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Don Lemon Tonight

White House Released Three-Phased Guidelines; 733 Workers Tested Positive for COVID; New Drug Shows Hope for COVID Victims; Major U.S. Pork Plant Shuts Down After Hundreds of Workers Test Positive for Coronavirus; Michael Cohen Will be Released from Prison Due to Pandemic; Twenty-two Million Americans File for Unemployment Over Four Weeks, $349 Billion Small Business Loan Program Now Depleted; Broncos Linebacker Von Miller Tests Positive for Coronavirus; A New York Emergency Room Doctor Says She's Never Going to be the Same After Working Through This Crisis. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired April 16, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: It's been exhausted, it's all gone. This is what the president said about that tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Exhausted is a good thing not a bad thing. It went quickly. It is so popular. The banks had been incredible. It was really executed flawlessly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, listen, $349 billion gone in less than two weeks. I mean, it wasn't flawless. There are so many businesses that couldn't even get their applications processed. It's not a victory lap. With so many businesses in real trouble at this point.

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE, FORMER CHIEF ECONOMIST FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA: Beyond real trouble. It is not a beauty contest. I mean, to say it was popular is an indicator that millions of businesses are losing everything. And what you saw happen here is they made the money first come first serve and then they piped it through the banks.

And so, the banks immediately went to the businesses that they already had relationships with. So, your local restaurant and bowling alley and places that are going to have to shut down none of them got money.

And if we come to find out now that who actually did got -- get end up getting the money were hedge funds and pass through entities of millionaires. I really think there's going to be grave outrage on the part of people because the $350 billion was meant to prevent small businesses in all sectors from shutting down. It wasn't meant to be reserve money, reserve for only the people who already had lines of credit at a bank.

LEMON: Austan Goolsbee, thank you so much, sir. I appreciate your time. This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

It is 11 p.m. on the East Coast. And here are the latest on the coronavirus pandemic. Here's the latest information, I should say. There are now more than 670,000 cases of coronavirus in the United States. More than 33,000 Americans have died from the disease. Worldwide, more than 2.1 million cases. And more than 140,000 deaths.

President Trump announcing new guidelines tonight for states to reopen their economies. But telling governors they will be the ones to call the shots on opening their individual states. And incredibly, saying that states which aren't being hit hard by the virus can reopen for business as early as tomorrow as long as they meet the new guidelines.

That as the CDC is reporting cases of coronavirus in all 50 states as well as Washington, D.C.

Joining me now to discuss is CNN White House correspondent, John Harwood, and our resident fact checker, Daniel Dale. Gentlemen, good evening.

John, the president ceded to the medical experts in laying out a multi-phase approach for reopening the country. So, walk us through phase one and when this could begin.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: He did, Don. And it was a framework that made sense in theory. Without specifying how we're going to get there. First of all, the state has to pass through the gate, shall we say, to get to phase one. And through the gate you have to have 14 days of declining COVID-cases.

You have to have a hospital system that can operate not in crisis mode. And you have to have enough testing and contact tracing to keep the new outbreaks under control. Not clear that any state can meet all those criteria now.

But if they get to phase one here's what it shows. Under phase one vulnerable people will shelter in place, as they are now. Telework at workplaces is encouraged. Phased return of workers. Schools remain closed. Avoid gatherings of more than 10 people and minimize non- essential travel. That's for starters.

LEMON: So, OK, John, so even when we arrive at phase two and, you know, at phase three of these new guidelines, we won't be going back to normal. Will we?

HARWOOD: No. This is going to be a new kind of life in the United States for some time. Certainly, until we get the vaccine.

To get to phase two and phase three, first of all states have to pass through the same gate they pass through phase one. Declining test. No sign of any rebound. But if you get to phase two, here's what it calls for. The vulnerable would continue to shelter in place.

They would -- businesses encourage teleworks. Schools would now open. You avoid gatherings of more than 50 people. Up from ten. Non- essential travel is OK. So, vacations that sort of thing. Bars and gyms would be able to open. Although with practicing social distancing.

To get to phase three, it's much more wide open. The vulnerable populations would be out and interacting with others. Workplaces would be unrestricted and those big sports venues -- that's one of the things that President Trump has been specially focused on. Baseball stadiums, that sort of thing could open with only limited physical distancing.

[23:05:03]

That's one of the biggest questions that experts have about this framework is whether that is a safe piece of guidance at this stage in this crisis.

LEMON: So, Daniel, governors will decide when they're ready for these phases. But President Trump is claiming that coronavirus isn't an issue in some states. I want you to take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: You have states without any problem. You have states with few cases and those few cases have healed. You have states with very little death. Relatively speaking. As I said, one is too many. But you have states with very little and frankly, they're at a point where they have almost nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What are the facts?

DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: Don, the president is a serial liar. But here's also within the category of serial lying. He's also a serial pointless exaggerator. It is accurate that some states are less hard hit than others. But the president said tonight that some states are not affected at all. That's not true.

As of 10 p.m. the Johns Hopkins tracker had the least hit states in terms of cases as Wyoming with 296. We know that is an undercount because that's confirmed cases. Tons of people aren't being tested.

And Don, the president tonight also said that some rural states won't even need to do testing and contact tracing because he said, they have a wide-open spaces and wide open plains.

We know that even the most rural states, take South Dakota for example. We have an outbreak there because they have a pork plant where there were cases. So even those rural places have pockets of density, have factories, have places where people congregate. There is no state even the most wide open that is immune from this issue.

LEMON: Yes. We're going to talk to someone from South Dakota coming up in the show to talk them about the issues going on there.

John, you know, the president isn't being truthful about the testing problem in this country. Isn't an important part of the states safely assessing if they can move into these phases?

HARWOOD: Maybe the most important missing piece right now, Don, and it's a little bit strange that the president is not recognizing this. He continues to assert we have the best test, that sort of thing.

Now, Deborah Birx, his task force coordinator said tonight that she and her aides had gone lab by lab and identified some surplus testing capacity. We're now testing about a million COVID test a week. She said they have identified unused capacity of another million a week.

Experts say that is still not adequate. And the question is how the states which are struggling to get not only testing kits but also the swabs and reagents and other supplies necessary as well as trained personnel to interpret the test and administer the test.

How do they get to where they need to be so that we can safely reopen? Not clear. There are proposals on Capitol Hill for $30 billion from Democrats to be testing procedures and testing purchasing by states. But that has not past the Congress yet.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it.

I want to bring in now Dr. Syra Madad. She is a special pathogens specialist. So, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it. So, doctor, you know, I want to get your reaction to these new White House guidelines. We all want to get back to normal. People want to get back to work. This is aspirational plan, right?

SYRA MADAD, SPECIAL PATHOGENS SPECIALIST: Absolutely. I mean, the guidelines that have been set out they're very vague. And you've heard so many people talk about testing. But you know, it's missing some of the core elements.

We don't have a comprehensive testing strategy here in the United States. It's just patch work, unfortunately. And we really need to ramp up our testing. We've been saying this for months now. And it's unfortunate.

And what goes along with testing is, you know, you've heard from other speakers, is we are having issues with the supply chain aspects. So, the reagents, the swabs, it's not just about doing broad scale testing. You need to make sure you have the supplies to do it.

But then you also need to make sure that, you know, after testing the other cornerstone is isolating these individuals. And then doing contact tracing. You know, a whole army of public health soldiers to do contract tracing and then quarantining those contacts. So, there's an entire strategy that's missing from these guidelines.

LEMON: So, this whole idea about the president saying that some states can literally open up tomorrow. One of the benchmarks of the first phase is a sustained decrease in cases of over a 14-day period. How can a state accurately know if they meet that threshold without widespread testing?

MADAD: That's exactly right. You know, you're basically operating in the blind if you can't do widespread testing. We need testing enable -- to be able to see what's actually happening in these states and then be able to go on to the next phase. And so, these are just arbitrary guidelines that really almost meaningless.

I mean, governors are going to continue to do what they're doing regardless of this. They know what needs to be done. They need a federal partner in this.

LEMON: So, doctor, let's say that this summer some states are in phase three. Others are in phase one. What happens if someone who lives in phase three state travels to a phase one state?

[23:10:08]

MADAD: That's a very good point. And that's something that needs to be considered. Because we don't want to have, you know, pockets of outbreaks anywhere. So, while you think that you may have -- you're in a state where you have things under control, you may have a resurgence of cases or clusters because people are moving in and out, not just domestically but internationally.

We're seeing this play out in other countries that are starting to lift their social distancing restrictions and you're seeing, you know, flares in those particular areas. And so, we need to be very mindful of that.

LEMON: The creator of the coronavirus model cited by the White House says that there's been more social distancing than expected. And that will factor into new estimates that will come out tomorrow. If social distancing has been so successful, what will happen when we stop it?

MADAD: Well, if we stop social distancing we'll absolutely rebound. We're going to go back to the state, to the state that we were and we're going to continue to climb. We're going to see a lot more morbidity, a lot more mortality.

You're going to see healthcare systems continue to get overwhelmed. They're already overwhelmed. This is going to take it to a whole new level. And it's going to be unfortunate. And so, these are the things that we want to absolutely avoid.

So, we need to make sure we're doing the right -- the right things and moving in the right direction. And we're absolutely not right now.

LEMON: So, listen, I know that you're not a political person, but there are people who have been critical saying that the models were off, right? And that and all of this was for naught.

But when you look at what the creator of this model have cited, right. This is the White House model. When he is saying that there's been more social distancing than expected. Meaning that it is worked better than they expect it.

So, doesn't that sort of refute what the critics are saying about this whole thing? MADAD: Well, models are, you know, they're models. You have best-case

scenario and a worst-case scenario. And luckily in this case the models were wrong in terms of some of their predictions which is, you know, (Inaudible) we're seeing less morbidity and less mortality than estimated.

But with the social distancing measures they're obviously working. We're able to flatten the curve in many parts, certainly here in New York City, though we're still seeing thousands of cases. We need to just continue on to do these measures and make sure that we have a bridge until we have a vaccine available.

And so, within this bridge that requires testing requires a much broader public health strategy in place that we need to continue to world towards.

LEMON: Let's talk about Remdesivir, OK? Because there's a report that coronavirus patients receiving this experimental drug, Remdesivir, that they are recovering very quickly. With most going home within days after having severe respiratory systems. The trial is still ongoing. But how encouraging is this?

MADAD: It is very encouraging. But at the same time, it is still a trial. So, we want to make sure that we actually have, you know, good data available. And that it can go through an FDA approval process fast to be able to be used widespread.

But it certainly sounds very promising. And this is something we need -- we need more glimmers of hope, if you will.

LEMON: Yes, absolutely. Dr. Syra Madad, thank you so much. I appreciate your time.

And I hope that you will join me along with my colleague Van Jones for a look at coronavirus in communities of color. We're going to have a special conversation and messages of hope from Sean Diddy Combs, Merica Ferrer, Charles Barkley, and many more. The color of COVID-19. It's live Saturday at 10 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

And across America everybody wants to know when the crisis will end. But the real question is, how do we continue? Is America prepared for what our lives will look or be like?

[23:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, more than 97 percent of Americans under stay-at-home orders tonight. That, as there are more than 670,000 cases of the coronavirus. More than 33,000 deaths. What will happen to those numbers if stay-at- home orders are lifted?

Joining me now, Juliette Kayyem, a CNN national security analyst, and Sarah Cobey, an associate professor of ecology and evolution at the University of Chicago. We're so happy that both of you are here. Juliette, you first. When you look at this plan the president rolled out tonight and you listen to how he sees the country coming back online. Is it realistic in your view?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Not at all. I mean, first of all, as everyone has been saying, it's ignoring the testing capacity makes the whole rest of the plan irrelevant.

The president came out with this plan, I think because the governors had essentially boxed him in. They are moving ahead figuring out how they are going to get out. But it's not today, it's not tomorrow. It's essentially not any time soon until you have tests.

The other problem with the plan is that it's so structured and formalized focusing on, you know, what I called he wants to be the party president. As focused on, you know, entertainment and sports and all of us getting together and partying again.

That's the exact flip of what we're going to want in terms of planning. You're going to start very slow, look at critical infrastructure, manufacturing, public schools. Get our kids back into school. Then slowly begin to open up as your testing capacity as well as treatment and other measures come into play.

So, you know, it came out four hours ago. And let's just say it has not aged well. You know, the only benefit of it is Fauci essentially got the president off a specific date.

LEMON: One more question for you.

KAYYEM: Yes.

LEMON: Tonight, Governor Ron DeSantis of Florida spoke about the testing his state has done. And we'll talk about -- watch this and then we'll talk.

KAYYEM: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): As you know testing has been a core of our strategy to fight COVID-19. We've now done almost 220,000 testing which is one for every 99 people in the state of Florida.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[23:20:05]

LEMON: OK, so he's only tested 1 percent of the state almost 22 million people.

KAYYEM: Right.

LEMON: Do his comments demonstrate just how far there is to go in testing?

KAYYEM: Exactly. They represent just living in never, never land. Because remember, you're not also testing just once. You're going to be testing over this period. This is what I describe as the adaptive recovery period. From today to the vaccine we are going to live very, very differently. We're not going to live like this. We will get out of our homes slowly but surely.

There's going to be better treatment. There's going to be better testing. There's going to be better more refined social distancing. We're going protect vulnerable populations. But it won't look like it did in 2019.

Abut it all is dependent on having some testing capacity through the next two years, right, until the vaccine comes. And that's what -- that's what Donald Trump and then some of these governors are not getting --

LEMON: OK.

KAYYEM: -- at this stage. And more people will die.

LEMON: All right. All right, Juliette, I think we need to reset your shot.

KAYYEM: OK.

LEMON: So, I'm going to go to Sarah right now. So, Sarah, listen, we are hearing a lot about modelling right now. And you're one of the people that actually runs some of those models. What are your models telling you about this fight and where we are?

SARAH COBEY, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF ECOLOGY AND EVOLUTION, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO: Well, I'm going to echo some points that were just made. And one of the most important points that relates both to how we reopen the economy and also how we interpret models, is that we don't have the greatest surveillance in place right now.

And so, we don't actually have a very good view of, you know, how much transparency there is and exactly what the best path forward is. So that's one of the greatest things that we're struggling with right now. When assembling this model is trying to interpret data that, as others has described is really coming from a patchwork of systems.

So, I think this is going to change soon, you know, in the next couple weeks to months as, you know, testing especially testing different types is increasing. But right now, the modeling is really underscoring the, you know, not-so hot capacity of our public health system and the uncertainty that we have going forward.

LEMON: Because of just how bad our testing has been, we still don't have a clear picture of everyone who has been infected. Does that make it hard to accurately model what is going to happen?

COBEY: That's absolutely right. That a question that scientists all over the world are struggling with right now. We don't know the frequency of asymptomatic infection. I mean, we have a rough idea of it. But knowing that number would make a huge, huge difference in understanding of like how different interventions and releasing different interventions, you know, like increase or decrease the number of cases. So that's a really key number that we don't have yet and we need to know.

LEMON: So, the president plan for reopening is going to be implemented on a state by state basis. Can models like yours help determine whether or not to that a state is ready to reopen?

COBEY: Yes. I think so. I mean, you know, as seen in the president's plan, you know, there needs to be probably different -- different strategies for different locations going forward. And that's probably because we're already on such different trajectories within this country.

So, we are going to need models that can adapt to the specific surveillance situation in each country -- or excuse me -- each state. And from that and like looking at how mobility changes in particular cities and counties, you know, impacted transmission than extrapolate what's going to be reasonable going forward.

LEMON: All right. Thank you both. Well, Juliette, at least we got you back. We got to say good-bye to you and see you again.

KAYYEM: Good-bye. Sorry.

LEMON: That's OK. It's not your fault. A lot of people are using, you know, the home and the web technology.

KAYYEM: I think -- I think they're all in my house. I'll tell the boys to stop with the games next time.

LEMON: Thank you both. I appreciate it.

KAYYEM: Have a good one.

LEMON: They got -- they have to have their fun. They're at home. Thank you.

KAYYEM: Yes.

LEMON: One of our biggest coronavirus outbreaks is happening at a now shuttered meat packing plant in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. We're going to go there next and we're going to speak to a representative for the workers.

[23:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: In South Dakota one of the largest pork processing facilities is closed indefinitely after hundreds of workers tested positive for COVID-19. It's one of many plants hit hard by the coronavirus. Raising concerns about how to protect the nation's food supply and the workers we rely on.

As some states preparing -- are preparing to reopen, how could hotspots throughout the country complicate their efforts?

So, joining me now to discuss is Kooper Caraway, the president of the Sioux Falls AFL-CIO. Cooper, thank you so much. We are so happy that you are here because this is a really, really, really important issue.

And according to the New York Times the Sioux Falls plant is now the nation's largest single source hotspot of coronavirus with the South Dakota Department of Health telling CNN there are at least 733 cases being traced to the plant. Are people affected by this getting the care and support that they need?

KOOPER CARAWAY, PRESIDENT, SIOUX FALLS AFL-CIO: For the most part, they're not. So, there's a very little testing for the most part folks are only being tested if they're showing symptoms. And so workers who maybe a symptomatic or workers who have been exposed to the other 600 who tested positive are not being tested.

[23:30:00]

LEMON: So, take us inside this plant. What is it like inside a plant like this? What might have been made the spread so severe?

KOOPER CARAWAY, PRESIDENT, SIOUX FALLS AFL-CIO: Well, this is an old plant. There are a lot of plants and factories that are just like this one. It's about 100 years old. It has narrow staircases, narrow hallways and things like that. So, people are mostly working shoulder- to-shoulder, they are rubbing elbows when walking down the hallway and on the assembly line. But the workers here identify the plant as a potential hot spot six weeks ago.

This is one of the most diverse workforces in the country. People in the plant speak over 80 languages. So, they're getting calls from family and friends from all over the world as the pandemic was increasing in severity. In Asia and Africa, the workers were getting calls from people all over the world. And so they blew the whistle about six weeks ago.

Unfortunately, our state government and our local management here drag their feet to the point to where by the time they implemented a lot of the safety procedures and changes, dozens of folks had already been tested positive and it was already too late.

LEMON: I'm glad you mentioned that, you're speaking of dragging their feet. Listen, I don't know if this is so, but answer the way you want. South Dakota's governor, Kristi Noem, has refused to issue a stay-at- home order for the state, saying that they are testing a lot and that it wouldn't have prevented this outbreak. How do people in the community feel about this?

CARAWAY: This is absolutely false. Working class people across Sioux Falls and across the state are feeling frustrated. They're feeling confused. They don't understand why their governor is not taking action. They've asked for a shelter-in-place ordinance. They've asked for a halt on evictions. They've asked for a halt on utility shut offs.

Our governor responded yesterday with comments that would make (INAUDIBLE). She said you have the freedom to shelter-in-place right now if you want to. She said you have a freedom to quarantine yourself in a hotel room right now if you want to or you have the freedom to work if you want to. These types of extreme ideological comments in the middle of an emergency, in a middle of a pandemic, are not welcome at all by working class people.

LEMON: So why do you think this is happening? You said extreme ideological comments. Why do you think this is -- do you think this is all because of ideology? What are you saying?

CARAWAY: All I have to go on is based off the governor's statement. When the governor uses this kind of line of thinking of you have the freedom to shelter-in-place if you choose and it's every single individual's responsibility, it is as if we are not a state, as if we're not a collective community.

The only reason I can think that she would use language like that when people are just asking not to shut off their waters so they can wash their hands, the only reason she will use language like that is if she's operating solely off of ideology and not pragmatism.

LEMON: Listen, I mean, it's Sioux Falls. I mean, it's not a huge place like New York City or Detroit or L.A. I mean, this means that -- doesn't it show it can happen anywhere even in a small place, even in a rural place?

CARAWAY: That's exactly right. This plant -- there are plants just like ours in the field plant in cities all across the country. This -- the plant, the Smithfield, it is the number one hot spot right now, but any plant, any factory across this country could be the number one hot spot next week if management doesn't take the calls and concerns of their workers seriously and act proactively rather than waiting to react to an issue.

LEMON: What do you think this does to the food supply? Do you think that people will be able to get all of the meat and such that they need?

CARAWAY: Yeah. I disagree with the CEO's comments. You know, it seems to be a little bit of a fearmongering. I don't think that you will start seeing empty of shelves of meat or anything like that. You might see some signs similar to the toilet paper. You might see some signs that limit someone to, you know, one shopper to two pounds of meat or something like that if more and more plants shut down.

But just this plant shutting down and just a few more plants shutting down, I don't think that you'll start seeing empty shelves any time soon.

LEMON: Before I let you go, what do you want to see done?

CARAWAY: We need -- the state needs to -- the governor needs to issue a statewide stay-at-home order. She needs to put a halt on eviction so that we can stay home. She needs to put a halt on utility shut off so we can keep our hands clean.

LEMON: Kooper Caraway, thank you. Good luck to you. You and everyone there, please be safe.

CARAWAY: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Thank you. And this is just in, new into CNN. CNN has learned that Michael Cohen, the president's former personal attorney, will be released early from prison due to the coronavirus pandemic. That is according to people familiar with the matter and his lawyer.

[23:34:56]

LEMON: Cohen is serving a three-year sentence at the federal prison camp in Otisville, New York where 14 inmates and seven staff members have tested positive for the virus. Cohen was scheduled for release in November of 2021. But will be allowed to serve the remainder of his sentence from home, home confinement. He will have to undergo 14-day quarantine at the prison camp before he is released.

The small business loans program meant to provide relief during the coronavirus crisis is already out of money, and watchdogs looking into where the money went are asking why some big change were able to snag loans.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Over the past four weeks, 22 million Americans have filed for their first week of unemployment benefits due to the pandemic's devastating impact on the economy. The news, well, it just gets worse. The $349 billion small business loan program is now depleted. CNN's Tom Foreman explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Doors closed, customers gone, small businesses everywhere like this wholesale florist in Las Vegas are in a title wave of unemployment.

SHARON HEARNE, MAYESH WHOLESALE FLORIST: Absolutely devastating. I have been heartbroken ever since we had to do this.

FOREMAN (voice-over): The Paycheck Protection Program was designed as a life raft, funneling $349 billion in loans into small businesses. In less than two weeks, it ran out and the website stopped taking applications. The speed of the rollout brought questions from watchdogs. Among them, why did the rules allow huge companies, including Ruth's Chris Steak House and Potbelly sandwiches to snag loans, according to Politico, while many much smaller businesses had trouble navigating the paperwork?

Kelly Conklin says he furloughed 13 people in his New Jersey woodworking company before speaking to us a few days ago.

KELLY CONKLIN, WOODWORKING COMPANY OWNER: It's now going on a week and crickets, nothing. I have no idea whether the application is correct. I have no idea whether we're going to be approved for this.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Without question, the money did help some companies, including Tim Miller's auto repair shop in Oklahoma.

TIM MILLER, AUTO REPAIR SHOP OWNER: I really feel blessed.

FOREMAN (voice-over): No small thing as a time when so many fear calamity. A survey by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce indicates 43 percent of small businesses believe they will close for good in less than six months if they don't get assistance.

SUZANNE CLARK, PRESIDENT, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: Every hour, every day counts for the small businesses in trying to pay their employees and stay afloat.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Lisa Spooner and Kevin Clarke were in that boat. Their Georgia restaurant is in serious trouble.

LISA SPOONER, OWNER, HOME GROWN RESTAURANT: It just feels really scary because it's so unknown, you know.

FOREMAN (voice-over): But after a long wait, a loan from the government program came through.

KEVIN CLARKE, OWNER, HOME GROWN RESTAURANT: Money is our only saving grace. We cannot make it on our hopes and dreams anymore.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN: To be clear, this program is helping a lot of businesses, but the problems with it are right at the center of the debate over how it should be refunded and how it should move forward from here. And while that argument is going on, a lot of other businesses can only sit and wait. Don?

LEMON: All right. Tom Foreman, thank you very much. CNN's business editor-at-large is Mr. Richard Quest, and he joins me now live. Richard, thank you so much. Good evening to you. Three hundred and forty-nine billion dollars in small business loans is officially gone. What does this mean for the people who haven't received a penny and need and they it right now?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR-AT-LARGE: They're out of luck to put is crudely and bluntly. Look, until Congress appropriates more money, there's only the emergency declaration of the emergency fund and that's also depleted. But really the main on the (ph) PPP where it was ground switch could become loans, until Congress puts more money into that piggy bank, then other people are out of luck.

The real question has to be how it was structured, Don. First come, first serve. Finite amounts of money. Professional companies and large companies who had more expertise and banking experience were able to get to the front of the line. Put all that together and, you know, you've got to ask yourself whether it was properly managed, whether it was simply too big to be managed, and when more money is going to be put in that pot. By the way, many of those big companies who got the money, Don, are now lobbying to change the terms of the program so that more becomes grant and less becomes loan.

LEMON: Interesting. OK, let's talk about stocks now for a moment. Dow future surged tonight after reports said that Gilead Sciences drug was showing effectiveness in treating coronavirus patients. This is the kind of news everyone is waiting for, Richard.

QUEST: Very simply. We know that for businesses to open, for the economy to fully open, there has to be testing and there has to be a surveillance and some form of tracing. But if you got a vaccine, but if you can manage to scale up, then all bets are off and you're off to the races again, because then, everybody can go back to work.

[23:44:59]

QUEST: That is why this hopeful gesture, this move, is so significant, but there will be plenty of this before the real one comes out. Gilead is very experienced. It's a long way to go. They still say it could be 18 months, a year to 18 months before full scale vaccination.

LEMON: So you said there are going to be plenty like this. So today's employment report was jarring. Twenty-two million people have lost their jobs over the last month. That's about 13.5 percent of the U.S. labor force. How much worse can this get, Richard?

QUEST: Well, the economists believe it could go rough 13 and a half but it could go to 18 or 19, at the upper end 20 percent. And what's more -- this is a dreadful number. But many of these people will be reemployed once the economy starts opening again. This is a way of businesses shifting their payroll onto the unemployment role.

What's perhaps most disconcerting, worrying, Don, is the other numbers that we got, retail sales, business inventories, manufacturing production, because they tell us what the economy will be like much later in the year, possibly into next year.

You see, what I fear is that there will be a second wave of unemployment as other companies bearing the brunt of these later layoffs have to lay off staff.

LEMON: Richard Quest, thank you, sir. The Denver Broncos announcing tonight that star linebacker Von Miller has tested positive for coronavirus. Miller was the MVP of Super Bowl 50 and a unanimous pick for the NFL's All-Decade team for 2010.

In a statement, the Broncos say that Von chose to share his diagnosis publicly to emphasize that anyone can be afflicted with coronavirus. Miller is the second NFL player to publicly disclose a positive test for coronavirus. He is set to enter his 10th season with the NFL, all with Denver, and we wish him a very, very speedy recovery.

A New York E.R. doctor says that she is never going to be the same after working through this crisis. I'm going to speak with her about life on the frontlines, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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LEMON: Thousands of Americans are hospitalized tonight with coronavirus, fighting to stay alive. Our fellow Americans are dying and our fellow Americans are fighting to save them. Doctors, nurses, health care workers are risking their own lives. One of them is Dr. Helen Ouyang, an emergency room doctor here in New York City. She joins us now. Thank you so much for what you're doing and thank you for joining us, OK?

HELEN OUYANG, E.R. DOCTOR: Thank you, Don, for having me on the show.

LEMON: What has it been like for you?

OUYANG: It's been pretty intense and unexpected. I have been corresponding with colleagues in Italy about what they are going through, so I had plenty of warning. But it was still really surprising how quickly our hospitals were overtaken by COVID patients.

LEMON: You wrote something, a piece in latest New York Times Magazine. It is called "I'm an E.R. Doctor in New York. None of Us Will Ever Be the Same." It is a COVID diary. Here is what you write.

You said, "It seems impossible to avoid getting infected. You would have to be perfect. And in the mayhem of the E.R., it's nearly impossible to be even good. I make mental calculations to keep all protective equipment on for my eight-hour shifts. During my 12-hour shifts, I remove it only twice to eat or drink. Two Italian colleagues, a doctor and a nurse, have already warned me about physical toll of wearing this equipment on their aching faces. Their noses rubbed raw. The tracing of their masks etched into their skin."

One of your colleagues told you that the virus strips away at doctors feeling of invincibility. Talk to me about this.

OUYANG: I think working in the emergency room, we just go into it. Whatever comes through the door, we run into the room. That's always been the way we operated. Obviously, with different infectious diseases, trauma cases, there's always a chance you could get infected, get hurt. But I think this is the first time any of us have really felt vulnerable to getting sick and possibly getting very sick.

I just don't think we know that much about the disease. I've seen people get sick who are very young, very old, some who have other diseases, immune-compromised but many who don't. And in that sense, we no longer have an answer.

LEMON: I just want to read a little bit more of what you say. You write in your piece about how fast this virus hit your emergency room or emergency rooms, how in just two weeks the COVID diagnosis went from surprise to overwhelming pandemic. You reported on medical conditions around the world. Are you surprised at what you're seeing here?

OUYANG: I was completely surprised. I think it just started off with a trickle of cases.

[23:55:00]

OUYANG: Then I had a couple of days off, two or three days off. I went back and the entire emergency room was filled with COVID patients and they were all intubated or on oxygen. I was totally shocked to see that.

LEMON: So what do you say to people who say, oh, this is -- more people die from the flu and so on and so forth?

OUYANG: I just don't think that's true. I think, first of all, we don't know how many people died. I think New York City is trying to back count some of the cases now, but definitely we were not swabbing patients who came in and had cardiac arrest, who died very quickly upon arriving in the emergency room.

I know our paramedic colleagues were told not to bring in any patients where they cannot get a pulse back. Many patients have died at home. We have patients who come in very sick. And when I called the family members, they said they were doing everything to keep the patient out of the hospital.

LEMON: Yeah. Doctor, thank you so much. We appreciate you joining us. Be safe.

OUYANG: Thank you. You, too.

LEMON: Thank you. And thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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