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Don Lemon Tonight

Dr. Rick Bright Ousted From His Post; CNN Returns To Wuhan, China, The Initial Epicenter Of Coronavirus, After A Brutal 76-Day Lockdown; What Can We Learn From 1918 Spanish Flu Pandemic?; Georgia Governor Moving Forward With Plans To Reopen Some Businesses Despite President Trump Now Disagreeing. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired April 22, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Eleven p.m. on the East Coast, and we've got the latest information on the coronavirus pandemic.

There are now more than 846,000 coronavirus cases in the United States. More than 46,000 deaths worldwide -- worldwide, I should say, more than 2. -- 2.6 million cases and more than 180,000 deaths.

The director of the CDC, Dr. Robert Redfield at the White House coronavirus press briefing tonight appearing to be under pressure from the president to walk back his remarks to the Washington Post that there will be a second wave of the virus this coming winter. And that combined with the flu season it may be worse than what we're experiencing now.

Dr. Redfield actually telling reporters that he was quoted accurately but clarifying that the combination of the virus and the flu could make for a situation he turned more complicated.

Also, tonight, President Trump breaking with an ally, saying that he told Georgia's Governor, Brian Kemp, that he strongly disagrees with his decision to reopen some businesses on Friday.

I want to bring in now CNN White House Correspondent John Harwood, and our resident fact checker Daniel Dale. Hello to both. John, you first. Over 46,000 people have now died in this country because of the coronavirus. But tonight, we saw our president essentially bullying the medical community into pushing his narrative when it's the science really that's going to save lives.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. And I think, Don, what we're seeing is a president who is getting knocked around by the pressure of this very, very difficult situation.

Donald Trump is a salesman. All his life he's sold great, fantastic, make America great again, make people rich. This is a grim situation economically and in public health. And so, a few weeks ago he had this idea encouraged by friends at Fox News to pump hydroxychloroquine as maybe a miracle cure here, so he touts it. He gets rid of the or his administration gets rid of the scientist who is saying no, that may not be a solution. We shouldn't pump research money there.

I should say the president has dropped talking about it as some of the bad clinical or initial small trials have come in.

The same thing with Redfield. Redfield said something about the combination of flu and coronavirus in the fall. The headline said devastating. That looked bad to Trump. Like, well, you're saying we haven't gotten on top of this situation.

So, he says Redfield was misquoted. He hauls him into the briefing room. He actually wasn't, as you pointed out, wasn't misquoted. But he then clarifies well, it was the headline I had a problem with, not the quote itself.

The same thing with the opening of these states. He, it sounds good to say we're reopening America. Let's get these states going. Liberate Minnesota. Liberate Virginia. And Brian Kemp, his ally in Georgia takes some initial steps there.

And I should say that he also responds to the pressure from the science because there was a huge backlash about what Kemp was doing. So, the president comes out tonight and says actually I don't approve of that. He tried to play it both ways, said Kemp should do what he thinks is right. But he is wavering back and forth under the immense, immense pressure of this situation.

LEMON: You mentioned this about the doctor who was in charge of that federal vaccine effort being sidelines -- sidelined. Let's listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to ask you about Rick Bright. He is the head of the federal agency in charge of getting a vaccine out to Americans once it's ready. He says he has been pushed out of his job because he raised questions about hydroxychloroquine to mere directives on that. Was he pushed out of that job?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I never heard of him. You just mentioned the name. I never heard of him. When did this happen?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This happened today.

TRUMP: Well, I never heard of him. If the guy says he was pushed out of the job, maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. You have to hear the other side. I don't know who he is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, we are in the middle of a public health emergency, but apparently getting rid of medical expert is OK. I mean, if they question Trump and he's never heard of that person. [23:05:05]

HARWOOD: It's a non-denial denial. Of course, the administration got rid of him. Maybe there's more of the story. We heard from Dr. Bright. We haven't heard from whoever actually removed him from the job if it wasn't the president himself.

But obviously, the president was acknowledging by what he said, he also separately questioned the qualifications of the doctor during one of his other answers.

So, clearly this happened at the behest of the president, and it's something that, again, reflects him seeing somebody questioning a miracle cure that he was offering and lashing out.

LEMON: Yes. Interesting. So, Daniel, the president continues to make it out like testing isn't a problem. So, let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We are the king of testing already. There's no country in the world that's done more. Not even -- not even close.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Point two percent of the population has been tested. Is that good enough?

TRUMP: I just said there's no country in the world that's done more. And we have tests that have already come out that are going to be introduced very shortly that will do a -- my problem is this. It's very much of a media trap. Whether we did 2 percent, 5 percent, 50 percent, or 100 percent, it'll never be enough.

Ultimately, we're doing more testing I think than probably any of the governors even want.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Give me the facts, Daniel.

DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: Don, there's a lot there. But I'll start with the last claim. There is no governor to my knowledge who has complained that the federal government is doing more testing than they want. I don't even know if that's possible in a pandemic.

What we've heard from governors from both parties and that includes the Republican governors of places like Wyoming, South Dakota, Ohio, various other states, is that they want to do more testing. They feel they need to do more testing to safely reopen their economies, and often they don't have the critical supplies like reagents, like swabs, like test kits they need to do the testing.

The suggestion that this is a media plot or he said a media trap is completely unfounded. The media is covering the testing issue because there's a broad bipartisan and non-partisan consensus from outside experts, professors, epidemiologists, even people like former Trump FDA chief Dr. Scott Gottlieb that testing is essential here if we're ever going to get out of this crisis.

LEMON: All right, gentlemen, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

I want to turn to Dr. William Schaffner, professor of infectious disease at Vanderbilt University, and also, Arthur Caplan, the director of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center.

Good to see both of you. Thank you so much.

Dr. Schaffner, despite what we heard from Dr. Fauci and Dr. Redfield, the president maintains that the coronavirus may not come back in the fall or it could just be embers. What are the chances of that?

WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, PROFESSOR OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: Well, I think most infectious disease doctors and public health people think that the coronavirus will come back in the fall. It will be masqueraded by influenza making even more important that we all get our influenza vaccine this coming fall. We'll be working with a double-barreled respiratory virus season I'm afraid. We all anticipate that.

LEMON: Art, you know, we saw the president repeatedly question science at today's coronavirus briefing. How concerning is this kind of rhetoric in the middle of a public health crisis?

ARTHUR CAPLAN, DIRECTOR OF DIVISION OF MEDICAL ETHICS, NYU LANGONE MEDICAL CENTER: It's usually concerning. You know, Don, what politician or ideology or salesman defeated polio? Or who was it that gave a rah-rah speech and knocked Ebola back? Nobody.

It's science. The president is asking us to stay in the middle of this worst public health outbreak maybe of many, many, many centuries, and he's got us blindfolded because he keeps muzzling scientists, pushing on people. How could he possibly not know who the guy is who's the most important federal official in charge of vaccines. Vaccines is what's going to get us out of this ultimately. He says he doesn't know who he is? That's absurd.

So, scientists and medicine are going to get us through this. If Trump continues to muzzle people, bully them, push them aside, fire them, it just means more blood on his hands.

LEMON: I'm wondering about, Art, the ethics in all of this. He -- what kind of ethical position is he putting these doctors, if any, at these briefings by questions their facts and asking them to revise statements?

CAPLAN: Well, you know, it's one thing to say let's get online with the political message. It's a very different thing to say let's ask scientists, experts, people like Dr. Bright who I know a little bit to basically twist the facts and say yes, the cure I mentioned, the malaria drugs, you know, that's really good.

[23:09:59] Let's spend money there when the science says no, it isn't, and the original science that got the president wound up isn't borne out and it's fraudulent.

So, you can't bend science to political purposes. You can't twist the facts if we're going to take on a virus by asking scientists to engage in make believe. So, I think it's among the worst most despicable immoral stances you can take to not listen to what science says or the facts.

And, you know, it leads to things like the Georgia governor saying hey, let's open up bowling alleys or the mayor of Las Vegas saying let's sacrifice the population in a test to reopen casinos. We get all kinds of nonsensical public policy if you don't have a straightforward honest science-based, evidence-based approach to this virus.

LEMON: Dr. Schaffner, you know, we've been talking a lot about Georgia. But listen, honestly there are multiple states are accounting that they're going to open up soon, that are saying that they're going to open up soon.

Pennsylvania wants to start reopening on May 1st. Montana is going to lift its stay-at-home order this Sunday. Some businesses will reopen in Oklahoma on Friday. Almost every business in Missouri will be able to open their doors on May 4th. Are you concerned about this?

SCHAFFNER: Well, sure, Don, I am. There are national guidelines of course. We need to have a flat or diminishing number of cases of coronavirus being admitted to hospitals. The hospitals have to be prepared to take care of patients. And we need an expanded testing program along with the case finding and contact tracing.

All of those things need to be in place, and then we need to continue our social distancing. I'm curious about all those places that want to open up. Are they going to require all their clientele, for example, to wear masks? Will all the people who work in those institutions be masked?

I mean, that's a very elementary part of our social distancing and our efforts to interrupt the transmission of this virus one to another. Masks are going to become a fashion statement going forward. We're all going to be wearing them for a long time, I think.

LEMON: And like you gentleman, I think with everything closed, gray hair, unruly hair, a lot of stuff is going to become fashionable the longer this goes on. And for good reason. So, thank you all. Thank you both. I really appreciate it.

CAPLAN: Thank you.

LEMON: The president has gone from repeatedly praising hydroxychloroquine as a possible miracle cure to barely mentioning it. But his statements have had a big impact including on the black market. Our report on that is next.

And also ahead, CNN is live on the ground in Wuhan, the city where the coronavirus first emerged.

[23:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The director of the office involved in developing a coronavirus vaccine saying that he was pushed out of his post because he was questioned -- he questioned drugs pushed by the president as miracle cures. One of those drugs, hydroxychloroquine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The FDA also gave emergency authorization for hydroxychloroquine. We're having some very good things happening with it.

It's shown very encouraging, very, very encouraging early results.

There's some good signs. You've read the signs. I've read the signs. And I say it, what do you have to lose? I'll say it again. What do you have to lose? Take it.

If things don't go as planned, it's not going to kill anybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, joining me now is CNN Reporter Marshall Cohen.

Marshall, good evening to you. Thanks for joining. The president went from constantly praising hydroxychloroquine to barely mentioning it. Are there now indications of why he may have moved on?

MARSHALL COHEN, CNN REPORTER: You know, Don, he hasn't said why but it's clear that something changed. You know, if you look at this chart that we put together, we tallied all the briefings, all the tweets over the past month.

Back in March he was mentioning it six, seven, eight times a day. This past week he didn't say it once including today at the briefing. What changed?

Well, there have been a series of studies in Brazil, in France and here in the U.S. in veterans hospitals that are saying that this drug that the president may be a miracle cure, hydroxychloroquine, actually has potentially no impact or a negative impact to the tune of deadly cardiac complications and there were some deaths in the trial in Brazil.

So, he hasn't come out and said why he changed his rhetoric, but he may have been watching the headlines and realizing that his optimism may have been a little bit misplaced.

LEMON: Yes. And listen, it would be great if it actually does work. There are still some clinical trials and maybe it works in some instances. We shall see. But you have to wait for the science to play out and the trials to see what, you know, what actually happens. COHEN: Right.

LEMON: But you're hearing from some of the millions of Americans who rely on hydroxychloroquine for conditions like lupus. One woman I understand telling you that that the shortages are so bad that she had to go down on her dosage just to make it last. What else are people telling you?

COHEN: Yes, Don, that woman that I spoke to, she lives in Vermont. Her local pharmacy ran out. She was able to get a prescription from the United Kingdom. It took three weeks to get here, so she started rationing her drugs.

Another woman I spoke to in California she was running out of medicine, posted a desperate plea on Twitter. A nurse that she never met from across the country reached out and offered to send her in the mail the medicine. She took it although it's highly unorthodox. It's something you never want to do. It's an incredibly dangerous move, you know, unvetted medicine.

[23:20:06]

But, you know, it just goes to show you, Don, that there are some real-world consequences to Trump, President Trump touting this drug over and over.

And I'll tell you, Don, these people with chronic illnesses like lupus, they're disproportionately women and they're disproportionately women of color.

LEMON: Wow. Hey, listen, I've got to move on. I have something I need to get. We're going to take people to Wuhan. So, quickly if you can, there's a run, I understand. This run is created an underground black market. People are playing a lot. Tell me how much.

COHEN: Yes, Don. Typically, these drugs are around a dollar. It's what doctors I spoke to today told me on the dark web, our forensic groups sources took a look at some of the dark web pages that are selling these drugs for as much as $43 a pill.

LEMON: Wow.

COHEN: Massive price gouging. It's exuberant. But look, this is what happens when there's a run on the market with all kinds of optimism that isn't backed by the science.

LEMON: Yes. Thank you, Marshall. I appreciate your reporting.

COHEN: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: The preliminary results of the hydroxychloroquine study in New York have been submitted to the State Health Department. So, joining me now is David Holtgrave, he is the lead researcher of that study. So, David, thank you for joining me. Listen, I know you can't talk about what you have found so far but everyone is waiting for the results of your study. What is the status and when can we expect to see what you have found?

DAVID HOLTGRAVE, DEAN OF THE SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH, UNIVERSITY OF ALBANY SUNY: Absolutely. And thanks for having me on. So, so far in the study which is an observational study as opposed to a randomized control trial, we wanted to do something that was as quick as possible and something that would complement the randomized control trials that are out there and underway but might take a little bit longer to do.

So, so far, we've looked at several hundred patient records from about 22 hospitals in New York. And we've really tried to examine three major questions. One is what's the prescribing pattern for physicians? Do they use hydroxychloroquine, Azithromycin, chloroquine, or neither?

Secondly, what are the side effects that may occur, if any? And then third, what are the effects on things like death, length of stay, and admission to the intensive care unit?

And also, we thought it was very important to be able to collect information on race and ethnicity and gender besides a number of clinical variables so that we would be able to say something about whether or not there are health disparities in who actually gets the drugs prescribed.

So, we've looked at several hundred records so far. We've done some preliminary analyses and submitted those to the State Health Department. It's up to the State Health Department to review those and decide if and when and how those would be released.

But we're really focused not just on the preliminary analyses. We're really focused on trying to finish our final analysis. We believe that next week we should be really close to our original planned sample size which is well over 1,000 patients and try and finish by next week our final analyses.

And as soon as that's done, we want to very quickly move to trying to get the results publicly available but also subjected to peer review. And I mean that in a quick way. We don't want to take weeks and months to go through a journal, but we do want to be able to work with a journal that could give us good solid peer review quickly to help advance the science. So, that's really the status of where we're at the moment.

LEMON: Everyone is waiting. Listen, we hope that something does happen, something good happens with if not this drug, another one and it comes along soon. Thank you very much, doctor, we appreciate it. Dr. David Holtgrave.

Listen, it has been 76 days of lockdown and now Wuhan, China is reopening. China -- CNN is on the ground there where it all started and we're going to go there live. That is next.

[23:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The city of Wuhan, China was the initial epicenter of the coronavirus pandemic. Chinese authorities closed it down for 76 days to get the virus under control.

CNN's David Culver was there as the lockdown took effect and he's had a chance to return to Wuhan, and he joins us now.

David, hello. Some states in the U.S. are considering opening gyms, salons, restaurants, other businesses. OK. So, David, we'll talk about that. Just give me the latest and then we'll get to all of those questions. Go on, please.

DAVID CULVER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, sure, Don. You know, you mentioned that we were here just before the lockdown lifted and then 76 days of a lockdown and a few more weeks of us planning return because it's not as simple as just booking a ticket and traveling around China, and we're back.

And you look behind me. You see scenes like this and you say, all right, Thursday morning, traffic is looking like it's picked up. Things seem to be back to normal. The reality is you look closer. You

begin to realize interactions have changed amongst the people. Businesses are changing their procedures, and how they operate, and things really may never return to normal.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CULVER: CNN back at the original epicenter of the novel coronavirus outbreak, Wuhan, China and its more than 11 million residents navigating this post-lockdown uncertainty. Among them, American Christopher Suzanne.

[23:30:04]

Let's switch out masks. And let's see our preference here.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to use my mask --

CULVER (voice-over): He suggested we upgrade our protective equipment before going for a stroll. It's a city he knows well.

SUZANNE: So this place is, you know, I was married here. I had a baby here. I've been here for the past 10 years.

CULVER (on camera): This is home.

SUZANNE: Yeah, this is home.

CULVER (voice-over): Christopher's home is slowly emerging from a brutal 76-day lockdown. He returned to Wuhan in the midst of it.

SUZANNE: I'm real happy to see, like, people at least, you know, keeping their distance, getting around, going about their day.

CULVER (voice-over): But just two weeks after the reopening and some here are closing the gap on social distancing. Many stores and restaurants are keeping people from coming inside, but that's not stopping crowds like this one from standing shoulder to shoulder waiting outside for their orders.

In places like our hotel, there are noticeably stricter measures. Staff spraying us down each time we walk in and checking our temperatures. Inside, even the elevators are telling you where to stand and offering you a tissue to touch the buttons. But would it lasts?

SUZANNE: We are afraid that there is going to be a second wave. I think everybody here knows --

CULVER (on camera): You think it's coming?

SUZANNE: Absolutely.

CULVER (voice-over): Yet there is growing skepticism over where the first wave actually originated.

(On camera): So, this is where Chinese health officials believe the source of the novel coronavirus is. This is the Huanan seafood market. Of course, they believe other things may have been sold here, hence, the transmission from animals to humans of this virus.

But you can see it's all closed off still. This has now been since January 1 that they shut it down. However, I want to take you now to the lab where U.S. Intelligence is looking into the possible origins of this virus having come from there.

(Voice-over): We drove to the lab inside China's center for disease control, just down the street from the market.

CULVER (on camera): This is one of the labs within Wuhan, not too far from the market either.

(Voice-over): It's an origin theory Chinese officials quickly dismiss. They also push back claims that the reported number of cases in deaths is far less than reality, even as numbers have repeatedly been revised upward to account for previous undercounts. Just last week, another 50 percent was added to the Wuhan death toll alone.

SUZANNE: Whether or not they want to share that information with the public here doesn't really concern me. I'm really more concerned about my family and what we can do.

CULVER (voice-over): And others, like this convenience shop owner, more worried about resurrecting their businesses. "I'm a bit worried. I don't know when we will resume completely." As China claims to get the virus under better control in places like Wuhan, there's now greater concern of those coming in from elsewhere. From our arrival into this city to this interview out in the street, we were questioned repeatedly.

(On camera): I'm from the U.S. but I live in Beijing.

CULVER (voice-over): A group of plain clothed and uniformed police growing increasingly uneasy with us being there, a reflection of both their fear of imported cases and a mounting distrust of foreign media.

(On camera): Yeah. We'll go in the car. We'll go.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CULVER: And, Don, I'll point out to you, that last interaction there with police and some of the community watch people is really indicative of two things. As I mentioned, it is one, the growing distrust of foreign media and the concern of tensions growing between the U.S. and China. And two, it's this concern of foreigners, those of us who look different, who may have come from another country and potentially brought with us the virus.

That's what they're really worried about because state media here has been stressing imported cases as the new threat, the external threat that's now facing the place where it all started, Don.

LEMON: Got you. So, David, I got little ahead of myself because I'm told I can ask you a couple of questions. I've been watching you on CNN international as well, watching your reports of you going around Wuhan. It's a great reporting, by the way.

So, you know, we're a little bit behind you, guys. So, I'm just wondering about, you know, as people here start considering gyms and salons and restaurants and other businesses opening up, you know, China is a couple months ahead of us and Wuhan officially reopened. Are these types of businesses back open there?

CULVER: Well, first of all, thanks for the kind words. It's a testament to my team here. It's a lot of work that they put into really finding out how things are moving forward here, and that's why we are here because it helps us see it at first hand.

Now, to those businesses, it is interesting, hearing that the U.S. is moving toward that direction. I am not here to endorse one way or the other. I can just tell you how things are working here or not working still. I mean, a lot of places are still closed.

They talk about Wuhan reopening. It's not like every business has just opened up their gates and they're now back open and customers are comfortable going there. In fact, there's a lot of hesitation that is still here. Places like fitness centers, certainly not open.

[23:34:59]

CULVER: You've got places like salons, they've opened but they're doing things differently. I mean, they're buffering, for example, of the place that I would go, every hour. They have a customer, then they have an hour space, and then they have another customer. So, they buffer so that they can sanitize and make people feel comfortable and avoid that interaction.

A lot of restaurants have changed how they're doing business. Fast food places like Starbucks and McDonalds and Burger King here, they bring the food out to the front. You do not enter the restaurant. It's almost like they've set up shop at the front door. They've changed their procedures and how they're doing things. Some places are not reopening. Cinemas certainly aren't reopening.

LEMON: You recently reported on the challenges of getting around different parts of China and the mandatory quarantines. How is it getting around there and will you have to get tested?

CULVER: So, we did get a test. It's interesting because, you know, you go back three months and we were in Wuhan and yet we then went to two weeks of quarantine before the rest of the world was doing quarantine and we did that in Beijing. And then we continued on to Shanghai.

So, moving around China is tricky because what you start to see are hotspots popping up. Right now, it's focused more towards the north with the border with Russia. That's where the real concern is. New lockdown measures are actually in place there.

However, with the reopening and the easing of restrictions here in Wuhan, the idea from the central government is that folks leaving Wuhan should be safe because things are, according to the government, under control here. So the migrant workers who are here should be able to go back into cities without any issue.

They do distinguish from foreigners because they are concerned about the imported cases. But for the most part, they're trying to create at least domestically this idea of unrestricted travel. There are still a lot of concerns, and that's why tracing, especially with technology, is a big thing that they're relying on.

We each have QR code assigned to us depending on where we register. Mine, for example, is registered in Shanghai. It allows me to get into hotels here, but it doesn't necessarily vouch for me getting into certain restaurants and businesses here. So it's not a perfect system and it certainly raises a lot of privacy concerns, yet it is what they are relying on to try to restart and navigate these new waters.

LEMON: David, I've got to get to the break. I've gotten the wrap. But are you a little nervous, a little hesitant about being there, honestly?

CULVER: Well, I've got 10 hours before I get my results back. My team and I honestly are hoping that it's a negative so that we don't have to be put back into quarantine. We've already done that. A lot of folks have dealt with a lot worse. So, we'll see what's thrown at us.

LEMON: Understood. Thank you very much. Appreciate it, David Culver. As states prepare to reopen, what can they learn from past pandemics? We're going to look at what happened during the 1918 Spanish flu and the lessons we can learn from it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: President Trump changing his tune tonight, now saying he strongly disagrees with Governor Brian Kemp's decision to reopen parts of the Georgia economy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I told the governor of Georgia, Brian Kemp, that I disagree strongly with his decision to open certain facilities, which are in violation of the phase one guidelines for the incredible people of Georgia. It's just too soon. I think it's too soon. And I love the people. I love -- I love those people that use all of those things, the spas and the beauty parlors and barbershops, tattoo parlors. I love them. But they can wait a little bit longer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Of course, this is the same president who has been praising Governor Kemp and encouraging protesters to go into the streets and push to reopen businesses.

Joining me now is John Barry. He is the author of "The Great Influenza," the story of the deadliest pandemic in history. Doctor, it's good to see you. Thank you so much. We're still in the thick of the first wave of this virus. People are already thinking about the next wave. What lessons can we draw from the 1918 pandemic as we look at what different states are deciding right now?

JOHN BARRY, AUTHOR, "THE GREAT INFLUENZA": Well, an awful lot of cities in 1918 had closure orders, reopened, and then had to close again. It's a consistent pattern. The pressures were very similar to what they are today. The business community by and large wanted to open in a particular city. Eventually, the politicians overruled the health officials and caved in. And then they had to close again a second time, in some cases, a third time.

If you do that, you basically sacrifice all the pain and suffering that people have already gone through. It goes to waste. So, I think it's got to be a very, very carefully phase in reopening.

LEMON: Excuse me. You say one of the big differences with COVID-19 and the Spanish flu is how long it is taking this disease to move through our cities. Why do you say that?

BARRY: Well, influenza, the incubation period is a lot shorter, on average two days, never longer than four days. It passes through the body more quickly than coronavirus.

[23:45:03]

BARRY: So, when you add the incubation period, so each generation of disease takes longer, as I say, it goes through the body longer, people shed virus longer, it creates an enormous management problem for everybody. It just stretches the entire series and sequence out.

Influenza in 1918, it would go through a community in six to 10 weeks, and then it was essentially gone. It might be another wave that came later but it was quite a while later. And, you know, there was essentially no real threat once that first sequence had been passed. I don't think this virus is going to be like that. I think the huge numbers of susceptible people, you know, right now, at most, five percent of the population has been exposed and probably not that much. Ninety-five percent of the population is susceptible, at least. That whole process is just going to work its way out very slowly.

LEMON: Listen, you know this because you've written about it. I want to put a chart up on the screen that shows how the 1918 Spanish flu played out. You can see the massive spike in deaths that hit in the fall. When you look at this chart, where do you think we are now in the coronavirus pandemic?

BARRY: Unfortunately, I think we're very early. And speaking of Georgia, I think San Antonio in 1918 would be a good example. It was one of the last cities to impose any closure orders. It was one of the first cities to reopen. And 53 percent of the entire population got infected with influenza.

Ninety-eight percent of the households in San Antonio had at least one person sick. And influenza is less contagious than the coronavirus. So, I think that Georgia's action is just, you know, incomprehensible and very dangerous.

LEMON: Let's talk about two cities in particular. I want to talk about Philadelphia and St. Louis. I have another chart. You can see in this chart that Philadelphia was hit really hard in the fall of 1918 while St. Louis had a much more gradual curve that reached a much smaller peak in the winter. What did Philadelphia do differently?

BARRY: Well, again, they acted late. St. Louis acted early. When the, you know, interventions come early. That's before the virus is widely disseminated in the community. So, you have some control over it. Sort of somewhat akin to the way some of the Asian countries and Germany acted, you know, Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore, as I said Germany also, not just the Asian countries.

Philadelphia acted after the virus had already spread in the community, and they got that huge spike. In addition, they had some -- they had a parade with several hundred thousand people there after the medical professionals had urged the cancelling of the parade. They ignored it because in World War I, they were selling war bonds, and that significantly contributed to that spike.

LEMON: Doctor, thank you.

BARRY: You're very welcome.

LEMON: Georgia will start reopening Friday, and some residents there are worried, including my next guest. She is a small business owner who says she is not opening up after she tested positive for coronavirus three times. And that's not her only reason.

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[23:50:00]

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LEMON: Tonight, Georgia Governor Brian Kemp, saying he is moving forward with his decision to reopen certain businesses on Friday despite President Trump saying at tonight's press briefing that he disagrees with it.

I want to talk about the move to reopen businesses with Shuntel Myrick. She is a small business owner in Georgia, who's tested positive for COVID-19 three times. Shuntel, we appreciate you coming on and being so candid with us. You're OK now, right? I know that you tested positive, but you are doing OK, right?

SHUNTEL MYRICK, SMALL BUSINESS OWNER WHO TESTED POSITIVE FOR COVID- 1919 THREE TIMES: I am. I want to say thank you so much for the opportunity to be able to share my experience and concerns and to talk to you to thank you for the opportunity.

LEMON: You have followed the absolute -- listen, again, we appreciate it. You have followed all the CDC guidelines. Do you know if you are still contagious?

MYRICK: I have no idea whether I'm contagious or not. On March the 23rd, I actually ended up in the emergency room. I was having some chest pain. I thought it was a heart attack. Fast forward. COVID testing came back positive. And, per the CDC, they tell me to wait 14 days, quarantine. Three days, no fever, without any fever-reducing medication, in which I followed those instructions.

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MYRICK: And I went back to retest 21 days after. So I gave it a little bit more extra time.

LEMON: And you still tested -- hey, listen, Shuntel. I think we're going to lose your shot. Can you just please tell us why you want to do this? What you want people to know before we lose your shot because it's tricky. Please.

MYRICK: I want people to know that this is what COVID-1919 looks like. I'm sure that there may be others out there, like myself. And I want people to know that I'm still testing positive. I tested positive for three times now. I don't know if I'm still contagious or not.

So Governor Kemp opening Georgia up on Friday, I don't think it's a great idea because I don't know how many people out there are like me. I frequently go to the bank, to the post office, to the grocery store. All of those places that are, you know, full of people. And with me testing positive, no one can tell me the medical metrics on whether or not I'm still contagious. So I am confined to my bedroom.

LEMON: Yeah. I think we're losing your shot. Shuntel, I am so sorry about that. Shuntel, we -- Myrick, we appreciate you joining us. But, again, Shuntel's message is that she thinks it's too early to open up because she has tested positive three times. She doesn't know if she is contagious. And she wants the governor to pull back on that. So, Shuntel, thank you so much. We appreciate it. Thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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