Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

President Trump Claims Victory for his USMCA Trade Deal; Democrats Ready with Their Impeachment Against President Trump; President Trump and Democrats Each Claim Victory as Trade Deal is Reached with Mexico and Canada; President Trump and GOP Allies Push Debunked Theory that Ukraine Interfered in 2016 Election; Trump Hosts Top Russian Diplomat in Oval Office Behind Closed Doors. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired December 10, 2019 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

There is a lot to get to on this historic night and we're going to catch you up on all the headlines in the hour ahead.

It is official. President Trump will become the fourth president to face impeachment for high crimes and misdemeanors. Tomorrow night the House judiciary committee will take up the two articles of impeachment, abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. The committee will vote on Thursday and the full House could vote in a matter of days.

So how is the White House and the Republican Party dealing with the articles of impeachment and an inspector general report that debunked conspiracy theories. Gaslighting. We'll explain the dangerous tactic.

Also, the House Speaker Nancy Pelosi giving President Trump a major legislative victory today just after announcing articles of impeachment against him. Is the trade deal a win for both parties?

Now we all know the president of Ukraine didn't get an Oval Office meeting with Trump. But guess who did? Russia's foreign minister. A man representing the country that interfered in the 2016 election. And it's unclear if election meddling was even discussed.

Despite what he says impeachment is clearly getting to President Trump. Here's what he said at a rally tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: This is the lightest, weakest impeachment. You know our country had actually many impeachments. You call judges and lots of it. Many impeachments. But it was on today everybody said this is impeachment light.

But the word impeachment to me is a very, very ugly word. It's a dark ugly word. As bad as it is it meant something when you had serious high crimes and misdemeanors. When you had serious crimes, it's impeachment. That would happen every 50 years. Every 40 years. Every 100 years. This was a big deal. They're making it so like let's do it every six months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well let's get to the big picture right now with Charlie Dent, Susan Glasser, and Harry Litman. Good evening to one and all.

Susan, I'm going to start with you. President Trump taunting Democrats, railing against impeachment but no amount of spinning or lies is going to erase this stain from his legacy, right?

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, Don, I think it's a good point. I mean, look, you had the two articles of impeachment today. It's interesting to hear him characterize it as impeachment light. The first article accuses him of abuse of power of his office. The second article accuses him of obstruction of Congress. These are serious charges and allegations against the president.

In fact, I covered the last impeachment of Bill Clinton this is much more serious in terms of the charges that are being outlined against President Trump in the sense that they are alleging something that goes to the core of his constitutional function as president which is the protection of the national security of the United States.

resident Bill Clinton was accused of essentially lying and misleading the American public perjuring himself not in the conduct of his official duties. So, I think this is in terms of the allegations against President Trump it's hard to see them anything as other than extremely serious.

And I agree with your introduction, Don. That he seems to be extremely rattled by this. A 105 tweets on Sunday. That's a Trump record for those who are keeping track at home. And this is a man whose got impeachment on the brain right now.

LEMON: I haven't tweeted 105 times in 105 days. Wow. This is nuts. harry, let me bring you in here. Because he's right in this as impeachment light. Do you think Democrats should have gone bigger and broader with these articles instead of -- because they kept them narrow. It's -- look, it's pretty thin, right?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: It is.

LEMON: Keeping them is, is that a good thing to keep them this narrow?

LITMAN: So, I think there's basic conflict here between like, tactics and strategy on the one hand, and history and constitutional norms on the other hand. The practical side won out. That Pelosi was worried about the fate of the Dems who are in somewhat -- who, Trump country also trying to avoid difficult legal arguments to make.

So fine, you know, that would be a normal strategy say, for a prosecutor. But the upshot is some really objectionable impeachable behavior like what we -- what we memorialize in the Mueller report.

[23:05:05]

Telling somebody to fire Comey and then lie about it might go down as not impeachable. It might actually seem OK for future presidents. We'll see. The facts are so lurid and so vivid. But that was the balance and the short-term pragmatic case won out.

LEMON: Hello, Charlie Dent. Let's see. The president of the United States is calling the -- calling the chairman of the intelligence committee -- I hate to say this -- a crooked bastard. I mean, how do Republicans stand by that?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think this has been part of the strategy all along, Don, rather than argue about the facts of the case and the evidence. You know, it's better to scream process and say nasty things about Adam Schiff and try to make it about -- and try to make this impeachment process about anything other than the facts and the actual abuse of power and using his office to solicit a foreign head of government to help his campaign.

I mean, it's that simple. Plus, the quid pro quo. So, it's easier for them to talk about Adam Schiff. Yes, it's not that kind, it's not pleasant, but you know, this president has engaged in insults and name calling before. So, I guess we really shouldn't be shocked.

LEMON: All right. Harry, let's go, I have the articles in front of me, let's dig into it, OK?

LITMAN: OK.

LEMON: Part of the first article. President Trump abuse the power of the presidency by ignoring and injuring national security and other vital national interests to obtain an improper personal political benefit. He has also betrayed the nation by abusing his high office to enlist a foreign power in corrupting Democratic elections. Words like injuring, betrayed, corrupting these are now forever tied to this president.

LITMAN: And national security. So, two things jump out. They've described bribery but they decided to avoid actually charging it. And there's a really strong theme not only of abusing office by putting his personal fortunes ahead of the nation but endangering national security. Which is not a feature we have seen in any other impeachment before. But was one of the things that most concerned the framers. So, they decide to go big on the theme.

LEMON: Charlie, President Clinton addressed impeachment today. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Congress is doing what they believe is right. American people will see. Is it true and is it what they say, and is it what should be done with it if it's true? Meanwhile, the rest of us should go about our lives and all of us commenting on it won't have anything to do with it. They should do their job. I'll do mine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, Charlie, Clinton was the last president to be impeached but he survived and worked through it. Does President Trump have any chance of redefining this on his terms?

DENT: Well, you mean the impeachment itself? I mean, look, the impeachment, you know, that this is already being presented to us as it is. And I suspect, you know, if President Trump is smart about this, he's going to have a stain on his legacy. But, you know, he can still try to salvage his presidency. I would think. You know, wry to get some things done.

You know, Bill Clinton was impeached but at the end of the day, you know, he walked out with a presidency that you could argue was successful. So, if I were Donald Trump, I would try to prove the American people I'm worthy of the office I hold even if I'm going to be impeached, and he will be.

LEMON: All right, Susan, let's look at the articles again. This is from the obstruction of Congress article.

In the history of the republic no president has ever ordered the complete defiance of an impeachment inquiry or sought to obstruct and impede so comprehensively the ability of the House of Representatives to investigate high crimes and misdemeanors. This abuse of office served to cover up the president's own repeated misconduct and to seize and control the power of impeachment - and thus to nullify a vital Constitution safeguard vested solely in the House of Representatives.

I mean this goes to the heart of the separation of powers and the House Speaker Pelosi said that she had to act.

GLASSER: Well, it's interesting because of course first of all, President Trump has chosen a maximal interpretation of his prerogatives, vis-a-vis Congress since the second the Democrats won the House a year ago. Right? He's refused to cooperate with all investigations including this impeachment inquiry even though impeachment itself is a constitutional function.

I think what's controversial and we'll see how history ultimately regards it, is the Democrats have made a choice to pursue this without pursuing litigation to enforce the subpoena. So, Congress subpoenaed testimony from Mick Mulvaney, for example, the acting White House chief of staff who seemed to be directly implicated and right in the middle of President Trump's order to withhold nearly $400 million in military aid to Ukraine.

[23:10:00]

Mulvaney didn't testify. A dozen congressional officials -- I mean, administration officials were subpoenaed by Congress but Congress did not go to court to pursue this. And they essentially said well, we're just going to charge that as obstruction and we're going to move forward quickly.

And so, I think that is a decision they've made. It's a political decision about wanting to move ahead as fast as possible with this impeachment process with the election year looming. But it's interesting because they would have had a strong case in the courts and would that have given them even more essentially political rational to try it get some Republican members to join in on the impeachment? We'll never know the answer to that.

But I do think it's a controversial decision they made. But the flip side is Bill Clinton who you just saw here, Richard Nixon, even they participated on some level. Had their staffs participate. They turned over documents. So, this has never happened before. The complete stonewall that Donald Trump has ordered and you know, the Constitution does not envision the executive simply refusing to participate in a constitutionally dictated process like impeachment.

LEMON: Which would be, sounds like obstruction. Harry, listen, I want to turn quickly to the Attorney General Bill Barr --

LITMAN: Yes.

LEMON: -- for just a moment. You originally said that you supported --

(CROSSTALK)

LITMAN: Here you go.

LEMON: But you know, you since have gone back on that. Looking at how Barr is now attacking the DOJ report on the origins of the Russia investigation that he's gone from bad to worse in his defense of the president.

LITMAN: He's a rogue attorney general now who's acting sheerly politically. It's not just what he said, no one has ever undermined the whole point of an inspector general is to have an apolitical factual determination and stay by it. The timing of it, it seems just designed to give Trump a talking point at rallies as he made today. It's just, it's deplorable. It's the perhaps biggest example so far of the politicization of the department under him.

Can I make a very quick point to Susan?

LEMON: Yes, quickly please.

LITMAN: Yes. Quite quickly. He didn't simply -- the court argument won't work that well because they led with their chant and said the whole thing is constitutionally invalid. That's going to come back to bite them.

GLASSER: You mean the whole impeachment process? Yes, absolutely. They basically said we don't recognize your Constitution.

LITMAN: Right.

GLASSER: We're going to have a different one.

LITMAN: Right.

LEMON: All right. Thank you all. I appreciate it.

LITMAN: Thank you. Thank you.

LEMON: Spinning, misrepresenting, ignoring the truth. President Trump and his Republican allies gaslighting on the articles of impeachment, the Justice Department inspector general's report. You name it. We're going to talk about it next.

[22:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: President Trump tonight in full on gaslighting mode. Spinning the facts, not just on impeachment but on the findings of the Justice Department's report on the Russia investigation.

Remember as you listen to these next comments that you're being gas lit. And after we are -- we're going to explain exactly how it all works so that you can recognize it as it happens because there's a pattern.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Folks, they spied on our campaign. OK? They spied.

They knew right at the beginning that it was all a frame up.

They've destroyed the lives of people. That were great people. That are still great people. Their lives have been destroyed by scum.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Facts first. None of that is true. The report found that the launch of the Russia investigation was legally sound, unbiassed and that no spying occurred. Although there were -- there were errors over surveillance applications for Carter Page. OK? That is a God's honest truth. Read the report if you don't believe me.

Joining me now Wajahat Ali and Amanda Carpenter who literally wrote the book on "Gaslighting America: Why We Love It When Trump Lies To Us." I mean, Amanda, when did you write this book? When did this book come out?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It came out in May 2018 but I actually started drafting it during the summer of 2016 when we watched Trump gaslighting go into full effect during the campaign after he secured the nomination.

LEMON: You were on this show, you were on CNN and on this show, what, leading up during the campaign, during the -- you have been on this show for years talking about this. We have lived this. You outline five points on how the president gaslights America. Here they are. You say --

CARPENTER: Yes.

LEMON: You say -- he's now using the full powers of his office to gaslight. So, walk us through these five points. So, how do they work?

CARPENTER: Yes, I mean, this is a pattern that repeats itself all the time. You can it most clearly with how he came on the scene with birtherism. But yes, he always states a claim, right? So, the claim that he's been advancing when it comes to the Russia investigation now Ukraine is that the deep state has been out to get him.

I mean, he started that on day one since he became president. And then he does this thing that I call advance and deny where he says well, maybe I fired Comey because of Russia, maybe I didn't. So, he kind of like puts these things out there without taking responsibility.

But then eventually he does. He always promises vindication is coming. It is on the way. This is step three that I call create suspense. You know, the Nunes memo will reveal all. Wait, the Horowitz report. No, wait, no wait for the Durham report.

There's always something, right, that's on the way but it never comes. And while you're waiting for that to come, he goes into full attack mode against his opponent. You know, just look at the rally tonight, he attack, attack, attack. And while he's in that step he forces his opponent into boxes.

[23:20:01]

And this is usually where he knocks them off balance, gets them to make mistakes in a way that he can claim victory in the end regardless of the facts. And this pattern has just -- I can't believe how often it repeats itself. And once you see these steps you can't unsee them.

He's a one trick pony. This is all he does. It's very successful. But this is just, this is how he rolls, Don.

LEMON: It's -- Wajahat, you're brilliant by the way, Amanda. Wajahat, it is the same thing that happens in conservative media. If you watch them, they do the exact same thing with conspiracy theories, right? They have these conspiracies theories. It's like they had with the Horowitz report and all these things and they do it and then all of a sudden it's not true and then they declare a victory or what have you, just proven not true.

And they just move on to the next conspiracy theory. Sometimes they don't even address them or they declare a victory and what have you, and then they just go on to the next thing and nobody calls them on it. But it's the same thing. They do the exact same thing that Amanda is talking about.

WAJAHAT ALI, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, and I don't know if Amanda realized it but she just outlined authoritarianism 101. That's text book fascism. You first and foremost attack the truth and you attack all messengers of the truth. Anyone who goes against you is an institution that must be brought down and cannot be trusted. The only sole source of information to truth is the great leader or the chosen one. That is Trump.

You have three major conspiracy theories now, Don, which is -- which are very terrifying. Number one, the deep state conspiracy the (Inaudible) theory which the FBI itself said is a major domestic terror threat now. They believed that individuals and groups leading up to 2020 will be radicalized. That says that all law enforcement is against Trump even though like you said, the report said nope, it was a very valid investigation.

The second conspiracy theory. George Soros the Jew is controlling all these institutions and powers and he's funding an invasion of immigrants and rapists and killers, anti-Semitism and white nationalism is the second conspiracy theory. And the third one promoted by even Senator Cruz, promoted by Senator Kennedy, Mark Meadows openly promoting Russian disinformation that Ukraine and not Russia was responsible for the hacking.

So, they're actively bringing down America and hurting our national security for Trump and the fasting bargain they've made with Trump. And the question I have for all the viewers and for you, Don, is when one of the two political parties in this country has become a minority party with an extremist ideology promoting conspiracy theories willing to burn down all institutions for Trump how will democracy survive?

LEMON: I don't know. But I have to tell you, everything you just described is how you get people to vote against their own interests.

ALI: Yes.

LEMON: And that's exactly -- it is -- my gosh.

ALI: Create an enemy. Everyone against Trump is the enemy even Republicans, Don.

LEMON: Yes.

ALI: It's not just law enforcement, media, Democrats, immigrants, even Republicans. Everyone else is the enemy. Trust me, I'm your leader.

LEMON: I got to ask you this, Amanda. The Attorney General William Barr joining in on the President Trump's trashing the findings of the report of the origins of the Russia investigation, ignoring the facts and going against the FBI direct -- I mean, he's fully complicit, a fully complicit in the gaslighting scheme he's helping to provide cover.

CARPENTER: Yes, absolutely. He knows better. And the way that you know he knows better is by how carefully he's using his language and conflating spying with surveillance. And then did you notice he adopted that third step. We're going to have more people look into it.

More suspense. There's more vindication coming. But this, you know, what I mean when I try to tell people the peak -- we are watching peak gaslighting. It's going to get worse.

LEMON: Right.

CARPENTER: When you think of Trump as a candidate in 2016 it was just him, a handful of misfit surrogates and, you know, Fox News on a good day. Right? This time around he has the entire Republican Party, a Senate -- a House that will do his bidding. Senate Republicans that will do his bidding, an A.G. Millions and millions and millions of dollars in spending that is going to flood the air waves.

I mean, this is going to be gaslighting on steroids. And there's this belief that sustains that somehow all these lies will bring him down. No, the lies are what made him strong so far. And I fear that the Democrats believe that well, you know, everyone can't stand Trump we're going to win the election. We don't really have to get into this arena and compete for the, you know, hearts and minds of America and win this media fight. That is sorely mistaken. They should not make that mistake again.

LEMON: I hope they're listening to you. You are exactly right. Both of you. Thank you.

ALI: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: See you soon. I appreciate it. Not only did Democrats announce the articles of impeachment today but they also made a deal with him. A really big important trade deal. And it's got some people asking whose victory is this really?

[23:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Just an hour and a half after unveiling articles of impeachment against President Trump Democrats handed him one of the biggest legislative victories of his presidency, a deal on North American trade. So, here's how the president described it at his rally tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We have been waiting for a long time for Nancy Pelosi to announce USMCA.

(CROWD BOOING)

TRUMP: And she did it on the same day that they announced that they are going to impeach.

(CROWD BOOING)

TRUMP: And the reason they announced it on the same day. One hour later they announce impeachment. You know why? It's a huge deal and it plays down the impeachment because they are embarrassed by the impeachment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[23:30:09]

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: But Democrats are claiming victory, too. Let's discuss. Catherine Rampell is here, Joe Lockhart as well. Good evening. Joe, you heard President Trump. He says Democrats announce this USMCA agreement on the same day of the impeachment because they were embarrassing. What do you say? Why do they?

JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He said a lot of things in that really that are aren't true. That's just one of them. Democrats aren't embarrassed at all. I am an old school Clinton Democrat. My president used to always say, good policy always makes good politics. This at the end of the day was good policy.

The Democrats, I think, doubt a lot in the negotiation because Trump was desperate to get a deal. I think actually Canada and Mexico got a fair amount. At the end of the day, this was a good deal, the best trade deal they were going to get.

And I think on a secondary level for the Democrats politics, it shows that they're going to continue doing the people's business while they're impeaching the president. The first major announcement after Nancy Pelosi was Mitch McConnell saying, oh, we can't possibly take this up until after impeachment.

LEMON: Yeah.

LOCKHART: I think now we're going to have to ask who's doing the people's business.

LEMON: Yeah. Catherine, you may not realize I work the night shift, right, so I get home late, woke up, had a bowl of cereal and took a little nap. I woke up and had a bowl of cereal and saw the articles of impeachment. I took a little nap and then like woke up an hour later and it was like wait a minute, they just did something with the president. First, what happened?

(LAUGHTER)

CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. I mean, normally we forgot what normalcy sounds like. But normally, it would not be good news, right, that the president and the House came together on something of bipartisan.

LEMON: Why announce it though given -- why announce, you think, and give him the sort of winning talking point, though?

RAMPELL: I think Democrats are trying to prove that they can walk and chew gum at the same time, right? There are also Democrats from moderate districts, districts that Trump had won, that had been suffering as a result of these trade wars.

And there has been demand for more certainty, whether because -- more certainly because their manufacturing businesses in those areas that are dealing with a lot of uncertainty, what are the rules that there (ph) are going to be, maybe the farmers that are dealing with retaliatory tariffs or whatever. So they are clamouring for some resolution to this mess.

Now, does that mean that Democrats got the credit for resolving the mess or does Trump get the credit for it? I don't know. I think we'll have to see.

LEMON: I think there's enough to go around.

RAMPELL: Well, yeah. I mean, both sides are clearly claiming victory at this point. Trump is saying I negotiated this great deal. Democrats are saying, well, you negotiated a deal. We approved upon it. The truth of the matter is the deal is not really that different from NAFTA, the deal that it replaced.

LEMON: Yeah.

LOCKHART: Yeah.

LEMON: Because Nancy Pelosi is saying, well, we ate their lunch. What do you think? Who gets a victory here?

LOCKHART: I would say she spent more time at the buffet than Trump, not from the physical looks of it, but I think they got more at the end because Trump was so desperate. But if you take one step back, Trump ran saying that I'm going to get rid of these worse trade deals in history, the worst trade deals.

NAFTA was a good trade deal. It was negotiated by a Republican president. It was passed by a Democratic president and the Democratic president had to lean on the Democratic Party to get enough votes. This was supported in large by Republicans with some Democrats coming across to support it.

It's a bipartisan idea. There were things that needed to be fixed. They were fixed. But, you know, as Catherine said, all this is a slight upgrade from NAFTA, which Trump said was the worst trade deal in history. Well, his big victory is resigning the same bill he called the worst trade deal.

(LAUGHTER)

RAMPELL: Well, actually, it's funnier than that --

LOCKHART: Yes.

RAMPELL: -- in a sense that it's creating (ph) a lot from another deal that he also said was the worst trade deal in history, the transpacific partnership, which he pulled us out of. So we kind of like mashed together supposedly the two worst trade deals in history to come up with the best trade deal.

LEMON: So this is NAFTA and TPP that --

RAMPELL: Yes. LEMON: -- sort of --

RAMPELL: Yeah. And there are some other changes as well.

LEMON: It is a bipartisan deal that has been in the works for a while. Was Trump the only person who could bring the GOP to the table to do this? Do you think --

RAMPELL: No.

LEMON: No?

RAMPELL: No, I don't think so. Like I said, most of what's in this deal was in the previous deal with some language cribbed from TPP, which Republicans have supported. The thing that's the biggest change has to do with the automotive rules of origin which probably Republicans would not have supported, I would guess --

LEMON: Yeah.

RAMPELL: -- it's not clear if in the end it will end up bringing more jobs to the United States. There is mixed evidence so far.

LEMON: Right. But as I said earlier, this is one deal.

[23:35:00]

LEMON: He's like, well, you know, they're working together. Let's see if they can do it again, one deal.

RAMPELL: Like I said, normally this would not be news.

LOCKHART: This will make Amanda's paperback gaslighting book, this whole --

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Thank you both. I appreciate it. President Trump meeting with Russia's top diplomat today, but they don't agree about what was discussed. Plus, the debunk conspiracy theories playing out in the impeachment inquiry and how they led back to Vladimir Putin or lead back to Vladimir Putin. We'll break it all down, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: President Trump meeting today with Russia's top diplomat in the Oval Office as House Democrats introduced two articles of impeachment against him.

The get-together happening as the president and his allies in Congress push a debunked conspiracy theory that U.S. Intel agencies say was planted by Moscow, that Ukraine interfered in the 2016 election, not Russia. More tonight from Athena Jones.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ATHENA JONES, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ukraine is at the center of Democrats' impeachment inquiry. But Russia looms large. U.S. Intelligence agencies concluding the country, acting on orders from President Vladimir Putin, meddled in the 2016 election to benefit President Trump, something Russia continues to deny, while promoting the debunked conspiracy theory that it was Ukraine that interfered.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov today is calling claims of Russian meddling baseless. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo is pushing back.

MIKE POMPEO, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: On the question of interference in our domestic affairs, I was clear. It's unacceptable. And I made our expectations of Russia clear. The Trump administration will always work to protect the integrity of our elections period.

JONES (voice-over): But despite Pompeo's strong words, the president and his allies are relying on that disproven theory to defend Trump. In public hearings --

STEPHEN CASTOR, ATTORNEY: Ukraine worked to sabotage the Trump campaign by publicly questioning his fitness for office.

REP. GUY RESCHENTHALER (R-PA): There was an attempt to influence our elections. That's troubling and that's why President Trump brought it to the attention of President Zelensky.

JONES (voice-over): And on the airways.

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): I think both Russia and Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): Ukraine blatantly interfered in our election.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Raise your right hand.

JONES (voice-over): Attorney Daniel Goldman spelling out that Democrats case that Trump in exchange for much needed security aide at a coveted Oval Office meeting demanded that Ukraine's leader announce two investigations that would benefit him politically. One into former Vice President Joe Biden and his son Hunter, and the second --

DANIEL GOLDMAN, TRIAL ATTORNEY AND LEGAL ANALYST SERVING AS MAJORITY COUNSEL IN THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY AGAINST DONALD TRUMP: The second investigation sought to elevate an entirely debunked conspiracy theory promoted by Russian President Vladimir Putin that Ukraine interfered in the last presidential election to support the Democratic nominee.

JONES (voice-over): Trump's former Russia expert, Fiona Hill, slamming that theory during her testimony last month.

FIONA HILL, FORMER OFFICIAL AT THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL SPECIALIZING IN SOVIET, RUSSIAN, AND EUROPEAN AFFAIRS: This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves.

JONES (voice-over): Goldman argued that fictional narrative went at least as far back as February 2017, pointing to a Putin press conference.

GOLDMAN: -- President Putin said. Second, as we all know, during the presidential campaign in the United States, the Ukrainian government adopted a unilateral position in favor of one candidate.

TRUMP: Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing.

JONES (voice-over): Trump, who invited Russia to find Clinton's e- mails during the 2016 campaign, disagrees with the conclusion by U.S. intelligence agencies that Russia did in fact intervene to help him win.

TRUMP: Dan Coats came to me and some others. They said they think it is Russia. I have president Putin. He just said it is not Russia. I will say this. I don't see any reason why it would be.

JONES (voice-over): After a backlash, the president tried to walk back his comments. Still by May of this year, he appeared convinced Ukraine had worked against him in 2016.

KURT VOLKER, FORMER UNITED STATES SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR UKRAINE NEGOTIATIONS: He said that Ukraine was a corrupt country, full of terrible people. He said they tried to take me down.

JONES (voice-over): Trump's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, still pushing theories about Ukraine that have no basis, in fact.

RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY TO PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: I asked the Ukraine to investigate the allegations that there was interference in the election of 2016 by the Ukrainians for the benefit of Hillary Clinton.

CHRISTOPHER WRAY, DIRECTOR OF FBI: We have no information that indicates that Ukraine interfered with the 2016 presidential election.

JONES (voice-over): But even after a classified briefing this fall where U.S. Intelligence officials told senators that Russia has engaged in a years-long campaign to shift the blame away from themselves and on to Ukraine, Republicans continue to point the finger at Ukraine, something Hill argues benefits Russia.

HILL: The impact of the successful 2016 Russian campaign remains evident today. Our nation is being torn apart. Truth is questioned. Right now, Russia's security services and their proxies have geared up to repeat their interference in the 2020 election. We're running out of time to stop them.

JONES (voice-over): Athena Jones, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Athena, thank you very much. A lot to discuss. Julia Ioffe and Tom Nichols will break it all down, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: President Trump meeting Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov in the Oval Office on the same day the House announces articles of impeachment. With Russia looming so large in the impeachment process, why meet now?

Joining me now to discuss, Julia Ioffe, Tom Nichols as well. Good evening to both of you. Julia, the official White House readout of this meeting says that President Trump warned against any Russian attempts to interfere in the United States elections and urged Russia to resolve the conflict with Ukraine.

[23:50:05]

LEMON: So when asked tonight, Lavrov wouldn't give a clear answer about whether he was warned or not. Is he intentionally muddying the waters on this, do you think? What's going on?

JULIA IOFFE, CORRESPONDENT, GQ: I think so. No one trolls like the Russian troll. I mean, if you watched the press conference between Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Sergey Lavrov, you'll see that Pompeo says basically the same thing, which is also funny. I mean, you can see he is just paying lip service and you can see that Lavrov doesn't react to it like, yeah, we'll get right on that.

And Lavrov actually goes into this whole spiel about how both countries have interfered in each other's elections and there's no evidence that Russia interfered in American election. If we want, we can go back to the memorandum signed between FDR and Stalin in 1933 about not interfering in each other's political affairs. I mean, it's just classic Russian bureaucratic ninjaness (ph) to kind of muddy the waters and not admit to the obvious.

LEMON: Tom, today Lavrov also offered to release correspondence between Moscow and Washington. He is saying that Trump administration had refused to let them do it. Pompeo pushed back on that. But is Lavrov making these comments just to troll to cause political chaos?

TOM NICHOLS, AUTHOR, FORMER REPUBLICAN SENATE STAFFER: Lavrov seems to be having the time of his life.

LEMON: Right. He's having fun, right?

NICHOLS: Of course. The Russians are in the driver's seat here. They know that President Trump is deathly afraid of them. He's not going to cross them. He's not going to contradict them. Lavrov can say anything he wants and the White House is just going to take it. Pompeo, Julia is right, Pompeo says this kind of gamely because he has to --

IOFFE: Mm-hmm.

NICHOLS: -- but without much conviction. And Lavrov sort of shrugs and says, yeah, whatever. And nothing changes. I mean, this is -- you know, Lavrov is clearly enjoying this. You know, if you were the Russian foreign minister, you'd be enjoying it, too.

LEMON: Yeah. So, Julia, let me ask you. Let's take a step back here then. So this meeting with Trump and Lavrov even have happened today? Did the Russians do anything to earn this?

IOFFE: Well, yeah, they helped him win the presidency.

(LAUGHTER)

IOFFE: Right? If you're Trump, you've earned it. And in fact, the Ukrainians who have been dying for a White House visit haven't earned it. They haven't meddled in the elections the way Trump has asked them to. So they didn't do what was asked of them. I think it's telling that Lavrov got a White House meeting for no reason the day that Trump's impeachment -- articles of impeachment are announced.

Last time Lavrov was in the White House, it was the day after he fired Comey, and he told the Russians, you know, I fired him over this Russia thing. Also here's some super classified Israeli intelligence that you just might want to see.

And, you know, we still don't know what happened in that hour that he was in the White House. And I have a feeling in the coming days and weeks, we're going to be finding out that Trump said some pretty -- again, I'm speculating, but if last time was anything to go by, given that Trump hasn't changed, I'm guessing we're going to learn that Trump said some pretty eyebrow-raising things.

LEMON: Yeah. Before the break, Tom, we saw the story that Athena Jones put together for us. When you look at how much the Republicans -- these talking points are -- they're in line with Russia's message. It is striking, right?

NICHOLS: And I don't think there's -- with the exception of, you know, Jim Jordan or maybe Rudy Giuliani, I don't think there's really a Republican in Washington who believes any of this stuff. The problem is that they are all have to get in line with this cult of personality and reverse engineer all of their comments to match whatever Trump is saying at any given moment.

And what Trump is saying is basically, as his own Russia expert keeps telling him, his now former Russia expert kept telling him, this is a Russian narrative. This is something pumped by the former KGB, by the Russian intelligence services, and it doesn't matter. Trump repeats it. The GOP repeats it. And, again, what really makes it appalling is this is being parroted by people who know better. They know.

LEMON: So, Tom, why does he say it?

NICHOLS: They know this is false.

LEMON: Why does he say it?

NICHOLS: I think he believes it. I think Putin said it to him. I think the president really believes that whatever the -- whatever large group of people around him, experts, intelligence officials, whatever they tell him must be wrong because he's the smartest guy in the room.

And if his pal, Vladimir Putin, who also is his friend and scares him, tells him that Ukraine is out to get him, then Ukraine is out to get him.

[23:55:00]

NICHOLS: And he's got Rudy Giuliani running around trying to prove it.

IOFFE: Don, can I just add something real quick?

LEMON: I'm out of time, if you can do it quickly.

IOFFE: Very quick. This line that Republicans know better and they don't believe this but they're just saying it, you know, to quote Kurt Vonnegut, you are what you pretend to be, so you best be careful who you pretend to be.

NICHOLS: We have to be careful -- yes, absolutely.

LEMON: You guys answer question. I wonder if they believe it because I didn't think anybody could believe that. But they are just paring (ph) it because they need to --

IOFFE: It doesn't matter. They're our elected officials.

LEMON: They're saying it, yeah.

IOFFE: They are our highest elected officials.

NICHOLS: Right, I agree.

IOFFE: And they're saying it. It doesn't matter what they believe.

LEMON: Thank you both. I appreciate it. We're out of time. Thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:00:00]