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Don Lemon Tonight

New Coronavirus Guidelines Coming Out From The White House; Governors To Decide On States' Reopening Of Economy; Gov. Jared Polis (D-CO) Is Interviewed About The Plan To Reopen Businesses In The State; More Than 637,000 U.S. Coronavirus Cases, More Than 30,800 Deaths; President Trump Is Told Testing Is Key To Reopening During Business Panel Call; People With Coronavirus May Be Most Infectious Before They Show Symptoms; SBA Warns Paycheck Protection Will Run Out Of Money Today. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired April 15, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: As you can see, it is time for the happiest time of my evening. Time to give it to D. Lemon for "CNN TONIGHT."

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: I know why it's the happiest because there is no love in the Cuomo household for the actual original Cuomo in that house.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: This is the last face (Inaudible) that likes me. When mama gets sick and it's because of you, times are tough.

LEMON: Yes, I know. I feel bad and you know I do. Because you know she's my favorite Cuomo.

CUOMO: She's everybody's favorite.

LEMON: I know.

CUOMO: That's why this is so rough on me.

LEMON: Well, you got to --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: But, look, she's doing OK, D. She's doing OK.

LEMON: Yes, I know. I'm going to text her after the show, but it was weird because my other half knew before I did because apparently, they're better friends than she and I are, so that's how that is.

CUOMO: Well, he's been great. So have you. He checks in with her a lot. But you know, anybody who knows Christina, she's a total trooper -- LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- and has it together, but I just hate that she's been taking care of me, and, you know, the reward is that she's now sick herself. I'm just hoping she has a milder case. So far that seems to be the case.

LEMON: Good.

CUOMO: She's stronger than I am. She's got a better immune system. She takes better care of herself. And the kids are stepping up. You'd be proud of your nieces and nephew. Bella is stepping up, Mario, Cha-cha, everybody's doing what they need to do to let mom rest.

LEMON: Good. Can I talk about your last guest just for a moment? My heart goes out to their entire family.

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: Because it has hit their family. And you know how it is when it hits a family. Luckily your family at this moment better off, and it's going to stay that way, we know it will.

But let that be a lesson that you can have faith, but you also have to heed the warnings of the authorities and the people who -- and the experts. And so, I think that should be a lesson to people who are trying to gather, whether it's 10 or more people in places that you shouldn't do it.

God loves you. God wants you to praise Him and glorify Him and raise His name, but at this moment in our history, at this time, it's better if you do that at a distance. Socially distant. And that means at home or whether it's streaming or whatever, that you shouldn't be doing it.

So, I just say my heart goes out to that family. Bless them, but they should be a lesson to everyone out there who is trying to defy the authorities who are saying don't do it.

CUOMO: It's a big loss to the community. Margery (Ph) and the family are telling the people listen to the warnings, heed the warnings.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: I don't think the guy was a flouter. I think that there was doubt and there are too many who have had doubt with not good enough a reason all over this country, and it continues. And now we'll see it, Don, when we go to the next step of what it's like to re-open, which I'm scared to death about.

LEMON: And you should be.

CUOMO: Because we do not have the testing capabilities down. We will not be safe in any of these places if we can't trace and treat and test. But when they say to wear a mask, people are going to get frustrated.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: When they say you got to wait in these lines, people are going to get frustrated and we're going to have problems until we learn to adjust to the new normal.

LEMON: Yes. And we don't know what the new normal is going to be. Chris, take care of yourself. Take care of your family. We'll see you tomorrow.

CUOMO: Love you.

LEMON: Yes. Love you as well.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Here's our breaking news. More than 637,000 cases of coronavirus in this country, more than 30,800 Americans have died. Let me say that again. We are quickly, quickly approaching 31,000 Americans dead. Just a matter of weeks into a pandemic and months, likely over a year, until we have a vaccine.

None of us has ever lived through anything like this. And tonight, we are realizing just how long a road ahead it's going to be, how big a fight this is. Yet, the president says that he'll -- he will announce new federal guidelines tomorrow meant to re-open this country.

And sources are telling CNN that he is laser-focused on a May 1st re- opening, or even earlier. One source admitting that's mostly a symbolic date. That as business leaders are warning the president there would need to be guarantees of increased coronavirus testing before people return to work.

And another sign of just how important testing is, a new study finds that people may be most likely to spread the disease two or three days before they have any symptoms of the virus. Meaning the more well you seem, the more you could be spreading the virus around if you're infected. And if you don't even know it.

[22:05:07]

And you probably wouldn't even know it because we don't have the widespread testing business leaders, health experts, state and local governments and telling the president what we need.

So, this is a vicious cycle. More local leaders now requiring people to wear masks or face coverings any time that they go out in public. Governors of New York, Maryland issuing executive orders today. Connecticut's governor expected to issue new mask guidelines this week.

And starting at midnight, Los Angeles will require face masks when residents leave home or essential -- on essential errands. L.A. also won't allow concerts and sporting events until probably next year. No concerts. No games. Wearing a mask any time you go out in public. I've said it before. There will be nothing normal about our new normal. And in the midst of all of this, a defensive, dodging responsibility

-- president dodging responsibility tonight for the testing business leaders are telling him he needs before the economy can re-open and putting the blame on the states yet again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: On a call with business leaders today, they said testing has got to be ramped up significantly before the country -- before they feel comfortable re- opening their stores, their restaurants.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Sure.

COLLINS: Whatnot. Isn't that what health officials and state governors --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: It's what I want, too. We have great tests and we want the tests to administer these tests for the most part, but we're standing behind them. We have great tests. We've done more testing than any country, as you know, in the world, by far. We have the best test of any country in world. Nobody has the quality of tests.

If you look at Abbot, what they've come up with in a short period of time, they've been incredible. Roache has been incredible. We have the best tests in the world and we will be working very much with the governors of the state. We want them to be doing it.

We're not going to be running a parking lot in Arkansas. We're not going to be running a parking lot where you have a Walmart, which has been great, by the way. Walmart has done a fantastic job. But where you have a testing center and running that from Washington, D.C. The states are always better equipped to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: It's always the best, the biggest, the greatest ever. You ever notice that? He said the states are much better equipped to handle testing, but he promised over a month ago that everybody would be able to get a test.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Anybody that needs a test, gets a test. They're there. They have the tests and the tests are beautiful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. Beautiful as well. That's another one. Blaming the states for the lack of testing, but trying to have it both ways. Falsely claiming that he has absolute power to close down what a state is doing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: And if we're not happy, we'll take very strong action against a state or a governor. If we're not happy with the job a governor's doing, we'll let them know about it. And as you know, we have very strong action we can take, including a close-down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, there is a lot of misinformation because he says it over and over again, we have to say it over and over again, right, to counter the misinformation. The fact is he cannot close down states. He can't force governors to bend to his will.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: What do you mean a close-down?

TRUMP: We have the right to do whatever we want, but we wouldn't do that. But, no, we would have the right to close down what they're doing if we want to do that.

COLLINS: You think --

TRUMP: But we don't want to do that and I don't think there will be any reason to do that, but we have the right to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, the president claims that he can do whatever he wants. That after he acknowledged just last night that the governors are the ones who have the power to re-open their own states.

This is such a colossal waste of the country's time right now. Don't you feel like your time is being wasted when you tune into that? It's like drama. It's like a soap opera. You know it's going to be a fight with a reporter. Every day you can kind of script it, right? But it's a really -- it's a colossal waste of your time. What information are you getting out of there?

Are we going to go back and forth with this performance every single day? Best dramatic performance by a president, Donald Trump. Yes, I said it. It's simply not true that the president can do whatever he wants. Never has been. And he knows it. And with all of this, what is the president doing? Well, he's getting his name on stimulus checks sent to millions of Americans to rescue the economy from the coronavirus crisis. The president saying this tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Well, I don't know too much about it, but I understand my name is there. I don't know where they're going, how they're going. I do understand it's not delaying anything. And I'm satisfied with that. I don't imagine it's a big deal. I'm sure people will be very happy to get a big, fat, beautiful check and my name is on it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:09:58]

LEMON: Well, we live in New York and we know how he likes his name on things, especially buildings, so now on checks. The words President Donald J. Trump will appear in a memo line -- in the memo line on the checks. It's the first time a president's name will be written on an IRS check.

Two senior treasury officials told the Washington Post that the move will probably set back the delivery date on the first set of paper checks, but the IRS insists the last-minute change won't delay the checks. And many people will get their payments via direct deposit. Some of those payments already showing up in the bank accounts.

But I guess this should be no surprise from the man who for decades has put his name on everything from hotels to golf courses to steaks to a so-called university that led to a series of lawsuits, cases he settled for $25 million.

And this is just incredible. The president, who loves to think of himself as a master showman, the star of the Trump show, reportedly want to start his own talk radio show. Two hours every day with Americans calling in on an open line to talk one-on-one with the president. He pitched the idea at a meeting of the coronavirus task force in the

situation room last month.

And get this, the New York Times is reporting that he had second thoughts, only because he didn't want to compete with Rush Limbaugh. So, not because spending two hours a day every day doing a live radio show might not be the best use of the president's time, as thousands of Americans are dying. But because he didn't want to step on the toes of the man he gave the Medal of Freedom to, the man who said this last month.

(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)

RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO HOST: This coronavirus, they're just -- all of this panic is just not warranted.

(END VOICE CLIP)

LEMON: The man who said this.

(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)

LIMBAUGH: We're shutting down our country because of the -- the cold virus, which is what coronaviruses are. This is COVID-19, the 19th version of the coronavirus.

(END VOICE CLIP)

LEMON: It's not the 19th version. It's 2019. That's why it's called COVID-19. It's not the common cold. It's killed more than 30,000 Americans and you know why it's called COVID-19? Because it was identified in China in December of 2019. It's not the 19th version, again, as I said, of the coronavirus. Those are the facts. But Kellyanne Conway doesn't seem to have gotten the memo.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: This is COVID-19, not COVID-1, folks. And so, you would think the people charged with the World Health Organization facts and figures would be on top of that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: She loves a catchy line. Even when it's wrong. Maybe she would have learned after alternative facts. Whatever. OK. You know, she is the senior counselor to the president. One of the people who is supposed to be advising him on this deadly crisis. Should be on top of the fact that the novel coronavirus, novel meaning new, by the way, that it emerged in 2019.

So, it is a new virus. Not the 19th version of anything. And it emerged in 2019. You would think that she would know that. And you know what? Maybe she does. You got to wonder whether it's nothing but a talking point to play to the base, same talking point that we heard from Rush Limbaugh, downplaying a deadly pandemic that is killing Americans as we speak.

Who knows whether it's, you know, devious or ignorance? But either way, it does absolutely nothing at all to contribute to solving this crisis. It's just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Noise, noise, noise, noise, noise. Meant to throw you off. Meant to defend.

You need facts. You need information, people. That's what you need. Stop falling for the okey-doke.

So, let's get the facts while we're at it, Dr. Sanjay Gupta's here and our White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins. Good evening to both of you.

Kaitlan, the president planning to unveil new federal coronavirus guidelines tomorrow. What do we know about -- what do we know because he, again, falsely claims that he can override what governors are planning to do in their own states? What's up with that?

COLLINS: Yes, you've seen him go back and forth on that. He went from saying he had total authority, then yesterday saying he wasn't going to pressure any governors. And today he was back in the Rose Garden saying that if a governor is doing something he doesn't like, he can close that down, though he didn't really expand on what exactly that means.

[22:14:56]

But we do know that they're going to unveil these new guidelines tomorrow after they have a call with all of the governors. What we're questioning still is what exactly these guidelines are going to look like.

Now we were told they are going to come sooner rather than later. The president has been hinting that he believes there are some states than can re-open before the end of the guidelines that he's already issued -- extend -- expire, I should say, at the end of April.

But we're not expecting right now for them to be state specific. They had toyed with that idea once. Now it seems like more they're going to issue these guidelines and basically tell states if your state is ready to adopt this then you can, if not, keep doing what you are doing.

But of course, the president is really the wild card in all of this, Don, because he's been the one making the statements saying that if certain state is not open or it's not doing the things that he wants, then he can get involved.

When of course we know that governors, not just Democrats, but also Republicans have been pushing back on that saying, no, they have the ultimate authority that comes to that and they'll be making the decisions when things start to re-open in their respective states.

LEMON: Dr. Gupta, hello to you. The president is again saying that some states may open before May 1st. What would that do to the progress that has been made, opening early, not everybody tested, so on and so forth?

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, if we start to have a resurgence of cases, which we have history, you know, if you look throughout history, you've seen that. You even have examples now around the world.

Singapore, for example, has an amazing public health system. But they had a resurgence of cases when they opened perhaps too soon. It's a tricky dance here, Don, for sure. I think without a question, the one constant in all of this is the virus. The virus is still out there. It's still contiguous. It can still make people sick, and even in rare cases that people -- it is can lead to people's death.

So, once you start to re-open, unless you have everything in place, adequate testing, adequate hospital capacity, all that, it's -- it's a dicey proposition. The concern is you could -- you could go back to square one. That is a possibility. Meaning, you know, you start to -- you start to see what has happened over the last several weeks again a few weeks from now, which is exactly what you don't want.

LEMON: Kaitlan, I saw you out there on the lawn today pressing the president on industry leaders. Telling him that ramping up testing is key to re-opening the country. Did you get what you needed from him? What did he say about that?

COLLINS: No. The president didn't really address those concerns, and that was our question, because we know on this call that the president had today these were executives who have restaurants, retail stores, hospitality. Some of them financial and banking.

And they basically told the president before they open, they want to see ramped up testing in the United States. And they basically do not feel comfortable at the levels that they're seeing right now.

So, the question is, did the president hear that? Is he listening to that? And is that factoring into these guidelines that we're seeing coming out tomorrow? And you know, what is the level of testing they want to see before they feel comfortable doing so?

The president didn't really expand on that at all. He didn't offer any insight into exactly what that testing looks like. He just maintained what we've been hearing from him, which is he's saying testing is doing fine in the United States right now. Which is we know not the case.

We've heard that from health experts, from governors, and now we're hearing it from these business executives. And that's really going to make the ultimate decision. Because even if states do say that certain businesses can open, if they don't feel comfortable, and if they don't feel that consumers are going to feel comfortable, that's really going to be the deciding factor in whether or not the country re-opens.

LEMON: And you're right. If someone who is in business, right, a company, if they start to bring workers in, those workers start getting sick, they're not going to -- it's not going to be the president who is responsible for those workers, it's going to be the bosses.

Those are the people that are going to be getting sued, right, and who are going to be responsible if people start getting sick in the workplace. So that's not the president's responsibility. The president can't decide that. It's the people who run those companies.

Dr. Gupta, speaking of the testing. We have been talking about this whether, you know, I asked you, does that mean that you're immune once you get it? Dr. Fauci is saying that he's not sure if these antibody tests are really accurate. So how big of a deal is that, as this conversation moves to people returning to the workplace and cities and states opening back up again?

GUPTA: Yes, I think there was somewhat of a rush to get these antibody tests out there, Don. Maybe some of it understandable. Obviously, a lot of people are clamoring for this new testing and then, you know, pushing for new therapeutics.

Understandably. We're in the middle of a pandemic. But I think this was rushed a little bit. These were not validated tests. They were just approved under emergency authorization and now we're coming to find out that some of them may be giving very inaccurate results.

The concern, Don. If you get an antibody test and it comes back positive but it's a false positive, you may be sort of given the impression that you now have antibodies and that you're, you know, immune, at least for a period of time.

We don't -- by the way, we don't know that to be the case. It should be the case because other viruses have created that sort of immunity once you're infected, but if you have a false positive, that would obviously be a false sense of security.

[22:19:59]

And so that's the antibody test, looking for antibodies in your blood. The other test is looking for the virus itself.

And one thing about that, Don, to Kaitlan's point, I mean, we focus a lot on the numbers, you know, whatever, I think it's 3.5 million roughly tests that have been performed now in the country.

But I think the real question is, for people who need to get the test, wherever they may live in the country, right now today can they say, I need to get this test, here's where I would go get it, here's who would do it and here's how quickly I'd get my results?

It doesn't matter how many tests you have unless everybody in the country can have some confidence that they can get that test right now, the tests are not widespread enough. I'm not saying everybody in the country needs to get a test. To be clear. We're not going to test 328 million people. But --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But you should be able to test -- you should be able to if you need it to, is that right? Not that everyone should get it.

GUPTA: Everybody should be able to get access.

LEMON: Right.

GUPTA: Right. People should be able to have access to this test. That maybe in certain hospitals right now but maybe not in the communities. I'm still hearing from people that even now they're worried because they have minor symptoms, whatever it might be. They don't quite know how to navigate the process of getting tested. Some communities better than others.

LEMON: Yes.

GUPTA: There are hotlines in various cities and things like that. But not everywhere. And that's a problem.

LEMON: Yes.

GUPTA: Because if you start to get clusters of cases re-emerge as we're coming out of this curve, that can turn into exponential growth again and that would be terrible, Don.

LEMON: Well, doctor, make sure you take care of yourself. Get some sleep, please, because you've got a busy day. You're busy every day. But tomorrow is an especially important day for you. Thank you both.

Because you got to tune in tomorrow. Dr. Gupta and Anderson Cooper, they're going to host CNN's Global Town Hall, this time with special guests. It's going to be Mark Zuckerberg, it's going to be Joe Biden and it's going to be his wife -- well, Mark Zuckerberg's wife, Priscilla Chan. So, make sure you tune into that Coronavirus: Facts and Fears live tomorrow night at 8 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

We also want to tell you about a new study that finds that people may be most likely to spread the coronavirus two or three days before they have any symptoms. Proof that testing is really important right now. We're going to ask the Colorado governor. There he is, Jared Polis about that. What's going on in his state. That's next.

[22:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A new study finds that people may be most likely to spread the coronavirus two or three days before they have any symptoms, before they have any clue that they're infected. Which tells you just how important testing is. And when President Trump was asked about that tonight, he passed the buck to the governors and then said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: If we're not happy, we'll take very strong action against a state or a governor. If we're not happy with the job a governor is doing, we'll let them know about it. And as you know, we have very strong action we can take, including a close-down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: All right. Well, speaking of governors, let's talk to one now. Colorado Governor Jared Polis is here.

Thank you, Governor, for joining us. I appreciate it again this evening.

I know from speaking to you through the course of this crisis that the president can say what he wants, but you are going to do what you think is best, in the best interest of your state and for the people that you have to govern there. What is -- what -- what is that right now in terms of making plans to re-open up -- to re-open, I should say, more of your state?

GOV. JARED POLIS (D-CO): Well, look, the president, like any other American, has freedom of speech. He can say what he wants. He can tweet what he wants.

On the ground, in the states, governors and mayors are taking extraordinary measures to save lives and to be able to re-open the economy as quickly as possible. And right now, in Colorado and most states that means folks need to stay at home. They need to wear masks when they go out.

We're doing our best to try to reduce this exponential expansion of the virus, which has showed sometimes -- some signs of plateauing, but we know that when we get back to some degree of functionality and sustainability, things aren't going to look exactly like they did. I just wish the whole country was on the same team here.

LEMON: Yes, that there was a national plan, right? Listen, you also said today that you'll likely know more within the next five days, which is interesting. How effective that this social distancing has been. Your office has really been using this anonymized metadata from people's phones to track whether people are following guidelines. What have you learned from that?

POLIS: So today I talked to a number of governors from neighboring states, Utah, Wyoming, Kansas, New Mexico, about how we can really move forward regionally. Certainly, the metadata of how people are moving is a big part of that.

We are able to working with Google and others find the degree that people are moving around less. It's anonymized. There's no privacy concerns. We don't care who you are. We just care how much people are moving around and interacting with one another. That gives us a top line indicator.

Our sensitivity is down. We're somewhere between 70 percent and 80 percent social distancing in Colorado. And even that number is going to make a big difference, Don. If we're closer to 80, we're able to open sooner. If we're closer to 60 or 70, it's going to take a little bit longer to get this thing under control including additional staffs.

LEMON: I want to talk about the meat plant because a fourth person has reportedly died at the JBS meat plant in Greeley, Colorado, and another person at a different plant in Fort Morgan. How does this impact both public health and the food supply, governor?

POLIS: So, the health department is -- and the JBS have worked out a closure. They're closing for 14 days. I think they're already a couple of days into that. The Cargill plant is still open. They've taken extraordinary precautions around separating workers and providing quality masks for workers.

These are important to our food supply, but as long as we bring them back online soon, I don't think consumers across the country are going to notice a disruption. But we've seen in South Dakota, we've seen in Colorado, these are examples of what we're going to face as we move towards re-opening more of the economy.

These -- these large factory-like environments where a lot of people congregate, and we have hundreds of people with coronavirus in just that one plant, in Weld County, the same in South Dakota.

LEMON: Governor, listen, I really appreciate you joining us. You take the time to come on this show and to update the people, not only of your state, but the country because everyone is dealing with this and I thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. We hope that you'll come back.

POLIS: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Thank you.

[22:29:56]

Business leaders telling the president testing needs to be ramped up before people return to work, but right now private lab tests per week are down. The truth about testing. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Industry leaders telling President Trump in a call today that ramped up coronavirus testing is needed before Americans can return to work. Here with the truth about testing, CNN's Drew Griffin.

Drew, good evening to you once again. So a question for you, private lab tests per week are actually down, Drew. Shouldn't testing be going up?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they should be, Don. That is certainly what we would expect as the entire world seems to ask for more testing. We know they are down because we survey the American Clinical Laboratory Association. These are the really big, big labs. And if you take a look, the first week of April to the second week of April, the testing that was done at these big labs actually dropped by about 14 percent, by our calculations.

[22:35:08]

That is not necessarily all bad. It could mean that local hospitals, local labs are picking up the slack and not having to send these lab tests to these big labs where there have been some turnaround times. The big labs tell us that they have got capacity to handle more and more testing, should it be needed.

The problem remains all across the country, Don, in the supplies, the reagent chemicals they need and also the nose swabs, even as a lot of newer ways to test are coming online. So not necessarily bad that the big labs have dropped but we are watching that trend very carefully.

LEMON: The FDA has authorized two more antibody tests to check for immunity. How close are we to a widely-available test for that?

GRIFFIN: You know, that is the big question. While they approved these emergency use authorizations, it's not really approval, they're just allowing them to have this emergency use authorization. It's tough for me to gauge how these companies are scaling up. One company that seems to have the capacity to have huge antibody testing does not have emergency use authorization. And that's Abbott labs.

Despite that, the company's pretty confident their test works. They're going to have 20 million available by the end of June. And, of course, this is the test that a lot of us will be looking for to see if we have had and recovered from covid-19 and when we find out for sure, if that recovery also means we carry immunity, which would allow us basically to go back into society without the risk of infection.

I know the National Cancer Institute is helping the FDA evaluate the new tests that are coming online. We just have to wait and see, number one, if they work. Number two, how quickly these companies can get these out to us so we can use them. Pretty easy. Finger prick. Put it on a piece of, like, paper, basically. See if it turns a different color and you will know.

LEMON: Well, one would think. These are strange times to say the least. Drew, thank you so much, I appreciate it. See you soon. Most medical experts are saying, nothing will be back to normal until

a coronavirus vaccine is found, but my next guest isn't sure, that will even -- that will even do it. What we do -- what we do and don't know about the coronavirus next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:40:00]

LEMON: The more we learn about the coronavirus, the more we realize how big a challenge this will be to defeat, so joining me now is CNN Medical Analyst, Dr. Larry Brilliant. Hi, doctor. You doing OK? Staying healthy?

DR. LARRY BRILLIANT, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST, EPIDEMIOLOGIST: Thank you for asking. Yes.

LEMON: Absolutely, good. That's good news.

BRILLIANT: Coping.

LEMON: Yes, so we're finding more about the coronavirus by the day, but it's also showing us just how insidious it is. Now we're learning asymptomatic people may be the most contagious. So big picture here, do we know enough about this virus right now to be making all these predictions about everything, about when we should open and on -- and so on and so forth?

BRILLIANT: No. It not only is asymptomatic patients, it's pre- symptomatic patients, and we're finding out that this virus affects the heart, not just the lungs, the kidney. The question is what part of the body doesn't it affect? Every day we learn something new.

LEMON: Right. So when we talk about these models, when we talk about where we are on the curve, can we even determine that given the very limited amount of testing that we are doing and the fact that we are only testing people who are already suspect to be sick?

BRILLIANT: Well, big picture, you know, epidemiologists say all models are wrong but many are still very useful. The image that we have of this epidemic curve, we say we're going to reach a peak. We look at it.

It looks like Mt. Fuji in our minds, out here Mt. Shasta, a single solitary mountain. I don't think it's going to look like that. I think a better image is wave of a tsunami with echoed waves that follow, and it's up to us how big those other waves would be.

Let me give you two examples. In 1918 when we had the Spanish flu, the great influenza, in San Francisco around November, December, when the cases went almost down to zero, the city fathers said, let's open up the city. Let's have a great big parade downtown. We'll all take off our masks together. Two months later because of that event, the great influenza came back whirring.

I had the same experience in India, in the smallpox problem twice. We thought we had reach zero once, we called a global telecom, whatever was the equivalent then in the 1970s, 1980s. And we had to call it off because we were premature. And I hope we don't make the same mistake.

I hope we see this for what is going to be. We are going to get back to normal. We're still going to love, we have a lot of wonderful things, but we should have a three-year plan.

LEMON: Well, I was just listening to Dr. Gupta earlier, I think what did he say, 3is that right, three million people have been tested -- I have my notes here somewhere.

BRILLIANT: That's about right.

LEMON: OK.

BRILLIANT: I think that's about right.

LEMON: When you look at a country above up to 350 million-plus people, that's a very small amount. So how is this information even reliable when you look at so few people who have been tested? That's where I get so many people who email me or text me or send me on social media, how do we know that? Even doctors?

BRILLIANT: How about if you just multiply that by 10.

[22:45:03]

LEMON: Right.

BRILLIANT: Say it's 30 million.

LEMON: 30 million, right.

BRILLIANT: That had the virus and, you know, immuno converted. They're now safe. But that makes 310 million people who are customers for this virus, which would like to just keep on chewing through us.

LEMON: Yes.

BRILLIANT: We have to be very, very careful. As we find other ways to open things up, not the country, things up, places up, very cautiously. Let's do this the right way and let the virus lead us and find out where the virus is going to go before we say we're going to open up the whole country.

LEMON: Right. Another unknown is immunity and how long it may last. I want you to listen to what Dr. Fauci said today about antibody tests.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALERGY AND INFECTOUS DISEASE: We're not sure if they're really accurate, but let's say they work. The thing we don't know yet is what is the relationship between the level of antibody and the degree of your protection? So you may be positive for an antibody, but not enough to protect you. And then have that person put their guard down and wind up getting infected.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So how badly will it complicate the fight if antibody tests aren't -- aren't even accurate?

BRILLIANT: Oh, it will be terrible, but I think we will get there. I think the epidemiologist Holy Grail of having a pin prick test in your home, as someone earlier said, that changes the color of --

LEMON: Drew Griffin.

BRILLIANT: Yes, exactly. I think we will get there. The bigger issue is how long it will take and what else is going on. But we will get there. I'm pretty confident about that. I do want to mention that the four sister viruses, there are actually six other coronaviruses, you know MERS and SARS.

LEMON: Right.

BRILLIANT: And there's up to four other viruses that create the common cold. They don't seem to do very well at creating long-term immunity. But we need to find out whether we can create a vaccine that creates more immunity than the disease does. And that's not so wild. Many of the vaccines that we've made in history are actually stronger than the viruses itself at creating immunity.

LEMON: So you mean there are 18 other coronaviruses that came before this?

BRILLIANT: No, only six.

LEMON: I'm being facetious about what they've been saying. This is not one, this is 19. Thank you, doctor.

BRILLIANT: Thank you, Don. Very nice to talk to you.

LEMON: We can use a little laugh. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

BRILLIANT: I'm with you.

LEMON: Yes. The emergency loan program set up for small businesses is already running out of money. What happens to the people in need of that money? I'm going to ask a former labor secretary next.

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[22:50:00]

LEMON: The president's name will appear on checks being sent to millions of Americans as part of the coronavirus relief stimulus. Two senior treasury officials telling the Washington Post this week that the decision could end up slowing down the date of the first set of paper checks as they get sent out. The IRS insisting today that the move won't cause a delay. Here's what the president said tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I don't know too much about it, but I understand my name is there. I don't know where they're going, how they're going. I do understand it's not delaying anything. And I'm satisfied with that. I don't imagine it's a big deal. I'm sure people will be very happy to get a big, fat, beautiful check and my name is on it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So joining me now to discuss this is the former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers.

Larry, good to see you. I hope you're doing well and safe and healthy.

LARRY SUMMERS, FORMER CLINTON TREASURY SECRETARY: Good to see you.

LEMON: Absolutely. So, you are the treasury secretary. The IRS is saying adding the president's name won't cause a delay despite this being the last minute request from the treasury, what do you think, will it?

SUMMERS: Pretty unlikely that they're going to be able to reprogram the computers to make the checks look different on very short notice when the secretary of the treasury kept it a secret that that was the plan from senior officials at the IRS for weeks.

And look, if they're able to do this, it'll be the first technological thing that this administration has accomplished competently in weeks and months. Much better to try to be competent in things like giving tests to desperately ill people, at contact tracing that can save lives.

If there are people in the administration who are so brilliant in handling computers, why are they working on turning IRS checks into billboards advertising the president's re-election? This is really disgusting.

LEMON: Yes, is this the kind of thing that would just magically happen and the president would know nothing about it. Because he said he didn't know anything, but he said I do understand --

(CROSSTALK)

SUMMERS: He talked about the possibility. He talked about the possibility that journalism looks clear. I can tell you the IRS is run by civil servants. Some of the most dedicated and competent civil servants in the government. That they would wake up one morning and have the idea of turning their checks for the first time in history into advertisements for the president of the United States in the midst of an economic emergency, inconceivable.

This idea came from the president and was conveyed by his sycophant secretary of the treasury to the IRS. Secretary of the treasury has no business micromanaging the IRS in this kind -- in this kind of way. This is a failure up and down the line. [22:55:00]

LEMON: Yes. So, secretary, listen, you know, a huge headline today, the emergency loan program set up for small businesses is already running out of money. What does that mean for the people who need that assistance, and what needs to happen right away to fix this?

SUMMERS: Look, it's a real problem, and we need money to move. And the president needs to sign the legislation that the Congress is eager to pass, not try to play political games with it. And it points out another problem that we're going to have to fix going forward.

The people who don't need the money, the hedge funds that have a limited number of employees but are hardly in need, the fat-cat law firms that lobby in Washington that have taken this money, they're the people who manage to get first in line.

The people who aren't there are the pizza shops, and the florists, and the barbershops, and the people who keep the disadvantaged communities of this country going and who hold them together but don't have lawyers who can brief them on how to apply for the payroll protection plan. So, we need to protect the payrolls that need protecting. We need to focus on helping genuinely small businesses that are in need, not consulting firms.

I mean, the set of people who apparently are eligible is sort of beyond belief. And we need to fix this legislation and inject more money but make sure that that money goes to the people who need it most, the people who are on the front lines of genuinely small businesses.

LEMON: Secretary Summers, thank you for your time. Stay safe, OK?

SUMMERS: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you.

More than 30,000 people have died from the coronavirus in the U.S. as the White House prepares to announce new federal guidelines. We've got the latest information next.

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