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Don Lemon Tonight
John Bolton Gave A Titillating Hint About His Upcoming Book; More Than 2,000 Former Department Of Justice Officials Call On Bill Barr To Resign; USA Today: Group Of Federal Judges Call Emergency Meeting, Express Concern About Department of Justice's Intervention In Cases; President Trump Lashes Out At Former President Obama Over The Economy; The Trump Fact Check. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired February 17, 2020 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Ivan Watson, CNN.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: The news continues. Let's turn things over now to Don Lemon and "CNN TONIGHT."
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is a special edition of CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. Thank you so much. Happy President's Day.
John Bolton breaking his silence. Less than two weeks after the president's impeachment's victory. Speaking tonight to some 1,200 people in a public appearance at Duke University. And you can bet that he is getting under this president's skin. Even though he is keeping his cards very close to his chest when it comes to what actually is in his book.
Asked if he agrees with President Trump's constant refrain that his call with Ukraine's president was, his word, perfect. Well, he's how Bolton answers. He answers with a tease. He'll say -- he says you'll love chapter 14.
And here's what he says about that New York Times report last month that his manuscript alleged that Trump directed him to help with Ukraine pressure -- the Ukraine pressure campaign.
A report that Bolton's lawyers have denied -- not denied, quote, "for all the focus on Ukraine and impeachment trial, to me there are portions of the manuscript that deal with Ukraine. I view that as the sprinkles on an ice cream sundae in terms of the book. This is an effort to write history. I did the best I can. We'll see what happens with the censorship."
Seems like a good time to point out that while Bolton's book is under review the White House is not attempting to stop him from speaking publicly.
The national security adviser who was in and out of the Oval Office on a daily basis clearly knows more than he is telling. So, so far anyway going onto say this, he says, "I'm not asking for martyrdom. I knew, I think I knew what I was getting into."
So, this has to make you wonder what John Bolton would have said if he had been called to testify under oath in the impeachment trial.
Well, that as more than 2,000 former DOJ officials are calling on the Attorney General Bill Barr to resign. Officials who served in both Republican and Democratic administrations and their statement with signature after signature absolutely slamming Barr.
Quote, "It is unheard of for the department's top leaders to overrule line prosecutors who are following established policies in order to get preferential treatment to a close associate of the president, as Attorney General Bill Barr did in the Stone case. It is even more outrageous for the attorney general to intervene as he did here after the president publicly condemned the sentencing recommendation that line prosecutors had already filed in court."
Outrageous. Unheard of. And a clear sign that this is getting to be a break-the- glass-in-case-of-emergency situation. A group of federal judges are calling an emergency meeting tomorrow to discuss intervention in cases by DOJ officials and the president. That is according to USA Today.
But here's the fact. The fact is, statements and emergency meetings really won't make a bit of a difference to this president. He wants what he wants and his attorney general seems to be happy to give it to him exactly that. What he wants.
A White House official telling CNN tonight that the president hasn't changed his mind about Barr in spite of calls for resignation. And why would he? All had had to do was just tweet. That he thought the sentencing recommendation for his long-time crony Roger Stone who was found guilty of seven felonies including witness tampering, lying to Congress and obstructing justice in a case that out of the Mueller investigation was horrible and unfair.
And Barr overrule the recommendation. Prompting all four federal prosecutors on that case to quit in protest. Things have changed since Barr said this. This is back in 1991.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM BARR, THEN ATTORNEY GENERAL NOMINEE: It is the attorney general's responsibility to enforce the law even handedly and with integrity. The attorney general must ensure the administration of justice, the enforcement of the law is above and away from politics.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And let's not forget it was just days ago when we learned Barr in a hush hush move ordered a U.S. attorney to take a second look at some sensitive cases including the case of ex-Trump national security adviser Michael Flynn who pleaded guilty back in 2017 to lying to the FBI. But it seems this president won't let a guilty plea stand in the way when it comes to defending a member of team Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Michael Flynn, General Flynn is a wonderful man. I think he's been treated very, very unfairly by the media.
He was just doing his job.
Well, I feel badly for General Flynn. I feel very badly. He's led a very strong life and I feel very badly.
[22:05:05]
And what they did to General Flynn is very unfair in my opinion.
They ought to be ashamed of themselves what they've done to General Flynn.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: In the face of all that Bill Barr claims he won't be bullied.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARR: I'm not going to be bullied or influenced by anybody. And I said at that time whether it's Congress, some newspaper, editorial boards or the president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He says he won't be bullied. But he sure seems to be doing exactly what the president wants. Doesn't he.
Let's bring in now CNN National Security White House Correspondent, Vivian Salama, also White House Correspondent, Kaitlan Collins, "The New York Times" Frank Bruni, and "Washington Post's" Philip Bump.
Good evening to one and all.
Vivian, I'm going to start with you. You're at John Bolton's first public appearance today since the impeachment trial. He reiterated that he would testify, right?
VIVIAN SALAMA, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: That's right. In fact, he was asked specifically, Don, whether why he chose to agree to be subpoenaed by the Senate or to go to the Senate if he was subpoena and why he did not agree to do that for the House.
The question came from students and it actually elicited applause from the audience because people really wanting to know why he was distinguishing from the tune. He gave a long drawn out explanation. Referring to his deputy national security adviser Charles Kupperman and his legal action trying to decipher between the congressional subpoena and executive privilege.
Of course, that was dismissed eventually and there was never really a decision made by, you know, in the end of it. But what he said was interesting. He -- his comments essentially said that he either you have the congressional subpoena and you have -- you have executive power and he kept referring to the First Amendment saying, Mr. First Amendment essentially prevailed.
And so, it was something that he kept on repeating over and over again. And that got a lot of push back from the organizers where they said, well, if you're such a believer in the First Amendment and that's why you decided that ultimately you would comply with the Senate subpoena, then why don't you just go out there and give a press conference and say what you have to say.
And so, he referred to the prepublication process that's holding up his manuscript right now at the White House. This dispute that he has saying well, you know, I can't really speak openly while that process is taking place.
And so, it was a double edge sword and something that really actually elicited an interesting response from the audience here who were wondering why he's even distinguishing between the House and the Senate process in the first place.
LEMON: He is getting -- was he getting paid for this, Vivian?
SALAMA: So, you know, both myself and our producer Jason Morris asked repeatedly today whether or not he was getting paid and no one was giving us a straight answer about it. They said they don't discuss such things.
I can tell you that he does get paid for a lot of the public speaking engagements. A lot of them abroad especially that he goes to. And it's not uncommon for a government official to get paid. Some of them big bucks for public appearances like this. And so, while we haven't had an -- we haven't got a straight answer it's not -- it's not unheard of.
LEMON: Yes. And it's certainly a good promotion for his upcoming book. Kaitlan, I want to bring you in now. We have seen this battle play out between Bolton and the White House over the contents of this book. I mean, how do they feel about him speaking out now?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I don't think there's --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: He's always not really saying anything.
COLLINS: Yes. And he's also speaking out behind but closed doors only at events that a few people can go to like Vivian was in the room with no cameras or any audio recordings. And obviously, the White House is not pleased with John Bolton. But I don't really think any audience is pleased with him.
Because the White House views him as essentially the president has painted him as a liar, saying essentially that he's going out here and talking about these conversations he had with the president. And then Democrats are equally not happy with John Bolton because he
did not come before the House. There was that fight with Charlie Kupperman, his deputy of course over that.
So, really, it does seem to people, to John Bolton's critics that he is just trying to sell books by teasing it like going to events like this and saying well, did you think it was a perfect call? And he answers you'll love chapter 14 of my book.
So, that's really the big question. But he did hint that that book could get delayed. He was saying he hoped it ultimately would not. But it does seem that it does seem to be something he thinks could happen.
LEMON: Yes. Frank Bruni, I mean, this is an exactly a profile in courage. Because boy, wait, I can tell you a whole lot and -- but I won't.
FRANK BRUNI, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No, it's a profile --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Read the book.
BRUNI: It's a profile in coyness (Ph), right?
LEMON: Yes.
BRUNI: Courage. You know, here's the thing, though. At the end of the day, so this book could be delayed actually. I mean, in book -- in book industry circles for them to be still deciding whether anything is going to be taken out this close to publication date is pretty extraordinary.
One way or another we are going to know what was in the manuscript as it exists right now. We already know a lot that's in the book. A lot of people have looked at this manuscript. A lot of people have touched it. Copies that are probably all over the place.
[22:10:04]
The White House would be very foolish to sensor this. Because they may -- they may eliminate the possibility of the book appearing as it's supposed to. They are not going to hide this information from the public. It will get out just as stuff has gotten out already.
LEMON: Can I ask you something as someone who has written books, right?
BRUNI: Yes.
LEMON: Does he uses the excuse of a prepublication deal as to why he can't talk. Does that take away your First Amendment rights?
BRUNI: No, no. What he's saying with that essentially, he's saying it in a veil -- what he's saying is, I don't want to step on my own book.
LEMON: Yes.
BRUNI: I don't want to hold a press conference and tell you what's in my book because I want you to buy my book and I want big sales. That's the way to translate that.
LEMON: OK. So, Ukraine part in the book, and this is a quote, Philip. "Sprinkles on an ice cream sundae." So, OK, what else are we going to learn?
PHILIP BUMP, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, WASHINGTON POST: All right. So, David Graham from The Atlantic had a great rejoin for that, which is if you take away the toppings in ice cream sundaes it's just a plain vanilla. Right? Which I think is --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: It's a soft serve.
BUMP: Exactly.
LEMON: Or just regular ice cream, right?
BUMP: I mean, I think Frank's point is well taken about the fact that all this is going to come take out. And I just can't not go back to that vote in the Senate in which Republicans said no, we don't want to hear Bolton's testimony. Knowing this was coming. This train has been on the track for months now. This thing is bearing down on them they had an opportunity to make him come and testify under oath and ask him questions and actually interrogate him on some of the claims that he's making.
Now this book is going to come out either in the book form or through leaks into the press and all the stuff is going to come out.
LEMON: Is it possible some of them had read it? Or is it possible someone at the White House said don't you dare --
BUMP: Well, I think that -- I think that's certainly likely.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: -- know what's in this book.
BUMP: Yes, I think that's certainly likely. I doubt many of them read it. I mean, from what we read a lot of the people that were voting, senators hadn't paid much attention to the case anyway.
LEMON: Yes.
BRUNI: I don't think they've read it, Don, but I bet you some of them have heard more about the book.
BUMP: I think they've read it in the press.
LEMON: Right.
BRUNI: Because they're much more plugged into the circle of people who might have read it.
LEMON: Yes. Absolutely. OK. Vivian, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Kaitlan, Frank, Philip, stick around because we have lots more to talk about. Thousands, literally, thousands of former DOJ officials calling on Bill Barr to resign. But is that just going to make the president like his attorney general even more?
[22:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: A giant vote of no confidence today in Attorney General Bill Barr. More than 2,000 former DOJ officials calling on him to resign. Accusing Barr of doing President Trump's personal bidding and damaging the department's reputation and integrity and the respect for the rule of law.
Kaitlan Collins is back, Frank Bruni as well, and Philip Bump. Thanks for sticking around. All of you. Philip, more than -- this is more than 2,000 former DOJ officials calling on A.G. to resign. A major rebuke for the person who is leading the Justice Department. We have the letter signed by all of these people. The alumni. It's really unprecedented.
BUMP: Yes. Well, it's sort of unprecedented. We've seen similar letters and oftentimes in this administration. There been other points at which a large group of people particularly after they decline to have follow up on Mueller obstruction --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: It was a letter. Right.
BUMP: -- a letter, for example. There was a similar letter. I was reminded when I saw this. Andrew Gillum when he's running for governor of Florida last -- or in 2018, he was asked if he thought his opponent Ron DeSantis was racist. He said well, the racist says he's a racist.
LEMON: Right.
BUMP: They're really evocative allocution of the -- of what he's trying to say. But this is how I look at this. Look, I'm not an expert on the DOJ. These guys are experts on the DOJ. And they are the ones who are saying something extremely problematic is happening. And so, in that lens this strikes me as being particularly noteworthy.
LEMON: But this is alumni over, is it nine administrations, both Republican and Democrat, which is very interesting.
So, Kaitlan, the president views on Barr these days what are you hearing over at the White House?
COLLINS: The White House and the president's aides are maintaining that he's fine with Bill Barr, he's got confidence in him and that he's not going anywhere. But it's pretty noticeable that the president's reaction to that interview that Barr did last week has been relatively muted.
He's only tweeted that one time about it. And other than that, he's really strayed from talking about it a lot. So, I think that that does say something that the president was saying that. Because there were questions on whether or not this was coordinated at the time. Whether how much of a White House was given a heads up over what Bill Barr had said and how specific of a heads up.
But, Don, I know this president really well, I cover him and I've covered him every day since he's been office. It's really hard to see him signing off on the attorney general telling him to stop tweeting and stop, essentially interfering with DOJ business.
And you saw the president tweet that he believes it's his right to get involved if he wants to. And that's really been the talking point. And you've seen aides carry on since that interview happened.
LEMON: He can't help himself, Kaitlan, right? I mean, especially it's worse that he can't help himself especially when it comes to the Twitter machine.
COLLINS: And he doesn't like being told what to do.
LEMON: Yes.
COLLINS: And that was essentially what Bill Barr was saying. He was saying back off, let me do this and stay out of this. Because of course then it creates that appearance of political influence that the president has not helped to combat at all.
LEMON: Frank, -- you should see Frank. Frank, why are you shaking your head now?
BRUNI: Because that's not what Bill Barr was doing. What Bill Barr was doing was saying, if you call out the favorite -- don't make it so obvious that I'm showing favoritism.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Don't say the quiet part out loud.
BRUNI: And Donald Trump is sometimes he's acting very foolish ways but he's not such a fool that he would get rid of Bill Barr. Bill Barr has been his best cabinet member if the metric is utter civility.
LEMON: Considering --
(CROSSTALK)
BRUNI: And he knows that. He knows that.
LEMON: Considering speaking out, you have all these, the 2,000 people speaking out against Bill Barr. Especially some Democratic candidates also calling for his resignation. Won't that make it like him even more Trump like Barr even more? BRUNI: Yes. I mean, Trump thinks that he's most right when he's under
attack. He's going to look at this and say that's right. That means -- that means Barr is like me. He is rattling the establishment; he is rattling tradition. He is flying in the face of it.
I think this makes them thicker -- thick as thieves or thicker than thieves wherever you would do that. It's interesting when you watch people around Trump, they begin over time to absorb his qualities and to reflect them. And I think Barr is the best example of that.
[22:20:00]
LEMON: Philip, Donald Ayer who is a former deputy attorney general under President George H.W. Bush is one of the people calling for Barr's resignation. This is what he told Wolf Blitzer earlier talking about what Barr didn't say in his interview with ABC.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD AYER, FORMER DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: He didn't say anything about stopping and doing the things that he was doing. He didn't say that he was going to stop interfering in criminal cases that had been handled in the usual and ordinary way.
He didn't say that he was going to stop pursuing these lawsuits to defend the stonewalling against efforts of Congress that perform their traditional oversight functions. He didn't say that they were going to stop litigating the case involving the border wall where the president has put out a phony emergency declaration to avoid the appropriation power of the House which denied the money for the border wall.
They are litigating everything they can to give the president virtually unchecked powers. And that's Bill's vision of, and I really, I think always has been is vision. He's just never been able to try to realize it the way he is now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: To the point that Frank just made and what I said in my open, he is still doing exactly what the president wants him to do.
BUMP: Right. Yes. I mean, having this the whole thing on Thursday, it's like you were asked to give an alibi for a friend of yours. And he said, yes, he was at my house the whole night. And then the friend goes out and says yes, well, you know, I stepped out a couple of times and you have to go and Bill like, no, you were at my house the whole night. Right?
What Bill Barr said on that interview on ABC News was just don't do the tweeting. It's hard for me to do my job when you're doing the tweeting.
LEMON: Or do your job.
BUMP: Yes. Right. Like that was the statement that he was giving. So, yes, Donald Trump may have been frustrated by that. But at the end of the day, Donald Trump is taking away from that not Bill Barr is a bad guy. He's like, right, maybe I should --
BRUNI: It's really hard for me to corrupt if you keep on -- for me base on corrupt if you keep on drawing attention to it.
LEMON: You like that when I said it's hard for me to do your job.
BRUNI: Yes, yes, yes.
LEMON: Kaitlan listen, we saw the president -- I mean, literally take a victory lap at Daytona 500. And he also shot off a tweet likening himself to a king. Ok, what is that all about?
COLLINS: Yes. This is this tweet when the president was quoting the story from the New York Times. You see him there at the Daytona 500 where he did take that lap. When he was quoting the story about Peter Baker in the New York Times where they were quoting Ralph Waldo Emerson and they were saying, you know, when you strike the king you must kill him.
That was a quote that the president liked clearly. He was likening that to this impeachment attempt that you saw from Democrats. Though it was pretty clear back during the House inquiry that they were not going to successfully remove the president from office.
But this really just speaks to the mindset that the president has right now and how aides who have been speaking with the president, allies who spoke with him this weekend in Mar-a-Lago are describing him as how he feels newly empowered and vindicated in his opinion.
And you're seeing him not just revel in that and not just take a victory lap but he's also taking steps to right the wrongs he feels he's experienced over this last several years that he's been in office. And the question that people around him have is whether or not that's a pattern that you're going to see continue over the next eight months or so.
LEMON: Well, I think we all know the answer to that one. Likening himself to a king, Frank. Shocking.
BRUNI: Yes. I know. It never occurred to me that he might think of himself that way? Did it ever occur to you, Don?
LEMON: No, not at all.
BRUNI: Yes?
LEMON: Yes. That would be sarcasm. It doesn't sound like they were going to see the end of the president's vengeance tour, you know, who Kaitlan said, people were wondering over the next eight months or for however long even if he's reelected. That's -- we won't see the end of it.
BUMP: Yes. No, I mean, I think what we're seeing increasingly is him leveraging his position to aid his politics. Right? Which is sort of fascinating because the entire crux of the Ukraine investigation and the impeachment was that he tried to leverage his position to get Ukraine do stuff. Now we see him do it all the time. Right?
I mean, there's supposed to be a fine line between when you're campaigning and when you're actually doing the role of the presidency. That line doesn't exist anymore. It hasn't existed for several years. But now it's so ostentatious. I mean, this thing with going on Daytona 500. Yes, presidents have done these sorts of things before. But the way in which he sort of embraces using the presidency as this way of sort of encouraging his supporters to be even more supportive is really, really pretty striking. And I think that's what we're going to see continue.
BRUNI: He's taken what Alan Dershowitz said to heart.
BUMP: Yes. A hundred percent.
LEMON: Kaitlan, I've got to ask you, since the impeachment acquittal, right, has it fell felt different covering this administration? Has it felt different being at the White House or they feel -- do you feel they feel more emboldened? Are they being any more transparent or what's your feeling?
COLLINS: Well, at this point after going through the Russia investigation, the Mueller investigation of course and this impeachment, you're seeing aides also feel a bit emboldened around the president because they've been in this time where, you know, -- with the Mueller investigation they did not know how that was going to end.
Aides were pretty clear eyed about that at least privately. And the same happened with Ukraine. They were a bit shell shocked by it at the beginning. But you do get this sense of them being empowered as well among with the president.
[22:25:04]
And you do feel it is a turning point for him not necessarily in the way that's been described to the past where people have said, well this is the moment he became president. I mean, this is the moment where the president feels like he is really settled into this role.
He's bringing back loyalists like Hope Hicks, people who were with him in the beginning early days of the White House. Because he wants people that he feels like he can trust around him circling around him as he's heading into this reelection and you're really seeing him start to turn his eye to that.
And the question really is what that's going to look like. And it's so funny. I think back to whenever the impeachment inquiry was first starting. I texted someone that knows the president well and I asked how they thought this was going to end up. And they said an acquitted empowered president going into reelection. And Don, that's exactly what we have.
LEMON: Thank you all. I appreciate it.
Is the Justice Department under siege? I'm going to ask a former senior official who was serving under Sally Yates when she was fired from that department. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Pressure mounting inside the Justice Department as former DOJ officials call on current employees to speak out against the Attorney General Bill Barr. And even resign if necessary.
[22:30:06]
Let's discuss now. Matt Axelrod is here, he was serving at the Justice Department under Sally Yates when she was fired. Matt, so good to have you on. Thank you very much. Happy president's day. Listen. There has been turmoil inside the Justice Department from the beginning of this administration, but is it reaching a critical mass now?
MATTHEW AXELROD, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SENIOR OFFICIAL, OBAMA ADMINISTRATION: Yes. I think it is. I think last week in the beginning of this week you're seeing some fairly stunning developments. You saw last week the four prosecutors resign from the Roger Stone case. And then you saw the letter that you have been talking about on the show. Where over 2,000 DOJ alumni have signed on complaining about the Attorney General actions.
LEMON: So, let's talk more about that letter. The demanding Barr to resign that you just mentioned. Also calls on current officials to resign rather than carry out any directive that goes against their oath to ensure justice -- equal justice under the law. Do you see more people leaving in protest against Barr?
AXELROD: Well, look, time will tell. But I don't think so. And I don't think that the four attorneys who resigned from the case were leaving in protest of Barr. One resigned altogether. The other three withdrew from the case. And I think what is going on there, although we don't know for sure is, look, they were fulfilling their ethical obligation.
They filed a sentencing memorandum that laid out the position they thought was the right position for the Department of Justice to take on behalf of the American people and they were overruled. And they were overruled by the Attorney General. Which is something that never happens. In all my time at DOJ, I have never seen the Attorney General reach in and overrule career prosecutors in a publicly filed sentencing memorandum. That just doesn't happen.
But I don't expect to see people resign from the department. And frankly I hope that they don't. Because the department needs strong people, good public servants who are there doing their jobs the right way without fear of favor following facts and evidence and going where ever they lead.
That is what the DNA of the Justice Department is all about. The people who work there have that in their bones. And despite what the leadership is doing, I suspect and I know and have confidence that those people will continue to do their jobs the right way.
LEMON: OK. So, the question is do you think they should stay there continue to challenge them to speak out, I mean, the chance of Barr resigning are as good as zero, Matt. You know that. So, I mean, can there be a check on his actions? Any check on his actions?
AXELROD: So, look. I think we're talking about two separate things. One is career employees at the Department of Justice. And I don't think that just because you have political leadership that you may have quarrels with that you resign your post at DOJ. The public needs good people, people who are doing their jobs the right way to continue to do their jobs the right way. But what the American people also need is the Attorney General to do his job the right way. Right?
I served under five different attorneys general. Ash Kroft, Gonzalez, (Inaudible), Holder and Lynch. And every single one of them was quite clear about the mission of the Department of Justice to be to do things the right way. To follow the facts and the law without regard to politics especially and particularly when it comes to criminal cases, because that's the only way that criminal cases can have legitimacy is if they are done on the level.
And that's what I think we're talking about now, because what happened with both, I think a pattern of things leading up to this and then what happened last week has given rise to a real crisis of confidence as to -- that's what the current leadership of the Department of Justice is continuing to instill.
LEMON: I asked a question before the break, the Department of Justice is under siege. The reason I ask is, because USA Today, one of the reasons I ask is USA Today is reporting that a national association of federal judges called an emergency meeting tomorrow to talk about the Justice Department and the president intervening politically in sensitive cases. Under siege -- have we reached unprecedented territory here?
AXELROD: Yeah. I think that the department has been under siege for some time now, unfortunately. I think we've all become numb to it. Bu it is worth pointing out just how extraordinary a breech ii is for the president of the United States to weigh in publicly or privately for that matter on pending DOJ prosecution.
This president does it that it seems like once a week. Calling on either his enemies to be prosecuted and locked up or his allies to be let go. That is not normal. We have got used to it a little bit, but it's not normal. And that is what the Department of Justice has been wrestling with and having to deal with ever since the president took office. And yes, it has put a tremendous strain on the institution. And I think, you know this past week we have seen some of that strain for a burst out into the light.
[[2:35:06]
LEMON: Matt Axelrod, thank you, sir. I appreciate it.
AXELROD: Thank you.
LEMON: It's President Trump's day and it's president's day, I should say. Well, he is the president -- it's the president's day and President Trump is thinking about his predecessor. Why he is comparing himself to the former President Obama, again. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: President Trump tonight going after his favorite nemesis. President Barack Obama. On Twitter. Over their respective records on the economy. President Trump tweeting this morning 11 years ago today near the bottom of the worse recession. I'm sorry, Obama tweeted that. The bottom of the worst recession in generations, I signed a recovery act. Paving the way for more than a decade of economic growth and the longest streak of job creation in American history.
[22:40:00]
That sparked this from President Trump. Did you hear the latest con job President Obama is now trying to take credit for the economic boom taking place under the Trump administration? He had the weakest recovery since the great depression. Despite zero fed rate and massive quantitative easing. Now best job numbers ever.
OK. Let's discuss now. Catherine Rampell is here. Rob Astorino, good evening to both. We have been here so many times. President Trump continuously comparing his economic records to the former President Barack Obama. Give us the byline.
CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: OK, you know what I'm going to say.
LEMON: I know what you are --
RAMPELL: Because I say it every time.
LEMON: Too little and too much credit.
RAMPELL: Correct. Presidents do not control the economy. That said, if Trumps wants to compare the numbers I'm happy to do it. And basically the Trump economy is not appreciably different from the Obama economy. We spent $2 trillion on an unfunded tax cut for the wealthy and for corporations. And we got back to about the same level of -- pace of economic growth that we had in the second term of Obama.
Job growth was slightly stronger in the end of Obama's term, than it is today under Trump. Wage growth is was actually slightly stronger under Obama than it is today. If you adjust for inflation, although it's noisy and inaccurate under either frankly. So on, most of these numbers, there's not really any different. It's not like you can look at a chart and point to a spot and say a-ha that's where the red sea parted when Trump came into office and suddenly an economic miracle was unleashed. It's basically the same.
LEMON: Why -- just -- I remember during the election some of the candidates and the folks talking about these emergency meetings that they would have -- they had back in 2008 when Barack Obama was elected. Between McCain and the two candidates. Democratic and Republican candidates, because the economy they were afraid that it was literally going to go off of a cliff. Even with that, you say that President Obama had a huge advantage even though he took office during an economic meltdown. One of the worst in history.
ROB ASTORINO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, the advantage is the numbers, you know, plunged. I mean, he inherited a mess. There's no question about that. So, the numbers were down to like nothing. So, there was going to be growth no matter what.
But I'll tell you -- I think, Catherine, your wrong on one thing. There was a delineation mark. The night Trump got elected the market went sky rock and it's been up 60 percent since then. And that's good for a lot of Americans because half of the country is in the stock market. Either through their 401K. Their Investments, direct stock.
LEMON: Half of Americans own stock?
ASTORINO: They are in the market in some way. Their retirement phones, their 401 K. they are doing very well. I mean, we have right now the biggest consumer confidence, business confidence, including small business confidence. That's important. The Trump tax cuts started this. It started things moving. Obama's economy we were told that that was the new normal. Obama's economy was riding 35 miles an hour, right lane in the highway. And that was supposed to be the new normal.
Trump said no. I'm going to make some differences and he did. And America is reacted. And by the way, I think his numbers would even be higher if we weren't in a trade war. But that's something long term that America will be positive about. And here's the biggest thing. Hillary Clinton didn't run on Obama's economy as a third term. She ran from it. And it was the number one issue in 2016. And that is why people wanted a change. And right now it's the number one issue. And Trump gets extraordinarily high marks, deservedly so.
LEMON: Hang on. Hang on, because I got to bring in Daniel Dillan, but when you talk about that delineation and that there was an inflection point in that. The President -- President Trump has it also -- what's his name --
RAMPELL: Kevin Hasset.
LEMON: Kevin Hasset also talks about that. And according to every single fact check that inflection point is just a fancy word. I said, this is a quote from one of the fact checks. Fancy word for talking point. If he's arguing that conditions since Trump was elected was significantly different than conditions were before, it's hard to see such a turning point in major economic yardsticks such as job and unemployment or wages. So, there wasn't a real inflection.
(CROSSTALK)
ASTORINO: It was. The day he got elected the market has gone berserk. It was up 32 percent under Obama. It's up 60 percent. It's 30,000.
RAMPELL: At this point in Obama's presidency the S&P 500 was up 59 percent. At this point in Trump's presidency, it's up 49 percent.
ASTORINO: OK. RAMPELL: So, it was actually better under Obama.
LEMON: I have to bring in Daniel Dale for a fact check. Daniel, what do you have?
DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: I'll give you another yardstick. GDP growth. Under the first three years of Trump, we have had growth of 2.4 percent, 2.9 percent and then 2.3 percent. That's an average of 2.5 Under Obama in his last three years. We had 2.5., 2.9., 1.6 for an average of 2.3. So, if you're a Trump supporter you'll say 2.5 is bigger than 2.3. It is. Of course. But it's not dramatically different. This isn't the economy taking off like a rocket ship as Trump says.
[22:45:00]
If you're a Trump supporter, you'll also point to the 1.6 at the end of the Obama era and say, look, it was going in a bad direction. That's a fair argument. However the argument from Trump that this is two separate economies. They are awful, Obama era won in the fantastic. Trump era won, it just isn't born out in key metrics like that.
LEMON: Catherine, President Trump promised huge growth. He promised huge growth, is he delivering them now?
RAMPELL: No. Once again he promised us 4, 5, 6 percent growth. Everybody acknowledged -- everybody who actually knew anything about the economy. Who had looked at the structural challenges that this economy faces, including the aging of the population, said that it was non-sense. Trump prompted it anyway. His advisers prompt anyway. As Daniel just showed us we have about the same pace of economic growth around 2.3 percent last year. Average of 2.5 percent under Trump's three years so far that we had at the end of Obama's tenure.
So, it's not appreciably different. And that is despite the fact, by the way, that we have had massive fiscal stimulus in the form of tax cuts and additional spending and despite the fact that the fed has actually been much more accommodative than Trump's economic advisers predicted. Trump has blamed the fed for supposedly holding back growth.
But in fact, if you look at what his own economic team forecast, the fed would keep rates at. They thought that monetary policy would be tighter than it is right now. So, the fed has actually been helping him. Even though he doesn't give them credit.
LEMON: OK, Rob, you'll get the first word on the other side of the break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:50:00]
LEMON: So back with me Catherine Rampell, Rob Astorino, we've heard our fact checker Daniel Dale is with us, as well. I promised you the first --
ASTORINO: I forgot what I was going to say. No, no, no.
(LAUGHTER)
The economy is doing well and people know it and what is driving the Democrats nuts now is -- and it's smart. You go after your opponents' positives, right? Donald Trump gets very high marks on the economy and deservingly so. So now they are going to try to cherry pick, they are going to try to attack but ultimately, if it comes down to a Donald Trump or let say Bernie Sanders, people are going to have to decide.
LEMON: Rob, here's what I have to say. I don't think people, people don't disagree that the economy is doing well. It's the fact that he has to lie about it.
ASTORINO: He's not lying about it.
LEMON: That he inherited a mess --
(CROSSTALK)
Hold on. He didn't inherit a mess. He inherited one of the best economies ever from -- if you want to talk about inheriting a mess, you would look at what the former president inherited. He didn't inherited a mess. Basically, what he's doing is continuing the momentum that president Barack Obama had and if he would just say I -- we have continued that momentum and here is how we have capitalized on it.
ASTORINO: It wasn't momentum --
LEMON: Rob. Rob.
ASTORINO: And now it going like this.
RAMPELL: No, it's the same exact pace.
LEMON: It's the same thing, Rob.
ASTORINO: Do you know what they predicted?
LEMON: Do you read the fact checks? Do you? Do you?
ASTORINO: The fact checks.
LEMON: Do you know what the economists say?
ASTORINO: We had this conversation what -- in the summer.
LEMON: We had this conversation a while ago.
ASTORINO: We were both saying. Not me. You were both saying and the other guests, we're heading towards a recession because the experts are saying we're heading towards a recession.
LEMON: I never said we're heading toward as recession.
ASTORINO: You know what.
LEMON: I would --
ASTORINO: The economists have been wrong all the time. All the time. You know what they predicted when Trump came in? Unemployment was going to go up to 5 percent, it's down to its lowest debt.
LEMON: Who is they?
ASTORINO: They, the same economist who had the --
RAMPELL: Unemployment was at 5 percent.
ASTORINO: Huh?
RAMPELL: Unemployment was at 5 percent.
ASTORINO: No, it was lower than that. It was at 4.8 or whatever it was.
RAMPELL: Whatever, it was around five.
ASTORINO: It's going to go up. It's down. Jobs, 2 million, 7 million jobs.
LEMON: Speaking of jobs. Let's talk about the job numbers now, Daniel. President Trump says that they are the best ever. Give us the reality.
DALE: He doesn't specify what he means by jobs numbers. If you look at the unemployment rate, it is the lowest in 50 years. Not quite ever, but quite low. It's important to note, again, the trend. He did inherit a steady decline from the post-recession peaks of 2009, 2010.
If he's talking about job numbers in terms of job growth, job creation, as he often does, this isn't even close to the best ever. About 7 million jobs as Trump likes to say have been added during his presidency. Over the same period at the end of the Obama era, it was more than 8 million jobs.
And as CNN's Chris Isidore recently pointed out in an article on our website, Jimmy Carter over the first three years of his own presidency, he's not exactly known for the great economy had 10 million jobs added. Bill Clinton over that period had 8.5 million. Lyndon Johnson had around 8.5 million with labor force, about half the size. So, in terms of job creation, no one, certainly not me is going to sniff a 7 million more jobs. That's a good thing. But this simply is not unprecedented.
LEMON: So again, again, Rob, we talk about the truth. There is no reason for him to exaggerate, because President Obama's average job growth in the last 35 years in office beats President Trump's first 35 months, I should say 35 month -- 35 years would be a long time, 35 months in office. I mean, doesn't President Obama deserve some credit here? I mean, you look at the actual numbers, they are better.
ASTORINO: Look, I've said on your show President Obama inherited absolute mess. He absolutely did. And to his credit, he was able to get things going. But it was not where it should have been and when --
RAMPELL: But it's the same today as it was then.
ASTORINO: The --
LEMON: How do you -- wait, wait, wait, hold on. Let me ask this question and you can answer. What is what it should have been when it was in the, you know, water?
ASTORINO: This is -- when he said basically this is the new normal, folks and all those old jobs aren't coming back and Trump ran and said --
LEMON: What should it have been?
ASTORINO: Well, again --
LEMON: Considering it was a great depression or recession, what should it have been?
ASTORINO: Look, look. Jobs came back slowly, but the Obama administration, you can ask any business leaders. They were taxing. They were regulating on top of regulations and they were attacking business and when you do that, it's like having a foot on somebody's throat. OK, they can breathe, but they are not breathing at all --
[22:55:07]
LEMON: Hold on. What I'm saying is that all anecdotal.
ASTORINO: It's not anecdotal.
LEMON: There's no one -- isn't not anecdotal -- what it should had been.
RAMPELL: It is absolutely. OK, so first of all --
(CROSSTALK)
ASTORINO: It could had been better. It could had been better.
LEMON: Anything could have been better or it could had been worse. I mean, come on.
RAMPELL: You keep on talking about how the economy was stuck at 35 miles per hour or whatever. It still going at 35 miles an hour.
ASTORINO: It's not.
RAMPELL: Yes. It is. The numbers are exactly the same.
ASTORINO: Why is consumer confidence the highest? Why is business confidence still highest? Why are they investing?
RAMPELL: I'll tell you.
ASTORINO: But that was the issue in 2016.
RAMPELL: Investment has actually fallen for the last three quarters.
ASTORINO: That was for what? It was the last quarter.
RAMPELL: For the last three quarter.
ASTORINO: Back up.
RAMPELL: No, it was down.
ASTORINO: And you know what?
RAMPELL: That is three quarters. It's been shrinking.
LEMON: You won't listen to the facts or reality.
ASTORINO: The reality is in '16 it was based on the economy. You tell me why Hillary Clinton didn't run on the Obama economy.
RAMPELL: I can tell you.
ASTORINO: Why didn't she?
RAMPELL: I have an answer for that, because --
ASTORINO: Well, she had the answer and it was wrong.
RAMPELL: I'll tell you the answer.
LEMON: Let her answer.
RAMPELL: I'll tell you the answer. It's because the pace was steady but not spectacular --
RAMPELL: I just said that.
LEMON: Hold on.
RAMPELL: It's still steady but not spectacular. It's the exact same pace. But when you have a steady but not spectacular pace for going on for more than 10 years now, you end up at a higher level. Think about it this way. OK, if you are climbing a staircase, right? And you take one step per year, so it's like this, at the end of 10 years, you're still taking one step per year, but you're 10 steps higher. Its levels versus rates of change. So the level of the economy is better. I'm not claiming otherwise.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Don't blow his time.
(LAUGHTER)
RAMPELL: The level of the economy is better. Unemployment has continued to fall therefore it is lower today than it was in 2016.
LEMON: All right, I got to run. I got to get to the top of the hour.
ASTORINO: OK.
LEMON: Thank you, Daniel. Thank you, Rob. Thank you, Catherine.
RAMPELL: I'm trying, here.
LEMON: Facts, folks. Facts. I know they're hard to find these days. John Bolton speaking out tonight but hinting that what he is saying about Ukraine and the president is just the tip of the iceberg.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
