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Don Lemon Tonight

Sen. Amy Klobuchar (D-MN) Is Interviewed About The Status Of The Impeachment Process And Also About Iran And The Upcoming Iowa Caucus; GOP Congressman Tweeted Fake Photo Of Obama; John Bolton To Testify If Subpoenaed; Top General Says Letter Suggesting U.S. Would Withdraw Troops From Iraq Was A Mistake; Iran Vows Revenge For Soleimani Killing; State Of The Race: Polls Show Sanders, Biden, Buttigieg Tied In Iowa. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired January 06, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: That fake photo, even the flag in the background was wrong. The real picture taken in 2011 with India's prime minister.

This congressman gold star should be ashamed. But he isn't. He said I never said the picture was real. Condemned his critics saying the point of his post remains to, quote, "all but to demise." Well, his play shows him to be the dumbest. Lock out for this crap.

Thank you for watching. Welcome to the new decade. "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: That's what happens when you live in post-truth environment when alternative facts become your reality. You make up things like that. He has no shame about it. You're right. He is the dumbest.

CUOMO: No shame in his game.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: He did it to deceive and he's happy about it.

LEMON: Can you imagine? I can't even imagine that. Usually people would apologize. I'm sorry, I didn't know. The world -- what does it mean the world is better off without Barack Obama's -- what does the matter, Barack Obama is not the president anymore? Why he is still harkening back to Barack Obama?

CUOMO: Because it works and it distracts from the present. When you have a president who is telling us to take on faith and institution that he bashed every single way he could find, and he is saying something had to be done but he won't explain to you why, that's a lousy situation. That's a matter of life and death. I talk about somebody else too --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Because you said because it works. Why does it work? Who does it work on?

CUOMO: It works n people who want to believe it.

LEMON: Want to believe what though? Like you get to the bottom of what are they trying to believe.

CUOMO: With -- well, look, it doesn't have to just be race. But if they want reasons to not like President Obama, to not like Democrats, to not like diversity, to not like progress. You know, you can there's a lot of different shades.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: It sounds like you're making a case that you're making a case against.

CUOMO: No. Well, you know. Part of the job is to lay out both sides, Don. Believe it or not.

LEMON: No. It's as a simple as that.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: But what I'm saying is --

LEMON: It's a dumb comment.

CUOMO: -- it doesn't have to just be -- you don't have to be a bigot to dislike Barack Obama. But they are feeding animus. It's what demagogues do.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But they are feeding -- they are feeding animus and bigotry.

CUOMO: Yes

LEMON: So, he doesn't have to be a bigot but he is feeding that.

CUOMO: Part of it is that.

LEMON: I think if you feed then you kind of are.

CUOMO: It's -- look, it depends what -- you have to let him answer for himself. He just did so.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: We tried.

CUOMO: He did good things nice and bad. But --

LEMON: We called him he wouldn't come on. So, he won't answer because he's --

(CROSSTALK) CUOMO: No, he's not going to come on here.

LEMON: -- he's afraid.

CUOMO: He's going to come on somewhere else and say look how they're bashing this president.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Everything is about race. Everything what I did wasn't racist. Even if it's the most racist thing. I'm so sick of that shit -- crap. Whoa.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Every time you -- every time you bait -- all right, let me move on. Every time you bait race, you're making it about race and you're making it worse. But look.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: The big crisis right now is going after an Iranian general --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- it is not taking out a terrorist cell or a leader.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: This is a big deal. We all got to --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: It is a big deal. He's a bad guy.

CUOMO: People all bleed the same way.

LEMON: It's a big deal. It's a bad guy. I think everyone is -- listen, it could have been the right thing to do. But I think people have the right especially Congress to question the timing and why they weren't notified that's part of our Constitution. That's part of our government.

It could have been the right thing that they did. But we don't know at this point. They've offered no evidence that there was imminent threat. And I think we -- since what happened in the war, the Iraq war the weapons of mass destruction that were not there.

I think we have every single right to question our president and our government and what evidence that they have. Because we could be opening up a hornet's nest.

CUOMO: And you know who agrees with you?

LEMON: Who?

CUOMO: Donald John Trump.

LEMON: Because he said it. I'm going to talk about that.

CUOMO: He said they lied about that yellow cake.

LEMON: My gosh.

LEMON: And they lied about terrorism and there's nothing in it for us in U.S. intel, I'd rather believe Putin.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: He said on a world stage.

LEMON: And Obama is going to take us to war with Iran. None of which happened.

CUOMO: And now he's saying take U.S. Intel on faith, Don Lemon. LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: It's the best in the world. He's got to make the case. And now his quiet is deafening.

LEMON: It's good to see you.

CUOMO: Always a pleasure.

LEMON: Happy New Year. You came to my house on Christmas and ate up all my food and drank all my liquor. That's OK. You're welcome.

CUOMO: Yes, I appreciate the invitation.

LEMON: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Listen, we are going to catch you up on everything you need to know about the i-words. You know what the i-words have to do? They have to do with this White House at a boiling point right now. The I words are impeachment and Iran. OK?

So, with the Senate impeachment trial looming Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell still locked in a standoff.

The president's former national security adviser John Bolton threw a monkey wrench into the whole thing with his surprise announcement that he's willing to testify in the impeachment trial if he is subpoenaed. Could have done it without a subpoena. But anyway, he said he's willing so let's take him at his word.

You may remember that Bolton blasted what he called a drug deal cooked up by Trump advisers to shake down Ukraine. So, he may have quite a story to tell but only if he's subpoenaed as a witness. Something Mitch McConnell is refusing to do.

Here's Chuck Schumer.

[22:05:00] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), SENATE MINORITY LEADER: If any Senate Republican opposes issuing subpoenas to the four witnesses and documents we've requested, they would make it absolutely clear they are participating in a cover up on one of the most sacred duties we have in this Congress, in this Senate. And that is to keep a president in check.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And with the impeachment trial on the horizon, the Iran crisis that erupted when the top General Qasem Soleimani was killed in U.S. drone strike, it's throwing the administration really into chaos. OK?

The chairman of the joint chiefs today really forced to backtrack. And there's a letter to prove it. Telling reporters that a letter to the Iraqi government from U.S. command in Baghdad suggesting that U.S. troops would be withdrawn from the country said this letter was released by mistake and was misleading.

General Mark Milley saying that the letter was, quote, "poorly worded." Implies withdrawal. That is not what's happening. A White House official telling CNN the president was concerned about the mistake and, quote, wanted to, wanted it cleaned up. I'll bet he did.

But all of this really makes you wonder are we prepared? That's a real question. Are we prepared for what might come next? This is what happens when you have a president who proudly goes with his gut leaving the government scrambling to retrofit with no clear policy objectives.

General Milley, Defense Secretary Mark Esper facing uncomfortable questions today about the intelligence behind the deadly strike. Denying reports that it was razor thin. Denying reports that they were surprised the president chose to go ahead with the killing of Soleimani. And insisting the threat from Iran was imminent. Even though one official tells CNN, quote, "it all depends on what you call imminent."

And there's more from the defense secretary. Contradicting the president's threat to target Iran's cultural sites. Esper insisting, quote, "we will follow the laws of armed conflict. Laws that prohibit targeting cultural sites rather than military ones."

This is life and death. This is war and peace. This is a kind of thing that you cannot afford to get wrong. This is really a time when credibility really counts.

And guess what? This administration is squandered its credibility and it's torn down its allies. All the lies, all the misstatements. All of the petty fights with allies and the serious ones. So, is it any wonder that they're not eager to back the America first go it alone president? Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MIKE POMPEO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Frankly, the Europeans haven't been as helpful as I wish that they could be. The Brits and the French and the Germans all need to understand that what we did, what the Americans did saved lives in Europe as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Would you go with it? I don't know. The question is simple. Does this president even have a strategy? He campaigned on avoiding entanglements in the Middle East.

And remember, it was during that campaign in 2015 that Donald Trump had this exchange with radio host Hugh Hewitt. Now you may want to take in account of at that point candidate Trump didn't even know who the Iranian general was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUGH HEWITT, RADIO HOST, SALEM RADIO NETWORK: Are you familiar with General Soleimani?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Yes. I -- go ahead. Give me a little. Tell me.

HEWITT: He runs the Quds Forces.

TRUMP: Yes. OK. Right.

HEWITT: Do you expect --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: And I think the Kurds by the way have been horribly mistreated by --

(CROSSTALK)

HEWITT: No, not the Kurds. The Quds Forces, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard's Quds Forces, the bad guys.

TRUMP: Yes. Right.

HEWITT: Do you expect his behavior to change as a result --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: I thought you said Kurds. Kurds.

HEWITT: No. Quds.

TRUMP: I'm sorry. I thought you said Kurds.

HEWITT: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: The president. But take a look at this. Chris and I just talked about it. This is a fake photo of the former President Barack Obama shaking hands with the president of Iran. And this fake photo was tweeted out by a United States congressman. His name is Paul Gosar. Republican. Arizona.

CNN's Kate (ph) points out that the fake photo was photoshopped from this photo of Obama meeting with India's prime minister. And the really crazy thing here, the congressman isn't even claiming that he had made a mistake.

In fact, he seems pretty proud of himself for tweeting out a doctored photo. One that falsely implies that President Obama met with the president of Iran. And the congressman even doubles down on his claim that the world is better without President Barack Obama.

[22:10:04]

You know who else besides this congressman who has an obsession with Obama? President Trump. This is what he told right wing talk show host Rush Limbaugh today about Qasem Soleimani.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: He's a terrorist. He was designated a terrorist by President Obama. And then Obama did nothing about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So, if you're watching, if you are Rush, whoever, anyone who is watching. Say with me, everyone. Barack Obama is not president anymore. Come on. We can say it together.

Barack Obama is not president anymore. He's not the president anymore. Hillary Clinton was never the president. Barack Obama is not the president anymore. Barack has been out of office for nearly three years.

President Trump owns this crisis. Another one of his own making. But there are people wondering out loud about the timing of all of this. Elizabeth Warren telling Jake Tapper this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Next week the President of the United States could be facing an impeachment trial in the Senate. We know he's deeply upset about that. And I think people are reasonably asking why this moment? Why does he pick now to take this highly inflammatory, highly dangerous action that moves us closer to war?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Is it fair to question the motives of a commander in chief like that? When it comes to life or death decisions that could lead to war? Well, someone else once thought so. And that someone is Donald J. Trump.

Tweeting in 2011, quote, "in order to get elected, Barack Obama will start a war with Iran." And then this. This is 2012. "Don't let Obama play the Iran card in order to start a war in order to get elected. Be careful, Republicans."

And the following year, quote, "I predict that President Obama will at some point attack Iran in order to save face."

So much for that prediction. Can we go back to that the first one where he tweeted in 2011. In order to get reelected -- if you just, imagine if you just cross it out -- Donald Trump will start a war in Iran." Just flip the names.

And then 2012. Don't let Trump play the Iran card in order to start a war in order to get elected. Be careful, Republicans. And then another one. I predict that President Trump will at some point attack Iran in order to save face.

See, that happens when you tweet like that. There's a tweet for everything. I mean, he was talking Obama. I'm just saying what if you switch the names? Imagine that. Republicans as he warned you.

From impeachment to the war in Iran or to Iran, I should say, not a war. From impeachment to Iran to Iowa. There's a ton of news tonight on all fronts in the senator and presidential candidate Amy Klobuchar is here. And we're going to -- we have a lot to talk about. She's next.

[22:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The White House in chaos tonight with Iran getting more dangerous and the impeachment trial looming. That as we're just one month away from the Iowa caucus.

So, let's discuss all of that and more with Senator Amy Klobuchar who is running for the Democratic presidential nomination. Senator, thank you so much. I appreciate you joining us this evening.

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thanks, Don. Thank you.

LEMON: Very serious topics to talk about impeachment, Iran, and Iowa. We're going to talk all three. First, John Bolton says that he's prepared to testify if he is subpoenaed. But what will -- what will it take for Republicans to support that to happen. Do you think they will?

KLOBUCHAR: That's on them. And each one of them is going to have to make their own decision. Mitt Romney has clearly said that he thinks that he wants to hear from Bolton. Hear what he says. That's a big deal. And I hope more will join him.

Because the truth is Bolton is the one that was in meetings with the president. We actually heard, and this has been overlooked a bit today. One of the witnesses over in the House, Morrison who is an aide to John Bolton actually testified under oath that John Bolton had gone to a meeting with the president to try to make an effort to get the president to lift the hold on the aid to Ukraine.

He then came out and told Morrison that it wasn't happening that day. That is a pretty significant. As a former prosecutor I want to know what happened in that meeting. Things went through John Bolton and he knows a lot. And I think it is very important to have him testify as well as the three other witnesses.

That's a -- I mean, the last e-mail that was came out through a Freedom of Information request that was declassified on Mr. Duffy, one of the four witnesses actually said this. Clear direction from POTUS to continue to hold.

I don't know what else you need to know. And when you think about it, Richard Nixon had all the president's men come to testify. We are just asking for four people for a fair trial.

LEMON: OK. Let me -- let me -- I've a lot -- I've got a lot I want to ask. Can I ask you -- let's ask -- let's talk about these articles of impeachment. How long do you think that --

KLOBUCHAR: Sure.

LEMON: -- the speaker should hold these articles?

KLOBUCHAR: That is going to be negotiation that goes on, on both sides and in both chambers. But I understand why she wants to give this some sometime. Because she's simply trying to get an agreement on the witnesses.

[22:19:59]

And right now, you have the, if not one of the two most primary witnesses, the other being Mulvaney, saying that he wants to testify all of a sudden. That's a big deal. And the Republicans are going to have to digest that in the Senate and figure out what their each individually going to do.

I am sure she will send it over at some point here. But all she's trying to do is to get some agreement that we're going to have a fair trial which the American people overwhelmingly want. If President Trump believes that he should be exonerated and he claims that he should be, why is he afraid of calling these four witnesses?

LEMON: OK. Let's talk about Iran now, OK? You saw that letter the one notifying Iraq about U.S. troop movements. We're now told that it was released by mistake. Jim Acosta here at CNN is reporting that Trump wanted the letter cleaned up. That doesn't instill confidence about what happens next. Do you have any idea, any idea what the Trump strategy is right now?

KLOBUCHAR: Well, we are going to have a briefing I think on Wednesday. I've demanded this briefing and that's one of many questions we should ask because this is something that I believe got started in motion, really a cycle of escalation since the president made that ill-fated decision to get out of the Iranian nuclear agreement.

I was asked actually in the very first debate in the presidential campaign on that first debate stage in Miami, we were asked what do we see is the biggest threat. I said China economically, and when it comes to our security and the security of the world, Iran. But only because of what Donald Trump has done.

And look at what we've seen ever since. Everything that we thought would happen has happened. They are now announcing that they're going to start developing a nuclear weapon and move toward busting through the cap on uranium enrichment.

They are fragmenting -- we are fragmenting, Donald Trump is, our alliances with people all over the world. He is threatening cultural sites. He is escalating this day by day on his Twitter feed. And now troops are going over and people have been asked to leave.

So, what this calls for if I was the commander in chief and I want to be the commander in chief is reasoned leadership. It's working with our allies now to take a situation that is spinning out of control because of the guy in the White House and try to de-escalate this through diplomacy.

And then, of course when I get into the White House if I'm so honored, what I would like to do is renegotiate back into the Iranian nuclear agreement.

LEMON: OK. Let me ask you, you know, your colleague Bernie Sanders is out on the campaign trail with you. He spoke to Anderson earlier. I want -- I want to play for you how he's characterizing this killing of Soleimani. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it was an assassination. I think it was in violation of international law. This guy was a bad news guy but he was a ranking official of the Iranian government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Violation of international -- he kind of jumbled his words there. Do you agree with him?

KLOBUCHAR: I'm looking forward to this briefing to ask these questions. Right now, the evidence to me is not there that they should have reacted in this way with such major repercussions. But let's see what the evidence is in a classified setting.

Again, this is a bad guy. Bernie and I agree on that. The question though to me is right now what do you do to de-escalate this and then what you do in the long term --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Do you think that this could have been the right thing because --

KLOBUCHAR: -- to show our allies that we stand with them.

LEMON: Because, listen, I don't think questioning is the wrong thing. Right? Especially since what happened with the Iraq war. But do you think that this could have been the right move for the president to make?

KLOBUCHAR: It just given the repercussions we're seeing right now it doesn't appear so to me. But I'm glad you brought up the topic of the Iraq war. Because there was an example where a lot of people jumped to conclusion.

I wasn't in Congress but I opposed that war and in fact, it was a major issue in my U.S. Senate race the first time I ran against a Republican congressman because I opposed that war. And one of the issues there as we know is not everyone was told the truth and not everyone looked at the intelligence in the same way. So, obviously, we have to do that.

LEMON: Yes.

KLOBUCHAR: That's part of the job of a president. It's part of the job of the U.S. senator.

LEMON: I --

KLOBUCHAR: Regardless of all of that, this is not the president to have in the White House when you're trying to de-escalate things.

LEMON: Yes.

KLOBUCHAR: And you're trying to make the world safer. Time and time again he goes to make it worse.

LEMON: Yes. I heard --

(CROSSTALK)

KLOBUCHAR: He did south (Ph) of international agreements.

LEMON: Jeh Johnson was on earlier and saying that different people can look at different intelligence and come to different set of conclusions.

[22:24:59]

But let's move on now. And I want to talk about the Iowa caucus since you are running for president.

KLOBUCHAR: Sure.

LEMON: This is the latest CBS poll that governor -- U.S./CBS/YouGov poll, Iowa poll. Excuse me. You're polling at 7 percent. Sanders and Buttigieg and Biden are tied at 23 percent. Warren is at 16. You've had some fundraising, some good fund-raising numbers. How do you close that gap in less than a month, Senator?

KLOBUCHAR: I can do it. I can do it because we're starting to see it not just in Iowa. We went up dramatically in New Hampshire and it's by people getting to know me on that debate stage. I made a case that I'm someone that brings people with me. I passed over 100 bills in the U.S. Senate. I won every race I've ever had in every single congressional district. And that includes the reddest of red.

And I think as we see day after day after day the effects of having a president who is the loudest voice in the room who's always trying to divide people and put his private interest first, I'm the anecdote for that. I'm the one that can beat him.

LEMON: Senator --

KLOBUCHAR: That's my case.

LEMON: -- you've made your case very plainly here to the American people.

(CROSSTALK)

KLOBUCHAR: That's why I'm doing better every day.

LEMON: Well, thank you.

KLOBUCHAR: You watch me close that gap. One last thing I have the most endorsements of elected and former elected of any candidate that's on that five-person debate stage next week.

LEMON: Yes.

KLOBUCHAR: And we're looking forward to the debate. And that's going to make a difference.

LEMON: It's always a pleasure having you on. Thank you, Senator Klobuchar. I appreciate it.

KLOBUCHAR: OK. Thank you. See you.

LEMON: Thank you. See you.

How does a letter get released suggesting that the U.S. will withdraw troops from Iraq only to be walked back minutes later? What exactly is going on in Washington? John Kasich is here. There he is. He is going to weigh in, next.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff is saying the release of a letter suggesting the U.S. was withdrawing troops from Iraq was a mistake. Colonel Mark Milley telling reporters quote, that's not what's happening. So, let's discuss now. Former Republican Governor of Ohio, John Kasich is here.

John, good to see you. Thank you so much. Happy New Year to you. How can they make a mistake about something like withdrawing troops from Iraq, what's going on?

JOHN KASICH, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Happy New Year to you. You know, Don, I served on the Armed Services Committee for 18 years and you know, people can make mistakes but they corrected it. You know, I don't know how that release got out. I'm sure that when the chairman of the Joint Chief saw that thing, you know, he flipped and said what the heck are you people doing.

And I think this is probably related to the fact that the military announced that they were not going to be fighting ISIS right now, but they are going to be protecting themselves. How this thing would get out? I don't know, but it's a mistake, Don. People make mistakes. I make them. You make them. It's just, you know, it's not the end of the world here.

LEMON: OK. Well, I mean, it is war though. But listen, or the possibility thereof. Nineteen days ago, Trump was impeached for using the powers of his office to force a foreign government to help him cheat in the 2020 election. This weekend he publicly said that he would commit war crimes. And not one Republican in Congress has said a word about either. Why not?

KASICH: Well, I don't know. Maybe they haven't thought much about foreign policy. My concern and I listen intently to the interview you had with Senator Klobuchar. Look, my concern on all this, Don is, did they think this through? What is the overall strategy towards Iran? You know, my sense is we want to get Iran at some point back to the table. We want them to stop developing nuclear weapons. We don't want them developing more ballistic missiles. That is dangerous for everyone.

And then on top of that we want them to stop all this interference all over the Middle East. Now, taking this man out, what is the next strategy? Where do we go from here? Now, Iran says they are going to strike us. OK? I hope the strike is going to be below a certain threshold so we don't then go and strike back and then they strike and we strike and we're in a war. Because this doesn't serve anybody's interest.

LEMON: Listen, I think you're right on that. I think you're right. It does not deserve anyone's interest. But the question is seriously, when you think about this, this president again -- I'll go back to my original question and you may not want to answer it. Nineteen days ago. Impeach, right? Said he would use a foreign government to interfere. Now he's talking about committing war crimes. Right? Publicly saying it. And no one is saying anything. No one is saying, hey, this is --

KASICH: Well, you mean, you're saying he's going to bomb --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: He said -- he said he was going to do it and then his people denied it. And then he came out again and said, yes, I'm doing it. And no one said hey, Mr. President, no, that shouldn't happen. No one is saying anything. They're just sitting back and watching this. That's -- don't you think find that embarrassing or odd in the very least?

KASICH: Well, first of all, I'm an American before I'm a Republican. You and I talked about this. I saw Senator Cohen, the former Secretary of Defense who actually served in the Democrat administration, raising issues. Bringing up questions. I'm doing the same thing. You asked Klobuchar, you said, is it possible this could work out. Well, we hope it does.

But whenever you're going to take an action like this, you have to consider what all the scenarios that can unfold. Now, why somebody in the United States Senate doesn't question that. I don't know, Don.

(CROSSTALK)

Look, I'm an American before a Republican. I can't -- I'm not here to represent the Republican Party. I'm here -- I'm representing America and I'm disappointed at times with Republicans of which I'm a member. But that's a subset to being American first. I'm worried about where we're going with this. I am concerned about where this is going to develop. Who is going to be harmed? What the response is going to be. All of those things, the things that I know you're worried about just like I am.

LEMON: Listen, I think you're -- again you're right on that. But you are a Republican. I don't think you're a former Republican.

KASICH: Yes.

LEMON: So, you may have insight on the party. And I think that is a fair question to ask you. No one is saying anything. You're right about the concern. I think, most people are concerned about that whether they want to admit it or not.

[22:35:05]

KASICH: That's a good point.

LEMON: Whether many want to admit it or not, most people are concerned about your concern.

KASICH: Good point. Look, I was at the dinner tonight with a bunch of the people that I used to work with when I was governor. And the one thing I raised to them, and one of them is very active still in Republican politics. I said to them, why is it that there has been no dissent in the Republican Party? No dissent.

I mean, well, I look back on a vote that we had in, you know, when the war in Lebanon. Ronald Reagan was the president. I was one of 23 Republicans to vote to not be there. You know, why is nobody else objecting? Why don't they object to the rising debt? Where don't they -- where are they for example on Bolton? Are they

going to say that yes, they want to hear from hum, Why is no one is saying -- why isn't anybody saying OK, where is this going to take us What is your overall strategy.

LEMON: Would you vote to hear from them if you are in the Senate?

KASICH: Yes, look, I'm forgetting all the information. Now, I had been for that all in the beginning. You know, you said that I changed my mind on things. I didn't change my mind. I got more information. In terms of this whole issue of impeachment. When it comes to John Bolton, of course. Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you this question, Don. If you were in the Senate and you were Republican. And our viewers of course are freaking out at that thought. But let's say you were. Why would you not want to hear from him?

LEMON: You should read my bio. Go on.

KASICH: OK.

LEMON: I was actually a Republican at one point. But anyway.

KASICH: Why would somebody say they don't want to hear from him? I can't understand that. I could also tell you --

LEMON: Because they would be covering up for the president. They don't want something bad to come out of the president.

KASICH: You know what? Look, the Democrats screwed this up early on in the House. But now you've got Bolton saying he'll testify. Let's hear from him. I think it's important to hear from him.

LEMON: Listen, I agree. But I don't understand why it took a subpoena to hear from Bolton. He could have just said, I am going to do my duty as an American and I'm going to testify, because I think there should be transparency. He didn't -- I think he's hiding actually behind the subpoena. Because maybe he's calling the bluff of Republicans and maybe they won't subpoena him.

But all he had to do is say, I'm willing to testify. I am an American -- I was hired by the president and the president picked me. But I work for the American people, so I'm going to go testify and tell the truth. Maybe he would have exonerated the president or help to exonerate the president. Who knows?

KASICH: Yes, I mean, that's very possible. But now it's going to get down my understanding of the rules -- I don't even know what the rules are going to be down there for sure, but it's going to take like four Republicans.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I have to go. You know how (inaudible) works.

(CROSSTALK)

They're moving me on, because I got other stuff to get to.

KASICH: I know.

LEMON: We love you, but I don't have that much time tonight. Happy New Year. Good to see you.

KASICH: You have to give me more time, Don. You cut me off. I have a lot to say.

LEMON: Sorry about Ohio state, by the way.

KASICH: Happy New Year.

LEMON: All that smack you talked about Ohio State.

KASICH: We'll get to that in another time.

LEMON: Goodbye. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:40:00]

LEMON: It's day break in Iran. And the funeral for the Iranian General Qasem Soleimani is about to get under way. That after huge crowds of people jammed the streets of Iran's the capitol to mourn him and the others killed last week in a U.S. air strike. The Iranian government is vowing to take revenge saying it will attack U.S. military sites.

I want to bring in George Packer, who has an article in The Atlantic about Soleimani's killing. George, thank you so much. I appreciate you joining us here.

GEORGE PACKER, STAFF REPORTER, THE ATLANTIC: My pleasure.

LEMON: This was a fascinating article. I'm going to read some of it. But the headline here is Killing Soleimani was worse than a crime, it was a blunder. You say it was possibly catastrophic? Why is that?

PACKER: Because we don't know what's going to happen next. Anyone who goes on TV and says this is what will happen next is lying. Because it's all up to the Iranians now. The ball is in their court. And they have habit of calibrating responses to things like that. Because they don't want an all-out war with the United States.

So, I don't imagine there's going to be a kind of retaliation that forces Trump to go to the higher level. But we don't know what they are going to do. We push them into a corner. And there's going to be more violence. And it will go out of control.

LEMON: I want to read this. We have a short condense version of what you say, but I think it's important just to read this part, the whole thing. You said, the main question about the strike isn't moral or legal, it is strategic. That's what you say. Soleimani was supremely powerful leader in the state's apparatus with his own cult personality. But he was not a terror kingpin.

His death doesn't decapitate anything. He had the blood of 10's of thousands of people overwhelmingly fellow Muslims on his hands, but he was only the agent of a government policy that proceeded him and will continue without him. His deeds are (inaudible) the point. So, is the display of American resolve the only reason to kill Soleimani is to enter a new war that the United States can win. I mean, you go on to say killing Soleimani will only lead to more violence perhaps much more. How do you square that? How is it going to lead to more violence?

PACKER: Because Iran has to answer. This man is so important. He was -- first of all a kind of cult hero in Iran and he was the key to their regional strategy. He was the guy carrying out for two decades a strategy of expanding Iran and influence. Creating a kind of a wider perimeter and security. So there would never again be an Iran-Iraq war.

LEMON: There's a rebuttal to that, he was a bad guy (inaudible).

PACKER: He was a terrible guy. He deserved it. He had it coming. But does that mean as a government, as a super-power, we do something stupid in order to provoke a response which will come. Which we can't predict and which we are not in a good position to counter. Because we don't have any allies with us.

The Congress wasn't consulted. The American people are very skeptical about this. We don't see any intelligence defending this. There is nothing there that a government -- that the Trump administration can say we need to come together as Americans in a cause. We are not together as a cause.

LEMON: OK. Why are you saying that this was not about deterrence? If it's not about deterrence then why would the president order this strike?

[22:45:04]

PACKER: I don't know why he ordered it. Because someone put this options in front of him at Mar-a-Lago and said yes or no. And he was in the mood to say yes. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

LEMON: We talked about this president's content earlier with his obsession, I should say, with the former President Barack Obama. You write about that. He has contempt for his predecessor. Does this have anything to do with that?

PACKER: Yes. A lot. A lot, because he has undone every policy of President Obama that he could. And maybe none more significant than the Iranian nuclear deal that was negotiated in 2014-15 and finally signed by us, the Iranians and our allies in Europe. And the Russians and the Chinese. It was a global deal that would limit Iranian nuclear production.

So, that for at least 10 or 15 years, Iran could not break out and have a nuclear weapon. Trump never liked it. As soon as he could he got out of it. And once that happened in 2018, we were on an (inaudible) bull path to where we are now. Because what did he have in place of diplomacy?

He didn't want to go to war with Iran. So, he had sanctions and he imposed this choking sanctions which destroyed the Iran economy. And to them was a threat to their security, because they couldn't sell their oil. So, they began ratcheting up military action and it finally escalated to the killing of Soleimani and that's where we are.

LEMON: I know it deserves a longer answer, but the short as you can. If you can do it in ten seconds. Soleimani was in gun sights before, in an American gun sight before, and they decided strategically not to kill him. Because?

PACKER: Right. Because it would lead to a potential war with Iran. And that's where we are tonight.

LEMON: Thank you.

PACKER: Thank you.

LEMON: I appreciate your time. It's 2020 and that means the Iowa caucus are less than a month away. And the latest poll shows a three way tie state of the race. Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:50:00]

LEMON: Now to the state of the race. We are just weeks away from the Iowa caucuses. The first contest in the race of Democratic presidential nomination. Let's look ahead with CNN's Senior Political Commentator, Mr. David Axelrod.

David, so good to see you. Happy New Year.

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Happy New Year.

LEMON: A new decade. Listen I love to get your take on the contest in Iowa and whether it is more or less significant in this race than it has been in the past.

AXELROD: You know, I think it's pointing about the same role which is it's going to win all the field and it's going to -- it's going to designate a frontrunner going out or at least a couple of them. And I think for a few candidates, it's extremely important for Pete Buttigieg, for Elizabeth Warren who would stake so much in Iowa.

And it is really important for Joe Biden to do very well there. He's the front runner in the national race, but he has to do reasonably well in Iowa and New Hampshire in order to make good on that promise. And you know, things are looking up for him, I think in the last few weeks as we turn the corner to the voting.

LEMON: Well, you know we got a debate in Iowa next Tuesday night. The biggest issues for Democratic voters going, what are they going to be? What do you want to hear?

AXELROD: Well, look, I think -- if you ask people one of the biggest issues, they would say healthcare, perhaps national security had moved up which is one of the things that is helping Biden. But I think the real issue is who can beat Donald Trump. And that is what Biden has staked his candidacy on. He positive himself as the guy who can beat Donald Trump.

And Trump has assisted in that through this Ukrainian cape or fingering Biden is the guy he most he feared. And I think that's actually strengthen Biden and the Iranian decision by Trump has also made national security more important also probably helps Biden in this project. So, you know, if Iowa works in seasons and the summer belongs to Elizabeth Warren, Pete Buttigieg own the fall and now Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden are the lions of winter, right? They are surging as the day approaches.

LEMON: Yes. So, let's talk about more about the positioning that you just mentioned there, because this is -- let's put up the CBS poll. Joe Biden is in a three-way tie with Bernie Sanders and Mayor Pete Buttigieg for first in Iowa. Whose position of those three would you rather be in?

AXELROD: You know that's really hard to say. I think Sanders probably, because you know, he has almost in vulnerable here. He has -- he raised more money than anyone else, he's got a very committed core of supporters, he's going to do reasonably well in Iowa. He could win Iowa. He didn't do well in New Hampshire.

LEMON: Did people ride him off into the heart attack?

AXELROD: Yes, they did. I mean I think the thing that we should -- we re-learned this lesson every four years which is, don't jump to any conclusions about Iowa or a presidential race too early. There are too many dynamics. Things change.

He's comes back smartly. Elizabeth Warren had some issues related to Medicare for all that tripped her up a bit. She still could win by the way. She has the best organization by everyone reckoning in Iowa. So she should not be counted out. Buttigieg is obviously strong there.

So, you know, any of these people could finish from first to fourth in Iowa and so, you know, there is going to be some mystery to it. But for some people, Buttigieg, Warren, Amy Klobuchar for sure who is in fifth place, they need to do very well there in order to sustain their candidacies for the long run.

[22:55:07]

LEMON: You know, David, I spoke with Joe Biden, not too long ago and I asked him about Iowa. He seemed quite confident. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, 2020 U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You have a circumstance where you got to go out to Iowa and make the case, town to town, and so we have a first rate operation there now. I think we are going to win Iowa.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, that did not seem likely then as it is now. It may seem now. Has Biden strengthen his position over the last six weeks or so?

AXELROD: Well, there is no doubt that he has. And again, I think that the attacks from the Republicans and Trump through this impeachment process combined with this Iranian move this week, I think both helped him. But I -- you know, he still could finish anywhere from first to fourth. And one of the things that is challenging for him is the enthusiasm element.

You know, he hasn't raised as much money, doing better than others and on the ground in Iowa, what you hear is the enthusiasm is not as great for him. That's important, Don, in the caucus where people had to come out in the dead of night and stand with their neighbors and declare their preferences.

And so your people have to be motivated to come. And that's something that I think I would worry about if I were Biden. Not whether there are supporters out there, but whether they are going to come and vote and whether they can match the enthusiasm of a Warren or a Buttigieg or a Sanders.

LEMON: David Axelrod. Always a pleasure. Thank you, sir.

AXELROD: All right, Don. See you later.

LEMON: Make sure you tune in. The last debate before the first vote is only on CNN. Top Democrats head to Iowa for a live CNN presidential debate in partnership with the Des Moines Register. That's Tuesday, January 14th at 8:00, only here on CNN.

Iran and impeachment. It is high pressure, high stakes, it's the start of 2020. And not to mention, there's a presidential election campaign all at the same time.

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