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Don Lemon Tonight

Lindsey Graham On Nancy Pelosi Holding Articles: "Senate Republicans Should Take Matters Into Our Own Hands"; DOJ Inspector General Report Debunks Representative McCarthy's False Claim That The FBI "Broke Into" Trump's Campaign; Rudy Giuliani On SDNY: "If They Think I Committed A Crime They're Out Of Their Minds"; Donald Trump's Impeachment Is About His Conduct Not His Supporters; Eddie Murphy Made Jokes At Bill Cosby's Expense During His Appearance On "Saturday Night Live". Aired 10-11p ET

Aired December 23, 2019 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: --words okay. Not to mention the fact that windmills are arguably among the cleanest energy sources. Trump is making windmills into monsters. The question is why, actually have two questions. Thanks for watching tonight CNN Tonight with me, upgrade Laura Coates starts right now. I'll ask you the question because you are the better mind.

One, how do we know how many birds catch killed. I've seen that quoted all over the place from all these official sources. Who counts that? And, two, if Trump is Don Quixote who is Sancho Panza the sidekick?

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST, UPGRADE: If a tree falls in a forest, Chris, and no one's there to hear it - I can't answer these questions.

CUOMO: I got like six answers.

COATES: You probably do. Watching that I almost thought to myself is this continuation of Eddie Murphy on "SNL"? Is there going to be a cameo of him about the windmill conversation because I cannot imagine the fact that somebody has made the enemy with the wind? Does that just sound shocking to you, Chris?

CUOMO: He was missing the beautiful, contagious reaction shot of Murphy as Mr. Robinson. Trump needs to use this when he says it. I've studied the wind. I know more about it than anyone.

COATES: I'll be here all week, trying the fish. For me tipped the way tell these people, for me I hear it and I think to myself of all the causes and all the things to go against, of all of the bones to pick in this world, particularly when there's a little thing right now he's addressing called the impeachment that you would think he'd want to talk about this but the windmill and the bird graveyard essentially is where he lands.

I got to shake my head and wonder. I'm fascinated by his mind. I'm fascinated as to the way in which it travels, and I just don't know how long we can be on this ride.

CUOMO: He's studied it more than anyone, but he doesn't understand the wind. This is what he said about how windmills work? But you know what he does know brilliantly that this works? One, he's got my dopey ass talking about it once again. And it allows him to control narrative and to make people who believe that he is the agent of their best interests.

Everybody else is lying to you, Coates. This windmill stuff, it's all scary, it's all wrong but not me. I've got your back. And it works.

COATES: And we were talking about that in the show tonight. The idea of now it's the royal we. It was just the world against me, now you're in on it too. Let's talk about the way in which this President is using this new tactic and maybe a little windmill conversation will come our way as well. Chris, great show as always happy holidays to you. Have a great one.

CUOMO: The best for Christmas, and thank you for being the upgrade.

COATES: Oh, you're so sweet. Thank you. All I want for Christmas is my two front teeth. This is "CNN Tonight." I'm Laura Coates sitting in for Don Lemon. As Americans pause this week to celebrate Christmas and Hanukkah, the impeachment of President Trump looms in the background.

And after we ring in the New Year, the Senate at some point will open an impeachment trial. The leader of the Senate Democrats, Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, well, he's demanding that Senate Republicans allow witnesses and documents to be introduced during the trial.

Now, that includes testimony from witnesses like Former National Security Adviser John Bolton, White House Acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney, and Schumer is actually ramping up the pressure, especially now after the release of emails showing that the President's budget office - get this.

They ordered a freeze in military funds for Ukraine just 90 minutes after President Trump spoke to President of Ukraine on July 25th, urging him, of course, to investigate Trump's political opponents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, (D-NY): President Trump has said he wants due process. Well, our proposal gives it to him. The tradition of due process is that when you are accused, you get to confront your accuser and make your case. We urge President Trump to do that through documents and witnesses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Like a trial maybe? Well, so far Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is resisting Schumer's demands to call witnesses. And now in a test of wills, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, well, at least for the moment, is declining to even send over to the Senate the two articles of impeachment against this President - abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. McConnell is now - well, he's knocking her for that. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): It seems to be a rather absurd position to say after you've impeached the President, you won't send the papers over to the Senate for the impeachment trial mandated by the constitution. Look, we're at an impasse. We can't do anything until the Speaker sends the papers over. So everybody enjoy the holidays.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: An absurd impasse, but enjoy the holidays, Mitch McConnell tells you. Well, I want to bring in John Dean and Harry Litman, both of whom are such experts in this field. Glad to have both of you here this evening. Welcome back, both of you.

You know, John, I'll start with you. Speaker Pelosi, we know she's not handing over the articles of impeachment until she says that she knows the Senate game plan. And in a way, she's kind of following the John Dean plan here. Tell us about it.

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's something I did recommend very early back in November. It occurred to me - I looked in the rules, and I said there's no requirement that the House transmit to the Senate articles of particularly when the Senate has made it very clear they're not going to give a fair trial to the American people who the House are representing.

[22:05:00]

DEAN: So indeed I started tweeting about it, I started talking about it on CNN and lone to be hold that it happened. So I'm delighted and I hope she holds them right through the election if necessary.

COATES: Is it a good plan now Harry, I mean, I know that John is the person that you want to go to now and to read the tea leaves. Get you're gambling numbers of course pick the next winner well, that sorts of things, given his track record now. But I'm going to ask you Harry, what do you think about this strategy of kind of holding these articles of impeachment? Is it going to land her with egg on her face?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER DEPUTY ASSITANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: I like the strategy. Yes, you know, it could. There's going to be a battle of wills and of American public opinion. But already 70 percent of people are saying there should be more witnesses. There should be documents like the email that was released a couple days ago.

And this is the only way to get them. She knows very well that McConnell is like Lucy with the football and Charlie Brown here as far as Schumer is concerned. He will stop at nothing once he has his grips on the actual articles and he's in charge. So she retains a modicum of leverage, and a lot of Americans in the 70 percent are saying, let's have more testimony and witness witnesses who could be against it, and there may be two, three, four Senators who agree, and that would be all it would take.

So it's going to be a battle of public opinion. If they can hold to that line, I think it's winnable. And moreover, as John recognized back in November, once it's in the Senate, you know, their chances and leverage go way down.

COATES: I mean she's no longer in control at that point, John. How significant for you is this newly revealed email that is showing that that phrase - excuse me - the freeze on the Ukrainian aid that has launched the thousand ships of impeachment, it began 90 minutes after Trump spoke to Zelensky.

And Schumer is now saying that the White House budget official who sent the email, Michael Duffey that he should testify. Does this give Democrats even more ammunition? Are we too late now for that?

DEAN: Laura, I think it was a good thing that those - that FOI, that Freedom of Information material surfaced, and I think Chuck Schumer is making good use of it to point out that there is a lot of evidence that's not being released or made available by the White House. And this just makes that point.

And it makes it rather vividly. It says first of all, it concedes that this is not - this is an extraordinary document by the sender asking it be kept quiet and sensitive. So that kind of shows that they know this isn't quite cricket what they're doing. And it also, to me, shows there's just so much more of this in the chain, in the related documents of this scheme that went on for months that would sink a President if it ever came out, even against the will of the Republicans.

COATES: Well, take a look at this tweet that came from Senator Lindsey Graham on the Speaker. He says, if she refuses, Senate Republicans should take matters into our own hands. We are in charge of the Senate, not Pelosi or Schumer. Speaker Pelosi's actions are an affront to the constitution, the Senate, and deny President Trump his day in court.

Harry, when you hear that, it builds off what you were talking about, about the idea of a strategy or a tactic here. What does this mean? How do you take matters into your own hands? What can the Senate actually do about this?

LITMAN: It means that Lindsey Graham's the latest casualty of the Donald Trump phenomenon of being debased and saying anything. There's not anything they can do until they get the articles. They absolutely, as a constitutional matter, can't start the trial. You know, eventually I think there is an argument that the House has to transmit it, but there's no reason they can't delay it for a while.

And in terms of too late, to John's point, in Watergate, the famous smoking gun tape emerged after the articles were voted on. You've been a prosecutor, Laura, and you know documents like these lead to others. There's a strong argument there should be more, and at least for a matter of weeks, it's impeccable what the Democrats are doing.

COATES: And of course, John, you make the point of Watergate that Harry did I mean the idea that the articles of impeachment are fixed in time nobody can change them any way. I mean, a trial, if it reveals additional information, there is a window where the Democrats could actually perhaps add to the articles of impeachment.

But I mean we're talking about the court of public opinion here. How persuasive would that be, or would it be damning to say; now we're going to add this in as well? Or is it part of the pattern of behavior that is part and parcel to this entire impeachment probe? What do you think, John?

[22:10:00]

DEAN: White House - excuse me - House of Representatives counsel dead letter today in court made that very point that indeed the McGahn lawsuit is trying to get the Former White House Counsel to appear before the House of Representatives is not a dead letter because they've impeached the President.

What he said in the letter is we may do it again. In fact, we might need McGahn's testimony to do that. So this is not - and the public has nothing to say about this. If there's clear evidence of obstruction of justice, I think the House will do the right thing, and McGahn is the kind of witness who could be very vivid in supplying that kind of information.

COATES: You know, Harry, speaking about Don McGahn, the DOJ, as John's talking about, is actually saying that - arguing that they should not weigh in to the McGahn testimony while the Senators are considering this entire probe and considering obstruction of Congress. What do you make of that argument that suggests somehow that Don McGahn's testimony should be off grounds for right now, that the House Democrats should not have gone to court somehow to compel witnesses?

Doesn't that smack in the face of what they've been saying all along, that they've had to go through the court, they haven't done so, this whole thing is a mockery?

LITMAN: So exactly. They've been saying, oh, well, you have to work out your judicial remedies. But then once they try them, they try to shut them down. But it's worse than that it's scarier than that. It suggests that everything he's done and will do is now off the table once these impeachment articles have been brought.

It's wrong also because the McGahn testimony - recall from Mueller, McGahn is told by Trump to fire Mueller and then told by Trump to lie about it. There's a pattern there, and the articles invoke that. And of course as Doug Leder says, it's a little bit of sabre-rattling. But if they find more stuff - this happened with Andrew Johnson - that's more counts of impeachment. Nothing is changed in that respect. So there's no less urgency than there was before to get their hands on the McGahn testimony.

COATES: You know, John, I have to ask you think about this going to the Senate at some point in time. We know the Senators are going to essentially be the jurors. But it's interesting to hear that from him considering that he said that he's not trying to be a fair juror from someone like Senator Lindsey Graham and the same goes with McConnell.

What are you thinking about the notion of having this fair trial if you have at least two Senators already who are saying, this is not going to be a fair process? They're still asking for so-called due process to play out.

DEAN: There's a big difference between being impartial and having an opinion. I think many members of the Senate have opinions. Many jurors, as you know, Laura, and as Harry knows, when they come in, they have opinions about cases. But they're asked whether they can be impartial.

Well, it's extraordinary that two leaders in the Senate have said they can't be impartial. That means that they cannot look at the evidence fairly and give a - render a judgment based on the evidence. That's what's extraordinary about the position they're taking. It's way beyond the norm.

COATES: You know, it's so true and of course it's not what the founding fathers envisioned when they wanted it to pass over to who they thought could be the most impartial of Congress. Gentlemen, thank you both for your time. I had to listen to more on Harry's podcast I know it will fill in the gaps as well coming up soon. Thank you both.

The House Minority Leader, Congressman Kevin McCarthy, he falsely is claiming now that the FBI broke into the Trump campaign, spied on it, and then covered it all up. We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:15:00]

COATES: A stunning lie from House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy. Here's part of what he said about the Inspector General's report on the start of the Russia investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): Here's the FBI. They broke into President Trump, at the time Candidate Trump's campaign, spied on him, and then they covered it up. It is a modern-day Watergate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Uh, facts first. The Inspector General's report found there was no illegal spying on the Trump Campaign whatsoever. It also found absolutely no evidence that the FBI ever broke into Trump's campaign, so no, Congressman McCarthy, this is nothing like a modern-day Watergate.

Here to discuss, Frank Bruni and Matt Lewis. I'm glad that you both are here. I mean, frank, first of all, wow, this isn't like spin. This is an outright and very dangerous lie about the U.S. Intelligence Agencies. Do you even think he believes this?

FRANK BRUNI, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No. I mean that's what's so breathtakingly cynical about it. I don't think he believes a word he just said. I think he knows better. He's not dumb enough to believe that. I hope he took a brief glance at the Inspector General's report, or maybe that's part of the problem.

What you see him doing here is essentially becoming Donald Trump. I mean what's happened in the Republican Party - and here you're looking at a Republican Leader is they're not just loyal to the President anymore. They're not just supporting him anymore. They're parroting him. They have like adopted his entire sensibility and morality.

It's like invasion of the body snatchers except all the bodies have been snatched by the spirit of Donald Trump.

COATES: I have to ask you, and I want to bring in Matt in a second. But I think I would ask you, I mean, you would think he would realize that others have access to the report. We could fact-check in real time as audience members, as voters, as viewers. Why still has the lie?

BRUNI: Because most viewers aren't going to fact-check it in real time. Most viewers in this partisan environment of ours are going to look at who their tribal leader is so to speak and they're going to say that's what I'm going to believe. We're living - and this is something that Donald Trump has accelerated, didn't create but has accelerated.

We're living in this moment where it's not a battle between truth and lie. It's a battle sometimes between who can tell the lie with the most success and shamelessness.

COATES: Well, Matt, listen to what else McCarthy had to say.

[22:20:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCARTHY: They broke into his campaign by bringing people into it. They have been trying to cover it up for the whole time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: But the IG Report, Matt, found no evidence that any member of the FBI ever even suggested putting informants into his campaign. And the report said all the witnesses they interviewed said that the FBI did not try to recruit members of the Trump campaign as confidential human sources.

They did not send confidential human sources to collect information in Trump campaign Headquarters or Trump campaign spaces. And it says it did not ask confidential human sources to join the Trump campaign or otherwise attend campaign-related events as part of the investigation.

So for those people who are literate out there, you can see it with your own eyes of course, and your own ears you can listen to it, and McCarthy is a member of the gang of eight, Matt, which means he's briefed on sensitive intelligence matters. Does that make his lies even more troubling to you?

MATT LEWIS, SENIOR COLUMNIST, DAILY BEAST: Yes, I think it does. It's interesting what's happened to the Republican Party. I mean so many things have happened, but once upon a time, you had people like Mitch McConnell and McCarthy and other leaders, they were considered establishment Rhinos.

They weren't trusted by people like, say, Jim Jordan or Mark Meadows. Now they're all on one page when it comes to Donald Trump. Look, I think what you have here is not - it's not just spin. It's contradicting the actual report, but really it's creating an alternate universe, an alternate reality.

That's what's really scary about this. It's the post-truth, your truth, my truth, post-fact Republican Party that we have right now. It's not about defending Donald Trump even when he does something horrible. It's about projection and accusing other people, going on the offense, and that's what this is, right?

Accusing other people of a break-in, turning the tables on them so it's really kind of like what you might call propaganda, I would say.

COATES: Yes, you might want to call it that, Matt. It might in fact be that. You know, Frank, McCarthy is knowingly lying to the American people. So what is worse to you? That Trump is demanding this sort of, I guess, fealty or that he's gotten it?

BRUNI: I think that he's gotten it. Listen, you're always going to have a couple of bad eggs. Invariably we're going to end up with a bad egg in the White House, and we have one there right there now, right? But what's astonishing is the number of bad eggs he has assembled and hatched all around him.

We have this funky omelette of unscrupulousness, right? And what we're seeing is that given a choice between political self-preservation or the truth and patriotism, we are seeing scores and scores of Republicans choose self-preservation, choose access to power. And that should really send a chill through all of us because that's a whole new ball game.

COATES: Matt, I want you to listen to this. This is Dana Bash's interview with Republican Senator Roy Blunt, and she repeatedly questioned him about Trump asking Ukraine to investigate the Bidens. Check this out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is a specific ask specifically about his political opponent. So do you feel that that's appropriate?

SEN. ROY BLUNT, (R-MO): Well, the President and the Secretary of State and the retired Lieutenant General who is a foreign policy adviser all feel like that call was within--

BASH: What do you think? What does Roy Blunt think?

BLUNT: You know, I think I've never been very happy with any of the Ukraine decisions since the Russians invaded Crimea. Any other President who have said, I'll have the Attorney General call you about some things we're looking into. This one didn't.

BASH: So did he make a mistake?

BLUNT: Presidents make mistakes. I don't know if this call was a mistake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Matt, so now Republicans can't acknowledge the President did anything wrong?

LEWIS: Well, in fairness, it might not have been a mistake. I think he did it on purpose. I don't think it was an accident. I'll put it to you that way. Look, here's what's depressing about it is Blunt - this is somebody who has been in politics since like 1980. He's been in Congress since 1997. He's now a U.S. Senator. He's not some, you know - this isn't Matt Gaetz down in Florida who is like a young Trumpy guy who is riding the wave.

This is a guy who's got a political career, a legacy, people who have respected him and admired him, who is not being honest. He's being intellectually dishonest, and he's, you know, again, bowing to Trump, carrying water for Trump. And if you can't count on someone like Blunt, who was sort of an establishment Republican guy who has been around forever, like who can you count on to call out Trump? Probably Justin Amash may be the one guy. He's not a Republican anymore.

COATES: The one Independent now, right, who voted in favor of the impeachment as well. Frank, you're laughing and chuckling. It's not his first time at the rodeo, but he fell off the horse.

[22:25:00]

BURNI: I just want to say this there is something really important to note here which is Trump is getting this level and fealty was the word you used in its perfect not because these men, not because Blunt and others admire him, not because they think he's worth following. This is entirely about fear.

They fear his wrath. They fear that he'll tweet about them or something, and that's what's motivating them. He is getting this level of kind of service and support not because he's an admirable human being, but because he's a cruel one.

COATES: Man, I wish that the founding fathers had contemplated Twitter. We could have solved a lot of problems that way. Thank you Frank Bruni and Matt Lewis I appreciate your time as always and your commentary.

You know, Rudy Giuliani spouting conspiracies in a bizarre bloody marry-fuelled interview. The unbelievable things he said, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: President Trump's Personal Attorney, Rudy Giuliani, spouting conspiracy theories in a bizarre interview with New York Magazine. I want to bring in Philip Bump and Juliette Kayyem. I'm glad that both of you are here. Philip, let's dig into this unbelievable - I mean unbelievable Giuliani piece. Where do we even start?

He attacked the SDNY, which is the office he ran, as you know. He said that if they are investigating him, that they're a-holes, and he says if they think I committed a crime, they're out of their minds. He said I've been doing this for 50 years. I know how not to commit crimes.

And if they think I've lost my integrity, well, maybe they've lost theirs in their insanity over hating Trump with some of the things they did that I never would have tolerated when I was U.S. attorney. Do your ears perk up to when he says, I know how not to commit crimes?

PHILLIP BUMP, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, WASHINGTON POST: Right.

COATES: Interesting word choice, Philip.

BUMP: Yes. I mean, studied philosophy in college, and you have to think about the inverse of that, which is that you must therefore also know how to commit crimes because that's necessarily the case. This is a fascinating interview and a great one by Olivia Nuzzi from New York Magazine.

[22:30:00]

BUMP: The thing that really struck me here is this is a moment when Giuliani's sole task should be bolstering this case that President Trump has made, has leveraged Ukraine to make about Vice President Biden and about interference in the 2016 election. Instead of Giuliani bolstering that case, he continues to undermine it by running his mouth, talking to reporters, and making clear that he's grabbing willy-nilly any conspiracy theory that's put in front of him. It's baffling, and it certainly doesn't suggest someone who really understands the stakes.

COATES: And remember, this is the Attorney for the President, who is supposed to be acting - well, he says the Attorney for the President. Juliette, here is what he says on Ukraine. He says, while attempting to argue that despite what has been written, I have no business interest in Ukraine. He told me about his business interests in Ukraine.

I've done two business deals in Ukraine, he says. I've sought four or five others, he said. Since he's been representing the President, he said, he has been approached with two opportunities in Ukraine, both of which he turned down to avoid accusations of impropriety. We've seen this before. He denies something, and then he admits it virtually in the very same sentence, Juliette.

JULLIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: That's exactly right. It's a remarkable piece because of what Giuliani discloses right here, which is he is being approached by Ukrainians because they know that he represents the President of the United States.

So that is why his presence in Ukraine is so sort of difficult to comprehend at this stage. He's being played, and you didn't realize he's being played. He thinks he's going to make lots of money that he's going to have these contacts that he's going to understand money laundering.

He's getting played in the same way that Trump's trying to play Ukraine. So this is sort of a - you know, these are adult men. Like I know it's sort of funny to laugh at him, and he bumps up against a wall, and he's drinking bloody Marys and whatever.

These are grown men who represent the United States of America, and I just left this article just thinking, like, is the best we got? And unfortunately I think for Donald Trump, it is and that's the sort of scary thing.

COATES: One clarification. They're both grown men, but only one is purporting to represent the United States of America, and that seems to be Rudy Giuliani.

KAYYEM: Exactly.

COATES: And of course Juliette, I mean Olivia Nuzzi tweeted out that Giuliani called her this evening to yell at her about the piece. He told her the piece was unfair as she put it. He was mostly upset about the business interest in Ukraine thing. So why would he be so upset about that, do you think?

KAYYEM: Well, I actually think that if you read the story, you sort of maybe do a word count, about a third of the story is about something that no one is talking about, which is that Giuliani is clearly trying to be Donald Trump's President in the - I mean lawyer in the impeachment proceedings.

He spends a lot of time in the article discussing that, and I think if Giuliani is upset is because he basically throws the impeachment lawyers under the bus in this article. In some ways Giuliani I think sort of realizes in some ways what he did, which is basically undermine the President's legal team as they head into impeachment. But that's what I took away from this article. This man really wants to be close to Donald Trump at this stage.

COATES: You got to love, Philip, the obvious epiphanies people have when it was obvious in the beginning. But he also attacks George Soros, and he makes this really strange and really offensive comment. He says; don't tell me I'm Anti-Semitic if I oppose him. He says Soros is hardly a Jew. I'm more of a Jew than Soros says.

I probably know more about - he doesn't go to church. He doesn't go to religion, synagogue. Soros survived Nazi occupied hungry what do you even say to this, Philip? There you go very articulate.

BUMP: The important thing to realize, though, is that comment, that bizarre comment, which is he's more Jewish than Soros but doesn't know the word synagogue. He makes it after having said that the Former Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch was under the control of Soros.

So I mean, it is not only that he a - assuming he is himself Jewish and not only that he's spreading these conspiracy theories broadly, but he's spreading conspiracy theories very specifically about this person at the center of the impeachment without any evidence. I mean this is baffling conspiracy theory that he's throwing out there.

Again, I hate to repeat myself, but this is the crux of the issue. Donald Trump has been hearing from Rudy Giuliani for a year now, but all these vast conspiracies because Giuliani is picking it up. As Juliette said, he's getting played by various people including the former prosecutor in Ukraine. And Giuliani is buying - because it benefits Trump politically, it's baffling.

COATES: I mean, the America's Former Favorite Mayor used to Juliette know the rule of you have the right to remain silent. He doesn't exercise ever, it seems in this case. But Giuliani also says Juliette that his attitude over his legacy is - what is Giuliani's legacy now after things like this?

KAYYEM: Yes. It's so interesting you say because I teach crisis management in Homeland Security, so I teach a case study on Rudy Giuliani. I assigned it this year, and I won't be able to assign it again because the students now cannot perceive of him as a rational human being.

[22:35:00]

KAYYEM: When I read the case study now about how he acted on 9/11, in some ways it's the same Giuliani, the center of attention, the sort of, you know, I don't care what anyone else thinks, the sort of screw- it attitude, which the nation and the city needed in that moment but is not appropriate today.

And can I just say one thing about conspiracy theories and George Soros? I think it's important that we call it Anti-Semitic, just period. It's the second night of Hanukkah. Giuliani is spewing Anti- Semitism and hatred, and so I just think it's important to call it that. It's not his conspiracy theory, though it is. It's George Soros' conspiracy theory.

It's just hatred, which just surrounds this President and all of the people around him, which is just, you know, still jaw-dropping after all these years.

COATES: You got to call balls, balls and strikes, strikes. Thank you both of you for playing tonight. I appreciate it. You know it's important to think about and actually articulate what it is we're seeing because if we ignore it, it becomes normalized. Thank you Phillip Bump and Juliette Kayyem as always, I appreciate your time.

The President wants his supporters to think that his impeachment isn't actually about him. He wants them to think that it's his base that's under attack. But the truth is he's being impeached, not his supporters, and this is all about him. I'll make my case next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:40:00] COATES: You know President Trump would like you to believe that this impeachment is not about him. It's really an attack on his supporters that is being inflicted on you, the good people of the electorate, to harm you. Impeachment is your enemy, not his. But make no mistake. The President was impeached and on two articles in the House just last week.

There's no doubt about that because it happened on live TV. But he's now spinning this hard and trying to make his voters feel they, in fact, are the real target. Some evidence?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It doesn't really feel like we're being impeached. The country is doing better than ever before. We did nothing wrong. We did nothing wrong, and we have tremendous support in the Republican Party like we've never had before. Nobody's ever had this kind of support. The people are trying to impeach us for doing all of the things that they've wanted to do for so many years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: We? Us? Hmm, well he tweeted this just after the House vote saying, in reality, they're not after me. They're after you. I'm just in the way. No, Mr. President. They're after you, just you. This has nothing to do with Trump supporters. In fact, it has nothing to do with voters at all, and it's not as a political vendetta as some have said, including you, to erase your supporters' votes in the 2016 election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: After three years of sinister witch hunts, hoaxes, scams, tonight the House Democrats are trying to nullify the ballots of tens of millions of patriotic Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: No, they're not, Mr. President. It's about your decision to try to shake down Ukraine and about your refusal to cooperate with a co-equal branch of government who is just trying to exercise their constitutional oversight. Impeachment is not now and, by the way, never was intended to be any form of election nullification.

An impeachment is not going to be a rewrite of election history. It won't re-tabulate the popular vote or re-allocate the votes of the Electoral College. Your vote was your vote, and President Trump won in 2016.but it's his actions since that election that have compelled Congress to now impeach him.

In fact, there's only one name that's the subject of the articles of impeachment that was passed by the House, and that's Donald John Trump, 45th President of the United States of America. He is the one who stands accused of abusing his power. He is the one that stands accused of obstructing Congress he is the one who is accused of violating his oath of office.

Just listen to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): What we are discussing today is the established fact that the President violated constitution. It is a matter of fact that the President is an ongoing threat to our national security and the integrity of our elections, the basis of our Democracy. The President used the power of his public office to obtain an improper personal political benefit at the expense of America's National Security.

When the President's wrongdoing was revealed, he launched an unprecedented, indiscriminate and categorical campaign of defiance and obstruction. Never before in the history of our nation have we seen a President declare and act as if he is above the law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: So much for "We" and "Us" there. It's those actions that Speaker of the House Pelosi is talking about those actions that are detailed in the two articles of impeachment approved by the House. And, you know, it's awfully interesting that up until the President was impeached, he acted like it was him against the entire world to drive the point home, he even tweeted this image you're seeing, an image of his own head superimposed on the body of Rocky Balboa.

The symbolism of a lone fighter apparently resonated just that much. But now that he's impeached and a trial awaits in the Senate, well, the President is changing his tune from "Eye of the tiger" to Helen Reddie's "You and me against the world."

[22:45:00]

COATES: He needs others to believe that he is a victim of impeachment and that they are victims too, that they are all in this together, that there is solidarity and strength in a collective grievance all this in order to insulate and perhaps shield himself from the consequence of his own actions.

Now, he's asking them to be unwitting pawns to try to protect him in his political chess game, it seems. The President is trying to convince his most ardent supporters to ignore the facts and decide instead that impeachment is their enemy, that a vote to convict him will be a judgment against the people, not a proposed remedy against the abuse of power by one, President Donald Trump.

President Trump's supporters, they're not under attack. Democracy is under attack. Separation of powers is under attack. Free and fair elections are under attack. And that's why the President alone was impeached. It's one thing to ask for support from your base. It's understandable.

But it's other thing to entirely try to manipulate voters into believing that the government that is of, by, and for the people is suddenly against them. Don't be misled.

You know, Bill Cosby isn't too happy about Eddie Murphy's jokes on "Saturday night live." What Cosby's saying up next?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That I would be this boring, stay-at-home, you know, house dad, and Bill Cosby would be in jail. Even I would have took that bet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:50:00]

COATES: Comedian Eddie Murphy back on Saturday night live this past weekend for the first time in 35years, his appearance a huge ratings success but Bill Cosby and his supporters not that happy that Murphy said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you told me 30 years ago that I would be this boring stay at home house dad and Bill Cosby would be in jail. Even I would have took that bet. Who is America's dad now?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Let's discuss with David Swerdlick and Kierna Mayo. I'm glad to see you both here today. Let me start with you David because you say that Cosby had it coming. Why is that?

DAVID SWERDLICK, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It boils down to this Laura; you have the situation where one guy was the clean cut comedian. Bill Cosby was on "I Spy" with Bob Coupen the 60s. He had records that you could check out at the public library. Meanwhile, Eddie Murphy was a comedian. Came along a little later, but out of that raw need danger feel Richard Prior School where they let it rip.

It was adult entertainment and you just had that sort of tie ball game. You could say maybe Eddie Murphy's line last night was a little bit of a cheap shot. The problem is, is that all the way back to the 80s Bill Cosby openly criticized Eddie Murphy for being dirty for not presenting a more respectable image as black entertainer and then you fast forward all these years and it turns out Bill Cosby has dozens of women accusing him of assault and not just you know, he groped me.

But real, real disturbed women being drugged and waking up saying that he was assaulting them. And so, it was fair game.100 percent for Eddie Murphy to be like I would have never thought I was here but here we are.

COATES: And Kierna I mean, one of the things that brought Bill Cosby's accusations and multiple accusers to light it was comedian Hannibal Burse talking about that very hypocrisy that David Swerdlick pointed out. But he was Bill Cosby was known as America's dad. He was a huge star. That was all of course before he was convicted of multiple counts of sexual assault. And now he is in jail. What was your reaction when you heard Eddie Murphy made that statement on "SNL"?

KIERNA MAYO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I thought about that pan cake speech. And the metaphor that is for their entire relationship. He has always been chiding Eddie Murphy. He has always made Eddie Murphy even as a young comedian it's very well known that when Murphy was looking for accolade. Just really respect and recognition, Cosby didn't have it to give.

He really looked down on him. Much like many in the black community have felt that he had begun to do in his later years most notably in that pound cake speech. So there is total irony in the fact that his story now is wrapped by the black comedic experience by way of Eddie Murphy. Two people who he had not prior recognized in any real fashion. Yet they're both having a profound impact on how people remember him.

COATES: Now that remained you of course back in 2015 for the SNL - 40th anniversary, Eddie Murphy had the opportunity to try to play and impersonate Bill Cosby for a jeopardy sketch written by McDonald. He refused to do so because he said that it essentially wasn't going to kick a man while he was down.

And now this is the moment that of course they are now launching back and striking back at Eddie Murphy and a spokesman for Bill Cosby fired back at Eddie Murphy and releasing a statement that says this in part saying it's sad that Mr. Murphy would take this glorious moment of returning to SNL and make disparaging remarks against Mr. Cosby.

[22:55:00]

One would think that Mr. Murphy was given his freedom to leave the plantation that he could make his own decisions but he has decided to sell himself back to being a Hollywood slave. Step plus Cooning equals the destruction of black men in Hollywood. That's an outrageous statement to make.

First of all given his freedom Hollywood slave I mean, David, why would they try to essentially race bait in this way and use a provocative language? And criticize him for criticizing Bill Cosby.

SWERDLICK: Yes, two things Laura, one if you are playing the plantation card you're losing. So I understand that the spokesman was trying to fire back at Eddie Murphy but that's a losing to essential say that the guy who is not in jail is the guy who is the house slave or the bought and paid for man of Hollywood.

Second point Laura, is that look, I'm not a comedian, but everything I know about comedy is the job of the comedian is to hold up a mirror to society. That joke was relevant and timely also personal. And that's what Eddie Murphy I think was doing.

COATES: I wish I could hear more from both of you. Kierna I know that you took the issue with the idea of him using race in this way real quick.

MAYO: Yes. Just he's no longer the arbiter of black respectability if that has any value anyway. He doesn't get once someone can call you a rapist. You don't call anyone a slave.

COATES: Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues. I appreciate both of you being part of the show.

MAYO: It's pleasure.

COATES: Thank you.

END