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Don Lemon Tonight

Three-Phased COVID-19 Guidelines Released by the White House; Mayor Tom Barrett (D) of Milwaukee Was Interviewed About the New Guidelines from the White House and About the Upcoming DNC Convention; Governors Raise Questions About Massive Testing; White House Announces Guidelines Outlining Three Phases For States To Re-Open; Criteria For Entering Phased Opening; More Than 670,000 U.S. Coronavirus Cases, More Than 33,000 Americans Have Died; 22 Million Americans Filed For Unemployment In Last Four Weeks. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired April 16, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

We have breaking news on the coronavirus. There are more than 667,000 cases in the U.S. tonight. More than 32,900 people have died. That as the president tonight announced his new guidelines for states to reopen, and just one day after claiming that he could -- his words -- close down any state if he didn't like what they were doing.

Well, the president does a 180 today telling governors they will call the shots. His new guidelines which won't be mandatory call for a two- week sustained decrease in cases for the states can begin to reopen, also saying states would have the responsibility to quickly set up safe and efficient testing.

The president has said over and over that he doesn't want to be responsible for any of that. He said it again tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're going to be watching over. We're going to see that everything is working out smoothly. We're in very strong communication with the governors. We're going to be helping with testing. They're going to be doing the testing. It's got to be a localized thing. And it really has been since I've been in involved because I came in and the federal government is supposed to do testing of parking lots in the middle of the certain state that's 2,000 miles away. It's ridiculous

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, it doesn't matter how far away the parking lot is, it doesn't matter what state it's in, we're all at risk from this virus. Yet the president who just days ago was insisting he has absolute authority over the states now says the governors will call the shots. Several current and former senior administration officials tell the

Washington Post he's just trying to shield himself from blame if there are outbreaks or other problems after states reopen.

So, let's take a very close look at what the White House released tonight and walk through it together, OK. The guidelines the president announced tonight are in three phases. This is the proposal for states to decide.

The first phase calls for vulnerable people to shelter-in-place. Telework is encouraged with the return to work in phases, if possible. Schools will remain closed. No gatherings larger than 10 people. Non- essential travel would be minimized. Big venues like restaurants and gyms could operate as long as they maintain strict social distancing. But bars would remain closed.

In phase two, vulnerable people continue to shelter-in-place, and telework is still encouraged. Schools would reopen. Gathers of more than 50 people should be avoided, which sounds like smaller gathering like dinner parties and family visits would be OK.

Non-essential travel like vacations could resume. Big restaurants and gyms would remain open. And bars would reopen with diminished standing room occupancy.

Phase three, vulnerable people can go out in public but should still practice social distancing, no restrictions in workplaces and big venues can remain open with limited physical distancing.

Now, the fact is a phased reopening makes sense as Dr. Anthony Fauci said -- has said. Reopening America is not going to be like turning on a light switch. But the guidelines the president announced tonight are not about reopening America. They're about individual states in very different phases reopening.

But what happens if people travel from a phase three state to a phase one state? The virus doesn't care about borders between states. And experts tell us that there will likely be more cases, more people getting sick and dying when states begin to reopen. Yet the president says tonight that he thinks states that are in good shape could begin to e reopen tomorrow.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does this mean that states such as Montana and Utah that are underneath that getting period, would they be able to go to in phase one as early as say, tomorrow if the governor decides.

TRUMP: You're talking about those states that are in great shape already?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

TRUMP: They will be able to go literally tomorrow, yes. Because they've met all of the guidelines.

[22:05:01]

If you go back, you're going back 14 days, you're going back even a month. And they have -- the ones that I'm thinking about, the ones that I've already spoken to governors about, they've met those guidelines actually pretty long ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, they could do that anyway even without the guidelines, it's up to them. The president says he thinks that some states could begin to reopen right away. But states and communities across the country including New York, D.C., Wisconsin, Missouri, Kansas, and Los Angeles have already extended their stay-at-home guidelines past the president's hoped for day of May 1st.

The governors of Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois, Indianan, and Kentucky say they will work together on plans for reopening. They join groups on of east and west coast states working on own their phased reopening plans.

Governor Jay Inslee of Washington State saying the president will not be interfering with his state's stay-at-home order, going on to say, quote, "he has decided to follow the Constitution which is always a good thing to make sure that we can make our decisions for what is best for Washington here in Washington."

The president tonight also suggesting that world leaders were not adequately warned about the coronavirus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I was angry because it should have been told to us. It should have been told to us early. It should have been told to us a lot sooner. People knew it was happening and people didn't want to talk about it. I don't know why, but we're going to get to the bottom of it. But people should have --

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People in China? Or I mean --

TRUMP: people -- I'm not saying anything. I'm saying people should have told us about this. They should have told the rest of the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: The president not mentioning China by name, but a senior administration official confirms to CNN that China warned the U.S. about what was described as a concerning outbreak of pneumonia in Wuhan on January 3rd.

China's foreign ministry spokesperson said today China informed the U.S. about prevention and control measures 30 times since that first notification. That as the president praise his own response to the coronavirus tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Because of our early and aggressive action, we have avoided the tragedy of healthcare rationing and deadly short falls that have befallen many other nations, nations which wherever possible, we are helping.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Americans don't seem to agree. A brand-new Pew poll finds that 65 percent of Americans think the president was too slow to take major steps to address the outbreak. And with serious questions tonight about whether we have any of the testing treatment or tracing capabilities needed to implement the guidelines, we can't afford to keep repeating that mistake.

Kaitlan Collins is here and Dr. Amy Compton-Phillips is here as well. Thank you both for joining. Kaitlan, the president is laying out a multi-phase approach for how states can reopen. I just went through it. So, I'm going to put up what's in phase one while we talk here. OK?

This is phase one. Here it is. Put it up. Before we reach that point, states need a lot more testing. So, what does this again -- when does this begin, I should say?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's what's so interesting about the president saying that some states can start this tomorrow. Because if you look at the beginning of this packet that they distribute to governors, they talk about how really the criteria for meeting each phase is you've got to see, you know, a downward trajectory in your number of cases, you know, you've got to be able to have enough people in hospitals, things like that.

But it doesn't really say what number of cases they should have, or what the number of people in hospital -- hospitalizations should be, things of that nature. They don't really have specifics for that. Maybe because it's state by state. But it's a little vague at the beginning there.

And so, you know, the question really is going to be and the concern that we've heard is about the testing and whether or not it's adequate throughout the nation. And it's not just the president's critics who were saying we don't have enough testing, we're not ready for this yet. And it's not just cases or states like California, Washington, New York, that are voicing concerning about this.

The president has heard from business executives, from a bipartisan group of senators and from governors today saying that they still have concerns about opening the country before they have an adequate testing system.

And one thing that this plan that the president rolled out tonight doesn't address is how they're going to ramp up that testing system.

LEMON: And how everyone around the country is going to know which phase they're in and they're going to comply with all these phases. Good luck with that.

OK. So, let's talk about phase two, Dr. Compton-Phillips. The president is saying some states could literally open tomorrow. Are we there yet?

AMY COMPTON-PHILLIPS, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: We really have to make sure that we can do what the data and the science says we have to do which is absolutely be able to contact trace and test anybody who's been exposed to somebody with coronavirus, right?

And right now, we don't really have that infrastructure built yet to do either one, to do either the testing for everybody or the contact tracing because it's really complicated.

[22:09:59]

It takes a lot of public health resources or it takes an app. You know, it takes some kind of technology. And we still haven't had the conversation about what that technology is that's going to allow us because right now we don't have the public health infrastructure everywhere to be able to do that contact tracing.

LEMON: Yes. So, Kaitlan, we want people to be on, as I said, you know, people are going to wonder which phase they're in. That's going to be tough, you know, people paying attention to figure out if I'm in phase one and I want to go to a phase two state or on and on and on.

So, let's talk about mixed messages because I'm -- are we getting mixed messages from what we hear from Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx and then what we're hearing from the president?

COLLINS: Well, so we watched that press briefing today where they unveiled these new guidelines. We heard from Dr. Birx and Dr. Fauci. And then I watched Dr. Birx in the CNN town hall tonight and one really notable difference is the responsibility about this testing.

The president is repeatedly putting it back on states even though he came up with a lot of initiatives that had the federal government partnering with places like Target, Walmart, CVS to set up testing sites. Now he's saying the federal government shouldn't be running states like that. States should be doing it.

But when you listen to Dr. Birx tonight, someone who of course work extensively with HIV and AIDS has been through similar situations to, you know, developing things with not a lot of resources before she talked about how important it is to have seamless teamwork between the federal government, these states, and even these localities because she said that is really going to be what's critical to developing these systems like you're talking about, not creating confusion over what phase people are in, if it differs county by county in certain states.

So, she really highlighted the partnership there of the federal government. The president has been putting it more on states when you listen to him and talk to him about these concerns about testing. LEMON: OK. So, doctor, I'm just -- all right. I'm just -- as a -- I'm

just trying to be a person, a normal citizen, OK? This isn't Don Lemon the news anchor. You're not a -- well, I'm asking you for professional advice.

So, if I'm in, let's say, in New York -- I'm just -- and New Jersey -- let's just say New York -- I'm just doing a hypothetical here. New York is phase three and New Jersey is phase one, and I just drive across the river to see somebody and I'm asymptomatic but I'm spreading or shedding. So, what --

COMPTON-PHILLIPS: It could be bad. It could be bad. In fact, you know, one thing I think we really should be able to do, you know, at the upside or the downside is we haven't gone first in the world here in the U.S. with having -- having either our spike in infections nor being able thinking about reopening the country.

And what we're seeing in other countries that are starting to reopen is exactly what you're talking about, Don, that people coming from more places where there are more infections into places, they've gotten it under control are bringing back the infections with them. It's a real issue.

And so, what a lot of places are doing now, whether it's China or Shanghai or New Zealand or when you travel from one place to another, you're going to be put 14 days of quarantine because of the risk of bringing the germ with you.

And the challenge is in the states are we going to do that if you go from Illinois to Missouri, you get put in 14 days of quarantine? So, I think there's a lot of questions and a lot of details in the plan that really need to be worked out before we could actually move forward with it.

LEMON: What if I go away on vacation and to a place that -- and then come back -- OK. I -- you see what I'm saying. Right? So, it's a bit confusing.

COMPTON-PHILLIPS: I see you.

LEMON: Go on, I'm sorry. You want to say something?

COMPTON-PHILLIPS: No, it's definitely confusing. And we have to have incredible amounts of testing.

LEMON: Yes.

COMPTON-PHILLIPS: So that's the other thing. If you can travel, if you go and you can get an on-demand test to see whether or not you picked up the virus, well, that would be hugely helpful. But right now, we don't have that level of testing available on demand for asymptomatic people.

LEMON: So, there's a lot of what ifs and we don't know at this point, and the key is testing, correct?

COMPTON-PHILLIPS: The key is testing.

LEMON: OK. So, there's a report that COVID-19 patients receiving an experimental drug called Remdesivir, right? And we've heard about this Remdesivir before. And this is -- this is good news. I hope it's working. I'm sure most people are. That they have been recovering quickly. We have to be cautious here. The study is ongoing. So, we still don't have official results. But is this encouraging?

COMPTON-PHILLIPS: It's definitely encouraging. Any time that there's potentially a drug that's going to help a virus that otherwise has no cure, it's very encouraging. But I would say it's really important to follow the studies because there's a lot of things that are promising and when you study them turn out not to be great.

So, that's why right now what we're doing with Remdesivir is lots and lots of clinical trials to get the weight of information to know whether or not this really is a real effect or whether it's, you know, lucky people got Remdesivir versus the drug actually making them better.

And so, I think it's going to be very important to finish out those trials but right now we've all got our fingers crossed.

[22:14:58]

LEMON: Hey, Kaitlan, I have to get to a mayor to talk to him about some of this stuff -- talk to her about some of the stuff, but I just want to know, has anybody -- him, right? Because it's Tom Barrett from Milwaukee.

But I just want to know is anybody asking the questions, I'm sure you guys are, that I just to ask, so what if you're moving around, you're going to a vacation, if you're asymptomatic, are they answering these questions at the White House for you? Are they thinking about these things?

COLLINS: I think people are still looking through these guidelines. Those are still going to be questions that we have because that is going to be a really big factor. The contact tracing is the other thing. Because it is going to require so much staffing.

And we know Dr. Birx has been speaking with hospitals about that, speaking with certain states about doing pilot programs in their areas. So that's going to be a really big question as we're moving forward. And of course, we'll have to wait to see if any of these governors actually start to implement these practices starting tomorrow or if they wait and they move on their own terms like a lot of the governors have said they would.

LEMON: Yes. We need to know -- we need that before tomorrow if they want to open it. Thank you both. I appreciate your time.

Wisconsin, one of the states extending their stay-at-home orders today. So, I want to bring in mow Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett. I just mentioned Tom Barrett. Mayor, thank you so much. I really appreciate you joining us. MAYOR TOM BARRETT (D-WI): Thank you.

LEMON: It is a very, very serious time and we know that you're very busy and you have to deal with the folks where you live. So, listen, Wisconsin just extended the stay-at-home order until May 26th. So, how do you think the president's new three-phase plan fits into what you are doing?

BARRETT: I think what the president did today was he issued a political statement and you talked about it, about trying to distance himself if things don't go well in the states.

But I can tell you here in Wisconsin and specifically in Milwaukee, we've been working to try to deal with these issues, notwithstanding all the noise and the conflicting information we were getting from the president of the United States because we're dealing with it on a daily basis.

In Milwaukee County, we surpassed 2,000 positive cases today. We've had over 100 people die. And we have to deal with this in a real -- in a real sense. And so, we don't have the luxury of being able to go back and forth and pointing the finger at anybody because we see it. We see it firsthand what's going on here in the Midwest.

LEMON: Do you understand the questions that I was asking the doctor and to Kaitlan about the not having sort of a plan -- a national plan? Because if you go from a place that has one phase to a place that has another phase and then you're asymptomatic and you don't know it and you're a carrier -- do you understand what I'm saying?

BARRETT: I totally understand. And that's why I think it makes sense and you're seeing this not coming out of Washington. You're seeing it in the northeast where the governors are saying this is a region of the country, it goes beyond one state's borders.

And you're seeing it in the Midwest today with the announcement of seven Midwestern states. We're not relying on the president. And it's because we're not seeing the leadership that we need to see and you're seeing on the west coast.

You compare this with Germany where Germany was able to come together with a plan for the entire country because you were getting the leadership from the top.

LEMON: Right.

BARRETT: We clearly have not had that here. And so, the governors, I think, and the mayors to some extent are the ones that have to gather the solution because we don't, again, have that luxury of being able to have press conferences every day where you change the news every day, change the news.

LEMON: Right. So, right. To hours long breast briefing with the national news media there so that you can, as you say, change the news. One of the benchmarks to reach the first phase include a sustained decrease in cases over a 14-day period. What will it take to reach that for your city do you think? Do you even know?

BARRETT: Well, without a doubt it's the stay-at-home orders and the stay-at-home order. And again, I applaud our governor, Governor Evers, when he did this for the state, that really was the beginning, I think of the progress that we have seen. And we've seen Wisconsin drop in the rankings of states that (AUDIO GAP).

And so, he did that relatively early when we could see what the direction this was going. So, I think every state has to do that. You saw in places like South Dakota where it didn't happen and the big outburst at the meat packing plant.

LEMON: Right.

BARRETT: You've seen in places like Iowa they didn't do it and now they're getting more cases. So, I think the earlier you do that, we all know that now, the earlier a state was acting in the area the more progress they're likely to make.

And it's not -- it's not always a same political party. I think in Ohio I think Governor DeWine was clearly out in front of this and I think as a result of that, Ohio has made some pretty significant progress.

LEMON: Yes. And you hear from the administration well, some places are not touched or they're touched very little and then you actually see the reports coming from the local places and it doesn't really jive or line up with what the administration is saying. And I think every corner has been touched, maybe not as much as others.

[22:20:00]

So, I want to talk to you about your city. It was due to be the host of the Democratic National Convention in August. It was meant to be in mid-July. If we're looking at these new federal guidelines, a big gathering like that isn't really, you know, until phase three of this, right, these guidelines.

Do you see this convention happening or like Vice President Biden has suggested, could this end up being a virtual convention? What do you think?

BARRETT: Well, I know two things for sure. I know for certain that the Democrats are going to nominate a candidate, and that candidate's going to be Joe Biden obviously. And they're going to nominate him in Milwaukee. Those are the two things I know for certain. I'm very confident about those things.

But as the previous speaker said we have to follow the science on this. And what do I like? I'd like to be normal again that have thousands of visitors here. It's a beautiful time of year. But we don't know whether people are going to want to travel at that time.

So, we don't know exactly what it's going to be. But we're going to continue to prepare and that's what we should do. But I'd love us to have life back to normal and just be a huge shout in the arm for our restaurants, for our hotels.

But I'm realistic. I'm realistic that we have to follow the science here. I think everybody understands that. We don't know whether people are going to want to travel. We don't know what the guidance is going to be on traveling but we're going to continue to prepare because we want to be able to show Milwaukee is a place that's emerged from this, and that's my goal.

And the decision to move the convention from July 13th to the week of August 17th, that made all the sense in the world. I'm very supportive of that. I'm very pleased that they've made that decision. So, we're honored to host the convention --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Do you think it's likely or unlikely that you're going to have it?

BARRETT: We'll have a convention. Again, whether it's going to be a convention with 50,000 people, I think that's a bigger question. I don't necessarily see that happening right now. But you'll have people here. And that's what we want. We want to have that happen.

LEMON: Mayor Barrett, thank you. Good luck.

BARRETT: Thank you very much.

LEMON: You be safe. You be safe. Thank you so much.

BARRETT: Thank you.

LEMON: Well, I hope you will all join me along with our very own Van Jones for a look at coronavirus in communities of color. We're going to have a special conversation and messages of hope from Sean Diddy Combs, also from America Ferrer, Charles Barkley, and many. The color of COVID, live, Saturday at 10 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

And you know, experts agree we need more testing before we can reopen states. Governors are telling the White House that that we need more to be able to do this. Well, we're going to tell you what kinds of tests are out there and whether you can get one or not. The truth about testing, next.

[22:25:00]

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LEMON: President Trump claiming tonight that some states could open literally tomorrow if they meet the guidelines laid out by the White House, guidelines that are not mandatory.

But a source telling CNN that several governors today pressed the president over a lack of testing, a critical component for any phased reopening.

Joining me with the truth about testing, CNN's Drew Griffin. Drew, hello to you. Thanks so much for joining. So, testing is going to be absolutely essential to any plan and we don't have what we need and we haven't had what we needed from the very beginning of this. So, break -- break this down for us. What kind of tests are out there? And which ones are being worked on?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, part of the problem, Don, there's no national plan and there's all kinds of tests, testing all different things at all different points of this virus.

So, first of all, you have the molecular tests. These are tests for sick people, people getting sick, people who think they are sick, people who have coronavirus immediately. This is the throat or the nasal swabs that you've seen. Also, they just gave emergency use authorization for a saliva test where you can just spit in a vile, send that off to a lab.

And you've heard a lot on your show about this rapid point of care test that Abbott has, this rapid I.D. gives you results in 15 minutes. That's for all people who are sick or getting sick.

The other part of the program is the serological. These are the blood tests to find out if you had it, you recovered, maybe you're immune from it. This is for not sick people but people who have gotten better. Finger prick. It's pretty quick when you can do it. They've got four different tests now with emergency use authorization. So, those are the two basic buckets but all different kind of tests being done within those two different buckets.

LEMON: So, Drew, these tests that have been authorized better emergency use like the saliva and the antibody test --

GRIFFIN: Correct.

LEMON: -- where are they in terms of widespread availability?

GRIFFIN: That's a real good question, Don, because they are not. They are not widespread. They are not available. These are companies that have just got, you know, their authorization. They are just ramping up.

In fact, the first antibody test is a company called Cellex. Cellex tell they can't even get their tests out of China. They're still fighting some red tape and some bureaucracy over there just to get them here. So, all of these new tests really are going to take a while to get up to speed as we try to move forward with testing.

LEMON: All right. Drew Griffin. Thank you very much. I appreciate that truth about testing.

Could some parts of the country really open tomorrow? And if so, what might they be risking? That's next.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DON LEMON, CNN HOST: The president announcing guidelines outlining

three phases of how to reopen states. But he says governors will call the shots. Let's discuss now with Dr. Mark McClellan, the former FDA commissioner under President George W. Bush, and Jeremy Konyndyk, a senior policy fellow at the Center for Global Development, he focuses on global outbreak preparedness. It's so great to have both of you on because you have expertise in this. Let see, I'm going to start with Dr. McClellan. When you see these phases and what's required for each, do you think they make sense?

DR. MARK MCCLELLAN, FORMER FDA COMMISSIONER: Don, I think this is the right kind of framework. It's got steps that people need to take to not go back to life the way it was, but social distancing, staying home if you have any symptoms that resemble covid-19. It's got stuff that businesses to take. It's got steps for the state and local governments to build a better surveillance system.

I would like to see more testing capacity built into this. And I want to emphasize that this is a framework, that there's still a lot of work for the governors and the businesses and the people of each state to do to make this kind of approach really work, really succeed in a path toward reopening.

LEMON: But that's if I said, do they make sense? But do you think people can actually follow, realistically follow these? I guess that's the gist of my question.

MCCLELLAN: Well, I think most people, Don, are following the guidance that they have now which is staying at home, staying in place. I think people will -- there will need to be some outreach to the American public, some collaboration with business to get these steps implemented effectively.

[22:35:06]

And it's important to emphasize that the virus hasn't gone away just because we're getting past this initial surge. It's going to be with us for a while. So, there is a real chance of continued outbreaks. And if we aren't vigilant, we could end up and I hope we don't ever end up in a situation like we've just been through. But we could end up with those outbreaks happening again. So we are going to have to be careful about this steps.

LEMON: I hear what you are saying. I hope -- look, listen, I think people have been very good, so far for the most part, very good so far. But when you're thinking about phase one, phase two, what's in that phase and that phase. It's easy to say everybody stay home. I mean, you get it. That means stay home.

But when you say, OK, I've got to go to work, when I go to work, I have to do this. When I go to the park I have to do this. When I go to the grocery store I have to do this. When I go to a movie theater I have to do this. When I go to this place I have to do that. That's a lot of -- that's a lot of information for people who have to take care of their kids, they got to do the schools, they got to do the homework, they got to do what the boss says. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yes.

MCCLELLAN: I get it. I do. But for people, it's not a really long list. It's keeping track of any symptoms that you or someone in your family might have and staying home if there are any kind of symptoms that could be covid-related. So, it's basically respiratory-type symptoms, fever, things like that. And then when you go out, you need to keep the distance in place. Talk about six feet.

Talk about wearing a facial covering if you're closer to someone else. And following the other advice about keeping your hands away from your face, washing, et cetera. Those are things that people need to be doing anyway, even if they're at home. For businesses, there are similarly a list of set things that they should be doing to protect their customers and their workers.

LEMON: OK. I got you. So, I want to bring in the other doctor. So, Jeremy, the big question is when places will be able to enter phase one -- and we have phase one up right now -- this is gaining cafeteria for that, OK? Criteria, excuse me, gaining criteria for that which includes downward trends in reported symptoms and cases and a beefed- up hospital response. Obviously, every place is different. But how long will it take for most places to get to this point?

JEREMY KONYNDYK, SENIOR POLICY FELLOW AT THE CENTER FOR GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT: I think we're ways away from that yet. And it might -- I agree with Dr. McClellan, I think there are a lot of -- I think this is a useful framework that this document lays out. And my biggest concern about it is it gives a useful framework for where we need to get to. It doesn't really say much about how we're going to get there or how we know when we got in there. So, you know, what the document lays out is, yes, this gating criteria, I think it is a useful, but they also very importantly lay out that states need to be able to test very widely.

They need to have much more resilience in their hospital system. They need to have sufficient supply of PPE. They need to be able to do full-on contact tracing. You know, we're not able to do those things in this country right now and frankly most of them we're not very close to being able to do them. And so, the gating criteria alone are not enough if there's other capabilities aren't in place.

And right now, they're not for the most part. And so, I'm concerned that this plan is laying out a set of goals for what needs to happen without really saying how it's going to happen and what the federal role will be in making that happen. We can't just leave all this to the states.

LEMON: So, how does that happen? Real quickly, how do -- what do you think they need to do? What are they missing here?

KONYNDYK: I think we need a much more detailed implementation plan for this that lays out -- you know, it's fine to say the states need to be able to access sufficient PPE. No one would disagree with that. How are they going to do that? Where are they going to find that production? It's fine to say the states need to be able to test more widely. Again, where do they find the reagents? Where do they find the swabs and the testing materials? You know, there are these bottlenecks that we're facing now that are not being resolved that are going to make a lot of what's in here very difficult to achieve.

LEMON: Jeremy, Mark, thank you so much. I appreciate your time.

KONYNDYK: Thank you.

MCCLELLAN: Thank you for having me.

LEMON: New reports coming out about what this virus does to peoples' bodies, and there could be long-term effects that we're just learning about. We're going to dig into those next.

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[22:40:00]

LEMON: So, this is our breaking news. More than 670,000 coronavirus cases in this country. Over 33,000 people have died. But we're learning a lot more about the long-term effects of this virus on the human body.

I want to discuss now with Dr. William Schaffner, he is a professor of infectious diseases at Vanderbilt University. Doctor, always good to have you. Thank you so much for joining us. You know, we know this virus can be brutal on the lungs, but now there are reports that it is beyond just that. There's a lot that we still need to learn about this. But a person's health -- it's going to be compromised in the future wondering as a result of the impact of this virus?

We're waiting, I think we've lost him for the moment. We're trying to get Dr. Schaffner back. OK. We're going to try to get Dr. Schaffner back. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. Don't go anywhere.

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LEMON: So we're back now with Dr. William Schaffner. He's the professor of infectious diseases at Vanderbilt University. OK. So, let's try it again, doctor. So, listen --

DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: All right.

LEMON: -- we know this virus can be brutal on the lungs as we've said. But now there are reports that it's beyond just that. There's a lot that we still have to learn. But, you know, a person's health going forward can be compromised in the future as a result of the impact of this virus even if they do survive it.

SCHAFFNER: Yes, that's absolutely right now, Don. You know, when we first became acquainted with this virus, we were really impressed with its pneumonia. But then, as we've seen more and more patients up close and personal, it's clear that many body systems can be involved. The heart in particular can get inflammation, the liver, the intestinal tract, the kidneys -- some patients have to be on dialysis -- and then some people get skin rashes.

And we've all heard about the fact that you can lose your sense of smell and taste. So, there are a whole lot of things that can happen when you get coronavirus infection. Not every patient gets all of these things, but we're certainly more impressed with the entire spectrum.

LEMON: Yes, let's talk about the heart, OK? Because the Washington Post is reporting that clinicians are seeing evidence that the virus may be causing heart inflammation and irregular heart rhythms. What's a long-term impact of that? Is it heart disease? Do we yet know?

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SCHAFFNER: We don't know completely. Here's the thing. Could this be due to the virus itself? And that's a possibility. It can be invading some of the heart muscle cells. Or is it more the inflammatory response that the body creates? And then overcompensates and we get collateral damage? Maybe it's a combination of both. But you can see with this problem with the heart creating abnormal heart rhythms, why we're worried about using hydroxychloroquine because that drug can actually do the same thing. So, we want to proceed with care.

LEMON: There's also evidence, you know, about the kidney -- evidence of a kidney disease according to -- you know, Yale University, they've spoke to the Post, almost half of the people hospitalized because of coronavirus had blood or protein in their urine indicating early damage to the kidneys. Is it possible that we are going to see some covid survivors needing dialysis?

SCHAFFNER: There's no doubt that some patients in the acute faze of the illness certainly do need dialysis. But they usually are able to come off the dialysis and recover. Most of them. The question for all of these things, whether it's scarring in the lung, these rhythm problems in the heart. The kidney function. How long do they last? Will they be permanent damage to some degrees? We don't know that yet, because obviously we haven't followed the patients long enough. But it's a matter of concern.

LEMON: There's also reporting about some covid patients having red eyes? People have talk about losing smell and taste as you said. Reports of gastrointestinal issues. A lot of research do, because initially they thought it wasn't a G.I. thing, that wasn't a gastro intestinal and then later on that came to light. So, lots more research here.

SCHAFFNER: Yes. Absolutely. So, all of these organ systems can to one degree or another be affected in some patients. The question is, how much of that damage are we going to recover from? And how much will be left for us to deal with after we get over the virus. We'll just have to wait and see about that.

LEMON: Dr. Schaffner, we got it to work. And you got good information out there. So, thank you so much. I appreciate it. SCHAFFNER: Good to be with you, Don.

LEMON: You as well. Over 22 million people filing for unemployment in the past four weeks. This is small business loan program runs out of money. The economic toll of this crisis, next.

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[22:55:00]

LEMON: The number of people out of work due to this coronavirus crisis continues to climb. Another 5.2 million Americans filed for first time unemployment benefits last week. That puts four-week total during this crisis a 22 million people. While the president is laid out guidelines for the states to reopen, governors across the country still have stay at home orders in place. Some as far out as late May. And some with no end in sight. Restarting the economy isn't going to be as simple as flipping a switch. Joining me now, Austan Goolsbee, he is the former chairman of the council of economic adviser under President Barack Obama. It is always a pleasure to have you, sir. Are you doing OK?

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE, PRESIDENT OBAMA'S FORMER CHIEF ECONOMIST AND ECONOMIC PROFESSOR AT CHICAGO'S BOOTH SCHOOLS OF BUSINESS: Yes, thanks for having me back.

LEMON: Absolutely. So, again, as I said you were an economic adviser for President Obama. In one month, sir, this virus is destroying the job growth from the past decade. What's your assessment of where we are and how much worse this gets?

GOOLSBEE: Well, I mean, it's the worst 28 days in the history of American jobs by a lot. Factor of 10. There's never been anything like this. I'm just nervous that given these unbelievable numbers, they are actually an underestimate, because millions of people are trying to file for unemployment benefits and the systems in the states are totally overloaded.

So, they haven't even registered all the people that lost their jobs yet. Because they are still trying to get through. So, I think we better hope that we're able to rebound quicker than in a normal recovery. Because in a normal recovery the unemployment rate goes down about 1 percent, 1.5 percent a year. And the unemployment rate may well go to 15 percent or above in a single month when the next job numbers come out.

LEMON: Goodness gracious. You hope that the recovery effort during the great recession the president wants to get the economy going as soon as possible. But it's not going to be all at once it's state by state. Region by region. Not the big bang that the president was looking for I'm sure.

GOOLSBEE: Yes. Look, I think that's right. It's going to be job by job and industry by industry too. You know, the thing is as I say the number one rule of virus economics is that the best thing you can do for economics is get a controlled handle on the spread of that virus. And we now have some good lessons. If you look at Korea and Taiwan and Iceland. Now in Germany and New

Zealand, extensive testing has allowed them to get their economies out of lock down. And so they haven't had near as bad an experience as we have and their economies are coming back. And I cannot understand why we're not doing a massive ramp up in testing. It's what we have to do.

LEMON: Yes. Listen, $349 billion and it's not enough as we could see, because that was for the small business loans from the government. It's been exhausted. It's all gone. This is what the president said about that tonight.