you in the media, me too, we have to stand for the truth. We can't shade it. I'm proud of what you said, that Horowitz says, you know, that the FBI made mistakes. Good, admit it. Tell the truth. Find out what the evidence is. Remember that's what we said from the beginning. Get the evidence and then decide. But if you want to ignore the evidence because it doesn't feed your narrative, then you're not in search of the truth. The truth will set us free. I'm worried about this.
LEMON: But I also think that -- I think probably the biggest issue or one of the biggest issues is that people have to become -- and I'm not sure how we educate people to do this. They have to become more media literate.
KASICH: Yes.
LEMON: And I think that --
KASICH: Yes.
LEMON: That's part of the tribalism because people sit at home, and they think that opinion journalism is somehow fact-based journalism. They don't change the channel, they don't -- meaning radio, television. They don't read anything besides their --
(CROSSTALK)
KASICH: What they agreed.
LEMON: Whatever they agree with. And they're not media literate. They read maybe Facebook, fake news, or what have you, and it keeps them in their own silos, and they don't -- they may see something on CNN that is fact-based, and they'll say, they're not telling the truth. They hear the president --
(CROSSTALK)
KASICH: Yes, that's right.
LEMON: -- and people going fake news, fake news. And then CNN can tell them all day long something that is fact-based and they're never, ever going to believe it because they're listening to opinion hosts all day long.
KASICH: Don, I have traveled all over this country, and I beg people to get out of their silos.
LEMON: Yes.
KASICH: Absorb something that somebody else says and consider it. You may not have to agree with it, but don't say, I'm not going to pay attention to it because it doesn't jive with what I believe.
First of all, it makes you boring to do that. And secondly, it makes you obstinate. We need to open our minds to the facts. And if there's something that I have to change my mind about, that's OK. That's where we need to live.
But to live in a silo -- and I will only absorb that that I agree with, and I get angrier and angrier about what I think, and everybody else is wrong, well, you saw that story about the guy in Florida apparently knocked this woman to the ground arguing about this stuff.
LEMON: Yes.
KASICH: Right? I mean it's just ridiculous. But, Don, I'm worried about where we're going as a nation. I favor the impeachment. Part of the reason is I'm worried about future presidents. But I am worried about this issue of truth, this issue of facts. I swear that in this country today, if I said it was raining, somebody else would say it was sunny. LEMON: Yes.
KASICH: It's ridiculous, and we better get a grip because we're smarter and better than that as people. And I believe that at the end. The people will get it regardless of what the politicians say.
LEMON: Yes, I got to go, John. And we have to remember we don't --
(CROSSTALK)
KASICH: One last thing, Don.
LEMON: -- we don't elect the kings.
KASICH: Thank God for the press.
LEMON: Yes. All right, John.
KASICH: Thank God for the press.
LEMON: I wish you could see the monitor.
KASICH: Thank you.
LEMON: Sipping out of an LSU mug. Thank you, John. I'm glad you admitted that LSU is number one. Thank you, sir.
KASICH: Number two. Remember, I said that at the beginning.
LEMON: Thank you.
The president mocking the articles of impeachment and taunting his political opponents at a rally tonight. What he's saying versus what he's facing. That's next.
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: So the president's dismissing the articles of impeachment tonight, telling a crowd of supporters at a political rally that this is the lightest impeachment in the history of our country, yet abuse of power and obstruction of Congress are incredibly serious charges. Let's discuss now. John Dean is here, Kaitlan Collins is here as well. Good evening. Kaitlan, impeachment is on the president's mind tonight. This is him at a rally in Pennsylvania.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is the lightest, weakest impeachment. You know, our country has had actually many impeachments. You called judges and lots of -- many impeachments. But it was on today. Everybody said, this is impeachment-light. This is the lightest impeachment in the history of our country by far. It's not even like an impeachment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Oh, he's down playing it, but judges. He's the president, come on. OK. So listen, he's about to go down in history as an impeached president, yet he's taunting the Democrats. He can down play it all he wants, Kaitlan.
KELLYANNE CONWAY, WHITE HOUSE COUNSELOR: Well, Don, he really doesn't want to be impeached. Even if you see the president and his allies dismissing it, saying today, we knew this was coming, this unveiling of these two articles of impeachment, it's a very different standard than where they were earlier.
And the president often cites people like Bill Clinton, talking about the fact that he was impeached, which the president has said was a stain on his legacy, and of course, he's also fascinated with people like Richard Nixon. So the president also does not want to be associated with them though and have that stain of impeachment on his legacy. And that's why you see him essentially trying to frame it as saying his different -- his impeachment won't be as bad as theirs were.
LEMON: Yes. John, just two articles of impeachment, abuse of power, obstruction of Congress. Despite what this president is saying, this is still serious. Explain what these articles cover.
[22:35:10]
JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, FORMER NIXON WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: Well, first of all, they cover something that no other president has ever been impeached for, and that is for taking and using your office in the area of foreign affairs and national security for your personal benefit. Really is just outside the scope of all prior impeachments.
And what the Democrats have wisely done is taken a very narrow case, a case which they can literally prove on the floor of the Senate, because they have the witnesses to do it, and make that case. And that is clearly a constitutional violation of the impeachment clause.
The other thing they've added is obstruction of Congress. This is far worse than any president who has ever been in an impeachable situation in his obstruction. This is just so -- Trump is so wrong in his characterization of what he's dealing with.
LEMON: Is he going -- I mean, I have them right here. Is it good that it's narrow and I would imagine it keeps it sort of simple here, right? It's good for the public to --
DEAN: It does.
LEMON: -- to absorb and for the people who are considering, right?
DEAN: It does. And it does also, interestingly, in one clause in the second part, incorporate the Mueller report and the obstruction of justice. There's some language in there that says this follows --
LEMON: Obstruction of Congress. DEAN: -- Obstruction of Congress. That it follows a past precedent of
the president's behavior, and that way they can drive in those 10 examples or they have in the Mueller report as he's just doing what he's always done.
LEMON: Got it. Kaitlan, can you talk to me about -- because apparently there's this rift or divide between the president and the majority leader, Mitch McConnell, over impeachment. One of them wants it quick. The other wants to show and to last longer. What's going on?
COLLINS: Yes. They're at odds over what they want this Senate trial to look like, which is all by means what we saw today is what we are headed for. But Mitch McConnell wants a pretty quick trial. He wants this to be over with as quickly as possible. He wants it to be as painless as possible. And he does not want his conference having to take any votes that could potentially be damaging for them.
The president on the other side of Pennsylvania Avenue does not see it that way. He wants this to be a spectacle. He wants Hunter Biden testifying in person, the whistleblower, Adam Schiff. He wants essentially to -- I don't want to say get revenge, but he's been sitting back and watching these former and current aides come and testify about his conduct which they have described in large part as inappropriate.
And now the president finally feels like he gets to have his say, and he doesn't want it to be some quick trial like which is what Mitch McConnell has pretty much initiated and figured that is something he would like to see when it does come down to it.
LEMON: Kaitlan, John, thank you for your time. I appreciate it.
My next guest says President Trump is, quote, the founders' worst nightmare. President Obama's former attorney and White House counsel will weigh in on today's historic news and everything that led up to it next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:40:00]
LEMON: When President Trump and his allies defend his actions at the center of the Ukraine scandal, they never get into the substance of the accusations. Remember the facts of Trump's conduct. They aren't seriously in dispute. Instead, what we get our misrepresentations, lies, justifications, and deflections.
My next guest says those defenses are all part of a playbook that our founders feared. Bob Bauer is here. He served as White House counsel under President Obama, and he joins me now. Man, it's so good to have you on. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
BOB BAUER, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA: It's a pleasure.
LEMON: I want to talk more about your piece in the Times. But first can you just give me your overall thoughts on today's events. This was a historic day, Bob.
BAUER: Not many presidents are impeached as you know, and so of course anytime the House moves toward the approval of articles of impeachment, it is a very significant day in our political history. So, obviously what we're seeing, we don't expect to see repeated very often in the history of the presidency.
LEMON: Bob, I called you Bob Baer, I meant Bob Bauer. Sorry about that.
BAUER: No problem. Not at all.
LEMON: Listen, people are trying to claim that Democrats are only impeaching Trump because they hate him. But hating a president, it isn't enough to impeach someone. If that were the standard, it certainly seems like President Obama would have been impeached given the hate directed against him from the very beginning, right?
BAUER: Nobody suggests for a moment that hatred is an impeachable offense, and nobody suggests that there's no, I think, substance even on the Republican side. There are Republicans who acknowledge that there were acts by this president that were indefensible. They simply argue that those indefensible acts don't rise to the level of an impeachable offense.
The House obviously has concluded otherwise and laid out its case in those detailed articles today, the two articles that your guests were discussing previously. But this isn't a question about hatred. There's a record here on which these articles are based, and that record is replete with factual detail, and I might add a good bit of that detail was supplied -- in fact, the better part of it -- by members of Donald Trump's own administration testifying under oath in the Senate in the hearings scheduled and held by the House Intelligence Committee.
LEMON: I want to talk more about your piece that I have here in the Times. It's called Trump is the founders' worst nightmare. And here's what you wrote, you said President Trump has made full use of the demagogic playbook. He has refused all cooperation with the House. He lies repeatedly about the facts, holds public rallies to spread these falsehoods and attacks the credibility, motives, and even patriotism of witnesses. In fact, we see that very thing happening again just tonight, right?
[22:45:07]
BAUER: Yes. The president has decided that rather than, for example, engage with the House -- and who's to say what he will do with the Senate -- over the fundamental allegations that are going to be made here, he's attacking the entire process. He's in effect that creating an alternate reality in which there's nothing but malign motive being directed against him. There are no substantive responses for him to give. He merely questions the intent behind everything that has been alleged here.
And as I said, some of the better part of the testimony against him was delivered by members of his own administration in the Senate. But we see him, in fact, doing exactly as you suggest. That's his playbook. And the demagogue in American political history is a type that uses in effect lies and the vilification of the opposition to create an alternative reality like that. What it spares him, of course, is a substantive defense on the merits.
LEMON: Yes. And even the testimony against him is either oftentimes by himself, standing on the White House lawn asking other countries, foreign countries to meddle in our elections. You know, even his own words, right, he's often his own worst enemy. You also wrote that the behavior that makes impeachment -- it is his behavior that makes impeachment necessary, also makes for an escape hatch. Explain what you mean by that.
BAUER: The irresponsible -- the feckless demagogue, the one who engages in the conduct we're talking about, then after having gotten into trouble, if you will, with that behavior, utilizes exactly that same behavior to create the defense that I've just discusses. This creation of an alternative reality utilizing lies and the vilification of opposition, the refusal to engage with constitutional processes.
The article two that the House is preparing to vote on is really quite extraordinary. It details a president who simply has refused to recognize the House's authority to raise the question of impeachment, has refused to engage with the House on the merits at all. And that is in fact unprecedented.
LEMON: Bob, I really liked your piece in the Times. It's called Trump is the founders' worst nightmare. We appreciate you joining us here on CNN. We hope that you come back. Thank you so much, sir.
BAUER: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you. The Justice Department is at war with itself and right at the center of it all is President Trump. We're going to take a closer look at the spin coming from him and the Attorney General and what it is doing to this country.
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[22:50:00]
LEMON: President Trump lashing out at the FBI in pretty brutal terms tonight. Lying about them and casting slurs their way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The FBI also sent multiple under cover human spies to surveil and record people associated with our campaign. Look how they hurt people. Their lives have been destroyed by scum.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Here's to discuss. Asha Rangappa and Josh Campbell. Good evening to both of you. Wow. I mean --
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No words. LEMON: The President of the United States. Right? He had scathing
words to say about the FBI leadership at this rally. Lies, liars, human scum. Do you think the Director Christopher Wray is in trouble for telling the truth about the report, because -- and it didn't fit the Trump narrative?
ASHA RANGAPPA, CNN LEGAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes, I mean, I respected Director Wray a lot for accepting all of the findings of the I.G. report. Saying that there needed to be structural changes with respect to the FISA process, but also saying look, we also, you know, had this investigation for a reason. As you know, Don --
LEMON: It was that -- it was legal and unbiased.
RANGAPPA: That it was legal, that it was unbiased, that there was no political motivation even in many of the errors that they found in the FISA process. As you know, Don, this is not an administration that takes anything less than toeing the Party line. And the president has already fired an FBI Director before. You know, whether Christopher Wray is going to hang onto his job, I don't know. But he definitely did not make friends with the president as we saw with his tweet.
LEMON: The Attorney General says that he disagrees with the I.G.'s findings and this report and said that the Trump campaign was spied on during the investigation. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL BARROW, ASSOCIATED PRESS NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: -- clearly spied upon. I mean, that's what electronic surveillance is. I think wiring people up to go in and talk to people and make recordings of their conversations is spying. I think going through peoples e-mails which they did as a result of the FISA warrant. They went through everything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: To set the record straight here, was anyone wired and aren't these court approved investigative techniques?
CAMPBELL: Well, according to this independent Inspector General, no one was unlawfully quote, unquote spied upon for political reasons. And what's so fascinating is, if you go back to the first clip that we heard from the president, there appears to be some goal post shifting. Because all along the allegation was that the FBI was weaponized by President Obama to go after President Trump. Now he seems to be retreating from that a bit. Based, you know, this Inspector General findings. And just not saying they wiretapped me, they've spied upon me.
What's so fascinating here is you have now two firmly (inaudible) camps. On one side, you have the Inspector General, an independent aid political person and the current FBI Director, Christopher Wray, who has come out and said that look, spying is not a term that I would use. This investigation was properly predicated. On the other side of that camp, we find the president of the United States and his own Attorney General who continued to say despite this independent findings that there was spying. Which is just not a term that is used inside the hall of the Justice Department.
[22:55:04]
LEMON: Do they care at all about the damage they're doing to these respected institutions that we need in order to be the republic that -- the respected republic that we are?
RANGAPPA: I don't think so, Don. Look, the one goal of the Department of Justice is to instill public confidence in the administration of justice. And that's why I think, it was so disappointing to see some of the findings of the I.G. report, but also, you know, reassuring that the overall investigation was properly predicated. You know, the Attorney General needs to understand that the rule of law is about accepting the findings of a legitimate independent investigation whether or not you agree with all the findings. You can't cherry pick it and pick that ones that you like and that fit your narrative.
LEMON: Thank you, both. I have to go. I appreciate it. We'll be right back.
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