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Don Lemon Tonight

Worse Is Yet To Come During Flu Season; COVID-19 Death Toll Expected To Increase By August; New Relief Package Passed; Americans Divided On COVID-Related Guidelines; Interview With Mayor Andy Berke (D), Chattanooga, TN About Reopening Chattanooga City; Interview With Mayor Sylvester Turner (D), Houston, TX Saying That Texas Needs More Robust And Widespread Testing; Georgia To Reopen Some Businesses As Early As Friday; More Than 824,000 U.S. Coronavirus Cases, More Than 45,000 Deaths. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired April 21, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: I don't know about you, D. Lemon, but that Johana (ph) got me right in the feels and almost triggered my allergies.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: What's wrong with you making a new mom cry? What's wrong with you, Chris Cuomo?

CUOMO: First of all, she is crying tears of joy. Can you imagine making it through what she has handled and that baby comes out, Zion, with no COVID, thank God. Even though it's just -- she's just over a pound. She's making progress. And then her mom can't even see her until the due date.

LEMON: Well, it just goes to show you that women are the stronger and smarter sex of the sexes. That's all I have to say. She is a very --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: That is a no-brainer.

LEMON: Yes. She is -- I'm getting my work together because I rushed up here. I was watching -- your interview kept me in my office longer than I should have been in there because I was listening and watching. Amazing. She's an amazing woman. And I heard you talking to her afterwards. She's going to have really great stories, as you said, to her to tell her daughter in the future, right?

CUOMO: And I'll tell you what, man, people are putting their arms around her. My friend Kaitlan reached out about this story. People are doing amazing things.

LEMON: They are.

CUOMO: All the time to help other people during this pandemic.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: My frustration is we need that from our leaders as well. That desperate times, desperate measures, doing what you can. We're seeing it in people. We're seeing it in our healthcare workers. We're not seeing it with the urgency that we need to from our leaders yet, and that's what worries me about what the CDC said tonight.

LEMON: Yes, about you mean coming in the fall? That a second round could be worse.

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: Yes, listen, we're seeing it in our healthcare workers. We're seeing it in the frontline workers. That's not only healthcare workers. That's to people who I've been mentioning.

CUOMO: Sure. Working in the stores.

LEMON: The people who work in the grocery stores. The people who are working, the police officers who are out on the streets. The security guards. The cleaning folks. The truck drivers around the country are delivering the goods. The FedEx, the UPS workers, the postal workers, the people who are flying and getting our goods here to and fro, the people who are working in the supermarkets, all those folks who are keeping this country going, they are the frontline workers and the heroes in all of this, right? So, there you go.

CUOMO: Absolutely hundo p? Did you just say to --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Hundo p.

CUOMO: -- did you say to and fro?

LEMON: To and fro, well, speaking of fros, you know the haircut, right. Everyone thinks this is my haircut.

CUOMO: Listen, I'm not one to talk. I got the same hair do as my mom right now.

LEMON: Yes, you can slick it down with gel. That does not work on my hair. I have to slick it down with some sort of device a book or something. So, but you know.

Hey, listen, we have nothing to complain about. You're healthy now. Your family is healthy. God willing they're going to continue stay healthy. We have jobs. We have an income coming in. We have food on the table. And we wish that for everyone around this country right now.

Good health, well-being and that they are able to pay the bills and take care of their family. I got a big show ahead so I will see you later on.

CUOMO: Amen. LEMON: I'll talk to you soon.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

We have some breaking news to tell you about now. More than 824,000 cases of coronavirus in this country. More than 45,000 Americans have died just three months since the first reported U.S. case.

Another tragic milestone in a public health crisis that hits one after another. More than 2,500 deaths reported just today. Those numbers, every one of them representing our neighbors, they represent our loved ones and our co-workers. Almost unthinkable.

It is clear that it's far too early to let down our guards right now and go back to the lives that we were leading just a few weeks ago. Far too early for states to be reopening while more and more Americans are dying.

But we're learning tonight that things could get a whole lot worse. Here's what -- this is what Chris was talking about. We were just talking about moments ago. The CDC director Robert Redfield. We talk about him from time to time on these programs. Telling the Washington Post that a second wave of coronavirus this winter could be worse because it would likely happen at the same time as the start of the flu season.

And saying, quote, "when I said this to others, they kind of put their head back. They don't understand what I mean." He also said the protests against stay-at-home orders, protests encouraged by the president are, quote, "not helpful."

[22:05:02]

That as the Senate approves a $484 billion coronavirus relief package. It next goes to the House. The package including a $310 billion part of it -- $310 billion for small businesses. Also, more money for testing and hospitals.

But in a sign of just how bad our economic situation is right now, a banking industry source is telling CNN that money, that that money is only projected to last a few days. Get this. Maybe as few as two days. As businesses race the clock to get money before the well runs dry.

And you remember how the president promoted hydroxychloroquine? Remember that? Over and over and over.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The FDA also gave emergency authorization for hydroxychloroquine. We're having some very good things happening with it. It's shown very encouraging, very, very encouraging early results.

There's some good signs. You've read the signs. I've read the signs. And I say it, what do you have to lose? I'll say it again. What do you have to lose? Take it. If things don't go as planned, it's not going to kill anybody.

It will be wonderful. It will be so beautiful. It will be a gift from heaven if it works.

If some other person put it forward, they'd say, let's go with it. You know, what do you have to lose?

Try it. If you'd like.

I've seen things that I sort of like, so what do I know? I'm not a doctor. I'm not a doctor, but I have common sense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What do you have to lose? Try it. OK. In all seriousness, a new study of patients at a V.A. medical center -- at V.A. medical centers finds the drug not only has no benefit, it even has a higher death rate. So, the president says this tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Did you have a question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think you wanted to follow up on the hydroxychloroquine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The hydroxychloroquine. I wonder if you're concerned, this V.A. study showed that actually more people died that used the drug that didn't, and I'm wondering if Governor Cuomo brought you back any results on --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: No, we didn't discuss it and I don't know of the report. Obviously there have been some very good reports and perhaps this one is not a good report, but we'll be looking at it. We'll have a comment on it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A panel of experts at the NIH is actually now recommending against the use of hydroxychloroquine in combination with Z-Pack which is something you've recommended.

TRUMP: OK. I'm always willing to take a look.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: NIH, that's the National Institute of Health. Says he doesn't know anything about that report, showing that patients who took the drug had higher death rates than those who didn't. The drug he promoted over and over and over. Now, the president just says that he's going to take a look. That's

not good enough. He's got a responsibility to take this seriously. He promoted a totally unproven drug again and again. Telling Americans desperate to do something anything to save their lives. What have you got to lose, he said.

Now he's doing the I barely know the guy routine with the drug that he said would be the game-changer and a gift from heaven.

And with the Republican governors of Georgia, South Carolina and Tennessee starting to reopen their states in the coming days and mayors pushing back, who -- who are the American people listening to on this?

Some new poll numbers for you. This is a very -- it will give you a very good idea. A new Washington Post poll finds that 65 percent of people wore a mask or face covering in the past week. Probably one of those people is you. Seventy percent never even left home. Maybe you're one of them, too.

So, 82 percent were sticking to guidelines. And it's hard to imagine you could get to that percentage without it being bipartisan. But listen to what the president said tonight about the protesters he has been egging on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The director of the CDC said that protests against stay-at-home orders are not helpful. You've encouraged some of these protests. What are you what are your thoughts on the CDC director saying that these protests are not helpful?

TRUMP: Well, people, look, it's not a question of helpful or not. People want to get back to work. And I've watched some of the protests, not in great detail. I've seen that. They're separated. They're -- a lot of space in between.

I mean, they're watching, believe it or not, social, they're doing social distancing, if you can believe it. And they are. They're protesting, but they're -- the groups I've seen have been very much spread out.

[22:10:05]

So, I think that's good. Look, people, they want to bet back get back to work. They got to make a living. They got to take care of their family. They don't want to do this. It's, you know, unfortunate, maybe one way or the other. Both are unfortunate. Both are unfortunate. But you have a lot of people out there that are anxious to get back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, he said they're separated, they're social distancing. If you can believe it, he said, well, you shouldn't believe it. He said in the groups I've seen. So, if he's watching then you're going to see something else, Mr.

President. And if maybe you can just send this to him so he can see it on social media. We've all seen those protests. They're not keeping six feet apart.

And here's something that you can't see unless you pull the camera back. In many cases those crowds aren't actually as big as the president would like them to be. There are a lot more people staying home and social distancing than protesting. So, there you go.

Yet the president is encouraging those protesters. Giving them the green light. Using them to put the pressure on states to reopen. While trying to have it both ways and blame the governors if there is trouble.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: But the governors, I want them to do it. If they -- if we see them doing something we don't like, we'll stop it very quickly, but they're doing a good job. They're being careful. Some of the governors, frankly, they're in a position where they can do it sooner. They can do it a little bit later. And that's OK.

But people, they don't want to -- they need money. They need help. We're going to lose -- and we can't break our country over this. We can't do it. We have to get going. With that being said, some are going to go soon and some are not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Of course, people need money. They need help. But here's the fact. The fact is the majority of Americans are more worried about the states reopening too fast. Sixty-six percent said that in a Pew poll they said that they're worried about the country opening too quickly. See that? Thirty-two percent worried it wouldn't happen fast enough.

Fifty-eight percent in an NBC/Wall Street Journal poll were concerned restrictions would be loosened too quickly. Thirty-two percent worried it would be -- it would take too long.

This is no time to be loosening restrictions in states that haven't even met the president's own guidelines. Yes, we need to restart our economy. Everyone knows that. But not when social distancing and stay- at-home orders are actually working. Actually, saving lives. And are the only weapons that we've got right now to fight this deadly virus.

But the president is pretty much abandoning the pretext that any of this is about public health. It is about politics. Appealing to his base. Pressuring states to reopen and leaving them to take the fall.

And if you want a window into just how worried the president is about all of this, his tweets tell you everything you need to know. Got up this morning. Itchy Twitter finger. Bragging about the ratings for his coronavirus briefings. Bragging about his approval rating with Republicans. Remember, his overall approval rating in the latest Gallup poll is

down to just 43 percent. Then the president is going on to claim that he is doing a great job in his handling of the pandemic. A great job? He's making it all about him. In the midst of a crisis that has killed more than 45,000 Americans.

Our chief medical correspondent is Dr. Sanjay Gupta and he joins me now. So good to see you, doctor. Thank you so much.

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Don.

LEMON: So, I want to talk to you about the CDC director warning that the coronavirus could be even worse next winter. That is a pretty frightening prospect. Why -- why -- why is the director saying it could be worse?

GUPTA: You know, he's been saying this along with some others in some way, shape or form for a while. I think the big thing to remember is that when this coronavirus hit in the United States, it was sort of at the tail end of flu season this year.

The concern is that in the fall both coronavirus and flu might hit at the same time. And, you know, flu is a big deal. Flu is always been a big deal, Don. So, if you get both of these respiratory illnesses happening at the same time, you run into some of the same -- many of the same issues that we've been talking about for the last several months.

Are there going to be enough hospital beds? Are there going to be enough ventilators? Is there going to be enough PPE? Can we test? The same things, you know, even though we're starting to have some plateauing and some decrease in some of the states with the numbers, the virus is still out there, Don.

[22:15:01]

It is still a contiguous virus. It is still something we need to be mindful of. And there is a concern that we're going to have these waves.

Let me show you something really quick, Don. This is going back 100 years, 1918. I'm not going to show this graph to alarm anybody, but I just want you to see three waves of the Spanish flu. Started in March of 1918, that was the first peak at the far-left. That was a small peak. It was the second peak, Don, the one that caused the most devastation, really.

And what's what we're trying to avoid but we need to be prepared to avoid that. That's the concern if we don't act. But you know, this physical distancing, this stay at home, sometimes people don't realize how well it's working because we're in the midst of it. And maybe this isn't so bad. We dodged a bullet. Whatever you might think.

It's because we're doing something totally unprecedented in the world right now. It will make a difference. It's making a difference. And we may need to do it again in the fall, Don. LEMON: So, we just got the guidelines in from Georgia from the Georgia

board of cosmetology and barbers. I'm going to read that while I ask you this other question.

You know, they've got this big story right now. Georgia has this aggressive plan to reopen starting this week. The governor is calling it a, you know, a measured approach.

Just from a medical perspective, though, it seems like it would be awfully hard to social distance in a nail or hair salon or even a gym. These are the -- this is -- we got the plans up right now, but quickly go on and talk to me about how difficult is that, especially when someone has to touch you to do your hair and nails, right? And then --

GUPTA: I think at some point, you know, it's just common sense, right?

LEMON: Yes.

GUPTA: I mean, we have to keep talking about this. It's a little bit ridiculous. How do you physically distance somebody when they're cutting your hair or doing your nails? I mean, my daughters who are, you know, 13 and 14 and 11, I mean, right away they're asking me, how does that work, daddy?

LEMON: Yes.

GUPTA: I mean, everybody understands it can't.

LEMON: Yes. Especially if you're doing someone's hair.

(CROSSTALK)

GUPTA: I mean, a little silly that you and I --

LEMON: I said if you're doing somebody's hair, you have to be Edward Scissorhands. But that's not even six feet. I have the guidelines up. I hate to cut you off. But I want you to talk about. Let's put them back up here and let.

Employees are required to wear a mask, OK? Consider providing masks to clients. Consider using face shields, gloves, smocks, et cetera. Items should be disinfected, disposed between clients. Hand washing between clients. Sorry, doctor, go on, what do you think of that?

GUPTA: I think that you should consider not opening yet. That should be at the top of the list. I want to open, too. I mean, I want all the same things that I think everybody else wants. I want that for me, I want it for my family, I want it for you, Don, but we're not there yet.

I worry about this. And you know, I try to be a charitable person. But I find it hard with these particular decisions. We closed late. We're opening early. People may get infected that don't need to. People may go to the hospital that don't need to. People may even end up even dying that don't need to. It is true, Don, that when we do start to reopen things, it's going to

be a risk, it's going to be a calculated risk, but there are some very clear guidelines here.

You know, it was interesting, I was watching this press briefing today, Ambassador Birx who is a very polite person. Right? She very said when asked about Georgia she said, look, we put out guidelines, we gave very clear data. There are still outbreaks happening. I don't quite understand how you can be physically distance when you're doing these things like hair and nails and stuff. Maybe they have some creative solutions to this.

The president was going to asked about it. And he said he was going to talk to Governor Kemp. Maybe that conversation already happened. He said maybe they're going to test everybody before they go into the hair salon or the nail salon. They're not. We don't have enough testing. We don't have enough infrastructure. We hope to get to that point, but we're not there yet.

So, this is almost all risk and no reward. Not to mention, Don, who is going to go to these places right now? Is that door handle contaminated? Did this person get tested? Has this place been disinfected? What about the ventilation.

You could -- you could get the virus. You can get sick. Or maybe you don't get sick and you give it to somebody else. And wouldn't you feel awful? And we've been saying this for four months. We're all in this together. We really are. Never before have we been so dependent on each other.

So, if you say, hey, you know what, I'm willing to take the risk, well know that you're taking the risk on my behalf as well, and I don't like that.

LEMON: OK.

GUPTA: You're taking the risk on my kid's behalf as well, and I don't like that. So, that's what we need to be thinking.

LEMON: We have to move on, but I just want to -- listen, I just have to tell people this. Because, again, this just came out. And we're going to move on here, but the Georgia board of cosmetology has issued guidelines to businesses before they reopen on Friday, according to the press release from the office of -- so they have lifted these restrictions, the board is recommending owners to follow OSHA's guidelines.

Now think about it. Think about going into a barber shop, right? You're going to the barber shop, you run in on a Saturday or whenever you run in, right? So, they're saying, they're asking the people there to follow the guidelines. Temperature checks with free infrared thermometers in place for clients when they enter. Asking clients for screening questions. Have you had a cough? Have you had a fever? Have you been around anyone with symptoms of COVID?

[22:04:59] OK. You're going to ask. Are people going to tell you? Limiting the number of those who are allowed in shops and only screening clients by appointment only. Maintain social distancing of six feet at all times between people.

Consider adding additional space between booths and/or alternating work schedules. Use PPE, requiring all staff to wear a mask and consider supplying masks to clients. Sick employees should stay at home.

OK. All well and good. Who is going to enforce that? I'm just saying, that's a lot to ask someone in a barber shop when you're scrambling to make ends meet. Quickly because I have to move on, doctor. Sorry.

GUPTA: And you don't know if you have it --

LEMON: Exactly.

GUPTA: -- because we haven't been testing.

LEMON: Yes.

GUPTA: And you can be asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic and have it. So, you couldn't even ask new questions.

LEMON: Boy. The new normal. Thank you, doctor. I appreciate your time.

GUPTA: Thank you, don.

LEMON: Researchers at the University of Washington putting out a new model today. Their model is the one with the -- the White House uses. And now it shows an increase in projected deaths from coronavirus this summer.

I'm going to ask a top researcher what's behind the increase.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, here's the breaking news. New models out tonight indicating an uptick in the number of deaths that we could see for the coronavirus. They also update projections on when the states may be able to consider easing social distancing policies.

[22:25:03]

Let's discuss now with Dr. Chris Murray, the director of the Institute for Health Metrics and

Evaluation at the University of Washington. His coronavirus models are used by the White House.

Doctor, thank you so much. So, let me give you the latest model for the U.S. You updated it today. It estimates nearly 66,000 total deaths by August 4th. That is up from about 60,000 from your last model, a nearly 10 percent increase. Why are you revising this upward?

CHRISTOPHER MURRAY, DIRECTOR, INSTITUTE FOR HEALTH METRICS AND EVALUATION: Well, a number of states have been updating their own death numbers. They've started to capture all those deaths that were being missed in elder care facilities, and so we've seen real increases in a number of states and, of course, it's natural that we -- our model, which is driven by the data, is going to reflect that increased number of deaths that the U.S. has experienced.

LEMON: OK. So, is that because they -- I don't know if you would know this. Is that because they've increased it because they're opening back up and they're thinking that the numbers are going to go up or is this because people -- what's the factor there?

MURRAY: The factor is that there were people dying in elder care facilities.

LEMON: Got it.

MURRAY: That weren't getting tested.

LEMON: OK.

MURRAY: And now people have recognized this. They're going back. States, the guidance from CDC to states is now to report these presumptive COVID deaths.

LEMON: OK.

MURRAY: Somebody who had the symptoms. And so, the death statistics of the states are being revised upwards, and, of course, we're trying to capture the trajectory of the epidemic from both cases and deaths. And that new information tells us that some of the epidemic that was happening in nursing homes, elder care facilities was sort of being missed. It was masked. And so that really does seem to --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: OK. So, more people are dying than we previously realized? That's the obvious. OK.

MURRAY: Basically.

LEMON: So, what does that say about testing? Do we need to test more people then?

MURRAY: Well, our recommendations about when to consider relaxing social distancing is that given testing capacity as it stands now, given the, you know, lack of infrastructure to do contact tracing in many states, that the safest thing to do is to wait until the number of cases that are in the community gets down to a pretty low level.

So, if the epidemic is bigger now than we thought, then that's going to push out the date in the future when social distancing can bring the number of infections down to a really manageable level.

LEMON: OK. So, we know that Georgia Tennessee, South Carolina plan to release restrictions in the coming days. So, the current model for Georgia says that relaxing measures may be possible after June 19th, but it's reopening many businesses on Friday. Do you -- from doing these models, what do you expect to happen? Do you have an expectation?

MURRAY: Well, we are -- we weren't expecting states to open so early, to be honest. We were expecting them to stay the course. Because that was going to bring down the risk of resurgence.

So, we are working really as quickly as humanly possible to try to factor into our forecasts just what that's going to mean, and we hope to get to that point, but in time for when they actually lift these restrictions likely means if you --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: So how do you factor that in?

MURRAY: Well, what we have to --

LEMON: Well, go on. You said that likely means what? Sorry.

MURRAY: Well, likely means there is a very substantial risk of a resurgence if, you know, the number of infections still in Georgia is really in the community is really quite large. And the idea that we, you know, if people start to go back to normal social interaction or even progressively go back, the risk of transmission will go up.

The risk that, you know, the number of people being infected by each person who is infectious will be more than one, and then you go back to the sort of exponential rise that was happening before we put in social distancing. So, the risk is very great for resurgence from these early openings.

LEMON: Dr. Murray, it's a pleasure. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

MURRAY: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you.

MURRAY: Cheers.

LEMON: Some states are making plans to ease restrictions as early as this week. I'm going to ask mayors in Tennessee and Texas if they are ready or concerned. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:30:00]

LEMON: The stay-at-home order in Tennessee expires on April 30th. Governor Bill Lee says most businesses across the state can reopen on May 1st, which is a week from Friday. But major metropolitan areas such as Chattanooga can plan their own reopening strategies. I want to bring in Mayor Andy Berke of Chattanooga. Mayor, good to see you. Thank you for coming on.

MAYOR ANDY BERKE (D), CHATTANOOGA, TN: Good evening.

LEMON: Are you ready to reopen your city? And if not, what are your concerns?

BERKE: Well, we really want to be driven by data, not dates. And this virus doesn't know ideology and opinion. We really need to look at the facts. And so for us, what we're doing is listening to experts. I'm not a public health expert, but I got to listen to people who are. Filtering that through the business opinions from people across our state and then use that information to figure out when we open, not just arbitrary dates.

LEMON: So, listen, you know, Chattanooga is in Hamilton County. The Hamilton County Mayor says that he is going to follow the governor's recommendation to have a phased reopening starting in May. What do you think?

BERKE: This is a really difficult and confusing situation for people in our community. It was terrific of the governor to let local people like Chattanooga figure out what is best for our own community, but it does cause a lot of concern for our residents when the mayor of a city is saying one thing and then right outside it is another rule.

[22:35:18]

This is just confusion for people. Nevertheless, we really still have to make the best decision for the health of our people.

LEMON: Yes, and everything is not aligned, so it is confusing. The, you know, you're also right up against Georgia. Are you worried about the aggressive reopening plans and what it means for your city?

BERKE: It is quite confusing and difficult to make decisions when you realize that you're one part of a huge ecosystem. Chattanooga is the head of the metro. We're the place where everybody comes. The decisions that are made in Georgia, across the county and, of course, across our state affect Chattanooga because we're the center of the region.

LEMON: I just want to -- one more question before we go to break. Your state reported 156 new cases over the last day. So do you -- can you understand why the governor is pressing ahead with lifting these and even when it hasn't met the White House's guidelines to reopen?

BERKE: You know, when I think -- that was the question that I think I had. I've been talking about this over the course of the last day. We're just now expanding tests. We really need to look and see what that does in communities like ours over the next few days. Then let the data decide what happens so that we can figure out what's safe for people and get our economy restarted.

LEMON: All right. Mayor Berke, thank you for your time. Good luck. OK. Please come back and let us know what's going on. Thanks so much. Be safe.

So, Texans are under orders to stay at home until April 30th. Governor Greg Abbot says that he wants the state to reopen in stages and he'll announce guidelines on Monday, but Houston's mayor is concerned, saying that Texas needs more robust and widespread testing. Mayor Sylvester Turner joins me now. Mayor Turner. Good to see you. Wish it was under better circumstances. I got to be honest with you.

MAYOR SYLVESTER TURNER (D), HOUSTON, TX: Good to see you, Don.

LEMON: I should say, good to see you again.

TURNER: Thanks, man.

LEMON: So, mayor, today is the first time that your city has reported back-to-back days of no deaths. That is welcomed news, I'm sure.

TURNER: Yes.

LEMON: You know, but Texas as a whole has had 738 more cases, 22 more deaths, so it is, you know, is it the right time for the governor, Governor Abbot to start easing restrictions?

TURNER: What he said, Don, last week is that he would do it in phases. And he would be governed by the medical opinions coming from our doctors, our hospitals. Be governed by the science. And I think that's good. So what we also know is that Texas has not done nearly as much testing as what is needed. And in order to determine where the virus is and how pervasive it is in our communities, it's all about testing.

And at this point in the state of Texas, we've tested about 215,000 people. Out of 27 million. We certainly need much more widespread ubiquitous testing. That's the precursor. And until we get more testing done, it's kind of difficult to say it's time to open up.

LEMON: So you don't have adequate testing and you want that -- you want it done? That's your issue.

TURNER: Don, we have two FEMA testing sites. Just about a week and a half ago, they gave us permission to double the amount of testing that we can do. We can test 1,000 people per day. And really those sites are supposed to go until 7:00 p.m. Every single day those sites have reached their maximum capacity at about 4:00 p.m. So we need more testing.

People want to be tested. And then at the same time I don't want to overlook people in our vulnerable, at-risk communities. There may be transportation -- not able to get to the public testing site. So we need more mobile testing. Maybe set up more testing sites close to --

LEMON: So, what are you doing to protect -- because you have sizeable African-American, Latino communities there and you know they're being hit -- those communities are being hit really hard. What are you doing to protect those communities?

TURNER: Well, I've established now a task force being led by four of our department directors. In fact, we're going to be making a major announcement on that this coming Thursday. We want to make sure that we're providing education to them and making sure we provide them with the educations and the resources that they need.

You can tell people to put on face coverings, but, Don, as you well know, when you're dealing with people in communities that where people have already been on the margins, they've already -- they don't have the necessary medical support that they need, they're fighting so many other things in those communities. You have to make things readily available for them and you have to provide them with the education that they need. So we're working on that to drive those resources into those communities.

LEMON: Mayor Turner, thank you. We appreciate your time. Best of luck please be safe, OK.

TURNER: Thanks, Don. Thanks, man. Take care.

[22:40:00]

LEMON: Thank you. You, too.

Experts agree more testing is needed for states like these to reopen. So we are saying this every night, and every night it is the truth. I'm going to ask the former HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius about that and what else she thinks needs to happen.

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LEMON: Several states making the move toward reopening despite falling short of the White House guidelines. Many businesses in Georgia could be back up as soon as Friday. Joining me now is Kathleen Sebelius, the former Health and Human Services secretary under President Barack Obama. She led the administration's response to the H1N1 virus. It's good to see you again. Everything good with you? Everybody safe and healthy?

KATHLEEN SEBELIUS, FORMER HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: So far so good. Thanks, Don.

[22:45:00]

LEMON: Thank you, secretary. That's good. So, listen, Georgia, Tennessee, South Carolina haven't had a declining number of new cases for 14 days. Which is one of the White House's guidelines for reopening. What was the point of putting out these guidelines if they weren't going to follow them?

SEBELIUS: Well, it's a great question, Don. I think that any governor in in this country, any mayor has to feel in a whip saw at this point. Just to go back a step. Three weeks ago on the 29th of March, the president said social distancing guidelines should be in place until the 30th of April. In spite of his inclination to open up churches by Easter and have crowds, he listened to public health officials.

Then on -- two and a half weeks later on the 17th of April, there were guidelines issued. Three stages of how to reopen a plan. It seemed to be a plan. And as you say, part of the plan was 14 days of the disease actually going down. Trajectory going down. Hospitals being ready for any kind of surge capacity. And teams in place to do the tracking that's required for new virus outbreaks.

I would say no state in the country has those three components ready to go. And yet the day after the guidelines were issued, the president immediately tweeted that in three Democratic states, in Minnesota, in Michigan and in Virginia the citizens should liberate the states. None of the states met the guidelines that had been issued only 24 hours earlier. All of them were in very difficult times and never did the White House in issuing the guidelines ever say what the federal government role is.

LEMON: Yes.

SEBELIUS: Are they going to help pay for this team, army of trained medical workers who need to do the contact tracing? Are they going to be --

LEMON: There was never --

SEBELIUS: --responsible for protective equipment.

LEMON: There was never a response. There was never one singular national response to everyone. And one wonders if that was just bluster because people called his bluff on saying that he was the authority on all of this and he just wanted to put that out there.

But listen, I have to ask you about the governors begging for more tests, testing supplies. We know testing is the key metric for reopening. And some experts say they need to be performing millions of tests per week, secretary, far more than what we are doing now. How do we ramp this up?

SEBELIUS: Well, the only way to ramp it up is to get the supplies needed and to get the test kits, and states cannot, as they've demonstrated, cannot do it on their own. No amount of blaming states -- I thought Larry Hogan, the governor of Maryland, was very articulate on Sunday saying the notion that any governor is not trying his hardest, he or she can, to get this testing done is just ludicrous. It's just wrong.

And no state -- I'm sitting in Kansas, right in the middle of the country. We have a big outbreak that just occurred in meat processing plants in the southwest part of the state. We are the least tested state in the United States per capita. We have been begging for supplies from FEMA. A few test kits just came and they're all going to go to that part of the state to try and determine how wide this outbreak might be, but no state in the country has the reagents, has the swabs --

LEMON: Yes.

SEBELIUS: -- has the test kits they need. And they can't do it on their own. The federal government has to step up and make testing available. Use the Defense Production Act to make the tests available.

LEMON: Well, I think -- I think most experts will agree with you. Thank you. I appreciate it, Kathleen Sebelius. Thank you so much. SEBELIUS: You bet.

LEMON: The New York Times is reporting that Trump Hotel in Washington is asking their landlord for relief from their lease payments and their landlord happens to be the Trump administration. The story is next.

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[22:50:00]

LEMON: "New York Times" reporting that the Trump organization landmark hotel in the nation capitol is looking for break on rent. The president's family business reportedly asking about changing the lease payments which amount to nearly $268,000 a month. That's according to the federal government. And the landlord that will decide the outcome of the request, none other than the Trump administration.

Joining me now is David Enrich, the business investigations editor for the Times. And the author of Dark Towers. David, good to see you. Thank you for coming on.

DAVID ENRICH, BUSINESS INVESTIGATIONS EDITOR, NEW YORK TIMES: Thanks for having me.

LEMON: So, walk us through your reporting the Trump organization essentially looking for help on its rent from the Trump administration.

ENRICH: Right. Well, as part of the lease agreement that the Trump organization signed several years ago to get this federal building, so they could transform into a hotel. They agreed to pay monthly payments of about $268,000. And now, because of the coronavirus, the Trump organization with many other businesses has really fallen on tough times. There are hotels are being closed. Their golf courses around the country are being closed. And so, the Trump organization is doing everything it can to get a break where ever it can. And one of the places it's turning is the federal government. That's its landlord.

[22:55:00]

So, it is requested that whatever breaks the general services administration, which is the arm of the government that handles this is given to anyone. The Trump organization wants a piece of that.

LEMON: So, David, Eric Trump say in a statement to the Times and I quote here, it says, just treat us the same. Whatever that may be is fine. But isn't that exactly the same as any other company?

ENRICH: Well, not every other company is run by the president of the United States. And so, I think one of the really serious concerns that a lot of critics have been voicing since even before Trump was elected president was that, if he is in charge of the federal government having him controlling his business which does business with the federal government and with state and local government as well represents a massive potential conflict of interest. (CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Isn't this the whole point of divesting in the emoluments clause and so on? Didn't everyone warn about this and - sorry, go on.

ENRICH: This is basically a textbook case of the conflict of interest that a lot of people have been warning about since day one. And this is -- it's going to be very hard for a senior federal official in the Trump administration to say no to the Trump organization as you would imagine. And so it's a very unusual and potentially problematic situation right there.

LEMON: David, thank you. I appreciate you coming on and thanks for your great reporting. Thanks so much. We'll be right back.

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