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Don Lemon Tonight

Questions of Facts and Truth and Democracy in America; House of Representative to Vote on the Impeachment of Trump; Lessons for U.S. in U.K.'s Elections; Civility in Politics; Trump's Campaign Reaching Out to Black Voters; Former Breitbart Editor Says Stephen Miller is a White Supremacist. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired December 13, 2019 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. There's a lot to get to tonight and we're going catch you up on all the headlines in the hour ahead.

Republicans prove during the marathon Judiciary Committee hearings on the articles of impeachment that facts don't really matter. They're following President Trumps play book. Lie constantly, mislead, gaslight until the American people don't know what to believe. Can democracy function when facts are discarded? When truth doesn't matter? We're going to look at the big picture.

Also, he is a controversial, charismatic, divisive celebrity politician and he was re-elected in a landslide -- no, not Donald Trump. I'm talking about U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson. Are there lessons in the results for the United States? We'll take a look.

Plus, the state of the race. With the country increasingly divided in the Trump era, the top Democratic candidates seem to be falling into two distinct camps, the fighters and the healers.

And, is civility an overrated concept in American life and politics? Ahead, one of my guests argues the gravest danger to American democracy is not an excess of vitriol, but the false promise of civility. What exactly does that mean? We'll discuss.

Also, President Trump's re-election campaign making a big push to reach out to Black voters. We'll see if he has a chance at succeeding. And this, is President Trump's top aide, Stephen Miller a white supremacist? A former Breitbart editor says yes and says she has e- mails to prove it. We'll take a look at them.

But first, I want to focus on the war on truth in this country. Here to discuss Julia Ioffe, Max Boot and Matt Lewis. Good evening to all of you. Max, to you first. It seems like that we're living in an alternate universe where facts don't matter.

This week we saw extraordinary gas lighting from the White House and from the GOP quite frankly. What has happened to the truth in this country?

MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, I think it's kind of gone the same place as kind of the sense of decency and humanity you normally expect from a president. You know, Donald Trump has set an extraordinary example where the "Washington Post" has documented more than 14,000 falsehoods that he has uttered since taking office, and that was like a month ago.

So, he's probably up to, you know, 15,000 by now. We have never seen a president who was more untruthful and that really rubs off on his party and, you know, his party kind of follows him along. And now they realize that whatever they say doesn't need to have any relationship to the truth.

And of course Fox News is exactly the same way. I mean, they just flat out lie. And you saw a great example of that this week with the release of the inspector general report from the Justice Department, which basically exploded all of the conspiracy theories from Trump and Fox about how the FBI was supposedly out to get Trump because, you know, they hated him politically.

The I.G. showed that wasn't true, but it didn't matter. They all said all of (inaudible) vindicated. In fact, Trump even said this is far worse than anything I could have imagined. So, he was completely demolished by this report and he claims it completely supported him.

And of course, that's the message that people on Fox News are getting because unlike this network, they're not exposed to competing viewpoints and so they actually believe the propaganda they get. And so Trump realizes he doesn't have -- whatever he says doesn't have to have relationship to the truth. His followers won't believe it anyway and his supporters in Congress are acting exactly, you know, on that belief.

LEMON: But Max, I'm wondering though, is this more than an attack on the truth? Is it more about that because how can we -- how can our democracy function? How can we have a democracy when we can't even agree on what's real and what's fake?

BOOT: It's a huge assault on the truth and it sometimes feels, Don, like assault on our very sanity. I mean, it really makes you question your -- you know, what's up and what's down. When Trump keeps saying read the transcript. It was a perfect call. Well, we all read the transcript and we know it wasn't perfect.

We know that was a phone call with Zelensky that is getting him impeached because he was demanding that the president of Ukraine investigate his political rival. But Trump just flat out says, no, that didn't happen. It was a perfect call. And most the Republicans that we heard in the last couple of days on the House Judiciary Committee, they echo what Trump is saying. They just refuse to recognize the reality.

LEMON: But Max, you got people out there in the public who listen to him and listen to the Republicans and they go, yes, read the transcript. There's nothing there. [23:05:00]

Come on, Max. You cannot -- do they actually believe that? They cannot believe that. No!

BOOT: It's really hard to say, Don. I mean, are they being cynical or they being credulous?

LEMON: Yes.

BOOT: Some are cynical. I think some are being credulous, but it's an astonishing assault on the very idea that we can have verifiable truth when they are saying that what you see with our own eyes in print you don't actually see that.

LEMON: All right. I'm sure Julia and Matt -- you guys feel free to jump in whenever you want. It's not just Max and me. But Julia, listen -- to bring you in, let's talk to -- let's listen to Manu Raju. Manu Raju had an exchange with Republican Congresswoman Debbie Lesko today. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Why is it ever OK for an American president to ask a foreign power to investigate a political rival? Why do you think that's OK?

REP. DEBBIE LESKO (R-AZ): He didn't -- he didn't do that.

RAJU: He did ask -- he did ask Zelensky.

LESKO: He did not do that

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK, but he did. Here's the White House transcript of the call. And by the way, you know, it's not -- this is what there is now (inaudible) said the president, "I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. There's a lot of talk about Biden's son that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into that. It sounds horrible to me."

There's always been rhetoric and spin in politics, but explain how this is really different.

JULIA IOFFFE, CORRESPONDENT GQ: Well, I don't think it's all that new. If you read the 19th century Russian greats, I'm sorry, like Nikolai Gogol, who said that, you know, if a truth -- if a falsehood is repeated enough times and isn't, there's no push back on it, it becomes the truth.

And I think in people's silos, informational silos in these informational plains of existence that don't intersect with one another, that's what happens. They just keep hearing the same thing over and over again and they believe it. It becomes their truth.

And it dove tails very nicely with the kind of politics that people like Newt Gingrich brought to the Capitol in 1994, the win-at-all-cost politics.

You know, you talked in your earlier segment about Mitch McConnell just tossing all even, you know, facades of propriety aside and saying we are, you know, 100 percent in lock step with the White House on this trial.

You know, it's a win-at-all-cost, ends justify the means, and if that means is just lying through our teeth to the point where we believe it and our constituents believe it, why not.

And I think it's reflected in the polls. For the last three years, the president's approval rating has barely moved. The approval of the impeachment and how many people think he should be impeached or removed from office has barely budged.

People have been completely locked in. They believe whatever is being told to them in their informational silo or bubble or whatever you want to call it, and that's it. And they don't want to hear anything else.

LEMON: Listen to this. This is a president also repeating what he wanted in front of reporters. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, what exactly did you hope Zelensky would do about the Bidens after your phone call?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I would think that if they were honest about it that they would start a major investigation into the Bidens. It's a very simple answer. They should investigate the Bidens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. Matt, so, all right. So, how can Congresswoman Lesko say he didn't ask a foreign power to investigate a political rival? I mean, he just asked in front of the cameras on the White House lawn, are we seeing a wholesale rejection of facts here.

And also, Matt, I understand when people say OK, don't insult the voter, but don't you have to have some tough love and tell people like, hey, I know you're wrong.

MATT LEWIS, CNN POLITAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

LEMON: People are lying to you and you're believing crap that's not real.

LEWIS: It's a come to Jesus moment we'd love to have with people. Donald Trump said it on T.V. The White House released a transcript -- that "transcript" -- showing that he did this. And Mick Mulvaney, the chief of staff admitted it on T.V. Get over it.

And still people have the temerity, the audacity to look at us and lie to us. And again, I don't know if they have drunk the Cool Aid as cult members or if they are, you know, spinning and lying.

But it is so weird for a political party and a movement that stood against cultural relativism and post-modernism to now be engaging in this.

[23:10:004]

Of course, it's been aided by technology, cable news, social media, all of those things. But it took Donald Trump to really weaponize this and it, you know, I would love to see the one, you know, we've mentioned some Russian literature from the 19th century.

I'd love to see people who've read George Orwell where they stand on this because to me, I would be willing to bet people who've read "1984," "Animal Farm" would be disproportionately worried about America today and Donald Trump based on what's happening before our eyes.

LEMON: Do you think there will be a moment of reckoning where people will realize, Matt, I don't know if there's an epiphany moment or like, oh my gosh, I've been duped, or no?

LEWIS: I don't know. I will tell you this. I think that it's obviously very problematic when we don't --

LEMON: Because some people -- hold on -- you finish. Some people had that moment when they did their tax returns, but go on.

SMITH: Well, what happens when people -- when we don't just disagree over the call, but we disagree over who actually won the election, the next election. It could get real, right?

LEMON: Yes. Thank you.

SMITH: Scary.

LEMON: Thank you all. Appreciate it.

Will the president's calls with foreign leaders be even worse now that there will be fewer aides listening in? And are there lessons for the U.S. in Boris Johnson's landslide win in the U.K.? These questions and more for Fareed Zakaria. He's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:15:00]

LEMON: The Judiciary Committee voting today to approve two articles of impeachment against Trump, abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. The full House could vote as soon as Wednesday with the Senate trial likely in January. Let's discuss. Fareed Zakaria is here. Hi Fareed, good to see you. Listen, it is all but certain that President Trump --

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST: Pleasure.

LEMON: -- will be impeached by Christmas. How much do you think it bothers him?

ZAKARIA: I think it bothers him a lot, which is why he is consumed with it. His entire -- if you think about the tweets President Trump has issued in the last month, probably 95 percent of the about impeachment. He fights very well under pressure. You know, he's a great counter puncher as people have pointed out.

So, it does allow him to rally his base. He has some political benefit he derives from it, but neck and neck, you've got to believe that he doesn't want to be the third president impeached in American history. That he doesn't see this as a net plus.

Who knows how it works itself out politically over the next year? But, you know, I would think all things being equal. If you would have asked Donald Trump would you rather be impeached or not. I think of course, he'd rather not be impeached even though this does rally the base.

LEMON: Here's what multiple sources are telling CNN, that top Trump aides are now restricting how many officials can listen to his phone calls with foreign leaders after that infamous July call with Zelensky. Transcripts are also going to be shared with a smaller group, Fareed. What does that say to you?

ZAKARIA: Well, it's very interesting, right. What we're doing now is rather than saying we need to try to get President Trump to behave in a more predictable, ethical, one might even say lawful manner, and have President Trump adjust his behavior.

Instead, we are adjusting the process and getting rid of all the safeguards and the constraints and the back ups and the expertise that would normally be surrounding him.

So the structure of American democracy is being reshaped to accommodate President Trump so that if he says -- if he does something bad, there are fewer people who can report on it. There's only loyalists' listening in. It's not the right path, right.

And the right path would be to say let's try to make President Trump understand that he cannot do certain things and that at least he should think through (inaudible).

Instead (inaudible) let's change American democracy so that if President Trump does bad things, A, fewer people will know, B, the people who know will be loyalists, and C, there won't be consequences if he does these things.

LEMON: I said the same thing to Chris at the beginning of the 10:00 show. It's really unbelievable. But let's move on. I want to get to Boris Johnson's landslide win in the U.K before we ran out of time. This is what President Trump said about it today. Watch this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I want to congratulate Boris Johnson on a terrific victory. I think that might be a harbinger of what's to come in our country it was last time. I'm sure people will be thrilled to hear that, but a lot of people will be actually, a very big percentage of people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I think he might be onto something, is he?

ZAKARIA: Absolutely. I think there's a big lesson from the British election. The most important thing to look at is this was not a great victory for the Conservative Party by which I mean, the Conservative share a vote between Theresa May's share and Boris Johnson's notched up from 42 percent to 43.

What really happened is the Labour Party vote went from 40 percent in 2017 to 32 percent. So in other words, it was a collapse of support for the Labour Party rather than a big increase for the Conservative Party. So that's point one.

[23:19:57]

Point two, why did it happen? Because the Labour Party moved really far left and when given a choice between a radical and even Boris Johnson who was not a particularly popular conservative, they went for the conservative.

See, Boris Johnson represented something very simple and clear. Get Brexit done. What did the Labour Party stand for? So, really what happened here is -- it is a harbinger and that what happened to the Labour Party is the traditional labor strongholds.

There are seats that they lost that they have won since 1945, since 1950. They lost that working class vote that went to Boris Johnson because it was simpler and clearer and the people were not scared off. The radicalism of Corbyn scared a lot of people off.

I think that the Democrats have to think about how to present themselves clear message, you know, don't come across as so far left that you lose people.

And you have to, at the end of the day, recognize that if you do not present yourself with the same kind of clarity and energy as Trump, you're going to have a problem because he will come across very simple, very clear.

You know, no 10 and 20-point program. Something very simple that can appeal to people at the level of the heart, the level of the gut as well as the mind.

LEMON: I was watching CNN International and someone said that Jeremy Corbyn was promising things -- he was promising a four-day workweek with five day wages and the people in Britain they weren't buying it. They knew that he couldn't produce that and that he was moving too far left and they wanted a moderate.

And so they knew he wasn't going to live up to that. So, instead of going for that, they went for a conservative who just had a very simple message because they knew that he could do for them what he promised to do. And so I think it's a very big lesson and a very good message --

ZAKARIA: Clarity in politics always right. If you -- yes, exactly. I mean, if you wanted Brexit it was very clear who to vote for, Boris Johnson.

LEMON: Right.

ZAKARIA: If you didn't want it, it wasn't clear. Was it Labour or was it Liberal Democrats. At the end of the day, simplicity works.

LEMON: Yes. Fareed, thank you. Appreciate it. I'll be watching this weekend. Be sure to watch Fareed Zakaria GPS Sunday at 10:00 a.m. and then again at 1:00 p.m. right here on CNN.

Is civility in politics overrated? That's what my next guest says. And you're going to want to hear his argument. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:25:00]

LEMON: The heated rhetoric of the Trump era has a lot of people mourning the end of civility in American politics. My next guest argues civility is overrated. Joining me now to discuss, Adam Serwer along with Mark McKinnon. Good evening.

I'm looking forward to this conversation. I have always thought, hey, where is the civility gone? Adam, you have a chance of winning me over. So, let's have this conversation. You have a piece -- go on before I read about your piece. Go on tell me. You think it's overrated, but tell me why.

ADAM SERWER, SENIOR EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC: Well, I think there's a distinction between a civility that is grown out of like kindness and mutual respect. And a civility that is essentially, you know, power telling those with legitimate grievances to be silent.

And I think that when people use civility today, the second version is often what they mean, and I'll give an example. You know, during the midterms in 2018, the president went around, you know, when Republicans were criticizing Democrats for being a "mob."

And he said we need to end the politics of personal destruction. And by that, I mean the media should stop reporting the things that I do and say. And that's, you know, that kind of civility disingenuous. There is almost no legitimate demand of power that people with that power can make.

That power will be considered civil. The abolitionists were not considered civil and they often weren't. The civil rights movement was not considered civil. The women's suffrage movement was absolutely not considered civil.

And while there is certainly a virtue in being kind and generous to others, when civility is used as an excuse to silence people with legitimate grievances, that's not a kind of civility that's worth upholding.

LEMON: Let me just give a quote, You said, "While non-violence is essential to democracy, civility is optional. And today's preoccupation with politesse both exaggerates the country's division and papers over the fundamental issues that are causing the divisions in the first place. So, in times like these, Americans shouldn't worry so much about being civil, right? Is that what you're saying?

SERWER: I'm saying they should worry more about democracy and less about whether or not we're all getting along, because after all, democracy is a system for managing conflict.

And when you have conflict there is sometimes going to be people being rude. But the important thing is to maintain the idea that everybody regardless of background is allowed to participate and that those rights cannot be curtailed.

LEMON: OK. Let's bring Mark in. Mark, at the same time, you know, many people are sick and tired of this era. They really want to get back to civility. Is that such a bad thing?

MARK MCKINNON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, it's not, Don. I'll agree with your other guest, that there have been much more torturous and uncivil and violent times in our history. And the encouraging thing is that we have seen tougher times and we'll get through this.

The great political historian, John Meechum, said that there never was a once upon a time in America and there will never be happily ever after.

[23:30:00]

So, we have had tougher times. There are tough times ahead but that doesn't mean that we can't be civil. The reality is that there are a lot of things that are happening in our society that are creating a courser dialogue and debate, which could end up in civil disobedience and violence of a nature that we're really not -- that doesn't help further the dialogue.

But I helped start an organization 10 years ago called "No Labels." The effort is to try to bring parties together so that we can at least have a dialogue. That's where it has got to begin.

LEMON: OK. Let me -- I want to read another section from your piece, and this is a quote. It says, "The true cause of American political discord is the lingering resistance of those who have traditionally held power to sharing it with those who until recently have only experienced its serrated edge. And the resistance does linger." So in plain terms, do you mean white privilege doesn't want to let go? Is that what you're saying?

SERWER: I never use the term "white privilege" because I think it's too non-specific. It doesn't explain what you're actually talking about. What I'm referring to there is the fact that, you know, one of the two parties is made up almost entirely of white Christians. If you're not a white Christian, you're more likely to be in the opposite party.

That creates a kind of racial polarization, racial ethnic religious polarization that makes interparty conflict more vicious. But in the end, that conflict, it if it is not resolved in way that respects everybody's right to participate in the polity, if it is not resolved in that way, then any kind of reconciliation, that does not include, that will be empty.

And the reason I say that is because in the past, during moments of -- during past moments where the parties were polarized along racial lines, the solution and the -- that brought about the era of civility that a lot of people are so nostalgic for was essentially the exclusion of black people from the polity and a bipartisan consensus on white supremacy.

I think it is important that however our current issues are resolved, that the compromise that ends the conflict is not one that resembles the one that we saw in 1877 as I described in there.

LEMON: Mark, I want you to weigh in on this because I find it interesting that the President Trump in his campaign use one of the same terms that Nixon did, that silent majority term, you know, phrase. What does that come to mean now in the Trump era? They're not so silent anymore.

MCKINNON: Well, they're not. I think what we're really saying is that in our society, great change doesn't come without great pain. Power doesn't want to give up power, and there's no question that's true.

But also, so much has happened in the last decade or so that changed the nature of our dialogue and the nature of our politics with the advent of the evolution of internet, the talk radio, cable television, Citizens United. You can just go down the line, gerrymandering.

There was a study that the Washington Journal does every couple of years about the overlap of members of Congress where you had more conservative Democrats than liberal Republicans. About 20 years ago, that number was about half of Congress. About 220 something members overlapped.

The last time they did the study, I believe the number was four. There's a lot of other things happening in our society that are creating the course and nature of our politics, which is a problematic in terms of problem solving and moving forward.

LEMON: Gentlemen, thank you. I appreciate it.

SERWER: Thank you for having us.

LEMON: Absolutely. President Trump is courting black voters. Will it work?

[23:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Let's look at the state of the race and the importance of black voters. President Trump's reelection campaign is launching a big effort to reach out to African Americans, but you got to wonder how well that's going to work. Let's discuss. Tara Setmayer and Angela Rye. Hello to both of you.

TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Greetings.

ANGELA RYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hello.

LEMON: Greetings. Tara, you first. Trump likes to boast that he has done so much for the black community, unemployment, jobs, so on and so on. But at the same time, he has insulted African American voters repeatedly. How is this black outreach going to work, do you think?

SETMAYER: Well, I mean, the outreach efforts seem to be somewhat unserious and tacky at times. For those of us watching this, we're like, really, with these things that he does. But it's also -- they see an opportunity here. We have to be honest. Why do you think President Trump continually repeats the lowest unemployment in history -- lowest black unemployment in history over and over and over again?

And also, he signed criminal justice reform into law, which is an important issue in the black community. And he over-performed with black voters last time around much to the (INAUDIBLE) of a lot of us, saying, wait what? He did better than Romney and McCain.

So all you need is a couple percentage points difference in places like Michigan or Pennsylvania or even Florida where he won by less than a percentage point. And there, they have the money. They are trying to make inroads, and it doesn't take much to do that.

So, I think that they're making a play for it because there could potentially be a percentage point or two gain for them, which is astonishing given how much of a racist he is.

LEMON: Angela, listen. Black voters --

RYE: Very close, Tara (ph).

LEMON: -- especially women are really going to be a decisive force in the election. Look at this recent poll.

[23:40:00]

LEMON: This is CNN poll. Only three percent of black women approve of Trump's job performance. Compare that with 15 percent of black men. It's a big margin of error. But still, he's not making very much headway there. Talk to me about that.

RYE: Yeah. First of all, what is going on with the brothers? Come back, you all. What is happening? Come back to the truth. Come back to the knowledge of the truth. What I would say is that black women have always been very clear and decisive, have always led the way and trail blazed what happens in the home about our politics.

I think what is important to note, Tara's point, yes, Donald Trump signed the first step back into law but that was headway that he only gained because of what Barack Obama did while he was in office. Yes, black unemployment is lower. Why? Because of the headway that Barack Obama made while he was in office. Once again, we say, thanks, Obama. We know that some economic indicators lag. That is one of them.

I also think it's important for us to realize that there is -- Tara, you began speaking to this -- there is an opportunity. The opportunity is one that is a tremendous blind spot for the Democrats.

That is this: The more you can continue to go after the lost sheep, and by that I mean white voters who have now decided to pledge their allegiance to Donald Trump, fact be dammed, the more you alienate your loyal, consistent, voting bloc of a base. That is not just black women. That is black people. That is also brown people. It is overwhelmingly black folks.

And so what the Democrats have to decide is that it is better for them to engage voters who have traditionally sided with them on all types of issues and have traditionally given their votes to them. Folks are now starting to question whether or not they're being taken for granted in very real ways and in fact starting to question now the Democratic candidates' agendas and whether or not they're being included.

That is a huge potential vulnerability for Democrats. I am saying, we have been sounding the alarm for this for well over a year. It's time to wake up and pay attention before this first primary vote.

LEMON: Yeah. Under Obama, the black unemployment fell 9.9 points. It has only fallen one point under President Trump.

RYE: Exactly. Thanks, Obama.

LEMON: Yeah. So, Tara --

SETMAYER: Perception is reality in politics.

LEMON: Yeah. Look at this. I only have a few seconds here. If the general election was held today between Biden and Trump, Biden leads here in the black vote, 87 percent to seven percent, according to Quinnipiac just this week. That is a massive gap, Tara. Quickly, please.

SETMAYER: Well, it is, but where it needs to be where the states that matter, like I said, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, where Trump won by less than a percent point. You have to make sure the black vote is not depressed.

And be careful at the Trump administration, that the Trump campaign doesn't do things to try to depress the black vote in some places more so than gain it because people stayed home in 2016 because they didn't like Hillary. That's just as bad as Trump gaining any support. The Democrats have to watch that, too.

LEMON: Thank you both. Have a great weekend. See you soon. Thanks for coming on. A former Breitbart editor says Stephen Miller is a white supremacist. She is sharing Miller's own words that she says back her allegations up. We'll have that for you, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A former Breitbart editor says White House senior adviser Stephen Miller is a white supremacist. She says she knows because she was one, too, and she says his own words and e-mails to her prove it. Sara Sidner has the story.

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A former Breitbart editor is talking about what she sees as a danger in the White House. She says there's a white supremacist in the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATIE MCHUGH, FORMER BREITBART NEWS EDITOR: These are all white nationalists.

SIDNER (voice-over): Former Breitbart news editor Katie McHugh says she is doing her first television interview for one reason. She wants to expose a white supremacist in the White House.

(On camera): You think Stephen Miller is a white nationalist?

MCHUGH: A white supremacist, I would say, because I believe his ideology is one of domination and control over people of color.

SIDNER (voice-over): Stephen Miller is a senior aide to President Donald Trump. He didn't respond to our request for comment. A White House spokesperson has said that Miller is not a racist and is being attacked because he is Jewish. McHugh says that's laughable. She says on his rise to the White House while working for Senator Jeff Sessions --

STEPHEN MILLER, SENIOR ADVISOR FOR POLICY FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Are you ready to send Donald J. Trump to the White House?

SIDNER (voice-over): And later on Trump's campaign, Miller was in constant contact with her, pushing stories that fit an anti- immigration narrative, stories she wrote for Breitbart without question.

(On camera): Were you a white nationalist?

MCHUGH: I think I would call myself that. Whenever you want to call it white nationalist, white supremacist, that's fine.

SIDNER (on camera): That's what you were?

MCHUGH: Yes, but that part is dead.

SIDNER (on camera): Do you think this was solely political to let his star rise because he could manipulate you or do you think he actually is a white supremacist?

MCHUGH: I believe he wanted access to power because he is a white supremacist and want to impose his policies. His e-mails are, you know, you can read his own words.

SIDNER (voice-over): McHugh says these are some of his own words in e-mails to her.

[23:50:00]

SIDNER (voice-over): She saved 900 or so exchanges between Miller and Breitbart staffers from 2015 to 2016. In 2015, not long after a white supremacist slaughtered nine black Americans praying inside their Charleston church, McHugh says Miller called and emailed not with sympathy for the victims, but instead a focus on changing the narrative to outrage over the removal of the confederate statues and retailers removing confederate merchandise.

Have you thought about going to Amazon and finding the commie flag and then doing a story on that? Yes, definitely, she replies. This is the story McHugh wrote.

(On camera): Did he ever once mention that he was sorry that nine African Americans were slaughtered while praying at a church?

MCHUGH: Never. No, it never occurred to him, it seemed.

SIDNER (voice-over): But McHugh says immigration was his favorite subject. In 2015, he also sent McHugh an e-mail. Subject line, for your Islam story. In it, a link to the conspiracy website InfoWars. The headline, Reverend Graham, we are under attack. Stop all immigration of Muslims to the U.S. A few months later --

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States.

SIDNER (voice-over): In another e-mail exchange, Miller suggests coverage of immigration and the pope. You see the pope saying, we must in effect get rid of borders. Someone should point out the parallels to "Camp of the Saints."

MCHUGH: Vile, vile, disgusting racist novel.

SIDNER (voice-over): "The Camp of the Saints" is a book beloved by white supremacists. A Breitbart editor published the content Miller suggested.

MILLER: This election is a referendum.

SIDNER (voice-over): And just before Miller heads off to work for the Trump campaign in 2016, he touts what he saw as the danger of allowing hurricane victims from Mexico to come to the U.S. They will all get TPS. That's temporary protection status. That needs to be the weekend's big story. TPS is everything, he says, and sends McHugh an article on the dangers of TPS from a prominent white nationalist website.

(On camera): Did he want you to parrot a white nationalist website?

MCHUGH: Yes, he did. It was understood that Miller had editorial control over the political section of Breitbart news.

SIDNER (voice-over): Well after Miller joined Trump's inner circle, the U.S. ended TPS status for several countries. McHugh is ashamed of her role in all of this. She was fired by Breitbart for an Islamophobic tweet among other things, the website said, including for being a liar.

(On camera): In 2015, you said, another crusade would do a lot of good. Let's turn Mecca into a strip mall. Another tweet, the only way to strike a balance between vigilance, discrimination and terror is to end Muslim migration.

MCHUGH: That's a quote from Miller. That's a paraphrase of a conversation that we had.

SIDNER (on camera): This was the tweet that ended up you getting fired over. There would be no deadly terror attacks in the U.K. if Muslims did not live there. Did you believe all these hateful, racist, Islamophobic things that you were putting out there on your Twitter feed?

MCHUGH: I did.

SIDNER (on camera): Why should people believe you're sincere?

MCHUGH: Because I believe in publicly confessing your sins, and I also believe that, you know, working very hard to expose these networks I was a part of and show how dangerous they are, how evil they are, and how many people they hurt.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER: She says Stephen Miller should do the same and resign. But so far, there is no indication that Miller is going to resign, and the White House, though they did not comment on this specific story, has supported him. Don?

LEMON: Sara Sidner, thank you. We'll be right back.

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[23:55:00]

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LEMON: In this season of giving, we want to show you how you can help our 2019 top 10 CNN heroes continue their important work and have your donations matched dollar for dollar. Here's Anderson Cooper.

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