Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

House Managers Lay Out Abuse Of Power Case Against Donald Trump; Interview With Sen. Chris Coons (D-DE), Describing What It's Like Inside The Impeachment Trial. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired January 23, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(IMPEACHMENT TRIAL)

[22:30:00]

(BEGIN LIVE VIDEO)

(IMPEACHMENT TRIAL)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Majority leader is recognized.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MAJORITY LEADER: I ask unanimous consent that the trial adjourn until 1:00 p.m. Friday, January the 24th, and that this order also constitute the adjournment of the Senate.

JOHN ROBERTS, CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT: Without objection, so ordered. The Senate is adjourned.

(END VIDEO LIVE FEED)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is our breaking news tonight. We have been watching the House managers wrapping up day two of their arguments, a very emotional closing there from the lead impeachment manager, Adam Schiff, saying right matters. Truth matters. Otherwise we are lost, getting choked up there.

He's saying that we cannot count on President Trump to put the American people's interests first, that he will do what's right for Donald Trump and not for the American people. It is a day when they laid out the abuse of power case in the impeachment trial of this president, President Trump.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. Thank you so much for joining us and staying up late and going through this very long day here. It's been going all afternoon and all night.

A lot of the strongest moments coming from Democrats playing back soundbites from the close Donald Trump allies like Lindsey Graham and Rudy Giuliani, and sworn testimony from diplomats Bill Taylor, Gordon Sondland, and David Holmes. House managers return tomorrow afternoon at 1:00 p.m. You heard the Senate majority leader saying that as well as Justice Roberts as well.

Team Trump currently set to begin their arguments Saturday. CNN learning that right now they expect to use two days, not three. Sometime next week comes the next phase, 16 hours for Senators to ask questions through the Chief Justice John Roberts, and only after that, the vote on the big question in all this, whether to call witnesses.

So let's bring in now John Dean, Laura Coates is here as well, Frank Bruni, Katherine Rampell joins us. Wow, John, it's amazing. It has been amazing, I have to be honest, to watch Adam Schiff through all of this. The House impeachment managers, all of them doing very well to present their case. But to watch Adam Schiff become emotional and to present his arguments, it has really been a thing to watch, I think.

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: He's very strong. They did -- he laid out and started the day with a broad brush of where they were going, and then they went piece by piece, a deep dive into each phase of the abuse of power.

[22:35:04]

And it was very convincing. It's overwhelming evidence. It's awfully hard for anybody who listens and follows this to just brush it off and -- excuse me.

LEMON: What has been interesting to me is -- what was interesting to me in his closing, I think what was the most important close and central point that I've been watching all day at home and flipping through the channels and listening to Trump allies, conservative commentators, some of them saying what Adam Schiff said, OK, so he did this.

OK, so he's guilty. That does not mean that he should be removed from office. And that was Adam Schiff's closing today. What do you say to that?

LAURA COATES, CNN INTERNATIONAL LEGAL ANALYST: I mean, his emotional appeal to a sense of what's right, to a sense of what is right for the country is so completely compelling and persuasive to anyone who was listening about what is really at stake. They were answering the question of why does this matter? Why is this an appropriate action to take in terms of the impeachment? Why is this not just a so what if he did it? And even if he did it, what's the consequence?

But what this points out is really what the founding fathers have presented as a binary choice that really is what is at the heart of Adam Schiff's argument. And I think at the heart of what the Republicans who are not receptive to that appeal for what's right, that is the binary choice is either you can acquit or you can convict and remove. And there is no gray area.

And it's forcing them to take a stand and say, if I believe -- if I believe what Adam Schiff is saying -- I think they actually do, that this is what happened, that there was the abuse of power, that there was a concerted effort to cover up information, that there was a collection of team members involved and almost on everyone is in on it. Then unfortunately the choice of, is it enough to remove a president and virtually put me up for the ridicule by the president of the United States? And that's the part that I think American voters are wrestling with.

Is that really the fear, the wrath of Twitter thumbs? Or should it be the fear that the democracy can go away, because you no longer are able to avoid that question, so what?

LEMON: Yes. Listen, I know the criticism is, well, you know, the commentator sitting on television say, Adam Schiff is, you know, his presentation was strong. But even Lindsey Graham said the same thing last night, complimenting Adam Chiffon his presentation.

The question is strong did a good job of convincing possibly the American people or people who are sitting in, you know, TV studios watching lawyers, what have you. Did he convince anyone in that chamber? Did he change any minds?

FRANK BRUNI, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I suspect not. I suspect he has shamed some of them because, one of you said a moment ago they know he's right, that what Trump did is not right. And I think almost every Republican senator sitting there knows and would say in private, in his heart of hearts, the president didn't do something right. And Adam Schiff is absolutely right, that this is the president who consistently puts himself ahead of the country.

And he's trying to kind of make them think (inaudible), as you are letting him off the hook, wrestle with what you really know. And it's interesting. The day began with Congressman -- that Representative Nadler using again, and again the phrase personal interest, personal interest in reference to the president. And then it ended with Adam Schiff saying, he will not do what's right for the country. He will do what's right for Donald Trump.

And he's asking those Senators to think about what it means to have a man like that in the presidency. And he's asking all those Americans who are watching and who are going to go to the polls in November 2020 and vote not just in the presidential election, but vote in tight Senate races and decide whether to keep these Republicans in or out. He's asking them to think about that same question whether a man of Donald Trump's character -- and character is what those final words were about, is OK to have in the presidency.

LEMON: This is not necessarily specific to this, Catherine, but I just want to ask you. This is a CNN poll conducted by SSRS on impeachment charges against -- this is impeachment charges against President Trump. Abused powers of the presidency, 58 percent of Americans say it's true.

Obstructed justice, 57 percent of Americans say it's true. And this is from pew. This is one not specific to the trial. About 6 in 10 Americans, 63 percent think Donald Trump has probably or definitely done things that are illegal, either during the 2016 election campaign or during his time in office.

CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes, and actually in that pew survey that you mention, a third of Republicans and Republican leaders say that they think that President Trump did something illegal. Even so, even though they believe Trump broke the law, most of that group -- again, of Republicans who think he did something illegal -- do not think he should be removed from office.

And that's really the crux of the issue here. It's not even so much as we're fighting over facts, although, obviously there is some dispute over the facts. People live in different realities. But even when we agree on the facts, there are enough Americans who say, sure, he's a crook, but he's my crook.

[22:40:10]

You know, he's looking out for my interests. He gets me. And so long as there is still that sort of cultish following of the man in the Oval Office, it's hard to see the country really turning and putting sufficient pressure on the Senators whose votes need to be committed on the guilty side.

LEMON: Similar question to what I asked Frank, John. For the last couple days, you know, these Republican Senators who have been living in a Fox News bubble, they are now confronted with the facts, evidence, questions. You know, and my question is what are they going to do with this now? What are they going to do with the facts?

DEAN: I think a lot of them it's been very painful. They heard things they didn't want to know about their president. And this is the first time they probably learned some of these things. So what are they going to do? They're going to vote the Party line. And I think they're going to pay dearly for it, some of the Senators. But I'm most troubled, not that he's going to get away with this. But if he gets reelected, we've got a president who is unchecked, uncheckable, and our democracy has changed dramatically.

LEMON: The House Manager Jerry Nadler says, President Trump puts President Nixon to shame in abusing power. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JERRY NADLER (D-NY), HOUSE MANAGER: This presidential stonewalling of Congress is unprecedented in the 238-year history of our constitutional republic. It puts even President Nixon to shame. Taken together, the articles and the evidence conclusively establish that President Trump has placed his own personal, political interests first. He has placed them above our national security, above our free and fair elections, and above our system of checks and balances. This conduct is not America first, it is Donald Trump first.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Is he right?

DEAN: He certainly nailed it. I kept thinking all day, this is an abuse of power which Nixon was charged with. But more uniquely, Nixon's tapes that were extracted for Watergate are called the abuse of power tapes. I've gone through all those tapes. And I've got to tell you, what I'm hearing about Donald Trump's activity makes Nixon look like a choir boy.

LEMON: Oh, boy. Stand by, I want to get to our reporters. CNN's Jeff Zeleny and Kaitlan Collins, good evening to both of you. Jeff, you first, another marathon day and we saw House managers really use the president's allies against him.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Don, we did. Good evening. And sitting in the chamber, one thing was clear. As the president's own voice kept coming back again and again, and a lot of the president's allies as you said, including Lindsey Graham, a 1999 clip of Lindsey Graham of course, arguing at the Clinton impeachment trial when he was a House manager, that there does not, in fact, need to be a crime to impeach. Of course, that is the exact opposite of what the argument is now that the president's lawyers are making.

But we also saw a cast of the president's allies also being mentioned in the Democratic impeachment managers' case throughout the day. William Barr, the Attorney General of the United States, and Rudy Giuliani, of course, again and again Rudy Giuliani was a central character in the discussion throughout the day.

One thing was striking, Don, as your -- you know, the central question here is, is there going to be one more Republican? Is there going to be a four in all to join Democrats and ask for more witnesses? As we stand here at the end of the day, that is very much an open question. And the consensus is perhaps not because, you know, as John -- he was just saying, there is no question partisan lines are deeply drawn here.

And we hear again and again, Republicans say we did not learn anything new. Democrats say, well, then you should ask for more witnesses and documents. So that's where we are after all this testimony. Talking to Senators here, I'm not sure much changed today, Don.

LEMON: Jeff, Rudy Giuliani, we understand, is responding to today's arguments. What's he saying?

ZELENY: He is, in a statement just a short time ago to our Dana Bash, Rudy Giuliani did push back on the assertion that he was really included again and again. Let's take a look at his statement, at least a short part of it. He said this.

He said that -- if we can pull up on screen here. He said that it is impossible to reply to all their lies and deceptions. I know I did nothing wrong, but my job as a really good lawyer. Unfortunately -- if we can keep going here -- I uncovered the tip of the iceberg of the Obama administration sale of public office for millions and they want to destroy me to stop the --

[22:45:08]

-- sorry, Don -- message from penetrating. But I have faith if you just follow the money you will find the crooks. So the point is Rudy Giuliani pushing back on all of this, saying that, you know, he did nothing wrong. Of course, we could fact check this statement throughout the evening, Don. But the reality, all of Rudy Giuliani's actions, they are front and center in this trial here. A remarkable day, but again, unclear if any minds changed.

LEMON: Yes. I understand that there is a bit of delay in your reading.

ZELENY: I apologize for that.

LEMON: No, no. That's OK. I just wanted a full transparency, Jeff is reading it off the screen. There is a bit of a delay where he is at the capital.

Kaitlan, listen, you have new reporting about how the president's legal team is preparing for their opening statements. What can you tell us about that?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're certainly not happy that Rudy Giuliani is continuing to be brought up and involved in all of this. And not only that was he a point of center in the statements today, they were continuing, as Jeff was pointing out.

Rudy Giuliani also announced that he is starting a podcast tomorrow and some White House officials who we have been talking to about that have essentially rolled their eyes because that comes as the legal team is prepping for how they're going to respond to these opening statements that you're seeing laid out by Democrats.

Now, of course, there are not a lot of big fans of Adam Schiff in the White House or in the president's circle. But several people have commented about how well laid out these narratives have been as you've seen over the last few days. And of course, that's what the White House legal team is looking at because they've got to be able to counter that. And so far, we've really seen them attack the process so far.

Now, those prep sessions have included them meeting up here at the White House before they go to the Capital every day. That includes Pat Cipollone, the White House counsel, Jay Sekulow, the president's outside attorney, the two lawyers that you're going to see on the floor the most we are told for President Trump. And right now they are thinking about going for about two days in their arguments, though they may go longer.

But so far, they do not expect to use that full 24 hours they are going to be given to respond to this. And Don, essentially the end of it is their main goal is not to get the president not -- acquitted, because they feel comfortable that they don't have to worry about that right now. Not a lot of minds changed, in their opinion. Their big goal is going to be no witnesses, I'm told.

LEMON: Yes, and they want to use some of the video clips and soundbites. I guess, imitation is the best form of flattery. Is the team, the president's legal team, planning to use their full 24 hours, Kaitlan?

COLLINS: No, they don't think so, so far. It's interesting you bring up the video clips, because that's something they didn't have in those first arguments over the amendments. Which the White House argued they couldn't have really good video clips there, because the Democrats knew which amendments they were going to put forward. That's why they didn't have them there.

The question still is going to be whether or not they use clips of that testimony from the House trial when they're making their case. Starting on Saturday. Don, the other big question is going to be the timing on all this. Because as our help team said earlier, there is talk among Republicans about shortening that day on Saturday to give them a little bit of a break, to get -- let them catch up on some sleep.

But you've got to remember, this is a president who prioritizes the Sunday shows and he wants the coverage on there to be favorable to him, not just going to be the highlights of the Democrats and their argument. So that's going to be a big question the White House has to factor in as they are getting ready to make their arguments.

LEMON: All right. Kaitlan and Jeff, thank you so much, I appreciate that. We have a lot more on the Democrats abuse of power case against the president and what to expect as the impeachment trial moves into the next phase.

[22:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: This our breaking news, House impeachment managers just wrapping up day two of their arguments, laying out the abuse of power case against President Trump, back with me now John Dean, Laura Coates, Frank Bruni and Catherine Rampell. So, welcome back everyone. So, we've got the TV president now and he's lined up his group of TV lawyers. They're adding, as you heard, Kaitlan Collins today, adding some soundbites because they saw how effective it was with the Democrats.

But he's -- they were using soundbites of his allies. Senator Graham, ally Senator Graham, Alan Dershowitz, and, you know, Lindsey Graham, Alan Dershowitz. But he's got Alan Dershowitz in there and he's got Kenneth Starr and they're using soundbites from all of them. How is that going to play out you think once the Republicans come --

BRUNI: Well, it's interesting you've mentioned these people who have all flipped over time. And I think, one of the big themes today was hypocrisy, that were kept on coming up in my mind and I think they were trying to show Donald Trump and his enablers, all as a bunch of hypocrites.

It was interesting, you also just said something about the TV lawyers. The TV lawyers, as Trump was assembling this team of lawyers, as the White House was developing its strategy, we kept on getting really good reporting from White House reporters who were saying Donald Trump and people around him would ask the question.

We know how this person is as an attorney, but we don't know how this person is on TV. And it's a fair question for a televised trial, but it was also such a great, great distillation of the Trump ethos in approach to everything. How does it play on TV? What are the optics? How does everybody look? Right? I mean, that is the way Trump navigates the world and that's the way he's navigating his impeachment trial.

LEMON: Is that a bad strategy though?

BRUNI: Well, in this instant it might help and then actually it's probably one of the reason he got elected.

LEMON: Yes. Standby everyone. I want to bring in now Democratic Senator Chris Coons. Senator, thank you so much. I appreciate you joining us. We know it is a very long day for you.

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): A very long day.

LEMON: Yes, another long day on the Senate floor. Describe what it's like inside the room. Do you think the dynamics are changing at all?

COONS: I do. I've had the chance to talk with a couple of my colleagues from both sides at the end of today. Adam Schiff gave, once again, just a really compelling close and the House managers presented a very broad sweep of the evidence that they've been able to develop in the House Intelligence Committee and the House Judiciary Committee.

Don, frankly most Senators, as those hearings were going on over in the House we were busy here in the Senate, we had our own committee meetings, our own work to attend to.

[22:55:09]

So, I really think that over the last two days the members of the Senate have for the first time heard all of the evidence that's been developed so far and I'll remind you a lot of it's been blocked. President Trump has engaged in a breathtaking and unprecedented stonewalling effort to prevent us from hearing the most central witnesses and the most central documents.

But they still managed to develop a remarkable breadth of information given the testimony of a dozen very brave witnesses who came forward at risk to their own careers and in violation of direct orders from the president and what they had to testify to today was stunning. The close from Adam Schiff, to the point you were just making, was that president Donald Trump is more surface than substance. We know he will put himself ahead of our nation and that's why in his closing he was arguing we must remove him.

LEMON: So, do you think that some -- well, some of the Senators, I would imagine, I know they've been living in Fox News conservative bubble. Do you think that bubble was broken, and is there any sign that the four Republicans will -- are going to vote with Democrats in favor of witnesses and more documents in this case?

COONS: Well, I think there's a number of members who are wrestling with the question, what would it mean to vote for witnesses and documents? Because they are hearing counterarguments that that would be tied up for months in the courts, that the president would promptly assert executive privilege and that it would get litigated and so the concern, I think, on the part of a number of my colleagues is that if they did vote, which would be a number of days from now, probably mid next week.

If they did vote to allow more documents to request more witnesses what would that actually mean? How would that play out in practice? It was very clear from the case that was presented today and yesterday that there's a very small number of people who are directly relevant to this case. They were in the room. They were on the call. They were on the emails and they could answer questions directly.

And I'll tell you, we don't know exactly how they'd testify. One of the oldest rules in court is don't call a witness where you don't know what they're going to testify to. They might end up exonerating the president. They might make the arguments that would help Republicans vote against removal. But we in the Democratic caucus are committed to a full, fair and open trial, and that means having the witnesses who we know are most relevant, who have been blocked and stonewalled so far by President Trump.

LEMON: Senator Coons, I have to ask you, are you exchanging ideas with other Senators about the evidence or what questions you might ask when your question time comes?

COONS: That's right, we are, because frankly in a typical trial the prosecutor presents their case. Then the defense presents their case and then there's a rebuttal. Here there will not be a rebuttal for the House managers. So the question time, the two days when Senators will be asking questions really has to function as that rebuttal.

So, we already know what the principal arguments will be by both sides. We've read their briefs, those of us who are tracking this closely and reading the briefs that had already been submitted. I expect the president's advocates will make the jaw dropping argument that even if everything that's been alleged by the House managers were accepted as true, you still can't impeach the president, because he can't be impeached for abuse of power.

And so I think there's some fairly obvious questions that result from that. My hope is we'll find some way to have a few bipartisan questions that would help sort of set the path towards witnesses and documents. But frankly so far what votes we've taken have depressingly predictable and partisan.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, Senator Chris Coons, I appreciate it, get some sleep.

COONS: Thank you, Don. Great to be with you.

LEMON: Thank you very much.

All right, back with my experts here. We've got just a few seconds here before we get to Anderson. Final thoughts, give me yours, first. What do you think?

DEAN: It's still a good road ahead and it's going to be interesting to see how it turns out.

LEMON: What do you think, Laura? COATES: Tomorrow is an easier day than it has been. They have to

prove that there has been obstruction of Congress. They have to prove that the number zero exists and it's out there, zero documents, zero witnesses, they have not cooperated. It's a much easier road tomorrow.

LEMON: What do you think?

BRUNI: Adam Schiff --

LEMON: Mr. Bruni.

BRUNI: Adam Schiff thanked them for all tonight for keeping such an open mind. I think that was wishful thinking.

LEMON: That was --

BRUNI: That was pure flattery based on nothing in evidence so far.

LEMON: So as saying the same thing, it was like, he's being extremely nice. What do you think?

RAMPELL: I agree that proving the obstruction case will be a much easier lift in part because Trump is already going on TV and saying they don't have any documents because we haven't given them any documents. He's like making the case for the Democrats at this point.

LEMON: We have everything, yes. I think -- thank you all. He says we can't count on Trump to put the American people's interests first. Do what's right. He will do what's right for Trump. Adam Schiff making his final case tonight.

Thanks for watching, everyone. I'm Don Lemon.

Our special live coverage of the impeachment trial of President Trump continues now with Anderson Cooper.