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Don Lemon Tonight

Trump Wants To Cut WHO Funding?; African-Americans More Prone To Being Hit By Coronavirus; Hydroxychloroquine And Other Treatments Are Being Explored To Fight COVID-19; Singer-Songwriter John Prine Dies From COVID-19 Complications; Rollouts Of $2 Trillion Relief Package Marred By Glitches And Breakdowns; Is CDC Being Sidelined In Coronavirus Crisis? Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired April 07, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

It is 11 p.m. here on the East Coast. Here is the latest headlines on the coronavirus pandemic. The newest development tonight President Trump saying he wants to reopen the U.S. with a big bang.

That as there are now more than 1.4 million cases worldwide and more than 82,000 deaths around the globe. In the U.S. there are now more than 398,000 confirmed cases and more than 12,800 deaths.

Here in hard hit New York City, more than 800 deaths from coronavirus reported today. The deadliest day so far.

But New York's Governor, Andrew Cuomo, reporting that there may be a bit of good news. Saying that the number of hospitalizations appear to be leveling off. That the state maybe reaching what he calls a plateau on hospitalizations. Also saying that social distancing is working. But people still need to stay disciplined and need to continue staying home.

The head of the CDC saying that a large majority of Americans are following social distancing guidelines. But Robert Redfield now predicting that the U.S. death toll from coronavirus maybe much lower than the initial prediction of up to 200,000. That as the president continues his scapegoating today. This time it's the World Health Organization.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're going to put a hold on money spent to the WHO. We're going to put a very powerful hold on it. And we're going to see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And minutes later denying that he said what he has just said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Quick follow up on that. So, it's the time to freeze funding to the WHO during a pandemic?

TRUMP: Well, maybe not. I mean, I'm not saying I'm going to do it but we're going to look at it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did say it.

TRUMP: We give a tremendous -- no, I didn't I said we're going to look at it. We're going to investigate it, we're going to look at it. But we will look at ending funding.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And if you're wondering where the threat to freeze funding to the WHO comes from, well, you may not be surprised to learn it is a Fox News talking point. It's also playing the blame game. Scapegoating.

The fact is the World Health Organization is far from perfect. They were late on this. CNN called this pandemic before the WHO did. And the WHO did praise China's handling of the coronavirus when we know China was hiding what was going on.

But listen to what Dr. Anthony Fauci said during the March 25th briefing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: So, Tedros is really an outstanding person. I've known him from the time that he was the minister of health of Ethiopia.

I mean, obviously over the years anyone who says that the WHO has not had problems has not been watching the WHO. But I think under his leadership they've done well. He has been all over this. I was on the phone with him a few hours ago leading a WHO call.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Yet the president plays the blame game as we get closer to 400,000 cases of coronavirus in this country.

I want to bring in now CNN White House Correspondent, John Harwood and our resident fact checker Daniel Dale. I watch these briefings and I go away most of the time shaking -- I'm like, my head is spinning. I'm like, I don't know what happened. He says that he was very strongly, powerfully going to hold funding from the WHO. And then in the next question he says I didn't say that. It was just odd. OK. I digress.

John, so I want you to take a listen to this. This is what the president said on Fox tonight about opening up the country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Well, I'd love to open with a big bang. One beautiful country. And just open. But it's very possible, you know, there are some areas that are not affected very much. We're looking at two concepts. We're looking at the concept we open up sections, and we're also looking at the concept where you open up everything.

I think New York is getting ready if not already, but getting ready to peak. And once it peaks it will start coming down and then it's going to come down fast. We're way under any polls or any of the models as they call them. They have models. And we're way under. We hope to keep it that way in terms of death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What is he talking about?

[23:05:01]

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Don, what we've seen and what you showed in that clip you showed in the beginning about cutting off funding or not, cutting off funding for the WHO.

Any particular sentence that comes out of Donald Trump's mouth has a half-life of about three seconds. He may mean it in the moment that he says it. But it then doesn't have meaning beyond that. It's subject to being completely reversed.

So, he says I'm cutting it off. No, I didn't say I'm cutting it off. I might cut it off. He says I'm going to open the country by Easter. That would be a wonderful thing. Then he backs off. Now he is chomping at the bit to reopen the country again once he gets some good news.

It is very difficult to determine the genuine intention and more importantly, what is the effect that the experts and the administration are going to have on him to push back on his impulses because he's the president who is governed by impulse.

So, I think we can't read too much into a strategy. This is a president who rifts who says something that comes off the top of his head and it may not matter very much at all tomorrow.

LEMON: John, the president is slamming the World Health Organization tonight saying that they missed the pandemic. But in late February, he was praising their coronavirus work. I mean, what is his scapegoating all about?

HARWOOD: Well, remember, he was praising its work at a time when he was trying to make the point that this wasn't a big threat to the United States. So, praising the World Health Organization at that time suited his objective. Which is to tell people it wasn't a big deal and not disturb the markets and have a calmer situation in the country.

Now that all hell has broken loose the country shut down, he's looking for somebody to blame. He has been in a full-scale blame game for a couple of weeks now. Democrats, the media, governors, hospital workers, the WHO. And again, it is true as you said at the top, the WHO was slow on this but not as slow as the United States.

And the United States being slow in part because they didn't accept the WHO testing technology which South Korea did and exploited it successfully to avoid shut downs. That's one of the reasons that we're in the situation we're in.

LEMON: Yes. Daniel, Trump also tried to rewrite history when asked about comparing coronavirus to the flu. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said this week will be very painful, very difficult, but a few weeks ago you said this was just like a flu. What have you learned --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: I didn't say two weeks ago it was a flu.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Few weeks ago.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: You know what, can I tell you what?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The question is this, Mr. President, what have you learned --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Excuse me. Ready?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- that it could offer as an advice to foreign leaders who still are skeptical about this pandemic and who are against social distancing. What is your advice? What have you learned?

TRUMP: OK. You said I said it was just like a flu. So, the worst pandemic we ever had in this world was a flu, and it was called -- you know that. It was in 1917, 1918, and anywhere from 50 to 100 million people died. That was a flu, OK? So, you could say that I said it was a flu or you could say -- the flu is nothing to sneeze at.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Daniel, what's the fact check?

DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: So, the president here, Don, is trying to have us believe that all those times that he likened the coronavirus to the flu, he was not downplaying the coronavirus, he was warning us it could be a pandemic as bad as what happened in 1918 and 1919. That was the president's suggestion.

That's just complete nonsense. The president used the phrase regular flu. He used the phrase common flu. He kept invoking the tens of thousands of deaths that happen in a conventional flu season like this year or last. And as he was doing that, he kept downplaying, generally downplaying

the state of the outbreak in the U.S. saying we're going down to zero, it's going to go away, et cetera, et cetera. So, this is just as you said complete revisionism. It's abjectly completely false.

LEMON: All right, Daniel, thank you. John, thank you. I appreciate it as well.

Now I want to bring in Dr. James Phillips, he's a physician and assistant professor at George Washington University Hospital. Thank you, doctor. I appreciate you joining us once again.

So, in New York, we're told hospital and ICU admissions are down over the last couple days. You're on the front lines in Washington, D.C. What is it like there? Where are you in the fight?

JAMES PHILLIPS, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Great question. Because different places around the country have been seeing different levels of patients. Obviously, New York has been hit the hardest. We're seeing New Orleans, Detroit, some other areas. But what's been interesting in a lot of the parts of the country is that we have been building our surge capacity in a way that we have reduced elective surgeries and expanded our spaces.

[23:10:05]

We've also gotten message out well about trying to avoid coming to the hospital unless you have a real serious need. So, in Washington, D.C. and some other actually a lot of places around the country we've seen our daily census drop. Sometimes physicians are actually being told, you know, come in a couple hours late because we don't -- we don't quite need you right now.

And there's a reason for that. I think it's because patients are getting a message that says if it's not really serious, you should probably stay at home.

Our concern is that people are staying home for -- I have two concerns there. One is that they are staying home because they may be afraid, they're going to get sick at the hospital. And I want them to feel that we're doing our best to protect them from getting an infection in the hospital.

So, if you're sick, please don't stay at home. Still come see us. And then the other thing is that I think people are afraid of going out in general. They hearing these mix messaging about masks, and you know, in urban areas like where we live transportation is an issue. And so, people are afraid to take subways and even just to walk on the sidewalk.

So, it's interesting. I've heard someone compared it to the, you know, when a tidal wave is coming the first thing you see is the water goes away from the shore before the big wave comes. I don't particularly like that because I don't want the way it makes me feel but I'm afraid that it might be the truth.

LEMON: All right. Doctor, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.

Tonight, as the number of confirmed cases of coronavirus in the United States climbs up near 400,000, there may be a slight glimmer of hope in the battle against the pandemic.

Here's CNN Erica Hill.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR & CORRESPONDENT: With about 97 percent of the country now under stay-at-home orders, new evidence it may be working.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The numbers are going to be much, much, much, much lower than would have been predicted by the models.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: The director of the CDC saying the U.S. death toll could be far lower than previous projections of 200,000. Thanks to widespread social distancing which models had initially estimated just 50 percent of the American public would follow. The reality today is much higher. Though officials caution this is no time to ease up.

On Monday, New York logging the state's largest single day death toll. One overwhelmed funeral home doing its best to meet the need.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OMAR RODRIGUEZ, NEUFELD FUNERAL HOME: We're no longer embalming them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why is that?

RODRIGUEZ: Just because the -- we don't have time to visitations. We're simply either burying directly or direct cremation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Healthcare workers continuing to sound the alarm about personal protective equipment. In Maryland, one nurse practitioner tried making a face field out of a page projector and a head band.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARJORIE SIMPSON, NURSE PRACTITIONER: I put it on. And I started crying. And I thought I can't imagine anybody working wearing something like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Staff also a major concern. Retired nurses and doctors answering the call to help relieve those on the front lines.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JULIANA MORAWSKI, RETIRED E.R. NURSE: I have never seen emergency departments or nursing or any of the services actually in general under so much threat. And you know, it's a family. So, when families is threatened you try to step up as much as you can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: On board the Comfort, which will be dedicated to COVID-19 patients. The number of beds cut in half to 500 for safety. One crew member has tested positive.

Meantime, in Florida, this tightly packed line for unemployment forms are sobering picture of the growing need.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody out here is risking their lives to get this application.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have given out hundreds and hundreds of applications.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: In Connecticut, unemployment applications are about 20 times higher than anything the state seen during a recession. Wisconsin voters on Tuesday trying to keep their distance at the polls. As one of the nation's largest grocery chains announces new restrictions on capacity amid concerns about how and where the virus is spreading.

In Miami Beach, face coverings now required for all customers and employees at grocery stores, pharmacies and restaurants including those making deliveries.

Don, there's been a real focus too on first responders the needs that they have as they are answering these calls. We know that the NYPD on Tuesday some 20 percent called out sick. That's 7,600 uniformed members, of course they are not all calling out sick for coronavirus. What we can tell you is that the NYPD did also announced its 13th coronavirus related death today.

LEMON: Erica Hill, thank you so much.

The surgeon general says while everyone is susceptible to the coronavirus, African-Americans are at higher risks -- risk. We'll tell you the facts behind the reason why, next.

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LEMON: The president and Dr. Anthony Fauci acknowledging the coronavirus pandemic having a disproportionate impact on African- Americans. The U.S. surgeon general saying that black Americans are at higher risk for the virus because we're more likely to suffer from diabetes, heart and lung disease.

That is a concern of mine that I have talked about on this program since the outbreak of the pandemic. For example, African-Americans make up 30 percent of Chicago's population but account for 72 percent of coronavirus deaths in that city.

Last week, Senator Kamala Harris talked with me on the show about health disparities based on race in this country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA): So, black families and children are 20 percent more likely to have asthma. Black families are 40 percent more likely to have high blood pressure. Black women are three times more likely than white women to have lupus.

[23:19:58]

Viruses that effect the respiratory system have a direct impact on people who are suffering from sickle cell anemia. So, what we know then is that this virus by its nature preys on people who have preexisting conditions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: But just so you know when I spoke to Senator Harris about racial disparities and healthcare in this country, that set off some critics who claim that I'm racist. When I was just pointing out the facts. just so you know.

And now the data is clear. Coronavirus is disproportionately impacting and killing people of color and for the reasons, the reasons that are based in medicine and science. But they also tell us something about our society. More tonight from our very own Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay?

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Don, there is another risk factor when it comes to the coronavirus pandemic and how it's affecting a particular group of people. And that is race. As we get closer and closer to the apex as everyone is calling it of this curve, of this coronavirus curve, we want to find out just how much does race play a role. It turns out a lot. Why? I decided to find out myself.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA: In the beginning, COVID-19 was far away. And it didn't even have a name.

CAMARA JONES, PAST PRESIDENT, AMERICAN PUBLIC HEALTH ASSOCIATION: It was coming over to our shores from people who had traveled.

GUPTA: But once it got a foothold in the United States its true self was revealed.

JONES: Once people got infected because of their diabetes and heart disease in life that they would get it more severely and be at higher risk of dying.

GUPTA: Dr. Camara Joes is past president of the American Public Health Association.

I was really struck, Dr. Jones. We're both doctors. And as I was hearing the story, it sounded just all of a sudden tragically familiar. Is this a familiar story?

JONES: What we see is so familiar because the conditions of our life have changed significantly. And so, what's happening is that we are carrying the burden of this limited opportunities in our body and it shows up as the diabetes, the heart disease, the hypertension. Even in terms of, you know, immune compromise and all of that.

GUPTA: Already we are hearing from some officials that blacks have been disproportionately hit by the outbreak. Early data shows that in Michigan, where I grew up, 14 percent of the population is black. Though they make up 41 percent of coronavirus deaths.

In Illinois, 15 percent identify as African-American. But they make up 42 percent of deaths. Louisiana's population is 32 percent black which accounts for about 70 percent of coronavirus death.

But here's the problem according to Dr. Jones, as inadequate as testing has been for the country, the problem is even worse for African-Americans.

JONES: Our whole national testing strategy has started out as a clinical strategy not a public health strategy. That of course, has disadvantaged the whole nation in terms of knowing who is impacted. And I am told also that it has been harder for many people of color to get to test just because of where testing stations have been located.

GUPTA: While blacks are less likely to be tested, less likely to be treated, they are more likely to be on the front line. Essential workers upon whom we all depend.

JASON HARGROVE, BUS DRIVER: We are here as public workers doing our job trying to make an honest living to take care of our families.

GUPTA: Detroit bus driver Jason Hargrove posted this online on March 21.

JONES: It is not as easy for them to shelter in place. And it's not as easy because it might have front facing jobs like home health aides or bus drivers or postal workers or working at Amazon, and the like.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARGROVE: For you to get on a bus and stand on the bus, and cough several times without covering up your mouth and you know that we are in a middle of pandemic, that lets -- that lets me know that some folks don't care.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: Four days later, Hargrove who is 50 years old became ill. He died last Wednesday. It's still unclear how he got COVID-19.

Don, there's no question there have been long standing structural inequalities as we laid out there. We couldn't even get into all the various things that sort of comprise that. But I think there's two things outstanding. One is that we need to

continue collecting data and that data needs to be broken down by demographic so we can really understand what's happening here. But also, if there is a really tragic story of the rationing of care, hopefully that doesn't happen, but if we get to that point, we want to make sure that those same structural inequalities don't manifest with regard to rationing as well. Don?

[23:25:00]

LEMON: Dr. Gupta, thank you very much. I appreciate that. Let's discuss further now with Dr. Brian Williams. He is a trauma surgeon and co-director of the surgical ICU at the University of Chicago. Doctor, it's a pleasure to have you on. Thank you so much. I appreciate you joining us.

BRIAN WILLIAMS, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF TRAUMA & ACUTE CARE SURGERY, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO: Thank you for having me, Don. I appreciate it.

LEMON: You're in my former city of Chicago. The disparity in deaths among African-Americans they are startling. We know other places like Milwaukee, New Orleans, and Louisiana where I'm from where I grew up, struggling with the same issue. What are you seeing where you are?

WILLIAMS: Well, here in Chicago as you mentioned, we just had a report that 70 percent of the deaths from COVI are African-American patients. And right now, we are at the University of Chicago we still have capacity. We have beds and ventilators. So, we're working with the state and the city to prepare for that surge.

But I worked at big public hospitals in Atlanta and Dallas. So, it was not a surprise to me although it is still very distressing to learn how devastating this virus has been to black Americans.

LEMON: All right. Having said that, I'm glad you said that. Because I want you to listen to what the president said at the briefing tonight about African-American victims getting hit hard by the virus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We're trying to find out why it is that it's three and four times. Now maybe that's not going to be the final number. But why is it three or four times more so for the black community as opposed to other people? It doesn't make sense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: It doesn't make sense to him. But I mean, we get it. And part of which is what Dr. Sanjay Gupta said in his piece it's racial disparities, it is healthcare disparities, it is preexisting conditions, it is poverty and on and on. Go ahead, doctor.

WILLIAMS: Well, I think it's very important for us how we shape this narrative when we talk about race being a risk factor for COVID-19 and other medical conditions. We have to look at structural racism and how that it's impacting these patients. So, when we talk about race, we put the onus upon these individual patients. We talk about structural racism and the economic and environmental and healthcare barriers that vulnerable groups have to overcome to get healthcare.

So that's something that we collectively can all work to close those gaps so that in times of crisis like we are now and we are seeing black Americans being devastated by this, we can come together and close those gaps and provide adequate treatment for everyone who ends up in the hospital.

LEMON: There's one thing that's been very disturbing to me. And that it is this sort of cartoonish rumor that has been going around saying that African-Americans think that they cannot get the coronavirus because they are immune to it.

No one that I know, no black person that I know takes that seriously. They know that it is a joke on the internet. As a matter of fact, as I was going around the weeks before the people had shelter in place, as I traveled to D.C. to do work or to Florida where ever I was going I would see African-Americans in masks. People who are taking it seriously.

So, I don't -- I find it disturbing that people are spreading that as if African-Americans are that stupid to believe that they are not susceptible to this disease. That is simply not true, doctor. Can you please talk about that? Because I don't believe that that is true. I think that that is just a stupid rumor.

WILLIAMS: Well, it's absolutely false. COVID-19 have shown that it has no respect for anyone's race, ethnicity, economic status. We've seen heads of state get infected. We've seen homeless people get infected.

So, this notion that race or ethnicity is somehow protected against the virus is absolutely false. But what is important to recognize that certain races and ethnicities are more vulnerable to the negative impact of the virus due to structural inequities that persist within our communities, such as access to healthcare.

Black Americans are two times more likely to be uninsured than white Americans. There's economic disparities. There's environmental disparities. So, the question to ask is not are black Americans immune to this disease but why are so many black Americans in vulnerable positions are suffering as a result of this pandemic crisis.

LEMON: You've been very helpful. Thank you, Dr. Brian Williams. I really appreciate your time and your expertise. Thanks so much.

WILLIAMS: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

LEMON: There's been a lot of talk about using hydrochloroquine -- hydroxychloroquine to treat coronavirus patients. But it's not the only drug being looked at. I'm going to ask a member of the team researching antibody therapies and a former FDA official about the potential treatments out there.

[23:30:00]

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LEMON: So we're still many months away from a coronavirus vaccine but other treatments for COVID-19 are being explored. Antibody treatments are still undergoing clinical research. But one treatment in particular has been getting a lot of attention, hydroxychloroquine, which was approved by the FDA under an emergency order last month. But how effective is it really?

Let's discuss now with Dr. James Crowe. He is the director of the Vanderbilt University Medical Center. Dr. Crow, thank you so much for joining us. A lot of hope in the antibody therapy and that's something that you are researching. Dolly Parton donated $1 million to the university's effort. Can you explain this antibody therapy for us and tell us what you're finding?

JAMES CROWE, DIRECTOR, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: Yes. Antibodies are the body's natural immune system. It is the way that you fight off viruses and the way that you prevent getting sick again when you are exposed.

[23:35:04]

CROWE: So right now, you'll see lots of groups are trying to harvest antibodies and plasma and move them from an immune person who has recovered to another person at risk. That's being tried. What we're actually doing is trying to do that in a way that makes antibodies into a drug.

So we look through the immune cells of a person, the white blood cells circulating in the body, and we find particular ones that are good for SARS-CoV2. We capture them and then we can synthetically make the antibody from that person in the laboratory and eventually in a factory.

And so we're developing these antibodies very, very rapidly and we hope to be using them in clinical trials in the summer.

LEMON: I want to bring in now Dr. Peter Lurie. He is a former FDA official -- or Pete Lurie, who is an FDA official and the president of the Center for Science in the Public Interest. So, let's talk about the hydroxychloroquine with you. That's what we're hearing about the most. You worked at the FDA. You are concerned about using this drug as a large scale uncontrolled experiment to fight coronavirus. Why is that?

PETER LURIE, PRESIDENT, CENTER FOR SCIENCE IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST, FORMER FDA OFFICIAL: Well, you know, the way that we have made progress in medicine in the world has been through doing randomized control trials. And what I'm worried about is that because of the endorsement in effect from the president, what we have is widespread availability of the drug in such a way that it will be difficult to ever get the information at least domestically that we need.

So what we have is a product that's now widely available and although we have no certainty at all that it will be benefit, we have some certainty that there will be toxicity. There will be people who have heart toxicity as a result. There will people who have kidney toxicity as a result. And there will be patients for whom this drug has actually been approved by the FDA, those with lupus or rheumatoid arthritis, who won't be able to get the drug. That's very worrying.

LEMON: So, I was just happened to be watching Fox News before the show, putting clips together, taking them out of context about people who were just advising caution on touting this drug, not saying that it shouldn't be used but just advising caution, which I don't think is wrong to advice caution even if it's being used for another illness. It doesn't mean, Peter, that it should be used for this illness, at least not just yet.

LURIE: Right. I mean, look, everybody hopes that the drug will turn out to be effective.

LEMON: Exactly.

LURIE: Right. We all hope for that. But the fact is that with the great majority of drugs that are first introduced to humans don't turn out ultimately to earn FDA approval because they turn out to be unsafe or ineffective for the thing in which they are being tested. So that could usually happen here. We hope not.

But the only way we're going to make progress against this disease is by going back to the time honored approach of doing proper trial, not by listening to Laura Ingraham, not by listening to Dr. Rush (ph), not by listening to Rudy Giuliani, who was bringing it to the president's ear and telling him that this is going to be some miraculous cure.

LEMON: So Dr. Crowe, what do you think the timeline is for finding the right drugs and therapies to beat this pandemic?

CROWE: Hydroxychloroquine is actually going to be tested in a real trial, a controlled trial that is blinded on both sides. So the people who are receiving it will not know if they're getting it and the providers, doctors and nurses doing the trial will not know who is getting it. That just started. It's sponsored by the NIH. It is being led by our medical center, Vanderbilt, and the coordinating center MS General (ph).

So there's a trial. About 500 people were just started. I'm optimistic that we'll get an answer, does it work or not, or at least a preliminary answer from that type of trial rather than just using it.

And then second, these new therapies, antibodies, in which we will transfer part of the body's own immune system as a drug to inhibit the virus, these are going to be developed very rapidly. It will take a couple of months before we have the materials ready for clinical trials. But I think there's a lot of optimism that this might be a bridge to confirm immunity to a (ph) lot of people until we have a vaccine.

LEMON: Dr. Crowe and Peter Lurie, thank you both. I appreciate your time. LURIE: Thank you.

CROWE: Thank you.

LEMON: Some sad news tonight out of Vanderbilt University Medical Center where Dr. Crowe works and where they are looking for treatments for COVID-19. Grammy-winning singer-songwriter John Prine has died from complications of that disease. That is according to a spokesman for the Prine family.

Prine was hospitalized and intubated after what his family called a sudden onset of coronavirus symptoms. He beat cancer twice during his decades-long career. In 2005, he became the first singer-songwriter to perform at the Library of Congress.

[23:40:00]

LEMON: Rolling Stone once called him the "Mark Twain of American songwriting." John Prine was 73 years old.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

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[23:45:00]

LEMON: Less than two weeks after lawmakers approve a massive $2 trillion coronavirus relief package, administration and business officials are facing glitches, breakdowns, and frustrations as they work to roll out the much needed money. And all of this is happening as President Trump today fired the inspector general overseeing the stimulus money.

Joining me now to discuss is CNN Political Commentator Catherine Rampell. Hi, Catherine. Good to see you. Let us start with the firing of the man in charge of overseeing how that economic recovery money is being spent, Glenn Fine. You say this is an extremely bad sign. Why do you say that?

CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, you always want oversight, the executive branch activity that is especially so when we are talking about $2 trillion of taxpayer money being dispersed in some cases never before, you know, unprecedented ways through small business loans and expanded safety net programs, etcetera.

It is especially, especially true if we're talking about the administration that we have now that has lost all benefit of the doubt to be able to operate without oversight given the many ways that this president has either actually succeeded in or at least attempted to abuse his power, you know, doling out favors to cronies as well as punishing perceived political enemies.

So we absolutely want oversight. This was one of the key contentious last minute points of debate in the last -- I think it was the phase three coronavirus relief bill, that there should be some oversight. The fact that Trump has already pre-emptively essentially fired the person who would be conducting that oversight is extremely troubling.

LEMON: The president, Catherine, said that as of today, the Small Business Administration has processed $70 billion in loans and that the federal government is in talks to supplement those funds. But not everyone's loan has been processed and that there has been a lot of frustration for small business owners.

RAMPELL: Yes, that is absolutely true. There have been more than a few hiccups at this point with this lending program, again an unprecedented lending program, for small and medium sized businesses. And look, that was bound to happen, right? This is a new program. The SBA, the Small Business Administration, was not designed for anything of this scale.

But nonetheless, a lot of these problems need to be fixed as soon as possible. Businesses are desperate. They are worried that they are not going to be able to come back if and when the economy recovers -- excuse me, when the pandemic is under control in the very near future. But there have been problems with the SBA website going down with not enough log-ins for banks, with unclear guidance for what forms businesses need to fill out.

Banks themselves haven't gotten sufficient guidance about whether they will be able to move those loans off of their books. They are waiting for more information from the FED. So a lot of hiccups need to be worked out. And beyond that, of course, we need more money to be funneled into this program.

LEMON: Catherine Rampell, thank you. We'll be right back.

RAMPELL: Thank you.

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[23:50:00]

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LEMON: The president's Coronavirus Task Force has held over 30 press briefings on the pandemic so far, yet we haven't had a briefing from the CDC, the experts on diseases, since early March. So where is the CDC in all of this?

Here to discuss is Dr. Jeanne Marrazzo. She is a director of Infectious Diseases at the University of Alabama and is on the CDC Board of Scientific Counselors, an external advisory group. Doctor, thank you for joining us from Birmingham, Alabama. My former -- I used to live there, as well. I've lived almost everywhere. Thank you. I appreciate you joining us. I hope that you're doing well.

Listen, we now know that President Trump's trade adviser, Peter Navarro, sent a memo to the White House in late January, warning that the coronavirus could become a full-blown pandemic that could risk trillions of dollars in economic losses and the health of millions of Americans. Shouldn't that have set off a full-scale pandemic response from the administration and the CDC? JEANNE MARRAZZO, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA: Yeah, thanks for having me, Don, first of all. I'm glad you've been to Birmingham. You know, absolutely, it should have, and that should have amplified the concerns that had already been voiced by many scientists and public health people who were concerned about two things.

One is the epidemiology of these respiratory infections that have emerged from China and the best example is SARS. SARS came out as you know now about almost 20 years ago and could have been absolutely devastating. As it was, it did kill hundreds of people, but we were very lucky and contained it.

The second thing is that these viruses are incredibly infectious, these coronaviruses. And when they come out of this animal reservoir, which is where we think this one did, they are bad actors. We've never seen these in our bodies before. As you know well, this coronavirus is a completely new infection for us.

So we knew that there was a vulnerable population worldwide that could be infected with the virus that could potentially spread very easily from China and that makes us very nervous or made us very nervous at that time.

LEMON: Yeah.

[23:54:59]

LEMON: Doctor, you know the CDC hasn't held its own briefing since March 9th. What do you make of Dr. Redfield's role in all of this?

MARRAZZO: Well, Dr. Redfield is a political appointee, so he serves at the pleasure of the president. The distinction there is he is the leader of a cadre of incredible scientists and public health warriors, really. I mean the people at the CDC who have been through this many times with influenza, with SARS, with -- you name it, anthrax, all the things that we've been confronted with over the last several decades, these people are pros.

They know what they're doing. And that's why their absence from not so much the presidential briefings, I would love to see them there, but I would love to see them in their own briefing and being more out there answering our questions.

LEMON: All right. Doctor, thank you. That's all we have time for. We appreciate you joining us. Thanks so much.

MARRAZZO: Thank you. Stay healthy.

LEMON: You, as well. And thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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