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Don Lemon Tonight

Sen. Ben Cardin (D-MD) Was Interviewed About Whether the House Should Resume Its Investigation into the Ukraine Scandal; No Witness Brought in the Senate; Final Impeachment Vote Set For Wednesday After GOP Senators Vote To Block Witnesses; Former White House Chief of Staff Calls Bolton Honest And Honorable; America's Choice 2020, State Of The Race; Los Angeles Lakers Pay Tribute To Kobe Bryant At First Game Since NBA. 10-11p ET

Aired January 31, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Thank you very much for watching. CNN Tonight with D. Lemon right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Now I'm going to give you the pep talk. Glass half full. He can be checked. Even if -- even if folks have to wait until November. But I know what you're saying.

My question is, right, when you make a decision, right, you stick to it. So why are the senators want to talk? Do they want to clear their guilty consciences? Do they want to assuage their own guilt? Do they want to reach out to their constituents saying, hey, listen, you know, I did what was right in my heart? But it may -- he did something wrong.

I don't want to hear it. Your vote says what you thought. It's exactly what Lamar Alexander said. We think they proved their case but we didn't want to put -- we didn't want to put him out of office.

Listen, that's up to the American people. Whether they want to put him out of office. But to not have witnesses in a trial to not vote for witnesses in a trial? You're going to back to your constituents and say well, listen, I don't think it was impeachable, OK, so I would not have voted for him to be taken out of office. That's one thing.

But to tell to look people in the face and say I think this was fair. I think what we did was right. But I voted not very witnesses. How do you reconcile that?

CUOMO: Can't. You can't. The height of political hypocrisy. On both sides. Not left and right. The president and these Republicans senators. I don't even put them on the same side.

This, look, the president is like the white walker, you know. He is the all-powerful. They do what he says that they do. He has them in his hand. And he squeezes and they squeak.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And he knows it and he's right. But he does not deserve the blame. They do.

LEMON: You are reading my mind. Because I --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: This Frankenstein is not the villain in that story.

LEMON: Well, I don't know if it's Frankenstein.

CUOMO: It's the people who made him.

LEMON: I think it's -- I don't agree with that. I don't think it's like Frankenstein. And I don't want to, you know, I hate -- I think it's more like the Wizard of Oz. I think if they actually had some you know what and they stood up to him they would realize it's like the Wizard of Oz.

Because I think I know that there are people out there who stand on principle. Who know that in any normal setting in any normal trial, if someone said there are no witnesses? What? There's no evidence. We don't believe in any of it.

CUOMO: But they don't want to hear it.

LEMON: They proved their case.

CUOMO: They didn't want to hear it. It gets worse for them.

LEMON: It gets worse.

CUOMO: Whoever they put on. It gets worse for the president whoever they put on. I know he told you --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- that all these guys will clear me.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: But he's the only person I've ever heard of in the history of a confrontational process who has an alibi and hides it.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And when I say Frankenstein, I'm not trying to make the president something ugly.

LEMON: I know.

CUOMO: I'm saying he was created by the elections, their weakness and their hunger for power over serving the people who gave them power.

LEMON: Yes. Yes.

CUOMO: And now they get what they deserve.

LEMON: You got to be careful. A lot of snowflakes out there. How dare you call the president Frankenstein. There's no new one --

CUOMO: Listen, I make the argument on a regular basis. I blame the men and women who are now coming forward to say they think what he did was wrong.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Why were they quiet all along? Why will they tell people that you must decide and not give you the information to do it. I'm OK with the acquittal. I'm OK with the removal vote. I think in good faith that can be argued by people.

LEMON: That's completely fine. Because that's the American -- the American people they can decide on that. But to say that there are no witnesses in the trial, I don't think that's going to be good for the people who said no come November.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Right. And I don't blame Trump. This system broke itself down, started valuing the wrong things and Trump took advantage.

LEMON: Advantage of it. Exactly. You are right. But guess what? Wait. You just wait. You'll see.

CUOMO: OK.

LEMON: Thank you, sir. Have a good one.

CUOMO: You, too.

This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

So, as we have been talking the Senate Republicans voting tonight to block witnesses in the impeachment trial of President Trump but also forced to postpone the final vote until Wednesday.

What I wanted to say to Chris there was like, they're taking a dangerous gamble because as we know things keep coming out every single day. So, they're waiting until Wednesday. Never know what's going to come out. I'm just saying. Watch.

Which means the president won't get what he wanted an acquittal before the State of the Union and before the, you know, the big Super Bowl and all that. Even if the end result is something of a foregone conclusion, there was an unexpected amount of drama on the Senate floor.

Mitch McConnell backed into a corner forced to cut a deal to postpone the final vote to avoid Democrats running out the clock and potentially dragging out this trial.

So, let me tell you what to expect, OK? The trial resumes on Monday morning. It starts at 11 a.m. with four hours of closing arguments. Gosh. How much more can we take? All the arguments. Four hours of arguments and they're going to do votes, how many votes can be. They have to vote on the vote. We're going to vote so we can vote.

[22:05:04]

Then senators want the chance to try to justify, as I said, their no votes on witnesses. That will have -- they will have 10 minutes each to make statements before the final vote. And that's set for 4 p.m. Wednesday. Do you really want to hear them try to justify what they did? I think their vote stands on its own.

So, let's not lose sight of this though. Fifty-one United States senators voting no on witnesses for a trial. Closing their eyes and their ears to directly relevant evidence and witnesses. Evidence from a firsthand witness, John Bolton who was a top member of the Trump administration. Not only a top member, he was like the most Republican, Republican. The hawkish Republican.

Then if you have the chief of staff who, by the way, John Bolton and John Kelly didn't get along. They didn't really like each other. And now you have John Kelly the former chief of staff saying that he believes John Bolton. Get out of here.

So, John Bolton reportedly writes in his new book that the president directly told him in early May to help with the Ukraine pressure campaign. To call Ukraine's president and make sure that he would meet with Rudy Giuliani. By the way Rudy Giuliani does not work for the administration. He's not been appointed by anyone; he's not been or elected.

And Bolton says the White House counsel Pat Cipollone was in the room where it happened. By the way the name of Bolton's book which was the Oval Office. That's the room where it happened. Which would make the president's lead defender in the impeachment trial a material witness.

Yet, 51 senators refusing to hear what Bolton has to say. But here's the fact. The fact is his story will come out. But it will come out after the trial is over. And John Bolton will make money on it.

And in the meantime, the American people 75 percent of whom wanted to hear witnesses will remain in the dark. And that means you.

Carl Bernstein is here. John Dean, Laura Coates, and Alice Stewart. Hello one and all.

CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good to be with you.

LEMON: How did I do? What did you feel?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Tell me how you really feel.

LEMON: I mean, we expected this and we have been saying all along this is how is -- right? That it was a foregone conclusion. We knew how it was going to come out. But then to not hear from witnesses, kind of thought about that.

Now this closing arguments and statements from the senators are next week. So instead of hearing witnesses we're going to hear senators trying to explain -- they're going to -- they're going to -- they want to -- they're going to be all in their feelings as we say. Here's why I did it. Because in my heart -- do you want -- do people want to hear that?

COATES: Well, first of all, the irony for a lot of people is going to be you're going to delay this by that six days so we can hear from you but you're not willing to delay for seven days to actually have witnesses talk.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: One more day. Right.

COATES: Right? To hear from people who were players. You've told us essentially so what. So what? Now you want to tell us so here's why. And the reality is their votes do speak for themselves. And the idea that they're willing to instead of hearing from the people who were at the center of the issue themselves and said, I think people do however want to hear an explanation in this respect.

Alan Dershowitz came out very strong handedly, very unpersuasively and very incorrectly about the idea of the extension of executive power, that the president can do nothing wrong as long as he believes he is the chosen one. Or any elected official you can do what it takes to stay in office.

I think there is responsibility for those members of Congress and Senate to say here's why I am voting maybe in agreement with that or not in agreement with that. Was that really out of left field? Is that the outlier argument, or is it the course of action I'm actually following? I do want to hear that.

LEMON: But do you where I want to hear that? I want to hear that from my congressman in a town hall. I don't want to hear them stand there after all of this with the evidence.

I want them to show up face to face in my town where I voted for them and I want them to stand up in front of me and explain to me why you said that there should be no witnesses in a trial. And how you explain to every judge and every person who's on trial around the country that they don't have the same opportunity to say there's n witness -- there are no witnesses in my trial. I don't want the damming evidence to come out in my trial as an American citizen.

I want them to explain to me that. But I don't them to do it on the Senate floor. I don't want them to do it -- actually I don't want them to do it in front of the television camera. Come to me and tell me if you are big and bold why you did it.

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I can tell you several things that they will say when approached when they're back in their districts, when they're at Walmart, when they're at church, when they're at their kid's school. Because their constituents will ask them this.

[22:10:05] Republican senators will say this a few things. First of all, to say that there have been no witnesses in the Senate trial is actually not factually accurate. They have had witness testimony which came over from the documents from the House. So that is witness testimony not physically in person but they have had witness information in the Senate trial.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But Alice, you know what we're talking about.

STEWART: So that's an important distinction and --

LEMON: They keep complaining that there are no direct witnesses to what happened, no one -- to the phone call and what happened in the room. The direct witness, there is a direct witness who is standing there saying, here I am, why don't you subpoena me, why don't you call me. I can tell you what happened. I was in the room where it happened.

As Laura said, you can wait six days, get in front of a TV camera and cry and say I'm going to make my case and this is why I did. Why can't you wait seven days to get this person? Even if you think their testimony won't change anything, why can't you wait and listen? Because guess what?

(CROSSTALK)

STEWART: I can tell you also --

BERNSTEIN: This is about telling --

STEWART: I can tell you also what they will say, if I can finish. They will also say that John Bolton was around for the House not only to subpoena but also challenge that subpoena in court, which they did not do.

And they will also say that this, their articles of impeachment have not met the constitutional threshold to remove this president from office. That is what they'll say. And finally, they will reinforce what Jay Sekulow said countless times, is that partisan differences are not grounds for impeachment. That is what these Republican senators will say.

BERNSTEIN: It's not about what they say. It's about their cowardness. It's about doing the right thing. It's about being leaders. It's about doing what throughout our history at crucial moments where you had representatives and senators who have stepped up and said we cannot accept this, it is my duty to go back to my district, not go into my church and do a bunch of gobbledygook such as the talking points that we have heard over and over again.

But rather to say, this is a matter of corrupt president of the United States who has taken extraordinary steps to undermine our constitutional system. To give away our free electoral system. To connive and collaborate with a foreign power to sabotage our free electoral system. That is what they are saying in all these craven explanations. Yes,

that happened but it doesn't rise to the level somehow of the process that the prophet Dershowitz annunciated in his new legal catechism that he developed for the Trump faithful the other day.

LEMON: Do you want to weigh in on this? Because I got a question for you unless you want to weigh in on this.

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Fortunately, only are given 10 minutes to speak. That's the good news. Each of them.

LEMON: So, this is, listen, Schiff brought up a key detail from the Times Bolton the reporting they have on Bolton, that Trump's counsel Pat Cipollone was actually in the Oval Office when Trump instructed Bolton on Ukraine. If so, that's huge.

DEAN: It is huge. He was warned in advance. He got a letter from the House judiciary committee or the House managers alerting him to the fact that he was a witness and he was becoming an advocate when he had factual information and could be called as a witness.

He totally ignored it. It violates the rule of ethics of the District of Columbia, Barr, with which he was a member. He also made false statements on the floor of the Senate. I can assure you that is an ethical violation. So, I think he's got some explaining to do.

LEMON: All right. We've got a lot more to talk about. Everybody, stick around. Up next, I'm going to talk to Senator Ben Cardin. And I'm going to ask him if he thinks the Senate -- the Senate's refusal to hear witnesses means that the House should resume its investigation, right after this break.

[22:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The final impeachment vote set for Wednesday afternoon after a 51 out of 53 Republican senators voted today to block witness testimony in the trial.

Let's bring in Democratic Senator of Maryland now. Senator, thank you. Busy, busy times. I'm so glad that you're here. So, let's talk. Why do you think your colleagues ultimately voted against having new witnesses and documents in this trial?

SEN. BEN CARDIN (D-MD): Don, this is very disappointing. The Senate under the Republican leadership has failed to carry out its constitutional responsibilities to conduct a trial. It's in the Constitution that we're required to have a trial for the articles of the impeachment. But you have to have witnesses and documents and now the Republicans have blocked the opportunity for witnesses and documents to be made available in the Senate trial.

So, this is a pretty sad day. Why did they do this? It's really hard to understand. You would think it's just common sense tells you this is a matter of basic fairness, it's not a matter of whether you decide to vote for or against the impeachment. It's a matter of conducting a trial in a fair way and they have failed in that test.

LEMON: You know, I've been saying that it seems like new information comes out every single day. It's coming out every day. Would you like to see the House pick this back up?

CARDIN: Well, whether the House picks it up or not the information is going to come out. We're seeing as you're right, every day. There's another bit of information that's coming out. We know that the information ultimately will get out. And then those who voted to deny the Senate the opportunity to have the information before our votes are going to be in a pretty difficult position.

The House can try to do what it can on oversight with the president but recognize the president will provide no help whatsoever. We had -- it was a blanket defiance in the impeachment proceedings. I think the House can expect a blanket defiance by this president in any effort they have when they preside.

LEMON: Well, listen, the being the majority leader in the Senate is pretty powerful. Right? And being the leader of the House, the House speaker is pretty powerful as well.

[22:19:53]

And I'm going to ask you, you know, get to this at end of the question. But I'm asking because sources are telling CNN that the Majority Leader Mitch McConnell spoke by phone with the president tonight before introducing this resolution that would extend that final vote until Wednesday. The president apparently signed off.

So, here's the question. What does it say about our system that the president is actually signing off on his own impeachment trial decisions?

CARDIN: Well, I don't know if that's true or not. But we do know that --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: If it is true. That's the reporting. That's the sources are telling CNN.

CARDIN: We do know -- we do know that Mitch McConnell was working with the president's lawyers and setting up the ground rules for the trial. He acknowledged that. He wasn't talking to the House managers. He was only talking to the president's lawyers. They coordinated everything with the president's lawyers. That's outrageous.

We took an oath to be impartial in this proceeding. How are you impartial when you only talk to one party? It's not up to the president on how the Senate conducts its trial. It's up to the Senate. The majority leader should be representing the Senate not the president of the United States.

LEMON: Right. John Cornyn who is a Republican senator said that Democrats are trying to embarrass the president by delaying acquittal until after his State of the Union. Is that true? Is that what you're trying to do?

CARDIN: Not in the least. What we wanted to have was a fair process. And we were not part of a process that was developed. We're not happy by how this thing is being handled next week. We would have preferred to have the debate in open session with the chief justice presiding and to give each of us an opportunity to debate the production of more documents. We didn't have a chance to debate that before the vote were place --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Well let me ask you this.

CARDIN: -- among their selves.

LEMON: Then why are you postponing? Why signing off? Why not just they made their bed they lay in it. Why give the opportunity to have them speak to the American people to try to sort of assuage their own guilt about how they voted or to, for some reason to explain to them. Why not just move on?

CARDIN: That really wasn't our choice. The majority leader has set up an opportunity which called morning business during the regular business of the United States Senate. It's not during the impeachment trial.

LEMON: So' what do you think of that?

CARDIN: Well, you know, first of all, I don't object to members trying to explain their votes on this important thing as part of the record. That's perfectly fine. My objection is that we didn't have chance among ourselves to try to convince each other of our position.

Debate the issues. That's what the Senate is supposed to be doing. We should be debating before the votes. But quite frankly the members had their minds made up and it had everything to do with the influence this president has and it's just wrong to conduct a trial without witnesses.

LEMON: Yes.

CARDIN: And I'm extremely disappointed.

LEMON: Well, I'm just --

(CROSSTALK)

CARDIN: I think what happens next week will not correct the mistakes that were made in process.

LEMON: OK. So that was my point.

(CROSSTALK)

CARDIN: This process does not pay us the constitutional --

LEMON: Well, that was my point. And listen, I've to run because, and Laura Coates brings up a point. Brought up a good point earlier.

CARDIN: Sure.

LEMON: You are going to wait six days so you can explain yourself to the American people but you couldn't wait one more day after that to hear from witnesses. I don't know if that actually makes sense.

CARDIN: Yes.

LEMON: Thank you, Senator. I appreciate your time.

CARDIN: It doesn't.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, sir.

CARDIN: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: So, thank you for joining us. I know it's been a long day for him so we appreciate him joining us. With today's vote has the Republican Party given the president absolute power?

John Kasich is here. We're going to talk about that, next.

[22:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The final impeachment vote is set for Wednesday 4 p.m. That after the Senate voted 51-49 today to block witness testimony including from John Bolton.

Let's discuss now. John Kasich is here. He's always with me a couple of times a week. John, it's good to have you on. Former governor of Ohio, by the way. So, good evening to you.

After Republican senator is bringing up how divided the country is, but the one thing that the country was united on and that's witnesses. I mean, 75 percent. Can we get 75 percent of the country to be united on anything? What's the real reason they voted against --

(CROSSTALK)

JOHN KASICH, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That's pretty amazing number.

LEMON: Yes.

KASICH: You're right. Yes. I mean, look, we're going to have an election, Don. I think last week I brought up to you, you know, we're going to know where the people are. And, you know, right now, people are going to -- Republican -- some Republicans are going to celebrate. But you know, I've to tell you that the people will have the final say here.

And, you know, for people who are watching and they think well, this is a great boost for Donald Trump. Well, it really isn't. It's not ever a great boost when something like is happening to you. And it's not good for the country. It's a sad thing.

And we have to take into account what we saw in the midterm elections and what we saw in the special elections. You know about the one in Louisiana. What happened in Kentucky.

The president has got to be careful about what he does going forward. Because right now when it comes to suburban college educated women, Republicans are behind 32 points with that. So, it will be a close election. I hope that the -- we're going to have a situation where it will be competitive where Democrats will pick somebody to be their standard bearer who is going to be more to the center. If they don't, probably not going to be very interesting.

LEMON: Yes.

KASICH: If it's close to the center it's going to be -- it will be very interesting election and people will have their say about the senators. The ones who are running in very tough races they will have to respond for this as to why they wouldn't let somebody come who had firsthand experience and talk about what he saw with the president. It's -- go ahead and try to explain it. Good luck. Good luck to you.

LEMON: I'm with you on that. Listen, I know you hate to answer these, you know, so many questions about Democrats and Republicans but you are Republican. Democrats and quite frankly, a lot of other, John, are calling this a sham trial. You know, I'm not, I don't want to say that but they are calling.

KASICH: Yes.

LEMON: Is it? Do you think it is?

KASICH: I think they really short circuited. And it is just, you know, without having all these -- having witnesses it makes no sense.

[22:30:00]

Don, let me try to explain something quickly to you. There are people in this country who have lost -- who feel (inaudible), they feel out of control. They work with people and the person next to them, then they're gone changing jobs. Their neighborhood is shrinking. They're neighborhood -- the same neighbors aren't around. They don't go to church much very often and they feel that everything is overwhelming them. They're out of control.

And what Donald Trump says, I can stop it. I can fix it all. I'm strong. And so there are people like that who line up for him. Also there are very successful people who say I don't really care what he does, because he has made my paycheck -- not my paycheck better, but the stock market is better for me. That's called transaction. That's like, I don't care what you do, just give me more and I'll go along with you.

Those are the people that are for Donald Trump. And I'm not putting -- I'm not criticizing the people who feel a lack of control. But Democrats are going to have to answer that question. What are you going to do to give me a sense that I can get my life back together again? When we wonder who these people are that line up and support Trump. He's the guy saying, I'll fix it. If you're a coal miner, the coal mines is coming back. If you're a steel workers, they are coming back. Democrats are going to have to respond to that. They are going to have to have an answer. Because people are frightened.

LEMON: But coal is not coming back. Neither --

KASICH: I know, but he says it.

LEMON: He says it.

KASICH: It makes them feel better for a moment. But they are not coming back, I know.

LEMON: All right for the moment, but then there's nothing -- but then there's nothing there. So, then what happens? So, I mean, you said Democrats are going to have to fix it. But -- don't you think he's going to have to answer for that as well. I know that people hate it the last election when not only Hillary Clinton but others in the race said, listen. Those folks are going to have to be retrained. That's the reality of it. I don't want to lie to them and say, coal is coming back. Because it's not at this point.

KASICH: I couldn't agree with you more, Don. But they're going to have to settle people down and say yes, you have a problem, but we can dig out of this.

LEMON: All right.

KASICH: We can do it together. We're not going to leave you behind. He stands here and says I'm strong and when he does things that you look at and you say how can he do that? It's because sometimes people say, well, he's going it take care of things. So the Democrats are going to have to respond -- it has to respond to their solution.

LEMON: SO there's -- OK, here's the question then. How do you relate that back today though, to the Republicans and Senators today not even calling witnesses? That's my question.

KASICH: Because they didn't want to go back home and face these people who are going scream at them that you are attacking our leader. That's what it was fundamentally. They didn't want to go back and have to deal with it.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Well, you just said -- but you just said (inaudible) before that that the leader is not delivering what he says he is. So what does it matter?

KASICH: Don.

LEMON: I'm just asking I'm not attacking you.

(CROSSTALK) KASICH: No, what I'm saying to you is that the people at home who

have these feelings think that he will ultimately deliver. But at least he's standing up for me. I mean, when he attacks, you know, a guy who died like John McCain. We go, how can he do that? And people at home are saying, who support him, he's strong. He's my guy. He's going to take care of things.

And it has to be debunked. It means that an effective Democrat candidate or any politician is going to have to say that isn't going to happen. That is not true. But let me tell you how we are going to get out of these mess together. It can't be, you know, a message to deliver towards elite. It's got to be delivered to those people who are very concerned and very worried.

Dom, it's happening all over the world. It happen in Brexit. It's happening on Australia. It's happen in Brazil. It's happened in central Europe. People are frightened. And we have to be able to tell them you're not alone. And he says, don't worry I'll fix it.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Well, that's a point, I wish we could continue this conversation. I know, I wish we could continue as to frighten why? And the question is always, why you know, when you go to therapy, right? The therapy is like, why? And so that you can get to the bottom of what it is, because guess what? There is no savior. There never is a savior. You know, who the savior is? The savior, it is you. I got to run.

KASICH: Don, they're afraid, because they don't -- they feel lack of control. And the politician that can respond to that is going to be successful. Respond to it in a way that's constructive and meaningful. We should discuss this more.

LEMON: Right. Yes, sir. Thank you.

KASICH: Thank you.

LEMON: I appreciate you, Johnny. We will see you soon.

KASICH: All right, Don.

LEMON: John Kelly backing up John Bolton for the second time in a week. And they weren't exactly BFFs. Are these former administration officials trying to warn America about just what's going on behind closed doors in the White House?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:35:00]

LEMON: So, Senate Republicans voting today to block calling any witnesses and voting down amendments to subpoena John Bolton's testimony. Let's discuss now. CNN presidential historian Douglas Brinkley is here, and our two global affairs analysts, Susan Glasser and Max Boot, joins us as well. Good to see all of you. Susan, I'm going to start with you, more leaks from this Bolton

manuscript. We learned President Trump told him directly to pave the way for a meeting between Giuliani and Ukraine president. That was in early May. That was months before that infamous July 25 phone call. The most astounding thing about it is, it made no difference to the Senate Republicans.

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, Don, it's been really something to be up on Capitol Hill every day for the last two weeks, watching this trial. And you know, seeing essentially a group of people get really tied up in their own very circular logic, right. You know, a lot of the debate and discussion from the Trump legal team and from Republicans Senators has been a critique of the House process in which they said, well, we didn't get to call witnesses. The president didn't get to call witnesses.

So therefore, we don't want to call witnesses. It's really -- it's been at that level of discourse, number one. Number two, Doug can speak to this better as a historian, but I have been thinking about this tonight. And I'm really struck by it.

[22:40:10]

This isn't just some junior staffer who's volunteered to come forward and testify against the president of the United States.

LEMON: Right.

GLASSER: Any time in my lifetime that the National Security Adviser wasn't just going to be called to public testify, but to directly accuse the president of the United States of wrong doing at the heart of the an impeachable article. Imagine if the National Security Adviser during Iran contra, not only was testifying publicly as they did. But said Ronald Reagan knew everything about Iran contra and in fact, it was a criminal scheme cooked up in his office with his full knowledge.

I mean, you know, we're talking about something that historically is just extraordinary to turn away evidence like that. I just -- I don't see how that justification holds up. And it tells me that you sort of lack these Republican Senators in a room and it's like the oxygen has sort of run low. The level of debate and intellectual rational that leads you to turn away evidence like that is.

LEMON: Yes, Douglas, it seems like you're wearing to weigh in. What do you want to say?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, I disagree with Susan completely. I mean, it's just stunning that a National Security Adviser, John Bolton doesn't get an audience with the Senate. I mean, he is loved figure by conservative Republicans. He is somebody that worked with everybody from, you know, Mitt Romney -- on one hand to extreme right on the other hand and to not give him to kind of sequester him off and treat him as if he's a nobody.

LEMON: The former chief of staff, John Kelly, who they didn't get along with is saying, John Kelly is speaking out about Bolton's revelations. He said that Bolton was an honest guy and an honest guy. And to the Senate, nothing.

BRINKLEY: No, and General Kelly is one of the great Americans of all time. And when he was in the White House, he knew he is copious note taker too. General Kelly, when he finally comes forward and talks more about what his experiences are, I don't think this issue of impeachment is going away. Bolton is going to keep coming out. Kelly is going to come out. And there's still a lot of reckoning to come.

LEMON: Max, I want to ask you about, just tonight, the former FBI Director, James Comey, post an op-ed. The op-ed is in the Washington Post. Saying that Trump won't be removed but here's what he said, he says, trouble will be remove but it will be fine. And he writes, he says, (inaudible) of Americans do they see darkness. Our president is a bad person and an incompetent leader. He lies constantly, stokes blame of racial division. Tries to obstruct justice and represents much of what our founders fear about a self-interested demagogue.

In November Americans fully informed will have the chance to decide what kind of country we are and what we expect of our leaders. I don't buy the stuff about the United States democracy dying. Its death has been predicted regularly for centuries. I'm wondering if you agree, because he started this op-ed with something that was that rang true to me.

He said, you know, I remember when our president was shot and killed on national television. His wife wore the blood on her dress. I remember when, you know, the four little girls, he said, in the Birmingham church were shot. And then he goes on and on, he talks about that and he says, but -- he says that the democracy is not dying. We will be OK. He's taking a long view. Do you agree?

MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, I wish I could be as optimistic as Jim Comey. I would not certainly say that democracy is dying. But I would certainly say that democracy is in trouble in this country, because we have never had an impeachment trial in our 243 year history where you didn't have witnesses.

And you know the argument that Director Comey makes is similar to the one that a lot of the Republican Senators made in saying, well, they don't want witnesses. They say, well, let the voters sort it out. You know, it's up to them in November. But remember what Donald Trump is accused of. What he actually did. He's trying to fix the election. He is trying to deny the voters a fair vote by getting a foreign country to intercede in the election on his behalf. And if he is acquitted, as well expect he will be, next Wednesday. What is to stop him from doing the exact same thing?

I mean, remember what happen last summer, the day after Robert Mueller testified about his probe of Russian interference in the U.S. election. Which was widely seen a kind of a dud, that let Trump off the hook. The very next day, Trump is on the phone with President Zelensky of Ukraine, basically trying to blackmail him into impugning Joe Biden and helping Donald Trump. So how do we know he's not going to be doing the same thing on

Thursday with some other head of state? What if he calls up Vladimir Putin and says, hey, you know, I know Bernie Sanders was out there in 1988, do you have dirt on me on Bernie Sanders? Maybe I can lift sanctions if you get me some dirt on Bernie Sanders. What is it to stop Trump from doing that? Because he is going to see this as basically a green light. It's going to be a vindication of him. And he could easily win the election in November.

[22:45:00]

I mean, especially if the Democrats nominate somebody very far to the left. I would bet on Donald Trump winning and so, can you imagine what Donald Trump will do in the second term after having escaped impeachment and having defeating another Democrat in November? That to me -- doesn't mean democracy is going to be dying. But I think democracy is really under threat in this country.

LEMON: Susan, Max, thank you very much. Doug, I want you to stick around. The Senators who are running for president are racing back and forth between Washington and Iowa. How President Trump's impeachment is impacting the 2020 race. That's next.

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LEMON: Now to the state of the race, the Senate's vote tonight setting the stage for the president's acquittal next week. But just days before the Iowa caucuses officially kick off the 2020 race, how will the impeachment battle shape the political landscape?

[22:50:10]

Douglas Brinkley is back. I mean, he didn't get enough, right. We need to hang out. Mark Mckinnon joins us, Joe Lockhart. Good to see you gentlemen. Thank you so much Wanted to hang out. Good to see you gentlemen, thank you so much. Mark, I'm going to start with you, because you are a busy man. Did you fly to Iowa this morning?

MARK MCKINNON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I just flew from Iowa, I just got here from Iowa.

LEMON: So, how much of an impact is this having the Senators who can't be there on the campaign trail? How much of an impact?

MCKINNON: Well, here's the great irony. Last night I was at President Trump's rally and so the Senators who are running for president, the Democratic Senators are all stuck in D.C. on the impeachment trial while the guy who's being impeached was flying into Iowa campaigning.

LEMON: Right. Right.

MCKINNON: So, yes, it's had a huge impact for all -- because all those Senators who want to be here kicking the closing days of the campaign can't be there. Also, you could argue that Trump has successfully besmirched the guy he was really worried about, which is Joe Biden. And then even Biden is the nominee through this trial they have put the name Hunter Biden out there in the same kind of way that emails were out there in 2016. So, it's having a big -- a huge impact.

LEMON: So, having an impact, are they talking about -- is there an advantage, obviously I guess it is for the folks who are there, you know, for the -- Mayor Buttigieg and all that (inaudible).

(CROSSTALK)

MCKINNON: It's having an impact on the -- voters aren't talking about it but it's having an impact on the race itself. And I don't know that the -- I mean, people are kind of in their camps, you know, at this point. I mean, it seems to me --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I wonder if it's having an advantage for the folks who are there, who could focus on --

MCKINNON: Yeah.

LEMON: -- yes.

MCKINNON: No question about it. And you know, the question is -- this will be a short-term win for the president and his base. And he'll declare victory and acquittal. But you know, down the line, also, listen, you know, I've worked with John Bolton. This -- the irony here is that they're attacking, you know, a rock rib Republican, and a street fighter and at some point he's going to have a say, and when he does, it could be a lot of people say, why didn't he say this at the trial. You know, he is the great white shark circling the White House and at some point he's going to bite and they're going to need a bigger boat.

LEMON: Yes, but he's going to make a lot of money off the book.

MCKINNON: Well.

LEMON: I have to tell you. I've never watched so much ESPN, because there's so much voting on the voting on the voting. I was like, I'm going to flip it over for just little bit, just a little bit to watch.

So, listen, Joe, at the heart of this impeachment is the scheme by the president to dig up dirt on Joe Biden, this is our latest poll, CNN poll here. Polls as a matter of fact. Biden is still at the top of the Democratic field. Is it too early to know if these smears against him, if it's impacting, would have an impact on the general election?

JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: All right. Listen, I think there's a bunch of cross currents that we haven't quite figured out what they mean. I think there's a rallying around Joe Biden among establishment Democrats that, you know, who's Donald Trump to be taking him on, and smearing him. You know, Democrats are still smarting from the emails and the swift boating that happened.

So, I think there is a rallying around. But the president did get to smear him. He couldn't get Ukraine to do it, he got his lawyers to do it on the House. I think there's another dynamic going on in Iowa. And, again, it's a cross current, which is I think Bernie Sanders was helped by the fact that he wasn't in Iowa for the last week. He peaked about seven or eight days ago and the race, I think, froze in some respect and it froze with him at top.

But Joe Biden, the other current is, as Trump gets away with this, and as outrage builds among Democratic activist, people think we better go with the safe choice. We better go with -- and Biden's entire message over the last week on TV and in his speeches is, I'm the one who can beat Trump. Don't worry about anything else. So, I think we're going to have to wait until Monday night to see which of these currents, you know, pushes Sanders, Biden, or a surprise.

BRINKLEY: I think -- agreed. But I think Joe Biden's got to do something dramatic over the weekend. I think the idea that I'm the alternative to Trump, I'll bring back civility, the good days of America, I think he's got to punch Trump really hard.

MCKINNON: And he's got John Kerry is out there telling him to do that.

LEMON: That doesn't animate the person who -- he needs to animate young people.

BRINKLEY: He does. He's got to show that -- the weakness Biden has right now that Bernie's going to go after Trump and Elizabeth Warren, while Biden may not. And people wants some red meat. If you've got to defend your honor, he's been drug through the mud here for months on end and Joe Biden needs to go a real tough swing just to convince those swing voters that I'm going to be fighting. He's been called sleepy Joe, he's got to show himself to be fighting Joe.

LEMON: Yes. Thank you all, I appreciate it.

BRINKLEY: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you so much. So before we leave you tonight, I just want you to see the Los Angeles Lakers tribute to NBA legend Kobe Bryant. It was their first game since Kobe and his 13-year-old daughter Gianna were killed in a helicopter crash along with seven other people. The team placed flowers and a jersey of Kobe and Gianna on two seats on the Lakers bench and then they also -- there were jerseys on every seat in the arena.

[22:55:03]

At a ceremony before the game, Usher sang Amazing Grace, and the team held a 24.2 second moment of silence, to symbolized Kobe and Gianna's jersey numbers. Lebron James also gave a speech honoring Bryant and debuted a new tattoo dedicated to the Black Mamba on Instagram. Thanks for watching. Our live special coverage of the impeachment trial of Donald Trump continues with Anderson Cooper.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening, an agreement between both parties puts us possibly days away from an end to the Senate impeachment trial, but not the controversy that's formed it. The New York Times is reporting tonight a more revelations that an unpublished manuscript by John Bolton, a meeting about nine months ago in which President Trump told his former National Security Adviser to insist in the pressure to put on Ukraine for investigations. Attending that meeting were Rudy Giuliani, Mick Mulvaney and the president's Chief Counsel, Pat Cipollone, who last Tuesday on the first day of the trial said the calling Bolton as a witness would be, quote, "not right."