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Don Lemon Tonight

Coronavirus Used as a Political Football; New State Show Another Victim of Community Transmission; Stock Markets Plunge for a Week Now; Experts Reminds People of Their Health and Hygiene; Answering People's Question On The Coronavirus With Dr. Sanjay Gupta; World Health Organization Warned Of Disease X Years Ago; President Trump To Nominate Rep. Ratcliffe For Intel Chief. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired February 28, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: I forgot. I forgot about the tan suit. I'm sorry.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Career end.

LEMON: I apologize.

CUOMO: Yes. You mean that. The guy made a mockery of the president who still haven't recovered.

LEMON: I'm sorry, man.

CUOMO: There are no drama.

LEMON: No drama. No drama and we say no leaks and no chaos.

CUOMO: And a straight face. I will never play poker with Kushner. I will tell you that right now. You are coming out of there broke. Because you are getting no tails off that face.

LEMON: You want to send him to take the lie detector. Right?

CUOMO: All day. All day. I want Kushner to vouch for me about anything.

LEMON: Send in Kushner.

CUOMO: Call and leak the cake? No.

LEMON: No.

CUOMO: He's got cake on his face.

LEMON: Send in Kushner.

CUOMO: I see no cake.

LEMON: Did he eat the Cheetos? No. Not him. But yet, listen, you know we got -- I guess you report it. I was getting ready for my show because there's another case.

CUOMO: Another case. And I'll tell you why it's key, Oregon did the test.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And now the CDC can verify it.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: But we just have to know the unknown is scary.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Look at the flu is doing. We have had the most dead - children. You know, heaven forbid but it's true. With the flu that we've had since we started counting except what they dealt with H1N1. And people don't get as panicked about that because they know what they're dealing with. The unknown.

LEMON: I don't like to be hyperbolic about this since I've covered so many. I remember when this was -- when I first got into the national news when I worked for NBC, I went to Canada to cover SARS. And I just -- I remember people being so afraid about it.

CUOMO: Sure.

LEMON: I think I've told you this story. When I remember interviewing this man who had SARS. And we drove up to his house, me and the news crew. And we threw the microphone onto his lawn, his wife came out to pick up the microphone, she took it into the house. I stood on the front lawn on the sidewalk. Interviewed him through his window. And then we left the microphone. Drove away. And put the interview on NBC nightly news.

CUOMO: That's more of a story about you.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: No. But what I'm saying is -- no, I'm talking about how afraid we were of it. And that was SARS. This has killed more people than SARS. So I don't like to be hyperbolic about these things.

But when you think about that and I hear people being cavalier about it saying, this will be like SARS. This will be, you know like, Ebola, this will like whatever. But this has killed more people than that. And listen, who knows how bad it's going to be. But we're not here to make people afraid or to frighten people. We're here to give them information.

CUOMO: That's exactly right.

LEMON: So that they can protect themselves.

CUOMO: The more information they have, the better. LEMON: So, the White House and the apologists and state-run

television and conservative media who are trying to tell you that we are trying to make the president look bad. We're not. They're doing a good enough job themselves of doing that.

So, we don't have to do that, and we're not trying to do that. We're just trying to give you the information so that you can be safe. That's it. We don't -- there's no reason to do that. They are doing a good enough job themselves.

CUOMO: And the more information you get about the number of cases --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: The better you can protect them -- yourself.

CUOMO: -- it's counterintuitive politically.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: It makes sense practically. They want to keep the number of cases down. LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: But what happens when you have a higher number of confirmed cases that you'll see people start going home.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: This is not Ebola. One of the reasons Ebola didn't communicate to other places that people died so quickly from that. They didn't have time to go anywhere else. Really a tragic situation.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: So, give the information out. Let them test. Transparency will make people feel better. Economically, socially, every way that matters.

LEMON: Yes. And you know what? No one is more respected than Dr. Sanjay Gupta. And he is going to be on the show tonight answering your questions. So, make sure you send them in to at CNN on the social media.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Sanjay Gupta, good man. Smart man.

LEMON: Yes. Yes. So, we got to make some room for him. So, I'll see you. Make sure you feel better. And I'll talk to you soon.

CUOMO: I know no weakness.

LEMON: Yes. Hand OP (Ph).

This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon. Thank you so much for joining us, everyone. We have a lot to get to. A

very important program tonight. Because as the outbreak of coronavirus spreads around the world in the United States.

And as the Dow Jones tanked for a seventh straight day President Trump appears to be on a mission to downplay its impact and to blame the Democrats for the meltdown in the financial markets that's wiped away trillions of dollars in value.

Ignoring his own administration's lackluster initial response to the outbreak. And blaming others. Strictly for political purposes. Today, the 65th case of coronavirus was confirmed here in the United States.

But tonight, the president still insisting that only 15 people are affected. Holding a political rally tonight in South Carolina. Dismissing the outbreak as the Democrats new hoax.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: One of my people came up to me and said Mr. President, they tried to beat you on Russia, Russia, Russia. That didn't work out too well. They couldn't do it.

They tried the impeachment hoax. That was on a perfect conversation. They tried anything they tried it over and over. They have been doing it since you got in. It's all turning -- they lost. It's all turning.

[22:05:03]

Think of it. Think of it. And this is the new hoax.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, you know the famous saying let no threat of a deadly global pandemic come between a president and his political rally? Me neither. There's no famous saying like that.

We know Wall Street is rattled by the worldwide outbreak of the coronavirus. The Dow closing down more than 350 points today. For a total loss of more than 3,000 points over the past week.

But again today, like he's been doing all week. He is blaming the market free fall on Democrats.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think they're not very happy with the Democrat candidates. When they see them, I think that has an impact.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Or it's the threat of a global pandemic. That is the classics gaslighting by Trump. Here's what he said on Wednesday when he finally had to publicly acknowledge that coronavirus is a growing threat globally. And that fear is spreading through financial markets. But he didn't blame the outbreak on the panic among investors. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think the financial markets are very upset when they look at the Democrat candidates on the stage making fools out of themselves and say we haven't had a president like this. And there's always a possibility it's an election. You know, who knows what happens. I think we're going to win. I think we're going to win by a lot.

But when they look at the statements made by the people stand behind -- standing behind those podiums, I think that has a huge effect. Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney following in the boss's footsteps today claiming the administration has been all out against coronavirus but blaming the news media for not getting the word out to the American people. Here's Mulvaney speaking before a conservative political group just today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICK MULVANEY, ACTING WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: We took extraordinary steps four, five weeks ago. Why didn't you hear about it? What was still going on four or five weeks ago? Impeachment. And that's all the press wanted to talk about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Trump's impeachment is a historic event. And the news media would not be doing its job properly if we did not cover it. But reporters can walk and chew gum at the same time. Maybe if there was a daily press briefing at the White House someone in the administration would have been informing Americans about the spread of coronavirus.

Mulvaney now claims the news is focusing on the outbreak because it's out to get the president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MULVANEY: I got a note today from a reporter saying what are you going today to call the markets. I'm like, really, what I might do today call on the markets is tell the people to turn their television off for 24 hours.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, that's how a top official in the Trump White House responds to growing fears in financial markets over the coronavirus outbreak. People are scared. And their advice, turn the TVs off for a day.

Then there's White House economic adviser Larry Kudlow. Out on TV this morning down playing the virus and saying this about the plunging markets.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LARRY KUDLOW, DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: I still

think long term investors should give serious thought to coming back in or adding to their positions in the stock market. It looks like we will weather this and this is not going to last forever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Look, it's up to you at home. Your family and your financial adviser whether you think it's a good time to buy stocks. Hopefully you're getting good expert financial or experts' impartial advice. Are you getting that from this administration?

And just for the record, federal health officials say the outbreak is going to get worse. And they say that's not a question of if, but when. That's Trump administration gaslighting again. Remember, this is what President Trump said last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We have done an incredible job. We're going to continue. It's going to disappear one day, it's like a miracle. It will disappear. And from our shores, you know, it could get worse before it gets better. Maybe it will go away. We'll see what happens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: But he most egregious gaslighting comes from Donald Trump Jr. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, JR., DONALD TRUMP'S SON: We've seen this play out for four years. Anything they can use to try to hurt Trump they will. The play book is old at this point. But for them to try to take a pandemic and seemingly hope that it comes here and kills millions of people so that they could end Donald Trump's streak of winning is a new level of sickness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:09:56]

LEMON: That is despicable. A despicable and frankly ridiculous accusation that says a lot more about Donald Trump Jr. than it says about anybody else.

And while the Trump administration is blaming everyone else for their tepid response to coronavirus, there was Vice President Mie Pence. He's heading up the White House task force. Must be hard at work on this issue, right?

Where in the world was Mike Pence today? Well, he was campaigning and pressing the flash in Florida. At events in West Palm Beach and at a fancy fundraiser on Long -- Longboat Key. Where it's a $2,500 to get in the door. And a $5,000 -- $5,000 to take a picture with the vice president. That's according to an invite obtained by the Tampa bay Times. And $25,000 to buy a dinner with him too.

So, there you go. Pass the blame, attack your opponents. Hold a rally. And fund raise. All while the coronavirus outbreak gets worse.

Coronavirus is a serious threat. Up next. Our very own Dr. Sanjay Gupta on symptoms to lookout for. When to see your doctor and when to get tested. He's also answering your questions from Facebook, from Twitter, Instagram, and so on. So, if you have questions send them to at CNN Tonight. We'll see him in just a moment.

[22:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back. Remember we're going to be answering your questions about coronavirus. If you have them you can tweet us at CNN Tonight. Also, Instagram the same thing at CNN Tonight.

The president tonight dolling out the blame at a rally in South Carolina as his administration is under increasing pressure for how it is handling the coronavirus outbreak.

Joining me now is CNN White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan, thank you so much. Kaitlan is in Charleston, South Carolina. Kaitlan, President Trump once again lashing out. What did he say at his rally tonight?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Don. It's perhaps not a surprising argument from the president. But he is trying to say that essentially Democrats and the media are weaponizing the coronavirus outbreak trying to use it against him. An argument that his acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney made earlier today. But he made this some of the minutes getting on the stage here in Charleston tonight. Listen to exactly how he's phrasing this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Now the Democrats are politicizing the coronavirus. You know that. Right? Coronavirus.

(CROWD BOOING)

TRUMP: They are politicizing it. We did one of the great jobs, you say, how's President Trump doing? They go, not good, not good. They have no clue. They don't have any clue. They can't even count their votes in Iowa.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, Don, what's notable about this is what you've been hearing from the president for the last several weeks as saying that his administration are essentially downplaying the risk of this. Saying that it's not going to spread. He says if it spreads the other day. Even though CDC officials were saying it's not a question of if, it's actually when is this going to spread in the United States. But he's taking a noticeably different tone in like the last 48 hours

or so. Where he's pointed to the things his administration has done by creating this task force, restricting travel from China and whatnot in the last month or so.

Though, tonight, he was saying things like he was surprised by this outbreak. Saying, you know, two weeks ago he wouldn't have predicted this. Though, of course, Don, you know, we've been reporting on this since it started happening in Wuhan in December.

LEMON: Kaitlan Collins in Charleston, South Carolina. Kaitlan, thank you very much. We appreciate that.

We're not learning about a patient in Oregon believed to be the third case of what's being called community spread.

Joining me now to answer some of the big questions is our very own Dr. Sanjay Gupta. And if you have any questions for him be sure to tweet them to at CNN Tonight. Also, in Instagram as well.

Doctor, we really appreciate you joining us.

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Of course, Don.

LEMON: Thank you so much. It's a very important story.

GUPTA: Yes.

LEMON: Just before our show we got word of this new case of coronavirus, new one in the U.S. Excuse me. A new U.S. state. Another example of the community spread. What do you know?

GUPTA: Yes. Well, it's not a hoax. I can tell you that first of all. This is another example. Another state now has a patient who had no known travel history to one of these areas that's affected by the coronavirus. Hasn't come in contact with someone with the known infection. And yet, still contracted the virus.

We have said that a few times now because the third patient. And you know, if you talk to public health officials this is concerning, Don, but not unexpected. A couple of details we're just learning about this patient, they're from Washington County. They're being treated at the Kaiser Permanente hospital.

Don, they spent time, these patients spent time at Forest Hills Elementary School as well. Maybe at some point when they were carrying and this person was carrying the virus.

This is the concern. Right? Two concerns. One is, if they -- if they got the infection out in the community that means they got it from somebody else who doesn't know that they have it. First point.

And then this person while carrying the virus spends time with other people including at this elementary school. That's a concern. Because you know, with this particular coronavirus, we know that even if you don't have symptoms, you can spread the virus. You can still shed the virus from your body and it can spread.

It's probably less likely to happen than when someone is ill. Coughing and sneezing actively. But it can happen, Don. And that's the concern.

LEMON: All right. Let's get into some of the questions. Big questions, doctor. What are the symptoms of the coronavirus and when should someone seek medical attention?

[22:19:59]

GUPTA: The symptoms are going to be very similar to cold and flu. You know, you can take a look. They are, fever, cough, shortness of breath. People can -- there's this incubation period.

So, from the time that you're exposed to the virus to the time you develop symptoms can be up to a couple of weeks. One point, Don, I found interesting. I really look carefully at the data on the patients. There are some, you know, 70,000, 80,000-person study now on this.

And what you find is that it tends to affect the lower respiratory system more than the upper respiratory. What that means more specifically is with this coronavirus infection you are less likely to get things like a sore throat or a runny nose. That's more upper respiratory sort of infections.

And I'll just remind people, again, look, if you have symptoms you are watching the program tonight and you have the symptoms. You're still exponentially less likely to have the coronavirus infection versus the common cold or the flu. Because while it is here in this country and while it does seem to be evidence of community spread in a few places, it's still a lot less likely, Don, than the cold or flu.

LEMON: OK. Sanjay, if you go to your doctor, can you get even tested?

GUPTA: This has been an issue. You know, it depends where you live. So far there have been seven public health institutions. Three federal institutions. DOD and then the CDC. Up until just yesterday those are the only places you can get tested.

So, if you are someone who was concerned because you had flown, you know, through Korea or through northern Italy, you know, places where we know the virus has been spreading. Obviously, in addition to China. If you came through those places and had symptoms and you went to your doctor and ask to be tested, the answer was most likely going to be no. You can't get tested. We don't have the testing.

That's starting to change slowly. In fact, this patient we were just talking about in Oregon that test was done at the state level there in Oregon. So, the testing is starting to improve.

But, you know, I got to say, Don, this has been one area of surprising weakness within this particular outbreak. You know, if you look in Korea, South Korea, they have been testing some 5,000 patients a day roughly. We haven't even tested 1,000 patients in several weeks. If you don't test you don't know you don't really have good surveillance. It's going to improve. I mean, there's been a lot of evolution in that

area. And they say by the end of next week there should be at least 40 places you can test. We have been a little slow on this, Don.

LEMON: Yes. Listen, I'm a hand washer but -- a lot. But I also like the hand sanitizer especially the scented one. So, hopefully that helps. What are the best ways to protect yourself and others?

GUPTA: You think about the flu season. And most people actually probably don't pay that close attention of flus season because we're so familiar with flu and sometimes it's a devil you know versus the devil you don't.

LEMON: Right.

GUPTA: In this case because there's fear around this because it is so new. Obvious ones. You know, if someone is sick, avoid someone sick. If you yourself are sick you should stay home. Do wash your hands often.

And the reason for that, I think people know this. But you know, these germs can live on surfaces, you touch surfaces, you touch your nose, your mouth or face more times than you realize in a day. Everyone does. Try not to do that. Try to wash the hands as much.

In this time of season, even without coronavirus, because flu is circulating, avoid shaking hands with people. That's another way that this is transmitted.

One thing about the masks, I get a lot of questions about the masks. If you are healthy, you don't have symptoms there's really no reason for you to wear one of those surgical masks. It doesn't keep the virus maybe going through the mask itself or around the edges.

If you are sick you can make an argument perhaps to wear the mask. But for healthy people it really doesn't make a big difference. It is basic stuff. And it almost sound silly sometimes, Don, talking about such basic stuff like you said the hand washing the hand sanitizer. It makes a difference.

LEMON: Yes.

GUPTA: There's been outbreaks that have been really stopped by that.

LEMON: Yes. And I just like the smell.

GUPTA: You like the smell.

LEMON: Yes. But, yes, this Jao one is really good. It smells really good. I'm weird. So, don't worry -- don't worry about the mask as --

(CROSSTALK)

GUPTA: If you're healthy.

LEMON: -- or if the drugstore. At the end if the drugstore sold out because it doesn't really help that much. This is a question, Sanjay, doctor. I like to respect you, doctor.

(CROSSTALK)

GUPTA: Call me Sanjay, please, Don.

LEMON: That's all right.

GUPTA: How long have we known each other?

LEMON: I know. At least for a decade or more, 13 or 14 years. Listen, this is a question from Facebook. Are we supposed to stay home and for how long?

GUPTA: Yes. So, not yet. We're not at that point yet. I think what this question is about is something known as social distancing. And basically, what it means, Don, is if a virus, in this case, the coronavirus is spreading within a community, the question is how do you stop the transmission, how do you sort of break those routes of transmission?

[22:24:59]

And one of the ways to do that is to sort of separate people out and isolate them as best you can. So, what may happen sometimes in communities, and I'm saying this now not because I want to scare people but because if we do hear this in the United States, like other countries have heard it, don't be surprised and don't be alarmed or panicked.

But you might get recommendations that kids should come out of school. People should work from home. You should avoid public gatherings. And the reason for all that is you're trying to separate people. That's how you break the cycle of transmission.

One thing that I think is really important and people can do now, and again, you don't need to stay at home now. But one thing you can do now is sort of look around your house and say, OK, if I did need to just be home for a couple weeks to not leave the house as much as possible, could I do it? Do I have enough supplies? Food, water, and things like that. But also, medicine. You know, if I take prescription medicines, if you have young kids at home do you have all the kids supplies. Things like that.

So, it's a worthwhile exercise for what's happening now. But I think it's a worthwhile exercise period. Bad storms. All of sort of reasons why you can't leave the home for some reason. Just make sure you're prepared in this regard. That's something you can do now. But we're not at the social distancing phase of things yet.

LEMON: All right. Sanjay, can you stick around for a little bit?

GUPTA: Sure.

LEMON: Because we've got more questions. All right. Coming in from viewers and Sanjay is going to answer them. That's next.

GUPTA: You got it.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So we're back now and we're answering a questions about coronavirus tonight. Back with me Doctor Sanjay Gupta. OK, so, here we go, doctor. So, someone on Twitter wants to know. Is it possible for the CDC or other agencies to perform tests to determine whether like the flu the coronavirus will disappear with warmer, summer temperatures? Kind of similar to what the president said. It will just -- he said it will just disappear. But what do you think?

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Where that's coming from is looking at, you know, with certain cold viruses and other similar coronaviruses. You have had what's called a seasonal variation. So, numbers go up and down a little bit depending on the weather. Problem is now we're seeing cases in warmer climates. Like Australia. Like Mexico. Like Nigeria. So, we don't know. I mean, that's why it's a novel virus. We just don't know how it's going to behave.

LEMON: All right. So, it doesn't just disappear. But there are -- you have fewer cases of the flu in -- tell me if I'm wrong, in warmer months. Right?

GUPTA: That's right.

LEMON: OK. Another question from Twitter. I have heard the virus can last up to 48 hours on the surface. Is there any reason to worry about the packets from China that are shipped through the mail system?

GUPTA: Very fair question. We look into this and pretty universally talking all the public health expert, there is not cause for concern. It can live on surfaces, but not on card board for example, porous surfaces and going to the shipping process. These viruses are not particularly hearty. You know, they don't last that long, once they're going through that process. So, really no cause for concern. We're told that over and over again.

LEMON: OK. There's an interesting question. This one is coming from Twitter. It says, my dad was born in 1918 during the Spanish flu. My grandmother said people were fine one day, dead two days later with no warning. Does this have that potential?

GUPTA: Well, you know, I think what they're talking about is the idea that you have a pathogen that is very transmissible and as we're learning more and more about this coronavirus, we're learning about the fatality ratio.

One thing about Spanish flu is that if you go back and look at how fatal, what was the fatality ratio? It was around 2 percent. Which is similar to what we're seeing with coronavirus. Again, this is a novel virus, we don't know all the numbers and ultimately when you start digging into all this, the fatality ratio maybe a lot lower. Don, fatality ratio number of dead over number of infected. Number of

dead we know. Number of infected is hard to figure out, because 80 percent of people who get this infection have minimal or no symptoms. They don't go to the hospital. They don't go to the clinic, they don't get tested. Therefor they don't count in terms of that bottom number. So, we don't really know for sure what the ratio is.

But yes, this is the concern that it could turn into a pandemic like the Spanish flu. It's something that Bill Gates wrote about today saying this is sort of one of those -- one in a century sort of pathogens and that's why the public health community is concerned.

LEMON: OK, real quickly, because you kind to answer my next question. Are we in pandemic mode yet? This is from Facebook and if not, when?

GUPTA: Right. Officially, no. Because a pandemic has all these various criteria. But you know, a lot of people think we're heading that way. As this is spreading to just about any place in the world and you're starting to see communities spread. Once you have those ingredients come together. That's what they call a pandemic, Don.

LEMON: You're the best. Thank you for sticking around. We appreciate it, Dr.

GUPTA: Thanks, Don. Let's do it again.

LEMON: Have a great weekend. All right.

GUPTA: Fifteen years by the way. That's how long we have known each other.

LEMON: Yeah. Now you're showing how old we are, Dr. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, Dr. thank you, you're the best.

GUPTA: I got it.

LEMON: I really appreciate it, thank you.

GUPTA: Thank you.

LEMON: Next we are going to break down how this disease is spreading and if officials are prepared to stop it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:35:00]

LEMON: In February of 2018 the World Health Organization revealed that it was preparing for an unknown international epidemic which they called, Disease X. Is novo coronavirus that dreaded Disease X?

Joining me mow to discuss is Doctor Peter Daszak, he is a disease ecologist and the president of the ECOHealth Alliance. And John Barry, he's adjunct faculty at the Tulane University School of Public Health and the author of The Great Influenza, the story of the deadliest pandemic in history. Two perfect people to talk about this. I'm so glad you, both are here.

Peter, I'm going to start with you. You've got an op-ed in The New York Times. We knew Disease X was coming. It is here now. Why is this novo coronavirus the Disease X and what does that mean?

PETER DASZAK, DISEASE ECOLOGIST, PRESIDENT, ECOHEALTH ALLIANCE: Well, you know, the phrase Disease X. We (inaudible) that when we had a meeting at WHO, World Health Organization. To think about what are the high risks pathogens in the future. And one of the listing that ones we knew about, we put this Disease X contrary to all those viruses out there that have not yet emerged that could be lethal in people. That could spread quickly and silently like this coronaviruses. That can have a low enough mortality rate that they are able to spread without alarming everybody and then therefore become a pandemic. Like this (inaudible) almost is.

LEMON: Yes. (Inaudible) it's novel. Pardon me for that. John I want to bring you in. Now, you've written extensively about the 1918 flu the deadliest pandemic in history that killed as many as 100 people worldwide. Now the world -- say, 100 million, excuse me people worldwide. Now the world has changed a lot since 1918.

[22:40:02]

But you say there are parallels in the terms of government -- in terms of government response such as the used of quarantines. Talk to me about that.

JOHN BARRY, ADJUNCT FACULTY, TULANE UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH, AUTHOR: Well, I mean, there are a lot of lessons that came out of the people studying in 1918 pandemic and when bird flu surfaced, 15 years ago, people started paying attention and analyzing it. The number one lesson is to tell the truth. If you give people a sense of what they have to deal with, as a general rule they can in fact deal with it. It's really the unknown that people are afraid of.

Another lesson involves social distancing. You know, actually I'm not a great fan of quarantine. There's some very good unpublished army data from 1918, when army camps were quite rigidly quarantined and it had -- they discovered that camps that did quarantine had exactly the same number of soldiers getting sick and dying as camps that didn't do anything whatsoever.

The only effect that the quarantine did have when it was rigidly enforced was to stretch out the peek, flatten the peak. As of the wave as the disease went through that camp. Which put a lot less strain on the healthcare system in the camp. I don't think quarantine is a great weapon against a disease like influenza. And I think it might be a little bit better weapon against this. Because the incubation period is a little bit different.

But it's not a perfect weapon whatsoever. I think the truth is powerful. Telling people what they can do to protect themselves. I do believe in social distancing. Pretty self-explanatory phrase. Obviously the information about hand washing and which is standard. Everybody had heard it by now, but that's one of the most effective things you can do.

LEMON: Peter, you would think by now, you know, considering how advance the societies are we would be better at dealing with this. You said that the world strategy for dealing with pandemic, you call it woefully inadequate because officials wait for viruses to strike and then hope that they can develop a vaccine. What should they -- what should we be doing now?

DASZAK: Well, we estimates about 1.7 million unknown viruses in mammals, wildlife, out there around the world that could become emerging diseases or pandemics in people. We don't even know what they are. Let's get out there and find out what they are. Let's get these genetic sequences into the lab. Let's change the way we develop vaccines. Instead of developing vaccines against SARS, the virus that happened 15 year ago. Let's have a universal coronavirus vaccine that works against all these strains. You know, NIH are working on a universal flu vaccine.

LEMON: Why did we do it that way? Why do we --

DASZAK: It's just the way we do. We respond to a crisis. I think this is a kind of human nature. We respond well to crisis. Politicians like to do that. It's kind of less attractive to spend money especially internationally (inaudible) --

LEMON: I was going to say, it's financial aspect.

DASZAK: There's a financial aspect for sure. What we're really talking about is when the outbreak is over in a couple years, we've got -- that's what when we start our work. And that's when we need to get out there, find what the next one is going to be, work with communities in the hot zones where emerging diseases originate and help them to reduce the risk.

LEMON: John, as I were listening you respond to the last question. You said that truth is important. How important is the government's credibility when it comes to keeping the public calm and ready to comply with whatever they need to do to keep the virus from spreading?

BARRY: Well, I think that's absolutely everything. In 1918 we were at war and there was this effort to keep moral up. As a result you had national public health leaders saying things like this is ordinary influenza by another name. It was called Spanish influenza. When people actually -- you had a Twitter question in the last segment, there were in fact people who died within 24 hours after their first symptoms. People understood that this was not ordinary influenza by another name. They lost all trust in what the public health people were talking about.

Society actually, I mean the terror was such that society began to break down. There was the dean of the University of Michigan medical school, (inaudible), a scientist who said if this continues for a few more weeks civilization could disappear from the face of the earth. He said that privately. But that gives you a sense of the kind of panic. And there's almost a controlled experiment. There was one city that did in fact told the truth. San Francisco had

a full page ad day after day. Signed by the mayor and business leaders and union leaders in huge print that said, wear a mask and save your life.

[22:45:09]

Now the mask actually didn't do anything. But that is a very different message than this is ordinary Influenza by another name. San Francisco functioned during the pandemic better than any other city in the United States that I know of. And I think it was directly related to the fact that the leaders of the city told the truth.

You need to have credibility. And otherwise no measure that the public health authorities recommend is going to be sustained. And you're going to face this disease for a number of weeks, maybe months. And whatever advice you get to try to follow, you have to continue to follow it. Not follow it for a day or four days, but for weeks.

LEMON: Yes. Listen. I was suggested -- you read Peter's op-ed in The New York Times. John has one in the Washington Post. Gentlemen, thank you so much. I

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[22:50:00]

LEMON: We're learning tonight that President Trump says he intends to nominate Congressman John Ratcliffe, a Texas Republican, as Director of National Intelligence. It is a controversial choice. Congressman Adam Schiff, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee tweeting tonight, we now have an intelligence chief who should not have been fired, an unqualified nominee who should not be confirmed, and an acting director who is patently unfit. Adding all while our elections are perilously at risk of foreign interference, just the way the president likes it.

I want to discuss now with James Clapper, who is a former DNI. Director, thank you so much for joining us. Congressman Ratcliffe withdrew his name from consideration last year after Republican raised concerns. He is also determined he had inflated his resume. Is he suddenly somehow more qualified for this position now than he was then?

JAMES CLAPPER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, FORMER DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: Well, as Senator Mark Warner, vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, who would be the primary committee for a confirmation hearing as he tweeted, what's changed? And you know the point being that nothing has changed since last July, I don't know that he's accrued any more qualifications, and there certainly was bipartisan blowback from the Hill when his name was first floated last summer.

LEMON: Director, it was only last week that the president named Ric Grenell to be his acting spy chief, but now sources are telling CNN, at the White House (inaudible) because Grenell was so provocative -- this is going to bolster Ratcliffe's nomination. What does it say about both of these guys?

CLAPPER: Well, that's kind of a low bar for somebody being more appealing, you know, less provocative. And to me they're both kind of in the same category, they're both highly partisan politicians, and not particularly -- and don't have any particular professional qualifications that I think would make them suited to be Director of National Intelligence.

So, you know, in that sense it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. I do think -- I'm speculating here, there may be some complication with what the federal vacancy act, because as I understand it the clock -- the time clock was going to run out on March 11th for -- well, Ambassador Grenell and Joe McGuire, had he stayed in that position, you know, they would have turned into pumpkins on the 11th of March. By nominating somebody else, perhaps this restarts Ambassador Grenell's clock. I don't know, I'm just speculating that.

LEMON: Putting loyalty above experience, how dangerous is that?

CLAPPER: Well, I think it's very dangerous. I think the first requisite for someone in this position should be professional capabilities and experience, expertise. In fact, the intelligence reform terrorism and prevention act says something about that in which it stipulates that the Director of National Intelligence should be someone that has extensive national security expertise.

And depending on how you define extensive, I don't think either of these people qualify under that criteria, not that, you know, anybody's paying attention to the law.

LEMON: Let's talk about what's happening with the coronavirus. When there's a destabilizing event around the globe, whether it's coronavirus or really anything else. What does that mean for our nation's security, Director?

CLAPPER: Well, given how these diseases, you know, don't respect nation state boundaries and how quickly they are transmitted and they're so infectious. So this has all kinds of implications, not only for economy, but if it affects the military, you know, that has impacts on our defense. So there's any number of implications here on effects on the economy, effects on the military strength and readiness if the military itself is affected by a disease like this.

You know, we're seeing small signs of that with at least one military member in South Korea. And given the spread of the disease in Europe from nation to nation, I understand now there are cases of it in the Baltics, and we have a lot of Americans in Europe, are both our active duty forces and their families that could be affected.

[22:55:17]

LEMON: Americans need to be able to trust what they're being told by their government. That's one way that we stay safe in any situation, whether it's terrorism, whether it's a fast spreading virus or anything else. So, what do we do now? CLAPPER: Well, you raise a great point, Don, because, you know, the

president has -- I'll put it this way, an inconsistent relationship with the truth and so, you know, I think there's going to be a latent skepticism about what he says and for that matter whatever comes out of the administration's mouth, whoever's speaking. Personally I'm paying attention to the experts, the people at CDC, and places like that, that know what they are talking about if they are allowed to speak.

LEMON: Director Clapper, thank you, sir.

CLAPPER: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Stocks plunging, as coronavirus surges and the president keeps downplaying it all. All these details and more, next.

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