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Don Lemon Tonight
Sen. Jeff Merkley (D-OR) Was Interviewed About the Republicans Reaction to Congressman Adam Schiff's Closing Argument; White House Defense Team to Present their Trailer-like Argument; The Impeachment Trial Of Donald J. Trump; Dems Wrap Their Case; Trump's Lawyers Begin Defense Tomorrow; President Trump Caught On Tape Demanding Firing Of Ambassador To Ukraine, Attorney Says; Audio Tape Of President Trump Demanding Firing Of Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch. 10-11p ET
Aired January 24, 2020 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
ASHA RANGAPPA, CNN LEGAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Impeachment is, by definition, a congressional intrusion.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Right.
RANGAPPA: And so, I think executive privilege has the lowest validity in this particular context.
CUOMO: Well, I'll tell you, a lot of questions were answered tonight. Thank you, Andrew McCabe, Asha Rangappa. Thank you, Professor Gerhardt, John Dean, and Jeffrey Toobin ran off to continue our coverage. This is a historic night.
Thank you for watching. CNN Tonight with Don Lemon continues right now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Historic and certainly emotional, Chris, if you watched that closing by Adam Schiff. And any American should be moved by that, by the topics.
I got a note from a friend who said it must be like listening to the founding fathers, that Schiff was certainly an emotional speech and a true speech from an American. That's an American speech. That's what it's like to be an American, so listen to the topics.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: The stakes for every bit as high as anything that we've heard, you and I in our lifetime in terms of coming out of government and what their duty is and what they're being compromised by. What happens next, we'll watch. But they have a lot to explain, the Republicans if they ignore what's obvious.
LEMON: Yes. Well, we shall see. We've got a lot to do here. Thank you, Chris. I appreciate it.
This is our breaking news here. House Democrats wrapping up the final day of their case against President Trump, arguing that he abused the power of his office. He obstructed Congress in their investigation.
This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon. Thank you so much for joining us.
Impeachment managers laying out an extensive case that the president of the United States obstructed Congress, flagrantly defying subpoenas, withholding documents, refusing to allow witnesses to testify, and warning that if a president can obstruct an investigation by Congress, the power to impeach, the remedy provided by the Constitution, will be gone.
Lead impeachment manager Adam Schiff delivering what you could call a rebuttal of the president's defense. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): I leave you to your own judgments about the president. I only hate what he's done to this country. I grieve for what he's done to this country.
But when they make the argument to you that this is only happening because they hate the president, it is just another of the myriad forms of, please do not consider what the president did.
Whether you like the president or you dislike the president is immaterial. It's all about the Constitution and his misconduct. If it meets the standard of impeachable conduct as we have proved, it doesn't matter whether you like him. It doesn't matter whether you dislike him. What matters is whether he is a danger to the country because he will do it again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Here's something you probably don't know. Schiff was still writing his closing in longhand, by the way, on the Senate floor during the break, turning it into a powerful plea for a fair trial, a fair trial for America.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCHIFF: One of the things that separates us from those people in Elgin Prison is the right to a trial. It's the right to a trial. Americans get a fair trial. And, so, I ask you, I implore you, give America a fair trial. Give America a fair trial. She's worth it. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, here's the question. The question is, will that trial include witnesses? Will it include new evidence? Will it be the kind of a fair trial a large majority of Americans have said that they want?
We won't find out until sometime next week after the president's lawyers make their arguments tomorrow morning, after senators have 16 hours to ask questions through Chief Justice John Roberts, only after all that the vote on whether to call witnesses and admit new evidence. Will America get a fair trial? Let's pose some of these questions to our experts here. I want to
bring in Mark McKinnon, John Dean, Jeffrey Toobin, and Catherine Rampell. Thank you so much for having all of us here -- all of you being here.
Jeffrey, you've been on a long time. Thank you so much. I want to know what you thought about the closing because I thought it was very powerful. I was transfixed. I stop reading in on the show and watch. The Constitution of the rule of law he said was at stake. What's your reaction?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: And, you know, we live in a kind of anti-oratory age.
LEMON: Right.
TOOBIN: You know, we people speak in conversational tones most of the time. It's rare to hear a speech that you just want to listen to for an hour.
[22:05:06]
MARK MCKINNON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Very old school.
TOOBIN: It is very old school. And Schiff didn't do it just once or even twice, but he did it three times over the course of these -- the presentation by that.
MCKINNON: Especially without notes.
TOOBIN: Well, with notes but not a text. He wasn't reading.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Some of it was contemporaneous. It's contemporaneous.
TOOBIN: And you know, he used a Robert Kennedy quote today which was unfamiliar to me, but he said that Robert Kennedy said moral courage is even rarer than physical courage.
MCKINNON: Yes, that was great.
TOOBIN: The ability to go against what your constituents want, what your peer group want.
MCKINNON: Go against your friends not just your enemy.
TOOBIN: Go against your friends. And he said also, you know, I don't have to worry about that because my constituents, they agree with me. I'm in a safe Democratic seat. But for the senators who, you know, are in political peril, I thought that was a very meaningful way to put the issue.
LEMON: As I'm sitting there watching, I said, I wonder if anybody in that room was embarrassed, and then I said, I don't know. Have we moved past that point, what do you think? MCKINNON: I think they left that at the door a long time ago, Don. You
know, the interesting thing was the sort of faux outrage about Adam Schiff's comments about head on a pike and you could see that that --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I mean, do we even want to go there?
MCKINNON: Well, no. But my point is that they were only doing that because they couldn't argue the facts or anything else that Adam Schiff said so they took this sort of straw man to fight that point.
LEMON: What did you think when you were sitting there watching this? I know this is, it may sound the first thing that came to my mind was Mr. Smith goes to Washington. I said, it wasn't quite that, but I thought it was brilliant.
JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: What happened to me, there were large gaps of time where I was so captivated, I looked at my watch and I said, my God, it's 4 o'clock. My god, it's 6 o'clock.
LEMON: Yes.
DEAN: And it just -- it went by like that because it just drew you in. I thought it was very powerful.
LEMON: Catherine?
CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think one way to see today's events, not just Schiff's closing comments as sort of a pep talk for Congress, right? Man up, woman up, reclaim what are your constitutional rights, stop putting up with essentially what is constitutional castration that you have been putting up with up until this point. Trump stealing your right to appropriate funds, or advising consent on appointments or regulate trade.
And in this case, have even the most basic oversight of the executive branch. What they -- what they were making the case for today was essentially reclaim your constitutional authority and show America that you are still willing to do your duty. You're not willing to let the executive branch essentially steal it from you.
TOOBIN: And that was essentially appropriate today because they were talking about article two, the second article of impeachment which is about obstruction of Congress.
LEMON: Yes.
TOOBIN: And the point he made towards the end, is that if you say that the president, it's OK for you to reject every document request --
RAMPELL: Right.
TOOBIN: -- and subpoena and every witness, that essentially says, the impeachment power does not exist anymore. Because they can't get evidence. LEMON: And that you are above the law.
TOOBIN: That's right.
LEMON: Standby, everyone. I want to bring in Senator Jeff Merkley, a Democrat from Oregon. Senator, I appreciate you joining us. Thank you so much.
SEN. JEFF MERKLEY (D-OR): You're welcome.
LEMON: I know it's been a very long day for you.
MERKLEY: A long day.
LEMON: Today was the impeachment managers' last chance to lay out their case. What is it like in that room? Adam Schiff appeal to a sense of duty, a sense of patriotism. Did you sense the dynamics changing at all? What did you see?
MERKLEY: Absolutely. I'll tell you, last night when Adam closed, he closed with the -- what America is about is doing right as compared to those Senate colonel's father's home country. And that had people riveted.
And tonight, when he started talking about moral courage and Kennedy and Lincoln and how this is a big deal. This is about whether or not, one, we're going to have full and fair trials in the Senate and, second of all, whether we're going to toss impeachment out the window and not have a usable instrument to hold the executive, the top executive, the president accountable as envisioned in the Constitution.
LEMON: Do you think there will be at least four Republicans who will show that courage?
MERKLEY: I do not think so. You know, as we saw this story unfold, Giuliani goes over to kind of do a little bit of work behind the scenes to get the support of the Ukrainian government to do these investigations. And they run into an obstacle. The U.S. ambassadors. They have to plot to get her out, but they have to involve the U.S. government to do that.
And just as they're getting her removed, there is this new election in Ukraine. And a reformer comes in and he puts up an obstacle and he is resistant and they got to figure out well, how to pressure this reformer. And that requires now the department of State and the Department of Defense and the National Security Council.
[22:09:59]
And suddenly, there is communications going to the highest level of our government. I think all those folks, all those cabinet secretaries, all the folks who worked with them are going to be breaking legs and twisting arms to make sure there are not 51 votes for documents and witnesses. LEMON: Wow. Senator, poll after poll shows the majority of Americans
want witnesses. They want more evidence in this trial. Why do you think Republicans are so willing to defy what their constituents want to go against public opinion here?
MERKLEY: They are worried because they know that the further you burrow into this. Think of it like a bee. It looks pretty good on the outside with a few holes into it. You start burrowing into it and you find out the whole thing is termite infested.
That's what they're worried about. And it will take time and it will do great damage to Republican reputation and to this Trump administration. They're like, no, let's seal up those little holes on the outside be done with this and say everything is fine.
LEMON: Well, Adam Schiff talked about how hard it is to vote against President Trump. What are Republicans afraid of? Are they afraid of that?
MERKLEY: Well, what they realize is that their base absolutely is lined up -- the majority of their base is lined up with President Trump. They bought the story, if you will, that this is just some partisan assault. That's nothing really big. It is part of one phone call. And, so, what could -- what is this all about? It's about nothing. And that story --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But what about the evidence? What about the oath that they took when this all started? What about their commitment and obligation to the Constitution? None of that matters?
MERKLEY: Well, I tell you that's very troubling for me because we've had these two oaths, one to the Constitution, which envisions the Senate, not as an appellate court that just looks at stuff from the House but as a place where the actual trial takes place. And so that's a big deal.
And then the oath for the trial itself to do impartial justice, and instead we're seeing this manipulation to make sure there is no justice. There is no full and fair trial, and it's deeply troubling.
LEMON: I want to ask you about Lev Parnas. We are learning that the attorney for -- for Rudy Giuliani -- excuse me -- Rudy Giuliani associate Lev Parnas turned over an audiotape for -- from 2018 to the House intel committee where Trump reportedly demands the firing of then U.S. Ambassador of Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch. Should the impeachment managers have played that tape tonight?
MERKLEY: Well, I don't know that they could have under the rules because they had it been brought into evidence in a way, they could have played it. I'm not sure. My -- what I heard about that tape was that, it was -- and you can correct me hear because I heard it on the way over here, was that essentially Trump saying, yes, let's get rid of her. That would surprise no one. I mean, that is what Trump did. He could
do that by recalling her. If the language was to take her out, that still could have just meant, I'll give the president credit on this that I don't think he would have been talking about physically --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: The reporting is that Trump said, get rid of her, and the voice appearing to have belong to Trump says in the recording, and this is according to ABC News, that he said get her out tomorrow. I don't care. Get her out tomorrow. Take her out. OK, do it.
MERKLEY: Well, that sounds -- that sounds -- yes, that sounds very threatening, it sure does. Especially with the earlier language that we have where we saw the dialogue in the text messages between Parnas and the Republican operative who was conspiring to track her.
So, I certainly hope and believe the president would not resort -- I can't imagine why he would do anything other than simply bring her back to Washington. But it indicates in this respect.
And I gather -- Secretary Mike Pompeo today was challenged on why didn't you defend your ambassador? I mean, you want to take on corruption? Is that our policy? Well, she was the anti-corruption ambassador, widely respected, ready to work with a new anti-corruption government in Ukraine, and apparently Pompeo did nothing to defend her.
LEMON: Senator Merkley, I know it's been a very long day, very long couple of days. So, thanks for staying late to be with us live. We appreciate it.
MERKLEY: Thank you, thank you so much. Take care.
LEMON: We've got a lot more to come on our breaking news. Our Manu Raju and Kaitlan Collins are standing by to bring us the latest from Capitol Hill and the White House. We'll be right back.
[22:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Here's our breaking news. House impeachment managers wrap up their case against President Trump, arguing that he abused the power of his office and obstructed Congress' investigation. The president's team beginning their response tomorrow morning. It starts at 10.
Let's go CNN's Manu Raju on Capitol Hill, Kaitlan Collins at the White House. Good evening to both. Manu, you first. You have new reporting about how the White House and the Republican leaders think this went. What do you know?
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. The Republicans feel very confident that they will be able to hold the Senate Republican conference in line and prevent more than three defections on the key vote that's expected next week to determine whether to subpoena witnesses and documents.
They are going to need for Democrats to succeed in pushing forward on subpoenas, particularly for John Bolton, the former national security adviser, the acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, and others as well as a range of documents. They are going to need 51 votes. They only have 47 in the chamber.
But talking to Republican sources both in the White House and in the Senate Republican leadership, there is a strong feeling right now that they have not lost more than three votes at the moment.
They do expect likely to lose Mitt Romney, the Utah senator, they do expect to lose Susan Collins, the Maine -- the Maine Republicans. But it's uncertain whether they'll lose Lisa Murkowski who has been critical of the Dems several times this week on various issues even as she herself has not said she made a decision yet on witnesses.
[22:19:59]
Now Romney as he left the chamber tonight declined to comment. Collins says she wants to hear from the defense team as well. But it's uncertain even where that fourth vote would come for.
And Don, I caught up with one potential defector Lamar Alexander earlier today. He said he is still weighing everything. He wants to look at all the evidence. Ultimately, he'll make a decision.
But he's also a close ally of Mitch McConnell, even though he's a retiring institutionalist, there is a strong belief up on Capitol Hill that she will -- he will probably end up siding with Republican leadership which is why there is confidence tonight that in the aftermath of the Democrat's presentation the Republican conference is mostly united. And that means the president could be acquitted as soon as next week, Don.
LEMON: OK. Just for you, no what's and giggles. What if there is 50/50 here?
RAJU: If it's 50/50 then it goes down. That's the expectation here. So that's why they would need four votes.
LEMON: Got it.
RAJU: Now there is a precedent, Don, back from the Johnson trial. The Andrew Johnson trial. That the chief justice could vote and break a tie, but that is not what we -- the Senate people rule people -- who are dealing with the Senate rules here, the parliamentarians expect would occur. They expect a 50/50 vote would essentially means that that motion would die.
LEMON: All right. To Kaitlan now. Hi, Kaitlan. Tomorrow morning is the start of the president's time. What can we expect to hear when the president's legal team presents their first day of arguments?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, in the beginning it's going to look a lot different than what you saw from those Democrats over the last few days where they essentially came close to using all of the 24 hours they had to make their arguments.
When the president's team gets started tomorrow, you are going to see Jay Sekulow, his outside attorney, and Pat Cipollone, the White House counsel on the floor making their arguments.
But you are only going to see them there for about three hours at the most they say. Because they are going to keep it shorter. They're just going to say what they said was a essentially, a trailer version of their arguments tomorrow. And then they say they are going to wait until Monday to make the bulk of their arguments.
Now a lot of that has to do with the president's tweet from this morning where he essentially said he views Saturday as the Death Valley of television ratings and he's worried that his day in court proverbially is coming on a chance when people are not going to be watching. That's why he wants them to wait until Monday.
The question of course is going to be how does that affect what the Sunday shows look like. Those are political shows the president watches very closely. So, they are going to send out one of his attorneys there on those Sunday shows, so someone is making the president's case of course in addition to potentially some Republicans.
LEMON: All about the show for him. Thank you, Manu. Thank you, Kaitlan. I appreciate it. Let's get back to our experts now.
It's interesting to hear Lisa Murkowski since she's been critical of the Democrats. Think about all the things the president -- this president has done and said that she's --
TOOBIN: Yes. It's like --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: It is mind boggling.
TOOBIN: Adam Schiff quotes a news report.
RAMPELL: Yes.
LEMON: My gosh.
TOOBIN: And, you know, this -- and she gets the vapors and has to go to her fainting couch.
RAMPELL: I wish she were as upset about Trump trying to compromise the integrity of our election system as she is about quoting a CBS story.
MCKINNON: I think the problem about the witnesses, I don't think they have the vote. I think Lamar Alexander verily will stick with Mitch McConnell --
LEMON: Yes.
MCKINNON: -- who is his best friend in the end. So, that's a short- term win for Republicans. But long-term what's going to happen as some of these witnesses will come forward in other venues and formats with potential evidence that wasn't heard now. And when the public hears that, they are going to hold those Republicans accountable for not bringing the witnesses in.
TOOBIN: And Chuck Schumer was on earlier, and he said, you know, what vindication do you get from a trial that is not a trial? You know, because obviously the state of the union is going to be next week, and the president is going to treat it as a victory lap and I was acquitted and I was successful and the impeachment was all wrong.
If you have -- if he is acquitted after a trial, the Republicans refuse to allow any new evidence in at all. How much of a vindication is that really?
LEMON: Yes. Well --
DEAN: It's going to do terrible things to our democracy as well because we have an unchecked president who, if he's re-elected will be uncheckable.
LEMON: Yes. I want to --
(CROSSTALK)
DEAN: That will change the whole dynamic.
LEMON: John, let me ask you this. Because House manager Lofgren pointed out how no less than 12 current or former government officials are prevented from testifying. And she pointed out a graphic of eight witnesses who defied Trump's orders and testified over and over. Again, we saw examples of Trump thumbing his nose at Congress.
DEAN: It mystifies me how he gets away with it. Their explain -- you know, this blanket immunity they're claiming on an OLC opinion is just not going to survive in any court. So, it's a bluff. And Congress has not been forceful before this in trying to call their bluff.
TOOBIN: Well, but they -- I mean, this is the problem, is that, you know, they -- Don McGahn, the former White House counsel tried to -- the judiciary committee tried to get him to testify.
(CROSSTALK)
DEAN: He was willing, apparently.
TOOBIN: In April.
DEAN: If he got a subpoena.
[22:24:59]
TOOBIN: In April. They won in the district court in December, and now it's on appeal in the D.C. circuit. That's what it means to go to court.
DEAN: Well, Zoe --
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: It's too slow.
DEAN: Zoe Lofgren had a chart showing the three cases that the Congress has brought and how long they take. They take many, many years. Harriet Miers to Don McGahn.
TOOBIN: Right.
DEAN: And we're talking three to four to five years.
LEMON: All right. Standby everyone. More on our breaking news. House Democrats wrapping up their arguments for impeaching President Trump. I'm going to get some perspective from someone who cover the two other impeachment proceedings in modern history. Sam Donaldson is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: House Democrats wrapping up their case against President Trump with what they say is overwhelming evidence that he is guilty of abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. They argue he should be removed from office. The president's defense team will take its turn beginning tomorrow morning, it starts at 10 a.m.
Let's discuss with veteran TV journalist, Mr. Sam Donaldson. Quite a pleasure to have you here, sir. Thank you so much. Democrats wrapped up their case --
(CROSSTALK)
[22:30:01]
SAM DONALDSON, FORMER ANCHOR AND REPORTER, NBC NEWS: Glad to be here.
LEMON: -- with Adam Schiff giving a very emotional closing. What do you think? How did they do? How did he do?
SAM DONALDSON, FORMER ANCHOR AND REPORTER, ABC NEWS: I think the closing was brilliant, I mean, constructed just right. But the presentation, I mean, Ronald Reagan once said, you couldn't be president without having been an actor. I don't think Adam Schiff whose a prosecutor was ever an actor. But he was tonight in a sense of saying to an audience and hoping that people out there who haven't made up their mind on how they are going to vote next November. They don't know much about this case, but they were paying some attention. Hoping they would listen and say, yeah, I'm going to look at this, because I think this president may be corrupt. Maybe.
LEMON: You know, you worked for ABC, you work for a big network for a long time.
DONALDSON: Huge.
LEMON: They didn't run the entire -- DONALDSON: Huge.
LEMON: They didn't run in prime time. Do you think they should have run it? I'm not just picking, I'm talking about all the networks.
DONALDSON: You mean what we're doing now? Yes, of course. But those days are past because we're in a capitalist society. You have to make some money. We had three networks then. When John Dean was testifying and others before the Watergate committee, the three networks decided at every other day one of them would do it live all the way and the others would make some money. Well, you can't do that today. I'll never forget being up there with John and others testified.
(CROSSTALK)
JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: All three covered when I was on it.
LEMON: John Dean is here.
(LAUGHTER)
DONALDSON: Well, you were special. You asked me what's the difference between the Nixon time and this time? Well, both men didn't want a fair and free election. They wanted a little edge, boarding on the criminality, not just on dirty tricks. Nixon had a group of people who turned out to be burglars looking for some dirt. The Democratic National Committee headquarters.
But Trump, Trump in trying to put the arm in a sovereign country to do his dirty work and dig up false information about one of his opponents has risked this nation's reputation around the world. So, you ask me, which one was the greatest criminal? It's not equivalent. It's Donald Trump.
LEMON: You said stay tuned on whether there will be four Republicans to vote for witnesses. You have seen our reporting. It doesn't look likely from the reporting, but you think it's more likely now?
DONALDSON: Well, it's more likely in the sense of the emotional end and the presentation. The House managers were all very good. They had the facts on their side. Some of them were better than others in the presentation, but they had the facts and they presented the facts. But the Republicans are in lock step. They have made their deal with the devil. They can't let loose of him because their careers, they think.
Think of their reputations, though, in history. What do they gain? The re-election maybe in a state that's red? No. They lose their reputation as people with sense, sovereignty and loyalty of the constitution, I think. But then again, I'm just one voter.
LEMON: It's interesting because you think about the last time we had an impeachment and then the one before that that didn't happen because the president resigned. It's like a reunion here. You know, you work with John Dean. You worked with Jeffrey Toobin.
DONALDSON: Right. LEMON: And then you got Mark Mckinnon here, all the guys I'm on the
set with except for Catherine Rampell. You know them, and you have worked with them multiple times.
DONALDSON: Remember, guys, I'm 86. I'm the old guy, el hefe as we say in the southwest. Patron. Give me some respect.
LEMON: Tell us this, though, Sam, the truth always comes out. New evidence came out today. There could be new evidence in Bolton's book. The Republicans have to worry about defending themselves to the American people as more and more evidence is revealed over time.
DONALDSON: I think the Republicans who made this pact with the devil are not thinking about the whole American people, they're thinking about their constituencies in their states and how to get re-elected. And their -- I think some of them, certainly in the heart of hearts would rather not be with Donald J. Trump, but he's there. He's there guy and they decided to sign on.
Yes, we had seven in the House during the Nixon time. And in Bill Clinton's impeachment in article one, his opponents couldn't even get a majority in the Senate, let alone two-thirds, 10 Republicans joined the Democrats in saying, no. Where are those days? We talk about the loss of bipartisanship. No, we lost of our honor. We lost of the honor of people who know better. And if we let them prevail, the country is in dire shapes, but I don't think they will.
LEMON: Yes.
DONALDSON: The majority in this country are not for Donald J. Trump. I'm not saying me. I'm just saying the polls. I'm saying -- every indication we have, 200,000 votes Barack Obama got in the Philadelphia suburbs over his both dependents -- opponents honorable men, John McCain and Mitt Romney. She didn't get any. Now they didn't vote for Trump. They stayed home. I mean, our guy isn't on the ballot this year and hey, Trump is going to lose anyway. I mean, why aren't you -- this time, they're coming out, Mr. Trump. They're coming out. They are not going to win Pennsylvania this time.
LEMON: Sam, thank you and everybody on the set, say thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Sam!
LEMON: Come visit us. Come visit us in New York.
DONALDSON: I'm the senior guy by virtue of age. Treat me like the Japanese treat their elders.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have always treated you that way.
LEMON: Thank you, sir. We will see you soon.
DONALDSON: Oh, my. Thanks, Don. LEMON: Absolutely. The president's attorneys set to present their
defense just hours from now. We are going to tell you what to expect. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:40:00]
LEMON: Tonight House Democrats finishing up their three days of opening arguments in the impeachment trial of President Trump. Next the president's legal team takes its turn beginning tomorrow morning at 10:00. Back with me Mark Mckinnon, John Dean, Jeffrey Toobin and Catherine Rampell. Mr. Toobin, Adam Schiff trying to -- to prebutal the Republican's argument. You know what the arguments will be. Is a prebutal you think work?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I thought it was the smartest thing you could have done, because they are going to have the stage to themselves for the next few days, and their arguments are not going to be surprises. And I thought Schiff did a very good job. They are going to say, there is no such thing as a high crime and misdemeanor that isn't an actual criminal offense. They are going to say that the president was really concerned about corruption in general, not just about the Bidens. They are going to say that he was concerned about burden sharing, that other countries weren't stepping up to give Ukraine money the way we were. Schiff did a very good job, I thought, of refuting those arguments in advance. We'll see if anybody remembers that when they start --
LEMON: But the problem with that is that none of that was discussed before any of that, in any of the phone calls, in any of the --
TOOBIN: Right, right.
LEMON: None of that was discussed.
TOOBIN: And he change -- when he got caught, he gave Ukraine the money without checking through many other -- what any other country was doing.
LEMON: Right.
TOOBIN: There is no evidence that he was concerned about corruption -- any kind of corruption except trying to find out what went on with the Bidens.
MARK MCKINNON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Jeffrey, let me ask you a question. I think on the abuse of power that they laid out substantial evidence on a great case. On the second article, though, won't the Republicans say and have some merit in the case to say, that you didn't pursue relief through the courts.
TOOBIN: Well, that's right. And I think that will be their most effective argument, that this is a legal dispute.
LEMON: Right. TOOBIN: Between the president and the Congress and the appropriate
form for that is the courts. Now, the response to that argument is presidents have often contested Congress's power over a single subpoena or a single document request. But the idea that you can go to Congress and say, you're getting no documents. You are getting no witnesses. That is a level of lack of cooperation that goes beyond what you have to do to go to the courts.
CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: But isn't the other issue that the government attorney said elsewhere argued that this cannot be adjudicated by the courts? That there's some contradiction between what they're arguing in the context of the impeachment hearings and what they've actually argued.
DEAN: You can't do it in a timely fashion.
RAMPELL: In a legal sense.
TOOBIN: Well, there is the timing issue, but also the point that once they have gone to court they -- the Congress -- the administration has argued that it is inappropriate to have it in court.
RAMPELL: Right.
DEAN: Right.
TOOBIN: So basically the administration says heads I win, tails you lose. And that's -- but that -- that argument that you should go to the courts is better than most of their arguments.
LEMON: Let's talk about the one thing that will come up, and that's going to be very frustrating to most of the people in this country, except for the conspiracy theorists and the people over at the White House. And that is what Jay Sekulow, you know, who bring up the president's lawyer and that going to be Burisma and Biden which really has nothing to do with this and everything to do with this because that conspiracy theory is what got us here.
DEAN: I thought the prebutal on that was very good. Schiff told that was coming. They already addressed within their arguments about how irrelevant it really is and what it will really mean when it comes up and how they're deflecting. It is a shiny object I don't think will attract the same kind of attention. I think what Trump would like his lawyers to do is make the kind of case in the trial, which is a protected forum where they really can't defame anybody in sort of just slime the Bidens.
MCKINNON: But, Don, I will say you mentioned the poll about people that support witnesses, including Republicans. I assure you both Republicans include Biden.
LEMON: I think when you try to explain to people that they got rid of and most of the leaders of the western world wanted to get rid of the prosecutor who was not prosecuting --
MCKINNON: Shokin. LEMON: -- Shokin -- who is not prosecuting any cases and bring in
people, the person who had led let the Burisma case drop --
MCKINNON: The great irony --
LEMON: -- they don't understand. They want to bring someone in who would --
MCKINNON: Tougher.
LEMON: Who was tougher, who would begin prosecution. It boggles the mind and they start scratching their head and they still don't get it.
RAMPELL: That's the level of complication. I think the American public has not really got an appreciation for it.
LEMON: I got to go.
MCKINNON: All right.
LEMON: Thank you all. The new season of Mark McKinnon's show The Circus, premiers Sunday at 8:00 on ShowTime. Make sure you watch it.
[22:45:05]
New evidence tonight as Democrats wrap up their case against President Trump, evidence that Lev Parnas' attorney says is a critical importance to the impeachment trial. You are going to hear the tape. We have got it. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So the House Intel Committee is now in possession of an audio tape that appears to be the voice of President Trump. President Trump is at a dinner with Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman in 2018. This voice that appears to be the president is demanding the firing of Marie Yovanovitch, then U.S. Ambassador to the Ukraine, that's according to an attorney for Lev Parnas, the indicted associate of Rudy Giuliani who has been cooperating with House Congressional investigations. So, ABC News has released the audio. Let's play that now. Listen to it.
[22:50:14]
(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)
LEV PARNAS, INDICTED GIULIANI'S ASSOCIATE: The biggest problem, though, I think where we need to start, we've got to get rid of the ambassador. She's still left over from the Clinton administration.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What, the ambassador of the Ukraine? (BEEP)
PARNAS: She's basically walk around telling everybody wait he's going to get impeached, just wait.
TRUMP: Get rid of her. Get her out tomorrow. I don't care. Get her out tomorrow. Take her out. OK? Do it.
(END VOICE CLIP)
LEMON: OK. Again, so that voice on there appears to be the voice of the president, apparently this is at a dinner. He is with Lev Parnas, and also with Victor Fruman. So, we're going to play it for you again, so you can listen, look at the words on the screen and then listen to the voice. Here it is.
(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)
PARNAS: The biggest problem, though, I think where we need to start is, we've got to get rid of the ambassador. She's still left over from the Clinton administration.
TRUMP: What, the ambassador of the Ukraine? (BEEP)
PARNAS: She's basically walk around telling everybody wait he's going to get impeached, just wait.
TRUMP: Get rid of her. Get her out tomorrow. I don't care. Get her out tomorrow. Take her out. OK? Do it.
(END VOICE CLIP)
LEMON: OK, so let's bring in now CNN's senior reporter Vicki Ward, along with Max Boot and Alice Stewart. Again this is just released, ABC just releasing this just a short time ago and you're hearing it for the first time here on CNN. Vicki, there it is, sounds like the president, explain this tape and what's happening here.
VICKI WARD, AUTHOR AND INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: So this, according to the attorney for Lev Parnas, is a recording made by -- actually by Igor Fruman, the other Ukraine born indicted associate of Rudy Giuliani, at a fundraising dinner in Washington in April of 2018, only 15 people or so in the room, subject of Ukraine comes up and you can hear Lev Parnas' voice, or what sounds to be Lev Parnas' voice talking about Ambassador Yovanovitch saying that she wants to get -- that she thinks President Trump will be impeached and you hear the president, what appears to be President Trump say get rid of her.
LEMON: Yeah, it says here, get rid of her. Then it says get her out tomorrow. I don't care. Get her out tomorrow. Take her out. OK. So do it. And that's -- that is, according to ABC News, but then you can hear it for -- who is currently in possession of this tape besides the House Intel Committee?
WARD: So the narrative goes like this. Igor Fruman recorded the conversation at the dinner. Lev Parnas has talked about the tape recording from memory according to his lawyer.
LEMON: OK.
WARD: These past weeks. This afternoon Lev Parnas found his own recording of --
LEMON: On his iCloud.
WARD: On his iCloud. Joe Bondi, his attorney, quickly got it to Congress, to the House Intelligence Committee. And now they have to figure out what to do with it.
LEMON: OK. So -- and ABC -- apparently someone gave it to ABC News. ABC News has copy?
WARD: Yes. Joe Bondi, Lev Parnas' lawyer has been very clear to say that he has no idea how ABC (inaudible) He's been very clear today on the record, he does not believe it comes from him or from Lev Parnas.
LEMON: OK. So I'm going to get you guys in, we have a very short time left on the air here. But what do you think, you know, we've heard the president talk like this and apparently the president doesn't know -- he said, I don't know Parnas, but there he is, 15 people in the room, talking to them.
MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, COUNCIL FOR FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, it's striking to me, Don, because earlier in the show you were highlighting a reporting that Senate Republican are leaning against calling witnesses in the impeachment trial, that momentum it seems to be going in the other direction and now we're getting more information from somebody who should be a witness, somebody who is close to Trump and who was involved in this whole crazy scheme to extort Ukraine. And it seems what we're seeing now is that, you know, Parnas has not just been blowing smoke. I mean, he's made a lot of claims and people legitimately are skeptical. Is he telling the truth or not?
Well, Lordy, there are tapes now. There's a tape of an hour and a half, so, there is something to substantiate his tape -- to substantiate his evidence and it would be truly a miscarriage of justice if the Senate shows no interest in what he has to say and what the other witnesses have to say, because there's more information that's going to come out, whether they hear it or not, it's just a question of are they going to hear it before they acquit him or not.
LEMON: I want to get this on. Trump was asked about this ABC report on Fox News earlier today. let's hear what he had to say, Alice. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I wouldn't have been saying that. I probably would have said if it was Rudy there or somebody. But I make no bones about it. I want to have ambassadors, I have every right. I want ambassadors that are chosen by me. I have a right to hire and fire ambassadors, and that's a very important thing.
[22:55:13]
But even if you look at the conversation I had with the president, he didn't like her, because in there he didn't like her. So, I don't know. I didn't hear this. But if they had it, I will tell you right now, I feel strongly that this is somebody that shouldn't be with us. She wasn't popular even in the country. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: This is before the tape was released, Alice, what do you think.
ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, ambassadors serve at the pleasure of the president and when you go around trash talking your boss that's an occupational hazard and the president is right, he has to --
(CROSSTALK)
BOOT: Wait. There's no evidence she did that, there's no evidence that she did that, they were making that up.
STEWART: But the reality is --
BOOT: That's an unsubstantiated charge that they presented to Trump.
STEWART: She's going around saying critical things about the president he has every right to get rid of her in which he exactly what he did.
BOOT: OK, but she denied saying that, there's no evidence she actually did that. This seems to be a plot by Rudy and his gang to get rid of her by trash talking her and saying things that she didn't actually say.
LEMON: OK. I've got to go. thank you all, I appreciate it. Thanks for watching everyone, our live coverage, special coverage of the impeachment trial of President Trump continues with Anderson Cooper.
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