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Don Lemon Tonight

Two Viruses In One Season; Georgia Justifies Reason To Reopen Businesses; White House Used Inaccurate Machine; Officials Urge Iowa Governor To Shut Down Tyson Foods Plant After COVID-19 Outbreak; Coronavirus Is Disproportionately Hitting Communities Of Color; Coronavirus Is Raising New Concerns Over Food Insecurity; What America Can Learn About Reopening From Countries That Have Been Battling Coronavirus Longer. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired April 21, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

It's 11 p.m. on the East Coast, and we've got the latest information on the coronavirus pandemic. There are now more than 824,000 coronavirus cases in the United States, 45,000 deaths worldwide, more than 2.5 million cases and more than 177,000 deaths.

An ominous warning tonight from the director of the CDC saying that a possible second outbreak of the coronavirus this coming winter in conjunction with the annual flu season could produce a worse health crisis than what the country is experiencing right now.

And also, tonight, a study of coronavirus patients taking hydroxychloroquine, an antimalaria drug pushed as a treatment by the president finds no benefit to patients and a higher death rate compared to those who didn't take the drug.

Let's bring in now CNN White House Correspondent, John Harwood, and our resident fact checker Daniel Dale. Hello to both of you.

John, you first. More than 823,000 people in the United States have been infected with this virus. More than 44,000 people have died. Yet we're not seeing a focus on the public health response to this pandemic from the White House aside from what serves Trump's political interest. Has the president lost interest?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I don't think he's lost interest. But I think there is growing pressure certainly from Republicans, business people, to try to get things going again. And the president is having difficulty standing up to that pressure.

Remember the notable line that Governor Andrew Cuomo had said in New York. If you're mad about us being shut down, don't blame anybody else but me. I'm taking the heat. I'm making this decision because it's in the best interest of all New Yorkers. President Trump has not been willing to take that heat. Neither is

Brian Kemp, the governor of Georgia who is loosening without having met those gating guidelines for phase one that the president laid out the other day.

Now granted, it is easier for Andrew Cuomo to say that in New York while New York was being ravaged. Georgia has been ravaged less. And certainly, if you are somebody like Brian Kemp you look at big cities where mostly Democrats are. That's where the problem has been most acute. Less so in the rural parts of the state. That is where the Republican base is.

And so, he is exceeding to that pressure to try to get things going and the president is not been willing to say hey, no, stop it. In fact, we saw from the White House podium today neither was Deborah Birx when she got a question about opening up.

She said, well, we've urge everybody to follow the guidelines. Would not condemn what Governor Kemp was doing. The president said he would talk to Governor Kemp today. Haven't really heard what came out of that meeting. And it will be notable if he does produce some change in the governor but I'm not expecting it.

LEMON: Yes. What happened to the White House guidelines for reopening? I mean, you talk about it, you know. And we have been talking about it.

Georgia clearly doesn't meet the criteria to reopen. He didn't say anything and as you said, and I have tremendous respect for Dr. Birx. She worked for PEPFAR. I remember that. I went to Africa to do a documentary on PEPFAR which was George W. Bush, which is, you know, did great things for AIDS in Africa and so on.

She worked for that organization. She has done great work. But I thought that she really hedged on the whole idea about the guidelines and about social distancing and so on and so forth.

HARWOOD Yes.

LEMON: She said people are very creative. I know she's in a tough spot when it comes to the president because she has to work with him. But there is really no way to social distance when you have to do someone's nails, when you have to put a tattoo on, when you have to do someone's hair. I mean, you have to touch the person in order to do it, John. I mean, those guidelines mean anything?

HARWOOD: By definition, you can't do it to meet the social distancing guideline. And in fact, Deborah Birx when she addressed the question said, well, I don't see how you can do it but some people are creative.

There's no way to tattoo somebody without touching them. And so, this is a case again where the president did lay out guidelines but he said they weren't mandatory. Said that governors have the right to make the decisions for their state. That's a fact under our federal system.

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And governors are going to make different choices and governors in more conservative states are going to make different choices from those in more urban and liberal states. That's just a reality. Question is how does that affect the overall national ability to get past this pandemic.

LEMON: Daniel, the president suggested people could be tested at Georgia nail salons. Any indication that that is going to happen?

DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: There is none, Don. Governor Kemp has said nothing of the sort. And he spoke at length about testing when he announced his partial reopening plan. It will be difficult obviously to even do because there's still very limited access to those rapid tests. No. No plans and no indication this is forthcoming.

LEMON: Yes. And who's -- I mean, is there like going to be a nail police or the beauty parlor police or the barber shop police, I mean, or the gym police? It's just, I mean, come on.

DALE: I'll add the president phrased this as a question not a false claim as usual. So, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt there.

LEMON: OK. Another fact-check for you. I want you to take a listen to what the president said about the small groups of people protesting the stay-at-home orders. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: People want to get back to work. And I have watched some of the protests. Not in great detail but I've seen them. They're separated. They're a lot of space in between. I mean, they're watching, believe it or not, social -- they're doing social distancing if you can believe it. And they are. And they are protesting but they're -- the groups I have seen have been very much spread out. So, I think that's good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: The truth, Daniel.

DALE: Don, I also saw a couple of images where the crowds at this protest were very sparse and people were far apart. But I also saw a bunch of images which I believe your team can show in Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Kentucky where people were doing the opposite of distancing. They were bunched together. So, it's just not true.

And I think it's important to add, Don, that when the president talks about people's desire to get back to work to feed their families to see these restrictions gone. Of course, everyone wants to get back to normal.

But the polls continue to show strong majority support for maintaining restrictions right now. For example, we had a Pew poll last week that showed 66 percent are more worried about lifting restrictions too soon than keeping them in too long. So, when we see these protesters when you hear the president's

rhetoric, I think it's important to remember that this is a minority position that things should just reopen a wholesale at this point.

LEMON: I think there's no person that doesn't want to get back to work and make money and provide for their families. They just want to do it the right way.

So, Daniel today the Senate passed a bill that will provide another $310 billion for small business loan program that ran out of cash in less than two weeks. The president says that Harvard will return millions that he claims that they received from a previous package. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Harvard is going to pay back the money. They shouldn't be taking it. So, Harvard is going to. You have a number of -- I'm not going to mention any other names but when I saw Harvard, they have one of the largest endowments in the country, maybe the world, I guess. And they're going to pay back that money.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Just the facts, Daniel.

DALE: So, Harvard did get money, about $9 million. And Harvard does of course have a huge endowment. What the president got wrong was in suggesting that Harvard got this $9 million from the package of money that was supposed to go to small businesses. It didn't.

It issued a statement tonight saying it didn't even apply for that money. Where its money came from was a separate package of money within the relief bill that was specifically for colleges. Harvard is a college. Now there's a fair question should Harvard have taken it at all. But they say that every cent of that money, 100 percent, double the 50 percent that was required has gone to emergency student needs. So those are the facts.

LEMON: All right. Thank you both. I appreciate it. I want to get the truth about testing now from CNN's Drew Griffin. Drew, hello to you. You are learning that the rapid coronavirus test that the president claim was a whole new ball game can give an accurate result. What can you tell us?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. This is that little machine point of care machine Daniel just made reference to, that tells you instantly whether or not or almost instantly whether or not you have COVID or not.

Cleveland clinic ran some tests on it using this process where you actually take a swab and put it in a vile and then test it. And found it had 15 percent inaccuracy rate. Fifteen percent failure of detecting the COVID virus. That is unacceptable.

Abbott immediately notified the FDA and all its customers, Don, which includes the White House which uses in machine. And told them they can no longer or should no longer use this machine under certain conditions. But to use it only specifically at point of care where you take a specimen from the nose right into the machine.

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So, it just highlights the problems you have when you rush out some of these tests that are going out without all the due diligence and without all the rules and regulations being followed. You kind of have to learn as you go along where mistakes could be made.

So hopefully that machine which is now I'm sure in the 700,000 tests already done category. It has now got some new guidelines for how to use it.

LEMON: Drew Griffin, thank you very much. Now I want to bring in Dr. Jonathan Reiner. He is the co-director of the Cardiac Catherization Program at George Washington University Hospital. Dr. Reiner, good to see you as well.

I just spoke to Dr. Chris Murray there, the creator of the coronavirus model, models used by the White House. First, they have revised their model with total deaths up 10 percent to 66,000. And then, you know, here's -- this is what he said about the impact of states easing social distancing policies now. Watch this.

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CHRISTOPHER MURRAY, DIRECTOR, INSTITUTE FOR HEALTH METRICS AND EVALUATION: We weren't expecting states to open so early to be honest. We were expecting them to stay the course because that was going to bring down the risk of resurgence.

There's a very substantial risk of a resurgence. If, you know, the number of infections still in Georgia is really in the community is really quite large. And the idea that, you know, if people start to go back to normal social interaction or even progressively go back, the risk of transmission will go up.

The risk that, you know, the number of people being infected by each person who's infectious will be more than one. And then you go back to the sort of exponential rise that was happening before we put in social distancing. So, the risk is great for resurgence from these early openings.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So, is he essentially saying, doctor, that he expects those numbers to go up further meaning more deaths will result?

JONATHAN REINER, CARDIOLOGIST, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL: Yes. You know, yesterday in Georgia there were about 1,100 cases. This -- there are only about five states in the country had more cases than Georgia.

So, Georgia is at their peak. We know that social distancing works. So, what happens when you take a state which still has really a roaring infection rate and then start loosening some of the reigns.

Not only is the governor talking about opening some of these, you know, tattoo parlors and barbershops this week. But he's talking about, you know, beginning next week opening up theaters. So, it makes no sense. It flies in the face of common sense. When you know that social distancing works in a state where virus is very active to start loosening it. It really, it's really disgraceful.

LEMON: Doctor, the safety guidelines just came out from Georgia's Board of Cosmetology and Barbers ahead of the state reopening. And they include things like employees -- let's see, employees wearing masks at all time. Salons should make use of face shields, gloves, smocks. Disinfect or dispose of them between clients, handwashing. Employees should change clothes before leaving the salon.

I mean, this is a profession where someone puts their hands all over your head and your face and -- I mean, just, you know, how can any guideline stop the spread of a highly infectious virus during a haircut?

REINER: Well, you can't. And also remember that the, you know, the people the cosmetologists and the barbers, they're not healthcare workers. They're not really experienced in what we call a septic technique. So, you don't expect them to go into the back of the barber shop and scrub before they come to cut your hair.

So, you know, you can't hold an establishment like that to the kind of, you know, viral reduction standards that we hold hospitals to. So, what happens when you bring people into that barbershops. So, the barbershops can be relatively small. Are you're going to have only one person in the shop and have the other people wait outside?

How are you going to disinfect the chair and the scissors and the clippers? You know, it's nonsense. So, it's just symptomatic of small thinking. Right? Social distancing works. It hurts the social distance. I know. People have lost their jobs. The country is hurting. But it's saving lives and governors have to just accept that. Until the incidents of infection drops substantially in the state, you cannot do this.

LEMON: I'm glad you said that but then, you know, I won't even go there. I'm not going to go there. So, what kind of an impact could these few, the few states opening early have on the whole country's fight against this virus?

REINER: You know, we're getting mixed messages and the mixed messages are coming frankly from these daily pressers at the White House.

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You know, on the one hand you have the professionals like Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx talking about how we're flattening the curve with social distancing. And then you have the president come out and talk about how we have to get the country open. We have to open. We have to open.

So, it's this whole push me pull you kind of phenomenon happening at the White House and it gives people mixed signals. The president is basically saying he doesn't want this to go on much longer. And I get it. No one wanted to go on much longer. But we're doing it for a reason. We're doing it because if we don't do this, tens of thousands of people more are going to die.

LEMON: So, what I was going to say when you say it's just small thinking. And what people would say to that is that you're an elite or an elitist by saying that. Right?

REINER: Yes.

LEMON: But that's the reason that you're a doctor. I'm a journalist, I don't know. So, I'm going to take your advice as a doctor or an epidemiologist or a virologist because you know more than me, and that doesn't mean you're an elite or an elitist. That's your profession. You know more. Even if you're a truck driver you know more about trucking than I do. That doesn't mean you're an elitist. You just know more. Go on.

REINER: Yes, you know, I'm trying to protect. I'm trying to protect people's parents and my colleagues and people I work with in the hospital. And the more infections we have the more people who present the hospitals for treatment, the more we stress our systems, and our hospitals and our care givers, the more, not just patients are going to die, but my colleagues are going to die.

We need to protect our healthcare workers. We need to protect our communities. We need to protect our neighbors. That's what this pain is. Keeping the economy closed is to protect our community.

LEMON: Thank you, Dr. Reiner. I appreciate it.

REINER: Sure.

LEMON: As bad as things are now the director of the CDC is warning it could be worse this winter. Are we prepared for what could happen?

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LEMON: The CDC Director Robert Redfield with a stark warning that a second wave of the coronavirus next winter could be even more difficult when combined with seasonal flu.

Let's discuss now with Dr. Howard Markel, a professor of history of medicine at the University of Michigan. Good to see you again, doctor. Thank you so much for joining us.

HOWARD MARKEL, HISTORY OF MEDICINE PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: Good to see you too, Don.

LEMON: The possibility of dealing with the seasonal flu in addition to another wave of coronavirus is pretty scary. And it's not like we are anywhere near out of the woods from the first wave. So, what's going on? MARKEL: Well, it is scary because then you get two bad respiratory

viruses for the price of one. You know, the virus is still circulating just as you said with your previous guest that if we end social distancing all we've been doing is been hiding from the virus. We haven't cured it or prevented it from attacking more people.

But once we start interacting with that virus, we will of course catch it. And so, it could come back again or never go away over the next several months and last into the fall or winter. But we really don't know yet.

LEMON: OK. Let's put up a comparison. And listen, I know this was long time ago. But still, we can still use this comparison. This is a chart showing how the 1918 Spanish flu played out. OK? We can see this a small peak in the spring of 1918. That went down over the summer and was followed by a massive spike later that fall. It subsided again towards the end of the end and then it jumped yet again in the winter of 1919.

Now if we are, you know, in the first spike right now, are we really looking at something as terrifying as that second big jump coming in the fall? Or is healthcare better now and that will make, you know, help mitigate the resurgence like that.

MARKEL: Well, all we can do is use it as a comparison. They are different viruses. By the way, you're all in cold weather. You're going from the fall to the December of 1918. And then starting up again in January of 1919 through April. We're probably going to have a spring and a summer before the next great wave if one does occur.

And by the way, I have been thinking a lot about those two waves. We call them the second and third waves of 1918, 1919. It may have just been the same wave but social distancing was let down and the virus circulated. And there were people who are vulnerable and contracted it.

You know, when you think about it, maybe 2, 3 percent of all Americans have contracted COVID and that's being very high. Maybe 5 percent. But there's still 350 million Americans and of those maybe 300 to 325 million who have not contracted it and are vulnerable to it. They're not immune to it.

So, if the virus is circulating, if we don't social distance, if we don't literally hide from the virus, we can all catch it. And some of us will die.

LEMON: During next year's flu season, how difficult will it be for doctors and medical providers to determine the difference between the flu and COVID-19?

MARKEL: Well, it won't be difficult if we have good testing. We do have good testing for flu because we've been dealing with it for so long and we're used to testing and doing cultures for it. Hopefully by then, we'll have accurate on the spot COVID-19 or COVID-20 tests as well as antibody tests to see who is immune to it. You will just do two different swabs and test for it. [23:24:56]

But here's the other issue. We never know from season to season how severe or how lethal an influenza virus can be. And what if it's influenza's turn to become -- to mutate and become very virulent and have a novel influenza virus on top of a novel coronavirus.

It sounds too weird to be true, well, you know, we're living in an era of an emerging diseases. So, nothing is too weird anymore.

LEMON: And how effective the flu vaccine is going to be for any particular season as well.

Thank you, doctor. We appreciate it.

MARKEL: Pleasure.

LEMON: Coronavirus outbreak at a Tyson food plant has local officials demanding the company and governor close it down. I spoke with the mayor there Sunday who said it's a huge risk to worker's safety. So why is it still open when 182 of the county's 374 cases are linked to it? Mayor Quentin Heart is back with me and he's next.

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LEMON: America's major cities have been hit hardest by the coronavirus pandemic but smaller cities have their own crisis. In Iowa, the Black Hawk County Board of Health voted today to urge Governor Kim Reynolds and Tyson Foods to temporarily shut down the Waterloo pork processing plant. According to health officials, 182 of the county's 374 coronavirus cases are linked to the Tyson plant.

Now, I want to welcome back the mayor of Waterloo, Iowa, Quentin Hart. Mayor, thank you for joining us. Again, as I said to you on Sunday, I know that you're very busy, but it is good to have you here to give us some information. So Governor Reynolds is the only one with the power to force Tyson to close their plant in your city. Why are they leaving it open at this point?

MAYOR QUENTIN HART (D), WATERLOO, IOWA: You know, Don, that's the same question that we have been asking here locally, all 132,000 people in my county. You know, we have a very -- in the city of Waterloo, 70,000, 16 percent African American, Congolese, Liberian, Burmese, Bosnian, Latino within our community, that's the same question that all of us are asking.

If you take a look at the Tama plant, there are 840 people, 106 cases closed. Columbus Junction, 1,400 workers, 186 cases closed. Even Sioux Falls, 3,700 workers, 647 positive cases closed. But that number that you have been given, 182, that's absolutely not the correct number of cases that we have today dealing with the bad practices of this plant.

LEMON: How many do you believe there are?

HART: Right now, we stand about 380 with 90 plus percent of all those cases linked to the Tyson plant.

LEMON: Wow!

HART: And, you know, we just received 1,500 tests for all three of our hospitals and clinics, and we're still waiting to this day. I talked to you Sunday. I just knew that the plant would be testing people at this particular time. But still no tests, still no 2,100, 2,700 tests that I was -- that we were promised is taking place here.

LEMON: So you said you received how many tests?

HART: Thus far, we have received 1,500, and those 1,500 went to our three health care providers within our city.

LEMON: OK.

HART: But as far as the promise of having 2,100 or 2,700 cases, the on-site testing at the plant, it's not happening. This is -- I cannot believe from people that may not be of the same party that I have had tremendous relationships with, I have supported and been supported, that this isn't happening right now. This is a travesty.

LEMON: So what -- are you saying that you believe this is about politics?

HART: What I'm saying is, with me, different people come from different angles. But for me, always, I have been a person that will work on either side of the aisle. I have had great relationships. So it's not politics, it has to be -- I just don't know. I have good relationships with everybody here no matter on what side of the aisle. I am mayor for the city. I have seen my neighbors, I have seen friends, I have seen parents of students impacted by this.

The company is not doing 2,700 tests to test the people there. The place needs to be closed down. I had 20 elected officials within the county that was just on one call, that all sent a letter to the plant, asking them to close, to clean, to test everyone there, and that's not happening. I just -- I'm just -- I can't believe it.

LEMON: Tyson says that it has implemented safety measures to prevent the spread of the coronavirus. Do you believe that? Has it helped?

HART: What I will say is they probably have, but it's too late. Right now, on April 9th or 10th, we had 21 cases within the county. Right now, we're sitting at 380. When I talked to you on Sunday, we were at 192.

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HART: So those numbers have more than doubled within two days, and we just got to 1,500 tests. I'm thankful the governor followed through on that promise, and we got those tests. But my folks here, my health care workers, my firefighters, my police are at a tremendous risk and because of bad practices in the past.

LEMON: Can I ask you something real quick? Who works at the plant? HART: Yes, sir.

LEMON: Who works at the plant? Is it everyone? What was the majority?

HART: Congolese, Liberians, Burmese, Bosnians, Latino, African Americans, immigrants, whites. It is a very diverse plant of 2,700 people.

LEMON: Wow! Boy oh boy. What a predicament. Mayor, keep us updated. Good luck. We are going to continue to follow this.

HART: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you very much. People of color are disproportionately dying from coronavirus. We're going to dig past the numbers and look at the reasons behind them. The color of COVID, next.

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LEMON: Communities of color are being hit hard by the coronavirus with so many especially women of color at risk working essential jobs. Joining me now to discuss are Dr. Esther Choo, associate professor at Oregon Health and Science University, and CNN's Van Jones. Hello, Van.

So, let's talk about the color of COVID. By the way, great reviews for the special. Need to do more, on Saturday night that we did. So, Van, New York Times found that non-white women the most likely to be working at essential jobs. We are talking cleaners, grocery workers, health aides, social work. I mean, as black and brown women who are essential right now more at risk.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Yeah. You know, now, we call them essential workers. It is amazing how three months ago, when those same women wanted a minimum wage increase, no, go away. They wanted family leaves to take care of sick loved ones, no, go away. You know, when they said they wanted to be able to see a doctor, we always talk about "Medicare for All" and health care for all, doctors for people who are sick, no.

And now, it turns out these people, who we were saying were basically the invisible backbone of the economy, now they are essential, but we are not doing anything to save their lives. We are not paying them hazard pay. We are not paying them like they are essential. They should be getting paid. You know, they are risking their lives and not getting paid that way. A lot of times, they are not getting the PPE that they deserve.

You know, there are going to be statues to nurses all across this country when this thing is over. But in the meantime, you know, they are on the frontlines. They are the frontlines, women of color.

LEMON: And you're paying trillions to bail out big businesses. JONES: Yes.

LEMON: Some of them for the second time, maybe even third. So, listen, Dr. Choo, we have seen coronavirus hitting people of color at disproportionate numbers. In New York City alone, the data is showing that blacks and Latinos much more likely to die from coronavirus than whites. How much of that is because people of color are often the ones in these essential jobs?

ESTHER CHOO, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, OREGON HEALTH AND SCIENCE UNIVERSITY: Yeah, I think it is a combination of factors. What Van just mentioned, it is a huge part of it. All of this stay at home, working from home is really great if you have a job that allows it. But these frontline service workers, people who work in public transit, food service, groceries, those are disproportionately people of color.

And then later on to that, the fact that we have so many existing structural health inequities. I mean, who bears the burden of comorbidities? It is black and Latino communities. Those are the communities that are going to be hit harder by coronavirus and those are also the populations that have less access to health care. They are more likely to be uninsured and more likely to receive biased treatment when they come to health care.

I am guessing we will see as numbers rolled out a lot of under testing and late detection in these populations. So it is just layer upon layer of risk piled on so that it is really a set up to hit these vulnerable populations hardest.

LEMON: Mm-hmm. Actually, we did "The Color of COVID." There was actually -- age is actually a factor in that as well and also Native Americans factor into those numbers as well, right?

So, listen, The Washington Post is reporting that their poll with University of Maryland found that 48 percent of Hispanics, 39 percent of blacks are concerned about being able to afford food in the next month. Is food insecurity getting enough attention and how do we change that, Van Jones?

JONES: Listen, I think that right now, masks are kind of the symbol, the icon of the era, of the moment. Food lines are going to be next. We are already seeing cars lined up for miles and miles and miles in places like Los Angeles just trying to get to food banks. Luckily, Feeding America is doing a brilliant job of trying to meet the need.

But you have a double whammy on food because there is less waste food as people are hoarding more. There are fewer volunteers to get the food out. Obviously, we have this big economic problem as well. So food is a very, very big issue. Hunger can be a very big issue. We are in a tale of two countries.

[23:44:59]

JONES: You have some people who are basically chilling at home, working. They are on Zoom calls all day long. You know, people like me. You know, they are fine. We are fine. But you have a whole other America out there that cannot shelter in place because they got to go to work. And when they come back home, they don't know if they are infecting their kids and the cupboards are often bare because somebody else in the house has lost their job altogether.

And the government needs to be rushing aid, rushing money, rushing masks, rushing respirators, rushing tests to the places where the pain is. The hot spots are communities of color. That's where the pain is piling up and the help is slow to arrive. We got to do a better job.

Every layer of government has to do a better job. This is not playing a race card. It is not playing the gender card. It will play in the data card. Statistically speaking, those are the communities that are getting hit the worst and they need the most help.

LEMON: You're playing the truth card, Van. That's absolutely the truth. Dr. Choo, you know, you talked about how bias creeps into health care like who gets access to tests and early therapies, more about that before I have to head off to break. Dr. Choo?

CHOO: Yes.

LEMON: She's there. Dr. Choo, did you hear me?

CHOO: Oh --

LEMON: Yeah, that's for you.

CHOO: Oh, I'm so sorry. Yes, we're talking about bias in testing. I'm sorry. I cut off at the end. Yeah, I think there's a lot of conversation about how these health disparities are terrible but we'll deal with them later after we deal with COVID. That is not the way this can happen. I mean, this is going to play out over a long time. There are going to be a million opportunities for bias and discrimination to creep in. We need to start addressing it right now.

I mean, it started out with tests and on to access to healthcare. It's going to be an issue as we identify the most evidence-based treatments. There's potential for bias and how we enrol people in clinical trials and how we make treatments accessible. There's bias in how we determine allocation of scarce resource. There will be bias when we distribute vaccines.

So to not act now and think about how we build equity into all of these things will be an even terrible tragedy on top of the tragedy already happening.

LEMON: We are not done with this conversation. It will continue. Van, I got to go. I'm up against the break. Quickly, Van.

JONES: Listen, if you're a small business owner, Quick Base is trying to help you get the money to stay alive. It is an app to try to help small business, black businesses stay alive. Use Quick Base so we can keep our economy going our communities.

LEMON: We will be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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LEMON: As states look to reopen, what can they learn from countries that have already taken steps to ease restrictions? Joining me now is Jeremy Klondike, a senior policy fellow at the Center for Global Development and the former head of U.S. Foreign Disaster Assistance. Hello, Jeremy. How are you doing?

JEREMY KONYNDYK, SENIOR POLICY FELLOW, CENTER FOR GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT: Good evening. I'm doing fine. Thanks. How are you?

LEMON: I'm doing fine. Thank you so much. I can't complain, actually. So the U.S. has been slow to respond from the moment this crisis started, but other countries are making progress. Restrictions are being lifted in Europe as you can see on this map and in parts of Asia, as well. What should we be learning from these countries?

KONYNDYK: Well, I think what we're seeing is a lot of countries -- so if think of this, it is a bit like a fire. You know, you can fight the fire by cutting off the oxygen. That is what we are doing right now. We are cutting off the oxygen by keeping everybody at home. We're depriving the fire of fuel.

But you can't do that forever because if you cut off the oxygen long enough, you're going to suffocate. So we need to get a bucket of water handy so we can actually start putting out the flames. And the countries that have succeeded in suppressing this outbreak are the countries that have managed to transition to that bucket of water approach.

That means a lot of testing, it means a lot of contact tracing, and it means using things like quarantine and isolation in a targeted way so that we can identify people through testing, quarantine them and only them rather than quarantine the whole of society. The problem is we really are quite a long ways yet in this country from being able to do most of that.

LEMON: Yeah. Singapore clamped down on an initial wave of cases with quarantines, contact tracing, as well.

KONYNDYK: Yeah.

LEMON: And made some real progress containing it. But they've actually since seen a recent spike. Should that be a warning sign about the dangers of easing up?

KONYNDYK: Well, I think what it's a warning sign of is the dangers of having blind spots within the people who live in your country, your peripheral populations and marginalized populations. You spent your whole last segment talking about populations that are marginalized in this country. If we are overlooking anyone with the containment approach, then we are vulnerable. So that means we need to be engaging with every community in this country, no matter how politically marginal they may be, whether they are documented or undocumented, citizens or not citizens. If they live here, they need to be engaged in a public health effort.

And that's what tripped up Singapore. What tripped up Singapore were migrant workers who lived in very cramped dormitories who were falling outside of the reach of the normal public health efforts.

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KONYNDYK: And so that is where this resurgence of new cases came about, because they had a blind spot. So there's a real lesson for the U.S. there.

LEMON: Jeremy Konyndyk, thank you. We appreciate your time and your expertise. We'll see you soon.

KONYNDYK: My pleasure. Thank you.

LEMON: Yeah. Thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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