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Don Lemon Tonight

Trump's Legal Team Presents Their Counterargument; John Bolton Said He Knew Everything About The Ukraine Scandal; NYT: Bolton Draft Manuscript Says Trump Tied Ukraine Aid Freeze To Political Investigations; Ken Starr: Like War, Impeachment Is Hell. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired January 27, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: I'm saying that if it works for one, it works for all.

All right. Thank you very much for watching us. "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon starts right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Well, if they're using their argument maybe they should be called as witnesses too.

CUOMO: Call them all.

LEMON: I'm just saying, I'm like, Joe Biden. Today I was watching and I was thinking, wait, who's on trial here? Is it Joe Biden and Barack Obama? Or is it Donald Trump?

CUOMO: Did you hear what Senator Joni Ernst said from Iowa? A Republican.

LEMON: No. What did she say?

CUOMO: She said, boy, this stuff about Joe Biden that came up in this trial as if it was organic that it came out. This could hurt him in Iowa. Yes. No kidding. Why do you think they're bringing it up? Why do you think they want him sitting in the witness chair?

LEMON: Come on. Really? She's got to be smarter than that, huh.

CUOMO: Why do you think the president did all this. It's always been about Biden.

LEMON: Boy. All right. I've got a lot to get to. This is just nuts watching today. My mom actually called me and said wait a minute, I was wondering, she said the same thing. Who was on trial here? She thought she had gone back to like, 2012 or something.

CUOMO: She owes me and toffee.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: She does. LEMON: She does, yes.

CUOMO: She said she was going to bring some she sends them up. It never happened.

LEMON: Yes, I got some -- I got some frozen. Some gum and some toffee. I got to run though. I got a big show. Nice show.

CUOMO: I'll be watching.

LEMON: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar I love that interview. Thank you, sir.

CUOMO: Good night.

LEMON: See you next time.

This CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Team Trump wrapping up day two, day two of their defense of the president after ignoring this bomb shell all day. Alan Dershowitz trying to totally dismiss what could be the biggest piece of evidence in the president's impeachment trial. You know what I'm referring to, of course. John Bolton's firsthand account. In a draft of his upcoming book.

Writing that President Trump explicitly told him back in August that he was with holding nearly $400 million in military aid until Ukraine helped him with investigations into Joe Biden and his son.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, TRUMP IMPEACHMENT ATTORNEY: If a president, any president were to have done what the Times reported about the content of the Bolton manuscript. That would not constitute an impeachable offense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What? So now after five days of arguments, Dershowitz defense is even if the president did it, it's not impeachable. That's where we are now. The fact is, unless four Republicans vote with Democrats to allow witnesses, the senators won't hear Bolton's testimony under oath.

Every one of those senators along with the rest of us knows what Bolton said. They all know. We all know. They can't unhear it. And the president defenders can't keep claiming there are no direct witnesses.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY SEKULOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: Not a single witness testified that the president himself said that there was any connection between any investigation and security assistance. A presidential meeting or anything else.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: I shouldn't say they can't be claiming. They will keep

claiming. But they shouldn't keep claiming because there are direct witnesses, at least who keep saying here I am, over here. John Bolton. The fact is, that's exactly what John Bolton says. That he's a direct witness and what Sekulow just said there.

So, a firsthand witness is willing to testify about what the president told him. And the president himself, well he claims he never said anything to Bolton and he claims he hasn't seen the manuscript.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I haven't seen a manuscript. But I can tell you nothing was ever said to John Bolton. But I have not seen a manuscript. I guess he's writing a book. I haven't seen it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He says he hasn't seen the manuscript but he has a one-word response to reporters trying to ask him about it despite White House staffers best efforts to drown out their questions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about the allegations in the Bolton manuscript, Mr. President?

TRUMP: False.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: False. If senators don't call witnesses at this point it's because they really don't want to hear what those witnesses have to say. It's la, la, la, la, la, la. Witnesses like John Bolton.

But let's remember, a whole lot of Americans do. Nearly seven in ten, by the way. Seven in 10 Americans want the Senate trial to include testimony from new witnesses. Witnesses like John Bolton.

Lots to discuss. Max Boot, John Dean, Laura Coates, Scott Jennings. CNN fact checker Daniel Dale. I guess we didn't have enough room for him at the table because you guys are hogging it up.

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Look, I'm over here.

[22:05:00]

LEMON: Good evening, one and all. John, you first. This bomb shell report from the New York Times out. They've released even more tonight in the Times. How big of a blow of, if any, to Trump's team because they're just saying nothing to see, move along. This does not exist.

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: The parallel to me, is this is not unlike the so-called smoking gun. The hard evidence that everybody had rumored that Nixon knew about but didn't really confirm until the transcript of his conversation established without a doubt that he did.

Here we have the same thing. It's been the rumored conversations with Bolton that are very damaging. And now we have a manuscript that is hearsay. But obviously could lead us to the witness who could make it direct testimony.

LEMON: It was interesting to hear, Laura, Jay Sekulow say this. There's not a single link that security link that leaks this to the president's -- that leaks it too with the investigations into his rivals. How can he say that with a straight face?

COATES: He did. And I don't how he was able to do so. I mean, it was like the giant elephant sat in the center of the room. And I wish the cameras could have turned on the senators who are watching. Because I was hoping to figure out if they were as incredulous as everyone else who would saw the toothpaste get out of the tube and wondering how could go back in.

I mean, you have somebody with this -- it's an unpublished manuscript, that's true. But a -- saying necessarily that there is a connection. And they actually heard it from the Merville horse's mouth. And to ignore that it was such an odd thing. I'd rather them confront it and be dismissive at it which would be a more keen strategy than to just say well, what? I mean, we didn't hear anything about Bolton really in earnest until Alan Dershowitz. And that was very late in the day at the very --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Almost eight hours or so.

COATES: Eight hours in. That's when you hear and the story broke yesterday? And no one had any chance to scramble to get even a comprehensive response to even dismiss it? I was shocked.

LEMON: Yes. Let's bring Daniel Dale and he's our fact checker here. So, Daniel, let's talk some facts here what we heard from Trump's defense team. Pam Bondi attacked Biden and Burisma. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, FMR. ATTORNEY GENERAL, FLORIDA: Years later now, former Vice President Biden publicly details what we know happened. His threat to withhold more than a billion dollars in loan guarantees unless Shokin was fired. Here's the vice president.

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I said I'm not going to -- we're not going to give you the billion dollars. I said, you have no authority, you're not the president. The president said I said call him. I said, you're not getting the billion dollars. I said you're not getting the billion. I'm going to be leaving here and I think it was what, six hours. I look and I said, we're leaving in six hours.

If the prosecutor is not fired, you're not getting the money. Son of a bitch. He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time. BONDI: What he didn't say on that video, according to the New York

Times, this was the prosecutor investigating Burisma.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Daniel, she left out some key details.

DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: She left out a lot, Don. I'll give you the two main things. Number one there is no good evidence that this prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, was actually investigating the company on which Hunter Biden sat on the board, Burisma, at the time Joe Biden applied this pressure.

Shokin's former deputy, Vitaly Kasko, has said publicly that the investigation had been allowed to go dormant by this time. And that's also the view of Ukrainian anticorruption activist.

Number two, Biden was acting in accordance with an international and U.S. diplomatic consensus that Shokin was either corrupt, ineffective or somewhere in between. The international consensus was that companies like Burisma would have a greater chance of being investigated, brought to any kind of justice under a different prosecutor than under this one. So, the suggestion that Biden was acting to help his son here is simply doesn't hold water.

LEMON: There are also Republican senators who had also demanded changes in the prosecutor general's office led by Shokin. And it was a bipartisan letter sent in 2016. Republican Senators Rob Portman, Mark Kirk, and also Ron Johnson joined Democratic colleagues in calling on then Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko to press ahead with urgent reform to the prosecutor general's office and judiciary.

So, the senators who were actually sitting in the chamber knows that Pam Bondi and others are lying about this and no one is saying anything.

Max, let's bring you in here. There's a fair criticism for Hunter Biden, even admitted poor judgment about this. But the reality is there's no evidence of wrongdoing by Joe Biden or Hunter Biden. Red meat for the president's base, though.

MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Sure. It's a distraction from the case against President Trump which is well proven and even well proven the day than it was a couple of days before the Bolton revelation. Of course, there is, Don, a fundamental, incoherence and ill logic to the president's argument.

Because what they are basically saying is well, you know, Trump didn't do it, but if he did it, it was perfect. If Biden did the same thing it was awful. It doesn't make a lot of sense. And I would say that --

(CROSSTALK)

[22:10:02]

LEMON: A lot of sense? It doesn't mean any sense. BOOT: Or any sense. It doesn't make any sense. But it's just

basically meant to distract and to suggest that there is some kind of grand conspiracy by the Bidens and of course there's also the other conspiracy involving CrowdStrike and the server. It's basically a lot of nonsense which is used to deflect attention away from the clear evidence that Trump in fact was extorting Ukraine for political gain. And now John Bolton can verify that.

It's really striking to me, Don, that for days and days and days we've heard Republicans in the Senate give the same line, which is, everything they're hearing is it's old -- it's old news, it's boring. Nothing new. Well, in fact that applies more today to what the president's lawyer said than what the Democratic House managers said last week.

Because in fact, today there was news and the president lawyers didn't even deal with it. Instead, they were retailing this discredited old conspiracy theories that have been investigated time and again and have found to be groundless along with these -- to put it kindly, novel constitutional arguments from the likes of Alan Dershowitz and Ken Starr that very few law professors take seriously.

LEMON: Yes. Scott, let's bring you in. Should they have taken the Bolton -- the Bolton news today head on? Are we surprised they didn't?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I was surprised that it got mentioned late in the day. I was not surprised that it didn't make up the bulk of their presentation. Obviously, they've been working on it for quite some time.

I think as a strategic matter though, what they did laid out today is actually more relevant to the Senate Republicans. And it has to do with whether -- even if you accept, as Dershowitz said, everything that we've been told or everything you've hear, does this rise to the level of throwing a president out, as number one.

And number two, if you don't believe it does, what should the Congress have done? And that's where Ken Starr's discussion today well, Congress could have conducted oversight the way it conducts on so many other matters.

I think you're going to hear that Ken Starr piece used when Republicans ultimately vote to acquit the president. They're going to say this was a matter built for oversight not built for impeachment.

So, I think -- I think the political strategic calculation remains the same for the Senate Republican leadership, Mitch McConnell in this particular case. And that is, I didn't hear anything either from Bolton's revelations or anything else that tells me that 20 votes exist to convict the president out of my conference. Therefore, should we go ahead and do it today or should we have this hang over our heads for the next several weeks or months.

LEMON: But should they have taken it on today do you think?

JENNINGS: Yes. I think they should have mentioned it and they did. I was a little surprised that it came late. But I don't think it should have make up the bulk of their presentation.

LEMON: John, I want you to listen to something that we heard. This is from Alan Dershowitz and he said that e studied whether impeachment requires a crime. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DERSHOWITZ: And it now concluded that the framers did intend to limit the criteria for impeachment to criminal type acts akin to treason, bribery and they certainly did not intend to extend it to vague and open ended and non-criminal accusations such as abuse of power and obstruction of Congress.

I published this academic conclusion well before I was asked to present the arguments to the Senate in this case. My switch in attitude purely academic and purely non-partisan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. That's 2020 version of Alan Dershowitz. This was before his upgrade in 1998.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DERSHOWITZ: Certainly, it doesn't have to be a crime. If you have somebody who completely corrupts the office of president and who abuses trust and who poses great danger to our liberty you don't need a technical crime.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What happened, John?

DEAN: It's amazing when you lose your hair what happens. He clearly says he's been studying. And he's changed his mind. He's 180 degrees away from where he was.

I talked to Michael Gerhardt who is CNN's expert on this and probably the foremost impeachment expert in the country. He sifted through this. I asked him what he thought of Alan's argument. He said substantively it was really weak. And he's looked at all these documents multiple times. I've only skimmed them years ago. So, it was a weak argument.

LEMON: Yes. Daniel, I want to bring you back. I want to do some more fact checking. Let's check out this claim. It's from Jane Raskin on the president's attorney Rudy Giuliani. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANE RASKIN, TRUMP IMPEACHMENT ATTORNEY: In this trial in this moment, Mr. Giuliani is just a minor player. That shiny object designed to distract you. Senators, I urge you most respectfully do not be distracted.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: Giuliani is a minor player. Laughable?

DALE: I think it's pretty laughable. I mean, all of the evidence all of the testimony, Don, is that Rudy Giuliani was a central, if not the central player in President Donald Trump's dealings with Ukraine. He was meeting with, communicating with aides to Ukrainian President Zelensky. His name was mentioned six times in that rough transcript of the July call.

[22:14:59]

We had testimony that diplomats who want to talk to Trump about Ukraine were told go talk to Rudy about this. We had testimony from Volker and Sondland that they thought that Giuliani was the person who communicated to the Ukrainians Trump's desire for the Ukrainians to announce this controversial investigation into the Biden's into the Democrats.

So, the idea that he is some, you know, shiny bubble here not worth talking about I think is dubious to say the least.

LEMON: Laura, let's -- can we talk about quickly the defenses from Trump's legal team. We heard and it says, no quid pro quo. No eyewitness. Democrats just don't like Trump policy. You head Starr say that it is the age of impeachment. They focuses -- they focus on Hunter Biden and Burisma. Obama did it too. And also, you don't need a crime to impeach.

I mean, there are a lot of inaccuracies a lot of lies. Were any of these arguments effective? Or was it about an audience of one? Because I kept -- I kept asking myself when are they going to talk about evidence and --

COATES: Well, it's a lot of mistruths and a lot of sound bites though that are not to perhaps persuade those who were already reluctant to come and actually say we want witnesses, we want actually to have a full flash out trial. To have enough rope to say, you know what? I can hang on to this and say we don't have to decide this president needs to be removed from office.

Those were the sound bites are enough for some people to say I get a pass here. I've done just enough. But it's not accurate. It's not a fair trial. It's not what impeachment was supposed to be. Not what the Senate envisioned at all.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, all. Stick around. Daniel Dale, thank you. We'll see you a little bit later on. Everyone else, you're going to stay here. We've got a lot more to come on team Trump's defense for the president tonight amid the Bolton revelations. Next, CNN's Phil Mattingly on Capitol Hill. Kaitlan Collins at the White House.

[22:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Team Trump wrapping up day two of its impeachment defense of the president. That with revelations from a draft of the upcoming book from John Bolton. The former national security adviser writing that the president explicitly told him in August he was withholding nearly $400 million in military aid until Ukraine helped him with investigations into Joe Biden and his son. And that's not all that Bolton says.

Here with more, CNN's Phil Mattingly on Capitol Hill, Kaitlan Collins at the White House working overtime both of them. Good evening. Kaitlan, you first. We're getting more information tonight from Bolton's unpublished manuscript. But I mean, if you are paying attention today you would think nothing happened, right, to the Senate floor at least.

According to the New York Times Bolton was concerned that Trump did favors for leaders of China and Turkey. What do you know about this? Tell us about it.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So, this is a story that's only going to fuel more questions about the president's conduct on the world stage.

And according to what the New York Times is reporting also in this manuscript that hasn't been published yet, Bolton writes that he essentially had concerns that the president was effectively granting personal favors to autocrats around the world and he shared those concerns he writes with, according to the New York Times with the Attorney General Bill Barr, who, in turn said he also had concerns about that and was worried that the president was essentially signaling to leaders in Turkey and in China that he had undue influence over these investigations that were happening being conducted by the Justice Department. One into a Chinese telecon company, another into a state-owned bank in Turkey.

And so essentially, if John Bolton is writing that it wasn't just that he had these concerns but other senior officials as well who are in charge of the Justice Department and play a major role in national security.

Of course, these are only likely going to fuel more questions that we experienced today that these Republican senators were facing today over the president's conduct in how he behaves himself essentially when it comes to interacting with other world leaders.

LEMON: Phil, bring us the latest on the vote for witnesses. Is Bolton -- is the Bolton news making any Republicans change their mind at all?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's certainly making them stop and think. Look, Don, track back to this morning. The Republican conference was very unsettled. They were blindsided by the revelations. Even Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell had no idea the manuscript had been submitted to the White House. His office put out a very terse one-sentence statement saying he did not have advance knowledge which is a little bit of a shot at the White House.

I think when you know how their operation usually works. Because here's the reality. Behind the scenes I'm told several Republican senators called the White House last night and this morning to express frustration. Essentially saying look, we're fighting for you guys on the ground floor right now during this trial. You have to let us know when things are happening that we should be

aware of.

Here's kind of the bottom line on witnesses as it stands right now. Senators Mitt Romney and Susan Collins made very clear that they believe the Bolton revelations strengthen their case for witnesses. They're almost assured to vote yes. But Democrats need four Republicans to come over to there in order to move forward to consider subpoenas for witnesses and documents. And they don't have them at the moment.

I think one of the most interesting things that happened was not on the Senate floor with the White House presentations today. It was before the Senate even gaveled into session. There was a closed-door lunch with Senate Republicans where I'm told McConnell basically told this conference take a deep breath. Don't make any rash decisions at this point in time about witnesses. Listen to the White House presentation. Then you'll have an opportunity to ask questions.

The reality is this, McConnell and the White House do not want witnesses at this point in time. They don't want to elongate the trial. They don't want to set precedents that perhaps they'll regret later. And they are holding on to that position. And at this point in time, Republicans haven't broken ranks in mass. I think the big question right now, Don, is can they keep them together over the course of the next couple of days particularly as it seems like new revelations come out on a daily basis.

LEMON: Yes. Well, listen, these things -- there's always new revelations. And we have seen it, seen it over the last couple days. Something else will come out. Trust me. Watch and wait.

Thank you both. You have your work cut out for you. I appreciate it. Back with me now Max Boot, John Dean, Laura Coates, and Scott Jennings. That's the issue. And I'm sure you guys -- I have a weird feeling. Every day, every time, you know, it seems like every day in this impeachment thing there has been something new, something new, something new.

[22:25:05]

And everyone said well, why Nancy Pelosi holding onto these articles. Maybe she knew something. I don't know. Maybe she knew something that we didn't know, that the American people didn't know. She said that, you know, so he's going to self-impeach or whatever. I don't know. But it seems like there's some bomb shell every single day with this. And you know, we didn't know -- we knew about the Bolton book but we didn't know about the quotes, right? I mean --

DEAN: You know, the reason it came up late in the day today with Alan Dershowitz, we know from his interview with CNN he wasn't talking to anybody else in the White House counsel's office. He didn't get the memo. You weren't supposed to talk about it.

LEMON: Yes.

DEAN: So, he just did what a good defense lawyer would do, is raise the very negative issue.

LEMON: So, I just have this odd feeling that I don't know if it's going to happen or not that there will be witnesses when it comes to the time for witnesses. I think this may go on a little bit longer. I could be wrong but I have just a feeling.

I want to read from you. This is from the New York Times lead story tonight and it's from the Bolton book. And here it says, "John R. Bolton, the former national security adviser privately told the Attorney General William P. Barr last year that he had concerns that President Trump was effectively granting personal favors to the autocratic leaders of Turkey and China according to an unpublished manuscript by Mr. Bolton.

Mr. Barr responded by pointing to a pair of Justice Department investigations of companies in those countries and said he was worried that Mr. Trump had created the appearance that he had undue influence over what would typically be independent inquiries according to the manuscript.

Backing up his point, Mr. Barr mentioned conversations that Mr. Trump had with the leaders, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Turkey -- of Turkey, excuse me, and President Xi Jinping of China."

So, I mean, Scott, the president's former national security adviser reporting that he and the president's attorney general thought that President Trump was being too favorable to autocrats. What do you think?

JENNINGS: Well, I mean, these are -- these are explosive sort of political statements. And they're obviously going to come out in the book and it will be taken into account by the voters. I suspect -- we haven't heard from Mr. Barr yet but I suspect he's going to push back on the characterization of this. And so, you're going to have, you know, one former official saying one thing and another saying.

I think in the context of what we're discussing today though, is a lot of Republicans believe that all of the concerns that the Democrats have raised about Trump that Bolton is now raising about Trump are better left to oversight hearings or frankly, better left to the people in the context of an election.

You don't like the way the president is operating foreign policy, well, he's going to be on the ballot in November. And they would say that's what the Democrats are trying to take away from the people the opportunity to render their own judgment on it. So, whatever you think, you like it, you don't like it, you think it's overblown. The Republicans will --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But Bolton is a direct witness in what is an impeachment trial now that proves that the president did something wrong and had undue influence. And is trying to influence the election for next time for his political rival. And he's asking for a favor so he's looking into his political rival. Why should that go to an election?

JENNINGS: Well --

LEMON: Why shouldn't that go into directly into what is happening now. That seems like the logical thing. And if seven out of the ten of the American people want witnesses aren't you not doing what the American people want?

JENNINGS: Well, I think --

LEMON: And that's what -- and that's what legislators are there for to do the will and the work of the American people? Aren't they elected to do that?

JENNINGS: I'll take the last part first. A significant chunk of those people that won't witness are Republicans as the polling has shown. And they're not interested in Bolton necessarily. They're interested in Bidens.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: That's not what the question he says. We don't know that, Scott. How do you know that?

JENNINGS: Because I'm the Republican sitting out here. I'm the one who supposed --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Yes, but you speak for all the Republicans. But all Republicans you don't know what they asked in the polling.

JENNINGS: I can tell you --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: The polling didn't ask --

JENNINGS: Republicans aren't interested in --

LEMON: -- who do you want as witnesses.

JENNINGS: Republicans aren't interested in the Democrat witnesses.

LEMON: They said, they want -- do you want witnesses.

JENNINGS: They want to hear from Biden. They want to hear from the whistleblower. They want to hear from Schiff. And if you took that off --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But the Democrats don't want to hear from the Republican witnesses. They want to hear from Bolton. JENNINGS: And hence, the impasse that we find ourselves in the United

States.

LEMON: Yes.

COATES: And hence the reason you have the overarching umbrella argument they made say is, which is, even if this is true, let's keep moving forward with this president to the actual election. We're in an election year.

LEMON: Yes.

COATES: Even if for that very reason.

LEMON: We got to go. I got to run.

BOOT: Well, I mean, it's disgraceful because Republicans don't care if Trump has violated a law if he's violated his public trust.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: That's the sad part.

BOOT: All they care about is a political victory. And that's pathetic but that's the reality.

LEMON: Yes. I got to run. Thank you all. I appreciate it.

Republican senators say they were blindsided by Bolton revelations and according to sources at least some of them are frustrated with the White House because of that. The big question is will they do anything about it? I'm going to ask John Kasich, he's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:30:00]

LEMON: Well, the possibility of testimony from John Bolton is rocking the impeachment trial. The New York Times reporting that in a draft of his upcoming book the former National Security Adviser writes the president explicitly told him in August he was with holding nearly $400 million in military aid until Ukraine helped him with investigations into Joe Biden and his son. Could it be a game changer?

Joining me now to discuss, John Kasich, the former governor of Ohio. Good evening, sir. there he is. Westerville, Ohio. John, let's talk about this Bolton book. I mean, it's really ratcheting up the pressure on Republican Senators. Do you think it change the math at all in how many will vote for witnesses?

JOHN KASICH, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, Don, I had a discussion with some of my pals tonight before I came on. And I was convinced last night that this was a big deal, a bomb shell. And he saw that this morning the senators seemed to be rocked back.

You know, they didn't know what to think. Some of my friends have said it -- and I think it's very interesting for this. They say, well, you know, the new news cycle moves so fast, in 72 hours no one will care about this. The Senators all are living in a bubble and people are telling them don't worry.

My sense is that as a guy who has run for office, I want to see more witnesses. I would want to vote to say, I think that's the fair thing to do. But maybe some of them in there are being told don't do that. You're going to lose your base. I mean, this -- so, you got the base consideration and you got conscience. And sometimes they play against one another.

[22:35:12]

So, Don, to answer this, I sort of with you. I think, there will be something that will lead to Bolton being called. But who knows. And maybe some of my pals that think the news cycle is going to move on and no one will care and they live in a bubble. I'll tell you what, at some point the bubbles is going to go away and you're going to have to face voters. The president will have to face voters, the Senators and the House members will have to face voters and the voters ultimately decide.

LEMON: Yes, there you go. Bubbles do burst, it's absolutely right. At some point. Good job there, John. So, here's what President Trump said about Bolton's potentially testifying while he was in Davos. This was just last week. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The problem with John is that it's a national security problem. You know, you can't have somebody who is at national security and if you think about it, John, he knows some of my thoughts. He knows what I think about leaders. What happens if he reveals what I think about a certain leader and it's not very positive.

And then I have to deal on behalf of the country. It's going to be very hard. It's going to make the job very hard. He knows other things and I don't know if we left on the best of terms. I would say probably not. You know, and so you don't like people testifying when they didn't leave on good terms and that was due to me. Not due to him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. Well, he didn't like me, so, I don't want him to testify. Obviously -- anyway. Do you think that's a surreal reason he doesn't want Bolton testifying?

KASICH: Well, no, of course. They want this to be over with quickly, Don. They don't want to drag this on. They want to get this resolved by the end of this week. Be able to march in to the State Of The Union and you know, and so it's a lot of it is politics. And that's what some of the Senators are thinking about. Well, if I just vote now people will forget when I run for reelection and I'll win. And so, therefore it's -- you know, we don't need to go through this. We know how it's going to end up anyway. And I think, you know, I pretty well believe. Unless there's something

that Bolton were to say when he would come and testify. You know, he's going to be acquitted. But I think it's important that you have a fair situation here. And I mean, you have John Bolton saying the president did these things. Everybody said, well, is there any firsthand knowledge. Well, there is. So, you know, let him testify. Let him talk. And if Republicans want witnesses, let them have some. Let's just get it all out there.

LEMON: Whatever -- but John. Whatever happened to people just doing the right thing? What is going on.

KASICH: I don't-- Don, I could just imagine the conversations in some of these Senators offices. They probably got some of their political people in there. They got their chief of staff. They got, you know, the Republican National Committee is talking to them. And they are sitting there and they are getting nervous. And some people say, oh no, they're all calm. There's just a few of them that are nervous, I don't believe that.

I mean, there's some from deep red states that are just saying OK. But take Lamar Alexander. He's got to go back to Tennessee. How does he want to be viewed when he goes back there? Mitt Romney, Susan Collins, Murkowski, Cory Gardener, these are all people, that I -- I tell you some of them are very nervous trying to figure out how to (inaudible) when it comes to witnesses.

LEMON: You know how some of them strike me? OK, listen. It should be that you should stand up -- why I'm not a politician. Just stand up and say this is the right thing to do. And the reason you're sitting here is to do the right thing, not to lie to you, but to do the right thing, to abide by the constitution.

Instead of it appears to me they're looking for any reason at all to back the president so they can go back and say, I pretended that I was trying to be fair, but then I backed the president so that I could stay in office because I thought that that's what you wanted me to do so that I could keep my job. That what it is, CYA. Go on.

KASICH: Well, Don. They're going to have to face the voters and the voters are going to say. But I actually think there's a different twist on this. If I were worried about the political side of this thing, I would want to vote to call witnesses. And even if I think at the end of the day this does not rise to an offense where the president could be removed. That's a legitimate debate.

But how do you go home and say, no, I never really thought we should hear from the guy. The guy was the National Security Adviser. He was in the Oval Office with the president. He has saying some things. He is a respected guy. He was never somebody that was out to get Trump or anything like that.

I don't know how you go home and defend that. I don't. What some people say is that we're so divided in the Republicans and Democrats that you're not going to get anybody to try to decide what's fair. I don't agree with that. I would not want to think I ever operated that way. But, Don, that's what's happening. And you know, I think you and I always trying to figure out what's happening down there.

[22:40:14]

LEMON: How do you sleep at night? How do you look your kids in the eye? How do you look at your grandchildren in the eye?

KASICH: That's right.

LEMON: How do you tell them it's right, grandma did what's right. Yes, grandma did what's right today. No she didn't. My mom was a coward today. that's how you would say that.

KASICH: Don, at the end, this is your, Don, at the end you are only going to be remembered for what you did when you were there. You are not going to be remembered that you were a good Republican or Democrat member. It's what did you do. Remember Kennedy wrote a book called, Profiles and Courage. But it's not a big thick book. Because that kind of leadership doesn't come around all the time which he did.

LEMON: We are going to work on that. We are going to work on that Democrat thing. I'm going to send you this book that I have in high school from my Grammar teacher, Republican or Democratic member. We are going to work on that too many years -- too many years in Washington.

KASICH: (Inaudible) -- my mother.

LEMON: I got to go.

(LAUGHTER)

KASICH: Don, I know you do. Listen, I was a very independent Congressman and governor, my whole career. Thank god for my mother who told me, Johnny, speak out. Tell it like it is. And that's what I've always try to do.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Your mom is right. You're a good man and your mom a good woman. Thank you.

KASICH: All right so.

LEMON: Thank you. See you next time.

KASICH: Thank you. All right.

LEMON: Ken Starr, yes, that Ken Starr. Remember the Clinton Ken Starr. Says impeachment is happening all too frequently. Is this happening? I', going to wake up, right? We are going to wake up and say, we were sleeping. We were dreaming, that Ken Starr. Impeachment is happening too frequently.

This from the man whose investigation of Bill Clintons affair with Monica Lewinski set off the previous impeachment trial. Kind of a 180 isn't it? next, more from Ken Starr, then and now. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:45:00]

LEMON: Well, Ken Starr really has changed his tune. The former independent counsel who's investigation drove the impeachment of Bill Clinton now says that he thinks impeachment is becoming all too common.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEN STARR, WHITE HOUSE DEFENSE TEAM: The Senate is being called to set as the high court of impeachment all too frequently. Indeed, we are living in what I think can amply be described as the age of impeachment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, joining me now to discuss Former Clinton impeachment adviser, Guy Smith. Michael Isikoff is here as well. He is a chief investigative correspondent at Yahoo News. Gentlemen, welcome to the program. Guy, you know, Ken Starr going all out in his defense of the president today attacking the process, even comparing impeachment to war. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: Like war, impeachment is hell. Or at least presidential impeachment is hell. The presidential impeachment is tantamount to domestic war, hankfully, protected by our beloved first amendment, a war of word and a war of ideas. But it's filled with acrimony and it divides the country like nothing else.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Guy, your head must have just about exploded when you heard that.

GUY SMITH, FORMER CLINTON IMPEACHMENT ADVISER: Yes. He was so sanctimony in 1998. He was so sanctimony as today. You got to give him this though, Don. He didn't bring the bed sniffing that he did in 1998 to the floor of the Senate today. But what he did do was stand there and say it's not OK to have a sexual indiscretion. While wrong but not unconstitutional.

It's not OK to do that, but you can -- it is OK to extort a foreign government to get dirt on your political opponent and interfere in the U.S. Election. And that is OK. It's staggering the hypocrisy and he could stand there. He did a fifth avenue moment in front of the chief justice and the Senate and American people in history. Right there on the well of the Senate.

LEMON: Michael? I'm going to bring you in, 1998 Ken Starr argued Clinton had committed an impeachable offense by invoking executive privilege to block witnesses and documents. I want you to listen to him make that case then make the opposite argument for President Trump today. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president refused six invitations to testify before the grand jury, refusing to cooperate with a dually authorized federal criminal investigation, is inconsistent with the general statutory duty of all executive branch employees to cooperate with criminal investigations. It also is inconsistent with the president's duty to faithfully execute the laws.

STARR: It is not an impeachable offense for the president of the United States to defend the asserted legal and constitutional prerogatives of the presidency.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL ISIKOFF, CHIEF INVESTIGATION CORRESPONDENT, YAHOO NEWS: Yes.

LEMON: Seamless. I mean, what's going on?

ISIKOFF: There's kind of a double irony to this. First of all, you know, of all the people in the country to warn about the dangers of impeachment or over use of impeachment. Ken Starr was probably not the best guy in to deliver that message.

[22:50:04]

But, you know, the other irony here is you go back and to those of us who covered the Starr investigation. Starr left no stone unturned to get the full facts about Bill Clinton's conduct. He subpoenaed secret service agents. He forced the president to take a DNA test. He forced Monica Lewinsky to testify for hours on hours about intimate matters regarding her relations with the president.

And Starr, on this very day that he's speaking on behalf of the president whose defenders don't want to take the first step to get the full truth by having John Bolton testify and other witnesses who can shed light on it, you know there's a really striking contrast between how aggressive Starr's investigation was and how the president's defenders are trying to limit the investigation into his (inaudible).

LEMON: OK. Hold that thought right there, Michael.

ISIKOFF: Sure.

LEMON: We're going to get a break in and we'll come back on the other side and continue this conversation.

ISIKOFF: Sure.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:55:00]

LEMON: Backed now with former Clinton impeachment adviser Guy Smith and Yahoo News chief investigative correspondent -- chief investigative correspondent Michael Isikoff. OK, Michael, another question for you. When it comes to witnesses on your podcast you asked a member of the president's legal team, Robert Ray, we saw him today. You asked him what Bolton would say if called to testify. Let's watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ISIKOFF: Do you have any idea what John Bolton would say if he was called to testify?

ROBERT RAY, PRESIDENT'S LEGAL TEAM, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR AND INDEPENDENT COUNSEL: That's not my task here. OK, my --

ISIKOFF: Do you --

RAY: My task here --

ISIKOFF: Do you have any idea?

RAY: I'm not -- well, look, my task here is to deal with the existing record.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So they're very defensive when it comes to Bolton. How concerned do you think his legal team is it when that he'll end up testifying, Bolton.

ISIKOFF: Very, look, that was an interview we did on Friday for skullduggery, our podcast, and it was a question I've been asking for weeks of the president's legal team, because it would seem to me that's the first thing you want to know.

If you're going to trial you want to know what potential witnesses are out there, what potential evidence is out there that can affect your case, and right now, as we speak, we don't know whether they did know, and didn't do anything with it, or did and just chose to conceal it. Either way it seems at this point, like almost legal malpractice not to have fully vetted what John Bolton was going to say before The New York Times broke that story last night.

LEMON: All right, thank you very much, gentlemen, I appreciate it. See you next time. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)