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Don Lemon Tonight
House Impeaches President Trump. Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-WA) is Interviewed About Impeachment of President Trump by the House and Articles of Impeachment; Speaker Pelosi Shows Her Power to President Trump; President Trump is Upset that He's Being Impeached. Aired 11- 12p ET
Aired December 18, 2019 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening from Washington.
Well not only has the president been impeached. The speaker of the House has also exercised her power in such -- in such a way it could change everything about what comes next. Or as our presidential historian Tim Naftali put it earlier tonight, wow. Nancy Pelosi earned that wow just moments after ushering Donald John Trump into the history books.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), UNITED STATES SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: On this vote, the yays are 230. The nays are 197. Present is one. Article one is adopted. On this vote, the yays are 229. The nays are 198. Present is one. Article two is adopted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And with that, Donald Trump became along with Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, only the third president ever to face trial and possible removal from office in the Senate.
Members almost entirely along party lines, adopting two articles of impeachment. One that he abused the power of his office by allegedly seeking or extorting Ukraine's help to get reelected. And two, obstructing the congressional inquiry into it. Obstruction of Congress.
But it was after her gavel came down that Speaker Pelosi said something that potentially turned everything upside down.
CNN's Phil Mattingly joins us now with the latest on that. So, the statement by Speaker Pelosi, just explain what happened.
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So, Anderson, there a lot of open questions about what the trial process would look like in the United States Senate. We didn't expect to have answers to really until early next year. But one of them we didn't expect to have any questions about at all
was whether or not the Senate would actually get the articles of impeachment from the House. Well, then the speaker said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PELOSI: We have legislation approved by the rules committee that will enable us to decide how we will send over the articles of impeachment. We cannot name managers until we see what the process is on the Senate side, and I would hope that will be soon, as we did with their legislation, our resolution 660, to describe what that process would be.
So far, we haven't seen anything that looks fair to us. So, hopefully it will be fair and when we see what that is, we'll send our managers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY; Now, Anderson, let me explain to the best of my, to the extent that I can, what's actually going on here.
First and foremost, the speaker has every right to do what she's doing right now. To essentially say she's going to hold to articles of impeachment until she decides to send them over. Until they appoint managers to actually bring those articles of impeachment over to the Senate, nothing can be transmitted. So that's very much in play right now.
But there are a couple other issues here that are really important to focus on. First the broader context of things. Democrats have been outraged over the course of the last week of the comments of Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. The idea that he says he's not an impartial juror. The idea that he's working with the White House counsel's office hand in glove.
And they want to underscore the fact that they don't believe what McConnell has put on the table up to this point will lead to a fair trial.
Look, Anderson, Democrats, they know that the United States Senate is not on track to remove President Trump from office based on these articles of impeachment. They will likely acquit him. But they at least want to have the discussion about whether or not the trial is going to be fair.
And by withholding these articles of impeachment the speaker believes a, she has some leverage for future negotiations into how that Senate trial will work and b, Democrats can now hammer home the point that they don't believe McConnell will lead a fair process. At least for the next couple of days or perhaps even longer.
COOPER: And what are Republicans saying about this? I mean do they think that the speaker actually has much leverage?
MATTINGLY: Yes. First and foremost, they were stunned. No Republican that I've been talking to over in the Senate side had any idea this was about to happen. There have been some rumors that this might be something that could come to the forefront but nobody really believed it.
But the second idea is one that I think most Republicans I'm talking to are kind of chuckling about. The idea that McConnell would give up any leverage based on what's happening right now.
In fact, Anderson, I have one Republican senator text me shortly after the speaker's press conference, quote, "if the speaker thinks magic -- this magically gives Democrats leverage in the Senate, she hasn't been paying close attention to how McConnell operates the last few decades."
Look, there is no doubt in anybody's mind McConnell isn't going to move off his current position that he doesn't believe witnesses should be coming forward. That he doesn't believe that the witnesses that Chuck Schumer, the Democratic leader proposed earlier this week for former or current administration officials should come and testify, at least not at the early stage of the trial process.
However, I think everybody is kind of wondering what's actually going to happen next given how we ended up tonight.
COOPER: Phil Mattingly, thanks very much. It is fascinating.
Presidential historian Tim Naftali joins us now along with our political and legal team, Carrie Cordero, David Gergen, Kirsten Powers, Mike Shields, and Paul Begala.
[23:05:01]
Tim, let's start off with you. I mean, it is historic what happened today and then it's fascinating what Speaker Pelosi announced.
TIMOTHY NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, you know, we've had a few weeks to process all of this. Because the fact that there was likely going to be an impeachment is not a surprise. It's a very sober moment.
But one of the elements of this story that at least I wasn't thinking closely about was that this is the first time in our history that we've had an impeachment when the two Houses of Congress are not controlled by the same party.
And that's what makes what happened tonight so interesting. Speaker Pelosi has decided to held the articles of impeachment. Well that was never an issue before because before the same party controlled both Houses. So, it was just, it was a procedural matter. It's now a political matter.
And this is the first time in our history that one of the Houses has decided to test whether it has any leverage. And I don't know if there really is leverage because frankly, as far as I'm concerned, Mitch McConnell has every reason to play chicken, perhaps Speaker Pelosi believes that President Trump is so eager for a trial that that is some leverage that she can somehow take advantage of. I don't know. This is about to be played out. We are witnessing something that has
never happened before in our history. So today we saw something that was rare. The impeachment of a president. It happened only three times in our history. Forty-four individuals have been present. Only three of them have been impeached. Tonight, we saw something that was absolutely unprecedented.
COOPER: David Gergen, from a political standpoint, what did you make of today? And historic as well.
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, wow is right. I think -- I think that I don't think any of us saw this coming. It's important to understand that in the last days, there are a number of people, that had been McConnell, who have been making the argument that they don't need to be impartial in a trial.
They've already made up their minds. Lindsey Graham represents that as well as McConnell and others. Under Senate rules, you're supposed to be impartial. You're supposed to take an oath of impartiality before you do it. So, they feel, you know, the Democrats feel, you're already in violation.
And along comes Larry Tribe of Harvard, a constitutional law scholar who writes an article that has gotten a lot of private attention in Washington, suggesting that in fact you can do something like this when it appears the trial is going to be partial. And this gives you leverage to go and negotiate.
Now, I think it's tough. Nancy Pelosi has had a remarkable record so far this year. In fact, the last two years I think working with Donald Trump. And she's outsmarted them on many occasions I think and is well regarded within Democratic circles.
But for weeks, the Democrats have been arguing, let's get this over with. Let's go, let's go, let's go. Now they're going to hold it up for some indefinite period of time. It does seem there is a lot of pressure. Wait a minute, let's go back to where we started.
COOPER: Carrie, do you think it's possible the Democrats would just decide not to forward it at all to the Senate? So essentially, I mean, history has been written today. The president has been impeached. Regardless of what the Senate then later on decides to do.
CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's right. I mean, I think that Speaker Pelosi has the option to withhold it. I do think that's an option. This is only the third time in history that a president has been impeached and there isn't actually a set way that this has to proceed.
So, I think she has some flexibility. Both she and McConnell are hard ball politicians. And so, I think we're going to see sort of a flash of titans in terms of the politics of this play out.
But as far as today, I really think that today overall was a win for the Constitution. Because what we saw is that in terms of the process that the founding fathers laid out, they laid out a way to deal with a president who abuses the power of his office.
And whether or not this goes to the Senate, or whether or not the Senate, it seems, even if it did, it would be unlikely that the Senate would actually remove him, it is now in the history books that Donald Trump was impeached. That the Congress, the House of Representatives, had enough votes to say that his actions were an abuse of his office.
And this is a process that has been since the founding of the country. And we really just saw it actually play out today. And I think it is worth pausing and acknowledging how remarkable that is for our democracy.
COOPER: Kirsten?
KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. I mean I couldn't agree more. I think that in terms of what Pelosi is going to do, I don't know enough about the House procedures and the Republican procedures and how it works. But it just strikes me that if McConnell wanted to, he could probably say fine, leave him there. We won't do a trial and we'll just pass a resolution. And we'll say that he's innocent, right?
[23:09:56]
So it's -- what Donald Trump wants, is he wants to be able to say, I was acquitted. I was acquitted by the Senate. And so, McConnell probably can find another way to do that. And Democrats have wanted to have a trial. So, my expectation is that she'll probably end up sending them over.
COOPER: Paul Begala, you, for one, want impeachment?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I have. And there's only been two in history and I've been through one of them and in both of the two we've had, there were witnesses. We've never had a trial of a president without witnesses.
So, Senator Schumer made the first move here. So, he said we just want four. There were four in the Clinton case. Four. And they are pretty important witnesses. Mick Mulvaney, the acting chief of staff, John Bolton, the former national security adviser, Robert Blair who was an adviser to Mulvaney in the chief of staff's office, and Michael Duffy who was running the budget office.
These are people who would know firsthand. Did the president illegally or improperly stop this aid for political reasons? How far can McConnell go to keep them from testifying? I know Mr. Trump has gone all the way to the wall.
McConnell says I'm here for the president. I'm going to defend the president and I'm sure he will. I'll bet you his higher priority is to defend his vulnerable Republican senators up for re-election. Senator Collins in Maine. Senator Gardner in Colorado. Senator Tillis in North Carolina. Senator McSally in Arizona. There are four at the top of my head where the Democrats are gunning for.
And voters are going to come to them and say, wait a minute, senator. Don't you think they ought at least to have a couple of witnesses who know firsthand whether the president committed bribery? I think that's a pretty strong hand. I mean, Pelosi knows power. Mitch does too. This will be a great clash. She knows what she's doing here.
COOPER: Mike Shields?
MIKE SHIELDS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it is a mistake to take on Mitch McConnell on a procedural thing. And I think his team is sort of laughing tonight that this idea that this would happen. I think he'll probably just confirm like 20 judges a week while this is waiting and stare her back. And that's what Mitch does.
I think that in terms of an impartial trial, Nancy Pelosi has set something up now. Where if she sends it over, she is basically saying I think it's fair. I'm not going to send it unless it's fair. Well, if she does, then I guess it must be fair or she would have sent it.
So, she just drew a line in the sand that she may not want to cross herself. I don't think she's going to get through that. And the last thing is, I mentioned this last night. Chuck Schumer has said I'm impartial.
No one in the country believes that any of the Democrats are impartial and this is what is wrong with politics and wrong with Washington, D.C. and why this whole thing is a joke because this is now extremely, it's a solemn day.
COOPER: Yes.
SHIELDS: The Constitution won. And we're right back into political games. We're into talking points and messaging about witnesses that weren't even a part of the House trial in the first place.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Because the president backed them.
SHIELDS: And so now it's back -- and so now it's back into politics. That's exactly where actually the Trump people want it to be.
GERGEN: So, let me ask you two guys about the politics to this. What if Mitch McConnell comes back and says OK, you've got a week. If you don't send it here within a week, we're done. We're going to move one. We've got other things to do for the country. Is that good politics for either one? Is it in fact better politics for --
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: So, for the Democrats, Trump has the permanent stain of being impeached and the Democrats have maximum leverage in court because there is an ongoing impeachment. And the court at some point are going to have to rule. They can now press this as many Republicans have been saying, why don't they go to the courts?
Senator Santorum is on the set tonight saying that, go to the courts. It's not a bad point. Now she can go to the courts without delaying impeachment. It's the best of both worlds for her.
COOPER: We got to take a quick break. Coming up next, the president's reaction. His attack on a grieving widow and also her dead husband. The longest serving member of Congress.
Also, the lawmakers who voted to impeach -- one of the lawmakers who voted to impeach joins us to talk about her decision in tonight's breaking news about what comes next.
[23:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: While the House is voting to impeach President Trump, the president was at a rally in Michigan. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: With today's illegal unconstitutional and partisan impeachment --
(CROWD BOOING)
TRUMP: -- the do-nothing Democrats, and they are do-nothing, all they want to do is focus on this. What they could be doing are declaring their de-patriot and disdain for the American voter.
This lawless partisan impeachment is a political suicide march for the Democrat Party. But they've been trying to impeach me from day one. They've been trying to impeach me from before I ran.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: He didn't stop there. He also took time to attack a grieving widow with an attack on her late husband, the longest serving congressman in the history of the House.
And as Boris Sanchez is in Battle Creek, Michigan where the rally was joins us now with that. So, you were there. Talk about what more about what the president said tonight.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson. More than two hours, this is the longest campaign rally speech of President Trump's presidency. Often rambling, often scathing in his criticism of Democrats.
It was interesting when he first came out. He started by saying, it doesn't feel like we are being impeached. The president reveling in the adoration of his supporters. I should point out the president tried to counter program here.
He talked about trade deals with China, he talked about the strength of the economy. But it didn't take long for him to focus his ire on Democrats. The president telling his supporters that they should vote Nancy Pelosi out of office. Also making a crude remark about Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer
and sort of mimicking this crude interaction about Bill and Hillary Clinton. But perhaps the most appalling statement made by President Trump tonight was about Congresswoman Debbie Dingell.
He sort of mock the conversation that he had following the death of her husband, former Congressman John Dingell. He is taking her vote on impeachment very personally. Listen to what she said to what President Trump is saying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They have this Dingell. Dingell. You know Dingell from Michigan?
(CROWD BOOING)
TRUMP: You know Dingell?? Did you ever hear of her in Michigan? Debbie Dingell. That's a real beauty. So, she calls me up like eight months ago. Her husband was ill a long time. But I didn't give him the b treatment, I didn't give him the c or the d. I could have. Nobody would ask, you know.
[23:20:05]
I gave the a-plus treatment. Take down the flags. Why are you taking them down? For ex-Congressman Dingell. OK. Do this, do that. Do that. Rotunda, everything. I gave him everything. That's OK. I don't want anything. I don't need anything for anything.
She calls me up. It's the nicest thing that's ever happen. Thank you so much. John would be so thrilled. He's looking down. He would be so thrilled. Thank you so much, sir. I said, that's OK. Don't worry about it. Maybe he's looking up. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: And you can hear there, Anderson, there were some audible groans in the crowd. They didn't really receive that statement very well.
The president also saying that Democrats should apologize for what they've done to his family. Again, he's taking impeachment very personally and making clear that even though he says, he doesn't feel like he's being impeached, the two hours of rage tonight really shows how he feels, Anderson.
COOPER: Yes, Boris Sanchez. Boris, thanks very much.
Congresswoman Dingell has responded, tweeting, quote, "Mr. President, let's set politics aside. My husband earned all his accolades after a lifetime of service. I'm preparing the first holiday season without the man I love. You brought me down in a way you can never imagine and your hurtful words just made my healing much harder."
Back now with the team. I'm not sure really what to say about that. POWERS: It's just repulsive. I'm sorry. I mean, what he just did is
absolutely completely repulsive. And even the Trump supporters seemed to think that it crossed a line for him to attack her that way. A grieving widow. And the idea that he just did what you do, you know, you have the longest serving --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: He gave her the a-plus treatment.
POWERS: Yes.
COOPER: He gave her the a-plus treatment.
POWERS: He could give her a d.
COOPER: You know what I mean?
POWERS: Yes. It's like why would you do that? Why would you give them the d or the c? That doesn't make any sense. This is what you do when you honor people who serve --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Right. We should point out he was the longest --
POWERS: Yes.
COOPER: -- he's the longest serving congressman in history. His father was congressman before him for 22 years, I think. I think he was in for 60?
POWERS: Yes.
BEGALA: Fifty-nine years.
COOPER: Fifty-nine years.
BEGALA: He served in World War II before that.
COOPER: Yes.
BEGALA: By the way, Mr. President, you don't control who lies in state in the rotunda. The speaker does. That's not even his call. John Dingell just in case our viewers don't know. Not only was at the longest serving in 10 years to be admired. He was crucial to passing the Civil Rights Act, to creating Medicare, to passing the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, the Affordable Care Act, Obamacare.
So much of what we take almost for granted in modern life. John Dingell was central to. He was a giant of the House and was widely admired on both sides.
In fact, when I think it was Mr. Boehner was sworn in as speaker, he asked Dingell to swear him in. John Boehner, a Republican, asked Mr. Dingell to swear him in. That's how revered John Dingell was. And Donald Trump, a couple of bone spurs not worthy to carry that man's boots.
NAFTALI: Well, it's a reminder that today he was impeached for his conduct as a president. What that showed was his character as a man. And on that he could have been impeached a long time ago.
GERGEN: Yes. It was notable today that nobody defended the president's character on the Republican side. They went after process. They went elsewhere.
COOPER: No one said there's no way he could have done that.
GERGEN: Yes. They didn't, yes, exactly. But Paul is right. That John Dingell was one of the last giants of the Congress. And he was revered by many, many people and Debbie Dingell came after him, and holding that seat and she's widely admired widely -- she had a lot of friends in Congress.
And I think they will find his actions what they had to say to be disgusting. It's not the first time we've seen that. But what it also tells us, that in contrast to the last two presidents who have gone through impeachment. That's Nixon and Clinton in modern times, both of them actually came out contrite when it was over.
In both cases, it resolves the issues. They went on with their, you know, Nixon resigned and Clinton went, you know, contrition. Went back to work. But we resolve the issues.
This president is so embittered that he is going to come out and spend the rest of his time in office getting even. And that's what troubles us here. As you look ahead what kind of presidency is this going to be?
The president, you know, when Nixon was good enough to leave. He had to leave. But Clinton went ahead and worked for the good of the country. What you want to do is have a president committed to the good of the country. Not for carrying out vendettas against people like Debbie Dingell because she voted the way she voted.
COOPER: Yes. Mike, I mean, is it defensible?
SHIELDS: No, it's not. Her words are powerful this evening. And look, the best thing I can say is that the president is an entertainer. He sees himself as that. And if you get on the stage when you're mad and talk for two hours, sometimes you are going to say things you regret. And so --
(CROSSTALK)
[23:25:09]
COOPER: Do you think he actually regrets it? I don't think he regrets it.
SHIELDS: He may not say -- he may not say that he does, but you know.
COOPER: Do you think he cares about a grieving widow? He doesn't talk to his own wife. Why would he care about a woman who actually loves her husband?
SHIELDS: I think anyone who said that in public forum would regret it especially the criticism they get. Look, I can't, I'm not defending it. I'm not defending it at all. No defense.
CORDERO: The counter programming is effective though. I mean, he had his rally and then he does his stick and then we're talking about it instead of the fact that he was impeached today for abuse of power.
COOPER: Right.
CORDERO: And abusing his office. This is who he is. We know this is who is. This is who he was in the campaign. This is who he's been as president. But it's not what he's going to be. You're not. It's not what he is going to be impeached for and I think there is potentially historical precedent for a president's character and conduct, that this isn't the impeachable behavior.
And the Democrats considered a whole host of facts throughout his term in office of things that he potentially could have been impeachable for. Whether it was the Mueller report --
(CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: There is the --
CORDERO: Let me just finish.
SHIELDS: Yes.
CORDERO: Whether it was the Mueller report issues, whether it was the obstruction that was part of that, whether it's his constant and incessant lying to the American people. And none of that is impeachable. What was impeachable was his abusing the office and involving national security in foreign policy in defense issues. And that is why the Democrats -- and one independent had act today.
SHIELDS: The tie-in, we talked about this a little bit before. I was working for Newt Gingrich when we impeached President Clinton. And I see so many parallels between those two things. One of the parallels was Republicans hated Bill Clinton. It was personal. They had a vitriol for him.
And so, every time we tried to stick to there were criminal referrals in the Starr report. Let's talk about the actual facts. It would always drift over into how much we just viscerally disliked him and that helped him.
Because the public saw that and they said you're just trying to get him. And what President Trump doe sis triggers people on the left with things like this to the point where they get so angry that they move off of what you just talked about and all the legal things it could be impeachment and their vitriol and hatred for him comes out and becomes very personal. He responds personally back. But it becomes very personal. It's the same mistake we made when we --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: It's got to be weird though for all these Republicans. Maybe it's not at this point. But it's got to be interesting for all these Republicans who spent today defending the president, though not on his character but on process. Just standing up for the president.
To then as soon as it's done, hear him, you know, attack a widow and her dead husband. That's the guy they're defending. That is the guy who they are now the party of Donald Trump. It is his party. And that is who they are planting their flag on and going to the barricades for.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's who they're comparing to Jesus Christ. More than once today in the debate, he compared our president to our savior --
(CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: I'm a Republican.
BEGALA: Why they compare him to Jesus?
SHIELDS: No, not that. Yes, that's what --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: No, I'm not saying I don't understand why they do it.
BEGALA: It happened twice.
COOPER: I just think it's got to hurt, I mean, if they have an ounce of like decency. It's got to at least hurt that you know what, I just spent all this political capital and defending this person and --
(CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: I'm sure --
COOPER: -- he is now, this is who he is.
SHIELDS: I'm sure it hurt Democrats when they found out their hero --
COOPER: Absolutely.
SHIELDS: -- did the things that he did as well.
COOPER: Yes.
SHIELDS: Politicians let us down all the time.
COOPER: Right.
SHIELDS: But the lowest unemployment since 1969. The lowest pay gap between blacks and whites in the country in recorded history. You know, the judges that he's confirmed. He's taking on China. Manufacturing jobs are up.
(CROSSTALK)
POWERS: Just because --
SHIELDS: That's why Republicans are supporting the president.
POWERS: Just because you have things that you like that our president does doesn't justify this kind of behavior.
COOPER: If somebody is a pig, you don't overlook they're a pig just because they smell good on a particular day.
(CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: But do you impeach him because you don't like him?
COOPER: No, I'm just saying --
SHIELDS: Impeachment this entire trial has gone down.
POWERS: He wasn't impeached --
SHIELDS: And the president's approval on the economy has gone up.
POWERS: He wasn't impeached because people didn't like him. That's just not --
(CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: That's not clear.
POWERS: That's not true.
GERGEN: Let me ask you this one.
POWERS: And also, we know that there were many times the Democrats voted against impeaching him.
GERGEN: Yes.
COOPER: All right. I got to get a break in. Michigan Republican Congressman Fred Upton has just weighed in. Tweeting, quote, "I've always looked up to John Dingell, my good friend and a great Michigan legend. There is no need to dis him in a crass political way. Most unfortune and an apology is due."
Stick around. Still a lot to discuss. A member of the judiciary committee joins us next. Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal on her thoughts about this historic day, as well as Speaker Pelosi's intentions for those articles of impeachment. More ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:30:00] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: In the lead up to the president's impeachment tonight as Republican defenders strike (ph) a familiar, if not always correct territory, that is except from several members, decided to compare the impeachment to events like Pearl Harbor and the trial of Jesus Christ.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE KELLY (R-PA): On December 7th, 1941, a horrific act happened in the United States. Today, December 18th, 2019, is another date that will live in infamy.
REP. KEVIN BRADY (R-TX): They'll be forever remembered as the Senator Joe McCarthy's of our time.
REP. BARRY LOUDERMILK (R-GA): Pontius Pilate afforded more rights to Jesus than the Democrats have afforded this president.
REP. FRED KELLER (R-PA): Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Joining me now for a take on one of the most remarkable day in U.S. history, Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, who sits on the Judiciary Committee.
[23:35:03]
COOPER: Having some perspective on it, now just a few hours, I guess, how do you feel about what happened today?
REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): It was surreal. It was painful to sit there and watch the Republicans, some of whom I know quite well, mock, laugh, make comments that were completely ridiculous, you know, some of the comparisons that they made that you just showed.
And I think it was a great affront from their side, a great affront to what the framers had in mind. From our side, I was so proud of our Democratic Party. I was proud of the people that are in tough districts who really had to think about how they were going to deal with this whole situation.
But at the end of the day, they swore that oath to the Constitution and they felt that they had what they needed to uphold that oath.
COOPER: It was remarkable. One of the things that David pointed out earlier tonight was that you did not hear congressmen or women making the full-throated defense of the president's character, saying --
JAYAPAL: No.
COOPER: -- that he would never -- it's conceivable that he would do something like that.
JAYAPAL: No. And that was true throughout. I mean, I sat through 18 hours on the Judiciary Committee for the impeachment markup, the whole time that we were looking at the Mueller report, and you never saw the Republicans actually provide a fact defense ever.
They talked about how the process was bad. And then every once in a while, they would though out a few things that were not really facts. But they stayed away from kind of defending the president, defending any of the, you know, the arguments that we were making. They really didn't have the ability to do that.
COOPER: The -- Nancy Pelosi, her decision at this point not moving the articles of impeachment or not sending them over to the Senate, not naming managers, how do you -- what is the play there?
JAYAPAL: Well, you know, we have the right to do that. We don't have to transmit them right away. I think her belief, many of us feel this way, that the Senate has refused to put forward fair rules for a fair trial. Seventy-one percent of the American public, according to a recent poll I just saw, want those witnesses to come and testify.
They want a fair trial. They believe that we need to be able to call these witnesses and they need to be able to hear from them. So what Pelosi is saying is, don't ask me to appoint impeachment managers and send this over when you have not given us any guarantee of what this trial is actually going to look like.
COOPER: So, where does this go? I mean, if Mitch McConnell just decides I am not going to, you know, bow to your demands, would you support the House not sending the articles of impeachment over to the Senate at all?
JAYAPAL: No. I think, you know, I don't think we're there yet. I think it's hard to imagine that we wouldn't send them over, send the articles of impeachment over unless it was such a sham from the very beginning. I got to tell you, you know, I was in the Judiciary Committee room when Mitch McConnell announced that he was coordinating everything with the White House.
The idea that the foreman of jury, the same person who sets the rules for the trial, by the way, is coordinating with the defendant is absolutely outrageous. And I think that this is where sometimes I think, I see, I have seen the limits of our Constitution in the imagination of the founders because I don't think they ever anticipated that there would be a party who would refuse to put country over their own party.
COOPER: The argument of the Democrats though has been, look, we need to -- we cannot wait for court rulings, we want to do this fast, we want to move on and talk about table top issues and all the other things that voters care about.
If that was the motivation on the timeline so far, isn't holding up, sending the articles -- sending the impeachment over for trial in the Senate, isn't that running counter to what Democrats have been saying --
JAYAPAL: Not really because it's not -- we're not talking about holding it up for months and months. We have to get the rules of the trial figured out quickly. Hopefully that happens immediately. Hopefully these get transmitted quickly and we get the trial started with real witnesses.
And when those senators take that oath of impartiality, I hope they're remembering exactly what that means to lie on an oath because that is really, really important. And our democracy depends on this.
COOPER: Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, thank you very much.
JAYAPAL: Thank you.
COOPER: I appreciate it. Just ahead, more on whether Speaker Pelosi can force Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell's hand on witnesses. We'll be right back.
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[23:40:00]
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COOPER: More now on House Speaker Pelosi still not sending the articles of impeachment to the Senate and the Democrats' call for witnesses in the Senate trial. Republican Leader Mitch McConnell, who is expected to speak on the matter tomorrow morning at 9:00, said Tuesday, it just not going to happen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): The Senate is meant to act as judge and jury, to hear trial, not to rerun the entire fact-finding investigation because angry partisans rushed sloppily through it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And back now with our team. Mike, you've been on the Hill a long time. What do you expect McConnell's move is here?
MIKE SHIELDS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER RNC CHIEF OF STAFF: I mean, does that sound like someone who is intimidated by what's going on? I saw someone on his team say Pelosi pulled the pin out of a grenade and then decided to hold on to it rather than throwing it over the wall.
[23:45:03]
SHIELDS: She has got this in her lap now, when she could have passed it off to Chuck Schumer -- I guess they've planned this. What Paul is saying is, you know, her left wing may be doing this to her because they want to pick this fight. The left wing wants to fight. They -- of the Democratic Party. They think that they can win a fight.
So let's talk about witnesses. Let's keep this going. The moderates and the people that have to run in the Trump's seat are saying can we just get this over with? By the way, it is very similar to 1998. The right wing of the Republican Party was like we're going to get Bill Clinton no matter what.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Is this wise move from Pelosi?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, it is. It is not a grenade. She's like McGyver. If she has a paper clip and a rubber band and chewing gum, she's going to make a bomb and toss it over.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: She does know what she's doing. I think --
COOPER: By the way, our viewers are watching Air Force One arriving back in Washington.
BEGALA: God bless. We have as Democrats actually a political gain if the trial is seen to be a sham, right? There will be a reaction to that. If they do what I think Mitch seems to be moving toward -- Senator McConnell, excuse me, seems to be moving towards, just like -- we're just going to have a quick vote and clear the guy.
I think people are going to say, wait a minute, that's not a trial. He has that right. Constitution puts the word sole in the document, I think, only twice. Once the House has the sole power to impeach, the Senate has the sole power to try to (INAUDIBLE) anyway, Senator McConnell could get 51 --
SHIELDS: Voters in swing areas are saying, please start focusing on the things that matter to us and get done dealing with this partisan --
COOPER: David?
(CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: -- so a long trial is not good for Democrats.
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think one has to go back to one fundamental and that is that this president did not send a single document and block the key witness from coming to testify. So the country --
COOPER: Which is unprecedented.
GERGEN: It is unprecedented. It's not what Nixon did. It's not what Clinton did. And I think the country has a right to hear from Bolton and from Mulvaney and Pompeo and so forth. So, there's that foundation. But I do think that the politics of this got to be very, very difficult, very tricky. It is like what happened in Britain. Get Brexit done.
COOPER: Right.
GERGEN: The same thing pertains here. COOPER: We got to take a quick break. We'll have more from our group and more in the history making day here in Washington. We'll be right back.
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[23:50:00]
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COOPER: We are looking at live pictures of President Trump coming off Air Force One, arriving here in Joint Base Andrews, returning to the White House. It's been a day of consequence and history, of course, here in Washington. Back now with our team. Carrie, I know you wanted to say something before.
CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Sure. We were talking before the break about Speaker Pelosi potentially holding up the articles of impeachment in some sort of negotiation with McConnell. And what I'm wondering about is this argument that it's over witnesses because I'm perplexed why they would actually pick a fight over witnesses.
If we think about two of who might be the major witnesses, it might be Mick Mulvaney, it might be John Bolton, the former National Security adviser --
GERGEN: Hunter Biden.
CORDERO: I have low confidence that even if Mick Mulvaney or John Bolton were hauled into the Senate and put in a chair, that they would really answer questions. I think even if they get there, there's a scenario where they assert executive privilege or they assert other privileges and nothing actually comes of it. So, I am a little bit curious why the speaker thinks this is the fight to pick.
COOPER: Tim?
TIMOTHY NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN, FORMER DIRECTOR OF NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY: I think that I'm just trying to wrap my head around the circumstances under which Mitch McConnell would cave, if it's eyeball-to-eyeball and he would blink. We saw him in the case of Merrick Garland when he decided to go eyeball-to-eyeball with the Constitution and precedent, and he didn't blink. He didn't confirm President Obama's choice for the court.
I just don't see what incentive he has to cave at this point, which means that the speaker might have to cave and it wouldn't look very good for her. Perhaps there is the sense on her part that the president is so keen to have a show trial because he loves TV that that might be reason for Mitch McConnell to come back with an offer which then she can embrace and say is a fair set of procedures.
I don't know. But it's a surprise to me that she would do this tonight when the story today is the historic impeachment, only the third time in our history our president has been impeached. That is today's story and this seems to be stepping on the line a bit.
BEGALA: Well, it's putting the ball back in the Senate's court, which is where this thing ultimately is going to be resolved, right? And people have a sense of what a trial is. And a trial without witnesses just doesn't seem like a trial. This has been polled. We were talking about this during the break.
The ABC/Washington Post poll, 71 percent of Americans, divided 50-50 and everything, 71 percent said there ought to be witnesses, 64 percent of Republicans do. And, again, I've been through this, so has Mike. Bill Clinton personally testified. Does anybody think Donald Trump is going to testify?
His chief of staff testified. His senior aide testified. His secret service agent testified, mostly in the star part of the process. But then four witnesses testified in the Senate. Clinton gave blood. You think Trump's going to give blood? The level of obstruction by this guy is really remarkable.
COOPER: We got to take a break.
[23:55:00]
COOPER: I want to thank everybody tonight. We're going to be right back.
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COOPER: It's been quite a day. It's going to be quite a night. The news continues. I want to turn it over to Chris for "Cuomo Prime Time." Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Coop. I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to special midnight edition of "Prime Time."
END
