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Don Lemon Tonight
10 States Did Not Participate in Lockdowns; Millions Lost Their Jobs Due to Coronavirus Crisis; Gov. Jay Inslee (D-WA) Was Interviewed About the Blame Game by President Trump to Governors Across the States; More Than 244,000 U.S. Cases Of Coronavirus; More Than One Million Cases Worldwide; CDC Proposes Benchmarks To Evaluate Whether Communities Can Start Returning To Normal; Remembering A Jazz Legend, Ellis Marsalis Jr. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired April 02, 2020 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: This is truly an effort by everyone in America to get through this crisis together. Sanjay, I think your daughter understand that she's been getting involved.
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, it's been one of my, I guess favorite things. Just seeing how kids have been adapting to this new normal, doing their part to help as well. You know, you forget, you forget the kids, even young kids are really listening.
You know, Anderson, we've been talking a lot about masks lately, so my youngest daughter she decided actually to make masks for members of the family, Anderson. There she is. She actually made one for you as well. I'll send it to you.
COOPER: Wow, thanks.
GUPTA: She knows we shouldn't be using the hospital masks but that cloth masks might help keep people safe. Look at her go there.
COOPER: That's great.
GUPTA: I'm biased but I think she did a great job.
COOPER: Wow.
GUPTA: This is my mask right there.
COOPER: That's awesome.
GUPTA: Pretty good mask, huh.
COOPER: She made that?
GUPTA: She made that. I'm going to send you yours, too.
COOPER: That's cool. GUPTA: You know, Anderson, there's this great quote that I love. Mark Twain also gets credit for quotes but I think he actually said this one. Something like, the best way to cheer yourself up is to cheer up somebody else. I think it's really true. I mean, you and I, everybody, we're all in this together so let's make sure we're there for each other as well.
COOPER: Yes, there's a great quote my mom used to quote a lot. It's often, it's from a Scottish philosopher minister name McLaren, I think, be kind because everybody you meet is fighting a great battle. I think that's never more true than right now. There's a lot of people out there fighting great battles and let's be kind to each other.
GUPTA: Yes. And so many people are asking about also, you know, just wanting to help which I find so gratifying and we put together this for people to find that information. cnn.com/impact.
COOPER: Sanjay, thank you. Thanks also to Dr. Fauci, Governor Andrew Cuomo, Robert Kraft, also our colleague Chris Cuomo, we hope, Chris, you feel better soon. Also, thanks to all those who wrote in with your questions and everyone who joined us tonight. This won't be the last town hall we'll have. We'll see you on air tomorrow. The news continues with Don Lemon.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone. You just watched the CNN global town hall. Coronavirus facts and fears.
This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.
Here's our breaking news at this hour. There are now more than 244,000 cases of coronavirus in this country. More than 5,900 deaths. And another in another grim and disturbing milestone, there are now more than a million cases of coronavirus. That's globally.
Over 52,000 people have died and here in the United States we are still not doing what we need to do to fight this deadly virus because of a complete lack of leadership.
The president, who ignores social distancing night after night during his coronavirus briefings -- just look at the picture -- still won't issue a nationwide stay-at-home order. Dr. Anthony Fauci bluntly saying this tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: I don't understand why that's not happening. As you said, you know, the tension between federally mandated versus states' rights to do what they want is something I don't want to get into. But if you look at what's going on in this country, I just don't understand why we're not doing that. We really should be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, with thousands and thousands of Americans at risk, this president, this administration playing the blame game tonight, blaming the states and their governors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The states should have been building their stock pile. We have almost 10,000 in our stock pile and we've been building it. We've been supplying it. But the states should be building. We're a backup. We're not an ordering clerk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Blaming the supply chain.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER NAVARRO, WHITE HOUSE TRADE ADVISER: The ventilator companies themselves express concern that in this rush to build ventilators there will be pressure on that supply chain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Blaming is easy. Leading is hard. The hard truth is being president in a crisis means you need to take responsibility. And with governors across the country pleading for life-saving supplies, the president's son-in-law and senior adviser Jared Kushner says this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JARED KUSHNER, SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: I got a call from the president. He told me he was hearing from friends of his in New York that the New York public hospital system was running low on critical supply.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He was hearing from friends in New York? That's what it takes to get action from this president? A tip from a friend that things are actually bad right now? That is a perfect example of a complete lack of seriousness from this administration, from this president. We've all heard New York's Governor Andrew Cuomo day after day on live TV begging for supplies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): It is essential that the federal government works with this state and that this state works with the federal government. We cannot do this on our own. I need your help. I want your help. And New Yorkers will do everything they can to be good partners with the federal government.
[22:05:07]
What am I going to do with 400 ventilators when I need 30,000? You pick the 26,000 people who are going to die because you only sent 400 ventilators.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: We have all heard the governor begging for what he needs to save lives along with others. And tonight, we're going to talk about all the governors, Republican and Democrat, who are doing the right thing for their citizens, thankful to them.
But there are other governors taking their cues from the president, dodging their responsibility. With 93 percent of Americans, well over 305 million people under stay-at-home orders tonight, some governors are still refusing to take action to protect their own citizens, their own people.
Ten states have no stay-at-home orders. Alabama, Arkansas, Iowa, Missouri, North Dakota, Nebraska, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah, Wyoming. The Missouri governor, Mike Parson, suggesting he's considering a stay-at-home order. Sure. Consider away.
Let the clock just keep on ticking while your people are being exposed to this virus. There are more than 1,800 cases in Missouri so far, 1,800 so far. The Florida Governor, Ron DeSantis issued a stay-at-home order yesterday, one that exempted houses of worship, allowing them to continue to hold crowded services. Then signed a second order effectively overruling local communities with stricter stay-at-home orders.
And then there's a governor, the Georgia Governor, Brian Kemp, finally issuing a shelter-in-place order today claiming the reason that he waited so long was that he had only just learned -- he had only just learned -- that people without symptoms could spread the virus.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. BRIAN KEMP (R-GA): Those individuals could have been infecting people before they ever felt bad. Well, we didn't know that until the last 24 hours.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Listen, I don't -- I don't mean to be rude here, but peoples' lives are at stake. He didn't know that for the last 24 hours? Where has he been? Is he ignorant to the point of incompetence? Or is he just lying?
It is absolutely not true that we did not know until the last 24 hours that people who had no symptoms could still infect others. Dr. Fauci, here it is January 31st.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAUCI: You know that in the beginning we were not sure if there were asymptomatic infection which would make it a much broader outbreak than what we're seeing. Now we know for sure that there are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Everyone who has been paying any attention at all knows that. And knew months ago. Yet Georgia's governor claims he didn't know. He is the governor, and he didn't know, and waited until yesterday to finally announce a stay-at-home order. That is nothing but willful ignorance. And where does that come from?
I have been saying all along that the president set the table for how people felt about this virus. So, where does it come from? It comes from the top. Just listen to the president, his back and forth on whether people should now be required to wear masks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Frankly I don't think -- I don't think they'll be mandatory because some people don't want to do that. But if people want it, as an example, and the mask, if people wanted to wear them, they can. If people wanted to use scarves which many people have, many people have them, they can.
In many cases the scarf is better. It's thicker. I mean, you can -- depending on the material, it's thicker. But they can do that if they want. Now, a recommendation is coming out -- we'll see what that recommendation is. But --
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The recommendation --
TRUMP: I will say this, they can pretty much decide for themselves right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: If you want to wear a mask, you can, scarves are better, thicker? You can do that if you want? Decide for yourself? That's the kind of leadership we're getting from this White House in the midst of a crisis that's already killed more than 5,900 Americans. A complete lack of seriousness on our health and our economy quite frankly.
[22:09:58]
Six point six million people filed for their first week of unemployment last week. Three point three million filed the week before. That's close to 10 million people in two weeks. And the president says this tonight. This was from his briefing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: And then you see 6 million people unemployed, unemployment numbers get released and you see six million people. And it's an artificial closing. It's not like we have a massive recession or worse. It's artificial because we turned it off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: It's artificial? It is not artificial. Tell that to nearly 10 million Americans who are suddenly out of work in the midst of this crisis. Who can't pay their rents, who can't pay their rents, who can't pay their mortgages, they're sitting at home, they don't have jobs.
Tell that to nearly 10 million Americans that it's artificial. Really? Let's remember what the Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross said about the coronavirus outbreak in China. That was back in January. Pay close attention.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILBUR ROSS, U.S. SECRETARY OF COMMERCE: I think it will help to accelerate the return of jobs to North America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Accelerate the return of jobs, huh? How's that working out? A complete lack of seriousness. From the beginning. Catastrophic unemployment numbers, the economy on life support, doctors, nurses, hospitals begging for equipment to save our lives and their own.
Like I said, America needs leadership. Look for it out there and find it where you can. Meantime, listen to the experts. The real experts. The ones who are warning the White House that the coronavirus may be spread much more easily than we thought, by breathing or even talking, not just by sneezing or coughing.
One of those experts, he joins me now. That's Dr. Harvey V. Fineberg, the chair on the standing committee on emerging infections diseases. Thank you -- infectious diseases -- thank you so much, Dr. Fineberg. I really appreciate you joining us.
So, let's get right to it. As one of the most pre-imminent experts on infectious diseases, you are the doctor who wrote a letter to the White House explaining that the virus can be transmitted just by talking or breathing. To most people, mean, that is really frightening. So, take us through your findings, and what did you share with them, please?
HARVEY V. FINEBERG, PRESIDENT, GORDON AND BETTY MOORE FOUNDATION: Don, thank you. It's really a pleasure to be with you and to have this opportunity to talk with you and all of your listeners and viewers.
The National Academy's committee made up of a number of experts reviewed the evidence about how respiratory viruses are spread. And it's been long-established that there are three ways. We produce big droplets when we laugh, cough, or sneeze. We produce tiny droplets when we also talk or even breathe.
Many of us are completely unaware of the fact that we are actually producing and exhaling invisible droplets as we go about our daily lives.
And finally, when we touch a contaminated surface from one of these droplets or direct contamination, and then touch our face, that's the third way that we can get infected.
All three of these pathways are important to stop. Nobody knows for sure exactly how important each of them is, but they are all possible and they should all be part of our preventive strategy. That's why the CDC says wash your hands frequently. Keep a physical distance. And those kinds of steps are really important in reducing our exposure to the virus in the ways that could infect us.
LEMON: Dr. Fineberg, our chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta, you know they just had a town hall tonight. And during the town hall he asked Dr. Fauci about your findings. Take a listen to this and then we'll discuss.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAUCI: You don't have to cough. You don't have to sneeze. There's an aerosol that goes out just a very short distance, just a couple of feet and I think that's one of the things that putting a red flag for people, why people who are completely asymptomatic, not coughing, not sneezing we know how are transmitting the virus which brings up a number of issues.
[22:15:01]
First, it underscores why you should continue to try and stay six feet away from someone because that would obviate that right away.
GUPTA: So, I mean if it is -- if it even goes a couple of feet but if it stays airborne for any time at all, would you -- would you change your behavior based on this information? Like running outside, for example?
FAUCI: No, no, Sanjay, I wouldn't because I believe that the 6-foot distance would really obviate that concern.
GUPTA: OK.
FAUCI: Because if you look at the video of what that came out of that person's mouth when they spoke it was sort of like this, but it stayed there for a bit couple of feet and then went down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Doctor, do you agree, is six feet away far enough?
FINEBERG: Six feet is away is a good distance and almost always is good enough for any of the larger droplets to fall down. If you're in the outdoors it's perfectly adequate because the air disperses these droplets. If you're in a confined room with a patient who has the infection, then those droplets that are invisibly tiny can circulate around the room.
A study at the University of Nebraska, for example, found contamination in the form of remnants of RNA from the virus that causes this disease all around the rooms of patients. So, that is why it's especially important for our health professionals to have the protection that they need when they're caring for patients.
But when you're walking outdoors, six feet distance is a pretty good distance. I wouldn't want to be directly in the line of someone who gave a great big sneeze. But in general, it's a pretty safe distance.
LEMON: What about in office spaces and people are going to wonder what about circulating in the air conditioning system or just in a general office space?
FINEBERG: The degree to which this particular virus could circulate in sufficient density to be infectious in different spaces is not yet really established. With some viruses -- for example, the measles virus, we know it's highly contagious and can spread through ventilation systems. With this virus, it's not nearly yet established.
LEMON: OK. So, listen, the president didn't give a clear answer tonight on wearing masks, doctor. What do you think people should do?
FINEBERG: I think we're going to hear some advice. Everyone is saying that we're going to get some recommendations soon. If you ask me, the scientific evidence is not conclusive about wearing a mask to protect others.
This is the key, Don. We're talking here about whether if you wear a mask, you can prevent the spread of this virus unwittingly to any people because any one of us could be among that asymptomatic or pre- symptomatic but infected stage when we feel fine but we're capable of infecting somebody else.
The idea is if we wear a mask, all of us, we will help one another be protected because those of us who are unwittingly infected and would have some of our droplets interrupted by that mask will help all of us to stay healthier.
LEMON: If you can, a short answer, please, on this. Dr. Fauci said tonight that the entire country should be under stay-at-home orders. He said he didn't know why that wasn't happening. Any thoughts on that, please, for me?
FINEBERG: We should all listen to Dr. Fauci. He knows what he's talking about. And fundamentally, right now our best defense against this virus is interrupting its opportunity to infect others. Staying at home, keeping our physical distance, washing our hands, always keeping away from anyone who has been or is actively infected. That's where you get isolation. Those are the things that are just common- sense good steps for us to all take advantage of.
LEMON: Dr. Fineberg, thank you so much. You've been really, really helpful. Thank you so much.
FINEBERG: It's a pleasure to be with you, don.
LEMON: Absolutely. It's a pleasure to have you.
Well, up next, one of the nation's governors who is stepping up for the people of his state, he has been a leader in this crisis, Washington Governor Jay Inslee after the break.
[22:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Throughout this crisis a lack of federal leadership has led to states bidding against each other for personal protective equipment and other medical supplies. President Trump was asked about that tonight. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They have to work that out. What they should do is they should -- long before this pandemic arrived, they should have been on the open market just buying. There was no competition. You could have made a great price.
The states have to stock up. It's like one of those things. They waited. They didn't want to spend the money because they thought this would never happen. And their shelves in some cases were bare.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: One of those things. Joining me now, Washington Governor Jay Inslee. Governor, thank you so much. Governor, you're doing a great job. I've been saying to every governor who comes on and every mayor, the governors and mayors around this country have really stepped into the void and they've been doing, for the most part, they've been doing some really heroic work. You are one of them. Congratulations. I'm sorry for what's going on in your state and we appreciate you joining us tonight.
GOV. JAY INSLEE (D-WA): Thank you.
So, let's get to business tonight. Absolutely. So, having been through what you have, what you've gone through in your state or going through in your state, when you hear the president point fingers at states, what's your reaction?
INSLEE: Well, it's the same reaction that all of us would have had if on December 8, 1941, the morning after the day of infamy in Pearl Harbor, can you imagine Franklin Delano Roosevelt giving a speech and saying, well, maybe Connecticut, you guys build a battleship and maybe Missouri, you could make a few bullets, and by the way, you all have to bid against yourselves to buy armament to win against the forces of fascism.
[22:30:08]
It would have been ridiculous and it would have been futile and we could have lost World War II. And I have the same reaction to this because look, we need a full-scale national mobilization of the immense talents and manufacturing capability of the United States.
And the President of the United States has the power both legally and morally to summon us to that and has been very disappointed that he has not used it to the extent he should.
Now, look, we have had help from the federal government. I don't want to diminish that. We've got things from the federal stock pile. The army is putting up a hospital for us in Seattle today. But what we do not have and we desperately need is the full-scale mobilization of the industrial capacity of the United States to make test kits, to make N95 masks, to make visors. All of these things ought to be in our arsenal.
And you know, we won World War II -- World War II because of the arsenal of democracy. We need an arsenal against this virus right now. I urged the president to use the Defense Production Act and he didn't do it until the next day. He need to --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Yes. I want to talk -- can I talk to you about that?
INSLEE: Yes.
LEMON: Because he's announcing today that he's using the DPA, Defense Production Act which you just mentioned to clear up supply chain issues and get more ventilators into production. How long do you expect it to be before you see more ventilators in your state?
I understand what you were saying, if he had done that earlier, you may have some of those ventilators, you may have some of those PPE and all of that stuff that you need now.
INSLEE: Yes.
LEMON: But how long do you think before you'll see some of those ventilators and some of that equipment you need?
INSLEE: Probably about a month from that particular order. But I want to point out that I urged him to do it, he refused to do it, then he did it the next day on an order that had already been placed, it's from a company called Ventec in Bothell, Washington to work with General Motors.
We need him to use that same statute to order manufacturing of masks. Look, we're sending our nurses into these hospitals. They don't have enough protection. It's just absurd. He needs to use that to order visors so that the physicians have a visor to protect them from the splatter and the like.
We have enormous manufacturing capability. He could order today the people who are making cup holders and trinkets and toys to get in this fight. And Republicans and Democrat governors alike share this frustration. And we hope he'll step up to the plate. He hasn't yet. But we desperately need him to do that. Now that doesn't obviate what we're doing. We have been things here.
I've got a company called Outdoor Research they make mountain climbing gear that I've enjoyed for years. They're now going to turn out hundreds of thousands of masks in the next several weeks.
I have my prisoners making surgical garb right now in our prisons. Governors Republicans and Democrats are doing this all over the country. But this is a national problem. It needs a national response. And it needs a national call to action. We could use that leadership.
LEMON: So, I want to ask you about what we're seeing in the data, the data coming from Washington State. Is it -- are you on the downslope of the curve, do you think?
INSLEE: No, we are not. The deaths continue to increase. We're up to about 259, I believe, tonight with over 6,000 infected. We think that -- here's the good news and the bad news.
The good news is some of the early social distancing we've done and we were early in this program. We were aggressive in closing schools and restaurants. We are aggressive in putting a stay-at-home order in place.
The epidemiologists -- in fact I met with them today at the University of Washington -- tell us that that is working. It is bending the curve down. This is a reason to have confidence that our stay-at-home orders can work.
However, we still have not got down over the plateau. We're a long way from that, frankly. And we don't know what this virus is going to do. It's an unpredictable beast.
So, what we're doing, I just extended my stay-at-home order for the first two weeks. I've now extended it another month to May 4th. So, we have one of the longer periods in the country right now but that's a smart thing based on the data. We need to be aggressive against this disease. And we've got to wrestle it all the way to the ground because we can't let it spring back up in the months to come.
LEMON: Governor, I appreciate your time. We know it's a busy time for you. So, any -- any time we can get thoughts from you, we appreciate it. Thank you. Best of luck. Be safe.
INSLEE: Wash your hands.
LEMON: Absolutely.
INSLEE: Wash your hands, Don.
LEMON: Absolutely. I've been doing that a lot. Thank you so much. Be safe.
INSLEE: Good, good.
LEMON: Be safe.
INSLEE: Thank you.
LEMON: All right. Today's White House briefing on coronavirus was the longest one yet but short on leadership for the country.
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: People all across this country -- that means you -- we know
that you're anxious to know, should we all be wearing masks now? The president was asked about that tonight. Let's bring in CNN White House correspondent, John Harwood. John, good to see you again tonight. Thank you for coming on and talking about this. It is very important that you hear to guide us through this, because you're covering it every single day close-up. This is what President Trump said when asked about wearing masks at tonight's briefing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, I think they're going to be coming out with regulations on that. And if people want to abide by them, frankly, I don't think they'll be mandatory because some people don't want to do that. But if people wanted it as an example on the (inaudible), people wanted to wear them, they can. If people wanted to use scarves which they have, many people have them, they can. In many cases the scarf is better. It's thicker. I mean, you can -- depending on the material, it's thicker. But they can do that if they want.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:35:10]
LEMON: People just want to know, are we supposed to wear masks or not? Where's the clear direction on this?
JOHN HARWOOD, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Consistent pattern with the president, Don, is that he is afraid of challenging, pushing his base for larger purposes if he thinks they're reluctant. So, business says don't invoke the defense production act, he slow walks and backs into that. The governors say don't tell me to do a stay-at-home order so he holds back and suggested they won't say it. Same with these masks.
Now, as for how dangerous that is, the science is a little bit more equivocal on that. I think the other two are more significant. The DPA and the stay-at-home orders. But he is not coming out and saying it unequivocally because some people say well that's intrusive government. He's not willing to stand up to that.
LEMON: Jared Kushner spoke at tonight's coronavirus briefing. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KUSHNER: I got a call from the president. He told me he was hearing from friends of his in New York that the New York public hospital system was running low on critical supply. He instructed me this morning. I called Dr. Katz, who runs the system and asked him which supply was most supply he was nervous about. He told me it was the N95 masks. I asked what his daily burn was. And I basically got that number. We called (inaudible) and made sure we had the inventory.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: I mean, OK. He was hearing from friends. Maybe they weren't
saying it on conservative media. I don't know. But, I mean, thank goodness one of the president's friends finally told him the exact same thing that every doctor and expert and official on television, on CNN, on every, you know, legitimate news channel has been saying for weeks if not months. So, what is that about?
HARWOOD: That's precisely the point. Well, Jared thought he was flattering himself with that story when in fact as you suggest it shows exactly what the problem is. Hospitals, medical providers, doctors, governors, mayors have been pleading for weeks and weeks and weeks for medical supplies. And the idea that the president's son-in- law talks to the president, he says oh, I heard from some of my friends there was a problem. He makes a phone call and sends some masks. That's not how it's supposed to work. You're supposed to have a unified command system, information getting up the chain and not in a haphazard way like a phone call at late night between the president and one of his friends.
LEMON: John Harwood. Thank you sir. I appreciate your time.
HARWOOD: You bet.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:40:00]
LEMON: CNN learning tonight that the CDC is recommending communities be evaluated for four consecutive weeks before returning to some aspect of community life. It is unclear if the White House has approved those recommendations or when the evaluation period would start. Andy Slavitt is here. He's a former acting head of the health care for the Obama administration and the host of a new podcast In The Bubble and Dr. Mark McClellan, he is her as well the former FDA commissioner under President George W. Bush. Gentleman, thank you so much. I appreciate you joining us.
Dr. McClellan, I'm going to start with you first, because you coauthored a report that provide a road map for getting the country back on its feet with phase one, slowing the spread, you said. Phase two, reopening state by state. Phase three, establishing protection, and lifting all restrictions. What is it going to take to get to phase three? And how long do we have until then?
DR. MARK MCCLELLAN, FORMER FDA COMMISSIONER: Don, we have a ways to go. We are in phase one now. In fact, the next few weeks are going to be really tough in many parts of the United States. So, to get past that, we need to keep doing all of the distancing measures, all the things that every one of us needs to do to help slow down the spread of this virus. We need to keep helping hospitals with the surge capacity they need. We need to keep increasing testing so we can identify cases earlier.
After we bend the curve and have a sustained reduction in the number of new cases and the number of hospitalizations in an area, that's when you can think about moving on to the next phase. And that next phase is not back to normal. It's a new normal with considerable attention to the need for distancing. People can go back to work, can do more activities, but not big crowds, and respect for the fact that this virus could come back.
Along with that is a need for what we'll call surveillance. So, a lot of testing to make sure if someone does have -- if there is a new outbreak for the condition, if someone does have coronavirus we're going to identify it quickly and can isolate and keep it under control. That along with enough hospital capacity, if there is another surge are the prerequisites for opening back up. But that could happen in matter of weeks. That all depends on what we do, all Americans and our policy leaders.
LEMON: OK. That was -- I was going to ask you within a matter of weeks but we don't know it. Or it could take longer depending on if we do.
MCCLELLAN: That's right. It depends on all of those markers. So we've got to go by results. We've got to make progress in bending down the curve, controlling the outbreaks, and we can take more steps.
LEMON: Got it. All right. Andy, you have outlined 20 points of the administration should pursue to fight the coronavirus. What are the most important ones and which ones will be -- will best help us get on to -- on track to reopening the country?
[22:45:00]
ANDY SLAVITT, FORMER ACTING HEAD OF THE HEALTH CARE FOR THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, HOST, IN THE BUBBLE: First of all the paper that mark co-authored is an outstanding paper and it's quite readable by anybody. So, I suggest people take a look at it. It is, I think, the best road map we have today of our path back.
In the meantime, the 20 recommendations I spelled out are things we need to do to organize better and get things done because while all these things are happening, we have front line workers that need much more protection. We need to treat them as a special class. We have people that are going hungry, and we have people that are worried about their jobs.
So, Congress and the administration have to do a lot more and are going to have to put more money in the pockets of states. I know $2 trillion sounds like a big number, but it's a lot less expensive than a full-fledged depression and losing people. So, I think these 20 points that I put forward are points that are going to help us drive the ship through the process of getting to the paper that Mark put out.
LEMON: Yes. But what happens if we backslide, and what does that mean for our economy? Could we go into a depression? We'll talk about that right after the break.
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LEMON: So, back with me now. Former officials from Republican and Democratic administrations Andy Slavitt. From the Obama administration, Dr. Mark McClellan from President George W. Bush administration. So, listen, Dr. McClellan, phase two of your plan is about reopening state by state. But as we have seen in countries around the world, they are struggling with imported cases. How do we stop that from happening in states re-opening separately?
MCCLELLAN: There is always going to be a risk of another outbreak happening until we get a vaccine and until we get immunity for most Americans against this virus. So, when we get the current cases under control, we need to have a very aggressive approach to testing, detecting, identifying any new outbreak. So if there is an imported case, someone comes from another area or if there is just a little bit of a smoldering remainder of the viral outbreak, we can get on top of it quickly.
So that's why lots of testing, and public health and health care surveillance system are really important. Health care is going to be different when we reopen. It's going to have to pay a lot more attention to early detection of this infection, to helping people get the care they need outside of the hospital, at home in places that are lower risk. And it's going to have to stay on top, working with the public health authorities staying on top of these potential outbreaks.
LEMON: Andy Slavitt, you know, some states still haven't issued stay- at-home orders. And others had been criticized for taking so long to do so. Getting back to the normal daily life is one thing, but how long could it take for the economy to recover?
SLAVITT: One thing we learned, if we look at the 1918 flu is that there is two keys to success to getting past this. One is how quickly do you put people into social isolation, and the second is how long do you sustain it. And I talked to a few governors today, and they're already feeling the pressure at the end of April, even though their health commissioners are telling them otherwise that people are going to need to get back to work.
And it's going to be a difficult challenge. If Congress and the states are going have to work on this together. Because what you don't want to do is be short-term smart, long-term foolish, and before you have the things in place that Mark described earlier in this conversation, if you let people off too early, then you'll see a bounce back, and you'll see it likely very strongly in the fall.
And the thing we have to pledge in this country is something simply pretty simple. You know, people will die of pneumonia. People will die of illness. That's sad. What we should never have in this country is people dying because they can't get a ventilator or a hospital bed or access to health care. And if we don't keep ourselves tightly socially isolated for the near term, then that's what's going to happen.
And that's when the case fatality rates in places like Italy and other places went much, much higher. So, I think we should take care of this. If we take care of this the economy will welcome it. There will be plenty of things to bring it back. If we deal with it halfway, then I think the economy is going to struggle more for a longer time.
LEMON: All right. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much.
A New Orleans jazz legend passing away from the coronavirus. We're going remember Ellis Marsalis Jr. with his son Branford. That's next.
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LEMON: That is jazz legend Ellis Marsalis Jr. playing at the New Orleans jazz on Heritage festival. That was back in 2012. Let me tell you about him. He was a pianist and an educator, and the patriarch of the legendary musical family. Ellis Marsalis died yesterday from complications of coronavirus. He was 85. And I am honored to be joined by his son, the legendary saxophonist and composer, Branford Marsalis. You like that intro don't you? Branford, so good to see you.
BRANFORD MARSALIS, LEGENDARY SAXOPHONIST AND COMPOSER: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: It's good to see you with a smile on your face. And listen, I'm sorry. I know everyone says -- I'm sorry for your lost. But what I do know, I'm Louisiana and I truly am sorry. We love your family. We love your dad. We love you. We love Wynton. We love everybody. So, your father meant so much. So, share what you want about him.
MARSALIS: I mean, it would take a long time, because his teaching philosophy was very Socratic. He never really tried to tell you what the answer was. He would ask you questions and put you in a position so that you could arrive at an answer on your own, because then it is you making the decision more so than him telling you what to do. And I didn't appreciate that until I got a lot older.
