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Don Lemon Tonight

President Trump Itching To Do Some Rallies?; Dr. Fauci Announces Significant, Positive Effect Of Remdesivir As A Treatment For Coronavirus; Coronavirus Taking Disproportionate Toll On Communities Of Color; Study Shows More Than 80 Percent Of Hospitalized Coronavirus Patients In Georgia Were African-Americans; President Trump Orders Meat Processing Plants To Stay Open; How Will Covid-19 Impact Retail Sector Of The Economy? Aired 10-11p ET

Aired April 29, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Let's bring in D. Lemon. I want to thank you for watching, of course. "CNN TONIGHT" with my man starts right now.

I want to read a quote that Rosalie gave to me tonight, Don. Listen to this. Listen to this. Hold on. I got to get it here. Just give me a second. Listen to this, Don.

(CROSSTALK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: You want me to tell you your code? It's 437 -- no, I'm kidding.

CUOMO: Here it is. When I is replaced by we. Even illness becomes wellness. That's from Malcolm X. Isn't that great and apropos of where we are right now?

LEMON: It is. That is great. Like a rose -- Malcolm X. Come on now, Rosalie (Ph).

CUOMO: That is strong. I didn't even believe it. When she sent it to me, I was like, who said that? Malcolm X. I said check it twice. She said, shut up and use it.

LEMON: We're all fired up about as I was getting plugged in something about Florida. What were you getting fired up on? Spring break --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: They are hiding the death numbers. They are hiding the death numbers and they put out a response about why. And they said well, you really only want to count deaths by residents. And if you're not a resident here, we don't really count that, and that's what we're adjusting for right now.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: So those people aren't people, they don't matter. CUOMO: Yes, it doesn't make any sense. First of all, if you have a

situation in your midst, it doesn't matter if it's coming from residents or nonresidents, but I'll tell you what it does explain, why they're so happy to let the spring breakers go down there and do stupid stuff and then go back to states all over the country carrying the virus.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Because they don't care about people who aren't residents.

LEMON: Late to close, early to open up. We'll see. I hope those numbers don't go up for the states who are opening up now, but I got to tell you, it doesn't look good, but I am praying.

By the way, your brother was on fire today talking about people politicizing this pandemic. And I think a lot of people agree with him. That's all I'll say. I got to run. I got to run.

CUOMO: I think that it's a hard spot. It's a hard spot. No, no, no, take the time. Do your show. I'll be watching.

LEMON: All right. Brother, I'll see you later.

CUOMO: I love you. Be well.

LEMON: Have a good night. I love you, too.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Here's our breaking news. We have now passed 60,000 deaths. Imagine that, 60,000 deaths from the coronavirus in this country. You probably remember it was just last week that the president was predicting the total death toll from the virus. It would be 60,000. That would be the total death toll. We are already past that point.

There are still many more people in the hospital, many more people who are sick. But as there are more and more cases, over 1,038,000 as death -- as deaths pass 60,800 -- 60,800 there may be -- excuse me, if I can get my mouth to work, there may be a glimmer of hope on the horizon, a glimmer of hope and that's the good news.

Dr. Anthony Fauci optimistic about a possible drug treatment for the coronavirus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: The data shows that Remdesivir has a clear-cut significant positive effect in diminishing the time to recovery.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So, here's what that means from that short sound bite from Dr. Fauci. That means that patients with severe coronavirus infections who took Remdesivir could recover faster than patients who didn't take it.

A preliminary trial shows that their recovery time went down from 15 to 11 days. Shortened it by about four days. It's not a miracle cure, but what's exciting to doctors is that this is the first thing that seems to have an impact on the coronavirus.

The New York Times is reporting the FDA plans to announce an emergency use authorization for the drug. That, as the Trump administration is launching a project to speed up the development of a potential coronavirus vaccine with the goal of manufacturing hundreds of millions of doses by the end of the year.

But there's no vaccine yet. Though there are projects in the works around the world. All of this just proves that we need more testing. We need to know how far this virus has spread. We need to know how many Americans are at risk. That's obvious to everybody. Well, maybe not everybody.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: If we do two million tests, they said how come you didn't do three? Well, we do three and then they say how come you didn't do -- that's like a -- that's like a dream for the media, but we've done incredible with testing, and you'll see over the next coming weeks.

Mike, you may want to speak about that a little bit, but over the next coming weeks you'll see some -- some astonishing numbers. I don't know that all of that is even necessary.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, he's president and the president doesn't know if all that testing is even necessary? Mr. President, with over 60,000 dead Americans, it is necessary. And wasn't it you who made this promise almost two months ago?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Anybody that needs a test gets a test. They're there. They have the tests and the tests are beautiful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. He said what he said. Maybe he said what he said today not because the testing is unnecessary but because the president has not been able to deliver on his promise.

[22:05:04]

The president is contradicting his own administration's guidance and the advice of experts because he apparently wants to paint a picture of an America that's over the virus and is roaring back.

And it's not the first time that he has done an about-face on testing and it's not even the first time today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, on testing, yesterday you said that we will very soon be testing five million people. That we're doing five million --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: I don't know where it came from.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said that.

TRUMP: I'd like to refer to these two people because I don't know where it came up. Everyone kept saying you said there would be five. That was a study that came out. Somebody came out with a study of five million people.

Do I think we will? I think we will, but I never said it. We're testing millions of people. We're testing more people than anyone -- any country in the world by far. By double. By much more than double. More than everybody else combined we're testing, but somebody started throwing around five million. I didn't say five million. Somebody said five million. I think it might have been the Harvard report. There was a report from Harvard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were asked about it --

TRUMP: And they said five million. Well, we will be there, but I didn't say it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He said it all right. He said it yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You argue saying you're confident you can surpass five million tests per day, is that.

TRUMP: Well, we're going to be there very soon. If you look at the numbers, it could be that we're getting very close. I mean, I don't have the exact numbers. We would have had them if you asked me the same question a little while ago because people with these statistics were there. We're going to be there very soon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, he said that yesterday. Today, he claims he never said it. By the way, Admiral Brett Giroir, the top administration official in charge of testing told Time magazine yesterday there is no way this country can conduct five million tests per day.

Quote, "there is absolutely no way on earth on this planet or any other planet that we can do 20 million tests a day or even five million tests a day." But this president who famously said my gut tells me more sometimes

than anybody's brain can ever tell me, he just doesn't want to listen to the experts, his own experts. He might even be a little bit jealous of them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a privilege --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: And you tell me you were very inspired by these two very famous people over here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

TRUMP: They've become more famous than me. I'm a little bit jealous.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What was that all about? All of this flip-flopping, all of this ignoring the experts the people who actually know what they're talking about. It's about a president who thinks that he can just demand that everything go back to the way it was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I was on the phone with the commissioners and some of the owners of sports, of big-time sports, and he was talking almost like he was going to have two or three seats in between everybody that was there.

And I said, you know, you're not going to have to do that for that long. You know, you're going to be back. He said, really? Really? He was like -- I don't want people to get used to this because this virus is going to be gone. And when it's gone, you want to get back to normal.

You're not going to have a stadium that's 30 percent the size of what it was three months ago. If I watch Alabama play LSU, I don't want to see 20,000 people instead of 120,000 people. We want it to be the way it was.

Now, we're going to wait until it's gone, and it will be gone, and we've done a lot to get rid of it, but we -- we want to open our country. The people want this country open.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Yes. Let me just say something before I move on with what I have planned here. I've seen so many people out and about lately not socially distancing, not wearing masks, not following the rules.

This is not over. You may think it's over because if you -- if you actually pay attention to what's happening in Washington with this administration, not having the briefings, trying to -- pretending that this is over. Because they want to move on to other things.

So not having those briefings, that's all part of the plan for you to think that this is over. That we have moved beyond this. People are still dying at alarming rates. Those quarantine orders that are given, they're still in place. There are still orders in most places.

So, don't get it twisted. Don't sit there and think that this is over because you've just -- you've been in the house for a long time. That's not so.

[22:09:59]

Think about the people who are giving up their jobs, who have come to New York and other places and are putting their lives on the line and their health on the line.

And yet, you're out running around and you're getting coffee and you're doing your thing and you're running around to the store without your mask and I see everybody out -- every day I come into work, I go between my house the last two weeks, I've been to my house and work. And I see more and more traffic.

I don't know whether people are essential. I don't know where they're going. But this is not over yet. Until the authorities tell you it's over then it's over. No more than 10 people. That you have been with for the last however many days that you have been in quarantine. That's how it works, people.

Why are people sacrificing so much for you to pretend you're doing it but not really do it? You're putting other people's lives at risk. This is real.

Now, this is -- the fact is, for everybody, everybody wants this country to open. Nobody -- I come into an empty building, a giant -- I work in a high rise that is, I don't know, 100 stories, I have no idea. I'm probably one of seven people in this entire building right now. It's lonely. That is not even a big deal. Who cares?

But I want to be around people just like you want to be around people. I want my entire staff back. I'm in a studio. There is nobody in here but me. Everybody wants to get back to work. But when it is safe. When officials, when the experts tell you it's time to go back to work. It's time to let up off the gas.

Do it when the experts, the scientists, the doctors, not when the politicians who are playing political games tell you. The politicians who are listening to the scientists. So, everyone wants to go back to work when it is safe at first. And that takes what? Testing.

These are the facts, OK? Ninety-one percent in the latest Marist poll say it is a bad idea to allow large groups of people to attend sporting events without further testing. Eighty-five percent say it is a bad idea for students to go back to school without more testing. Eighty percent say it is a bad idea to open restaurants for people to

dine in. Why? Because everybody's sitting there breathing the same air, coughing, spitting, talking, everything is going everywhere, touching. Come on. Hello, common sense.

Not only are those big majorities in the polling I just gave you, those majorities stretch across party lines. It is common sense to most people in this country. But those numbers don't play into the president's narrative. That everything will be back the way it was soon.

It's never going to be the same anymore. It's going to be a new normal, and no one knows what it's going to be like on the other side. No -- and don't let anybody tell you. That the economy will be booming. We don't know that. No expert knows that. Trust me.

And, again, everybody wants the economy to come back. And they want it to come back as soon as possible. I have family members who are entrepreneurs, small businesses, they have not worked, they are hurting. This country is hurting.

But the president also wants to showcase an economy -- an economic recovery with election day in just a few months. Come on, people, think about it. Be smart. And he wants to get back to his beloved campaign rallies. Trust me. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, you said you were anxious to get out of the White House. When we see will we see some travel in the next week or so?

TRUMP: I think so. I think I'm going to Arizona next week. And we look forward to that. And I'm going to I hope Ohio very soon and we're going to start to move around, and hopefully in the not too distant future while we'll have some massive rallies and people will be sitting next to each other.

I can't imagine a rally where you have every fourth seat full. Every -- every six seats are empty for every one that you have full. That wouldn't look too good. No, I look -- I hope that we're going to be able to do some good old fashioned 25,000-person rallies where everyone's going wild because they love our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He said it. He told you. It's not even a -- it's not -- it's not pretend. He's telling you.

[22:15:00]

Sources telling CNN the president has been itching to get out of the White House to tout a country that is open for business. People are still dying. People are actually still catching coronavirus. And he's depending on team Trump to back him up. The president's son-in-law and his senior adviser Jared Kushner

calling the administration's coronavirus response a great success story. A great success story.

Remember that big banner behind former President George Bush? "mission accomplished." Jared Kushner, great success story, on the day the death toll passed 60,000. And saying this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JARED KUSHNER, SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think what you'll see in May, as the states are reopening now is May will be a transition month. You'll see a lot of states starting to phase in the different reopening based on the safety guidelines that President Trump outlined on May -- on April 19th.

I think you'll see by June a lot of the country should be back to normal, and the hope is that by July the country is really rocking again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Rocking. Jesus. As my grandmother would say, lord, have mercy. No, she would say, lord, have mercy, Jesus.

Inside the White House, sources say that Kushner has been privately frustrated that he and the administration aren't getting enough credit for their efforts fighting the virus.

There's a reason for that. Because over 60,000 people are dead. The administration dropped the ball from the beginning. Underplayed the threat posed by the virus. Announced initiatives to fight it that never came to pass. Championed a drug as a miracle cure that studies so far have found to have dangerous side effects.

And now says maybe the tests that we don't have enough of aren't even necessary. And it's selling all of that to you, the American people, as a great success story.

Imagine going into your boss and saying, here's -- I've -- look how successful this is, boss. What would he say? You're fired. A great success story. If you don't buy that, I don't blame you.

CNN White House Correspondent, Jeremy Diamond is here. Harvey, Dr. Harvey V. Weinberg (ph), the chair of the -- Harvey Fineberg, excuse me, the chair of the Standing Committee on Emerging Infectious Diseases, joins us as well. I appreciate both of you. Thank you so much.

Jeremy, I'm going to start with you. The entire country is focused on the pandemic, public safety, but you have new reporting about how the pandemic is affecting the president. He's laying into his campaign manager over his sagging poll numbers, I understand. What do you have?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Don. President Trump has been growing increasingly unnerved about his re- election prospects over the last week.

I'm told that it all came to a ahead, actually, on Friday evening when the president had a meeting with some aides and his campaign manager Brad Parscale. He was on the other end of the phone.

And that's when I'm told according to three sources familiar with the matter that President Trump began berating Parscale for his sagging poll numbers. He also even threatened to sue his campaign manager, although it's not entirely clear for what or how serious the president was about that, but it was the latest incident in which you saw the president's frustrations and his concerns about his prospects for re- election in 2020 come to the surface.

Just two days before that, the president had huddled with some of his top political advisers, including Parscale and the RNC chairwoman Ronna McDaniel. And during that phone call, I'm told, Don, that the president was faced with the grim, you know, serious reality of his re-election chances, and that is, that according to internal RNC and Trump campaign polling data the president is headed for defeat in some of the key battleground states.

And one of the reasons that some of these aides were emphasizing was the president's daily combative news conferences. The president was specifically shown data that shows that some of these swing voters in some of those key states were really turned off by the president's performance in some of those briefings.

And this is part of one of those latest efforts, Don, by those aides to try and get the president to scale back those daily news conferences.

[22:19:56]

Of course, just the next day what we saw from the president was perhaps his most self-defeating news conference yet when he came out and talked about Americans potentially ingesting disinfectant in order to cure themselves of the coronavirus.

And so, then it was in that context, don, the next day the president fuming over the criticism that he was receiving for that that he lit into his campaign manager Brad Parscale.

LEMON: Wow, that was just last week. It seems like, man, a lifetime ago with the disinfectants and the ingesting and all that.

Dr. Fineberg, I want you to listen to something that we heard from President Trump this evening. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Hopefully in the not too distance future we'll have some massive rallies, and people will be sitting next to each other.

I can't imagine a rally where you have every fourth seat full. Every -- every six seats are empty for every one that you have full. That wouldn't look too good. No, I look -- I hope that we're going to be able to do some good old

fashioned 25,000-person rallies where everyone is going wild because they love our country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, do you expect to be able to hold rallies before the election?

TRUMP: I hope so. I hope so. Look, we have a tremendous pent-up demand. They love what we're doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, doctor, the president did say that it will depend on states. I mean, he talked about how some states are in great shape now, but are massive rallies, you know, in the not too distant future really a good idea, not as a political question, but from a health perspective?

HARVEY FINEBERG, CHAIR, STANDING COMMITTEE ON EMERGING INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Don, what's important here is that this virus doesn't care about American politics. It doesn't care whether you have a rally for political reasons, for a sporting event, for a choir that's going to sing together, for a musical festivity, it doesn't make any difference.

The virus spreads through proximity of one person who's infected to others who are not infected. The larger the numbers, the more likely infection will spread. The longer the time together, the more likely infection will spread.

Shouting, singing, cheering are all things that help the virus to spread from one person through droplets that are visible and invisible from one person to another.

So, in short, bringing together 25,000 people for any reason in a closed space for any length of time while this virus is still present is not a good idea.

LEMON: Jeremy, doctor, thank you both. I appreciate it.

Next, I'm going to ask a researcher who has studied Remdesivir for years whether he thinks the drug could be a turning point in the fight against the coronavirus.

[22:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Dr. Anthony Fauci optimistic today about a study of the anti- viral drug Remdesivir, saying that the data shows the drug has a clear-cut significant positive effect in speeding up recovery from the virus.

Let's discuss now with Dr. Ralph Baric. He's an epidemiologist at the University of North Carolina's Gillings School of Global Public Health. He's a leading researcher of Remdesivir. Six years ago, by the way, you see testing labs partnered with a biopharmaceutical company Gilead Scientists, the maker of the drug.

And tonight, the head of Gilead says the company has enough supply of Remdesivir to treat at least 140,000 patients. So, doctor, with that said, thank you so much. We appreciate you joining us tonight.

RALPH BARIC, EPIDEMIOLOGIST, UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA GILLINGS SCHOOL OF GLOBAL PUBLIC HEALTH: Thank you, Don. I love your show.

LEMON: Thank you very much. We're glad that you love it.

So, Dr. Fauci said this study proves that a drug can block the virus. You studied Remdesivir for years in partnership with Gilead before this coronavirus even hit. How can it help fight this virus?

BARIC: Well, we became interested in developing a broad spectrum anti- viral against all known coronaviruses as well as new coronaviruses that might emerge in the future.

So, around 2012, a good friend of mine named Mark Denison at Vanderbilt and I formed a partnership to try to identify a drug that would work against all the contemporary human coronaviruses, the emerging coronaviruses like SARS and MERS and those coronaviruses that they may cause outbreaks of disease in the future.

And after screening about 300,000 drugs, we came down to this drug named Remdesivir that had been developed by Gilead Scientific. And Remdesivir blocks the ability of the virus to replicate.

We were able to show that it worked effectively in what are called primary human airway of epithelial cells. These are the normal targets for virus infection that SARS 1 and SARS 2 both infect in the human lung.

And since the drug worked under -- in the cells that are normally targeted by infection, we then took that -- those studies into animals and demonstrated that the drug worked against all coronaviruses in that.

LEMON: OK.

BARIC: And so, with that background information, we were well- positioned to move it into human trials.

LEMON: So, you explained it all there. So, thank you very much. And we love -- I love the wonk. So, thank you. I appreciate it.

You know, when I was watching, I was watching this happening live, and I can understand, you know, some people said, well, that was an overstatement.

But I can understand, especially coming from someone who was worked with this -- who has worked in this field. When he compared it to finally finding something that at least have some effect on HIV and he talked about AZT.

I can understand because finally there was something that showed that had somewhat of an impact on this virus, and people get excited about it because finally something has worked. Am I -- am I correct? And who knows where it's going to go, but finally there is something that appears to have an effect on it.

BARIC: That's right. It's very exciting. It's a game-changer. We know we can develop drugs against the virus, and that will galvanize the scientific community to identify better drugs, combinations of drugs with Remdesivir that continue to improve outcomes in patients.

So, I think it's a very exciting development and it offers real hope to humans infected with this terrible virus.

[22:29:57]

LEMON: Yes. So, we don't know where it's going to go. It's not the end-all be-all, but it opens the door or the window for something else and then something else and then you build upon that and then you build upon that, correct?

BARIC: That's correct.

LEMON: Yes.

BARIC: That's correct.

LEMON: Doctor, it's pleasure having you. We hope that you would come back. I know it's a very busy time for you, but thank you so much. OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, thank you for taking time to inform the public.

LEMON: Absolutely.

So, make sure to watch tomorrow night, because Dr. Anthony Fauci and Bill Gates are going to join Anderson and Dr. Gupta, live for a CNN global town hall, Coronavirus Facts and Fears, 8:00 p.m. tomorrow night, right here on CNN.

And next, black business owners in Georgia are worried that they and their customers are at greater risk as a new report shows 80 percent of hospitalized coronavirus patients in the state are African- American.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:35:00]

LEMON: People of color are disproportionately hit hard by the coronavirus all across this country. Washington State Governor Jay Inslee says Hispanic residents make up 30 percent of cases in that state while only representing only 13 percent of the population. And a new study published by the CDC finding over 80 percent of hospitalized coronavirus patients in Georgia were African-Americans. That as black business owners in Georgia are facing a tough choice over whether or not to reopen. CNN's Victor Blackwell has that story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORREPONDENT: Just south of Atlanta --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Order up, OK?

BLACKWELL: Gocha's breakfast bar is open but business is slow.

GOCHA HAWKINS, OWNER, GOCHA'S BREAKFAST BAR: We went from a fall restaurant of 120-seat capacity to maybe two or three people are trickling in.

BLACKWELL: Owner, Gocha Hawkins is offering dine-in services days after Georgia Governor Brian Kemp eased restrictions on restaurants, but does she think this is right for all restaurants?

HAWKINS: I didn't think it was a good idea because just the masses of people in restaurants, the not social distancing, I just -- I thought it was too soon. Too much too soon.

BLACKWELL: Carlos Davis' barber shop in Albany is open too, and he's afraid.

CARLOS DAVIS, OWNER CUTOLOGY BARBER SHOP: Fear what's out here, but in fear of if you don't get back to opening you won't have a business to open.

BLACKWELL: It's a challenge that some African-American business owners who serve mostly African-American customers are weighing. How to reopen without contributing to the racial disparity of coronavirus cases. According to the most recent census, African-Americans account for 32 percent of Georgia's population, but in cases in which race is reported, African-Americans account for 40 percent of coronavirus cases. Dyan Matthews is president of the South Fulton Chamber of Commerce, her group represents businesses in eight north Georgia cities, most are majority African-American.

DYAN MATTHEWS IS PRESIDENT OF THE SOUTH FULTON CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: The biggest fear is that a lot of the nonessential businesses are just going to end up having to open up all their doors. And that's going to continue raising the numbers in our community, putting us even more and more at risk.

BLACKWELL: Glenn Singfield II, co-owns the flint restaurant in Albany.

GLENN SINGFIELD II, CO-OWNER, THE FLINT RESTAURANT: My governor, mayor, all them, however, we have to do what's best for our community and our -- and our people and our employees.

BLACKWELL: That's why some of these business owners are staking steps to keep themselves and their customers safe.

HAWKINS: They're only coming in one or two at a time.

BLACKWELL: Gocha says that she'll limit capacity to 10, although a total of six customers have dined in each day this week. Carlos' barbers are wearing face masks and cutting by appointment only. DAVIS: It's kind of a gamble, but I really don't have a choice.

BLACKWELL: Glenn is not taking a chance.

SINGFIELD II: Anybody getting sick or passing away and getting sick will hurt us personally. We're standing aware, we are going to remain safe for a little while.

BLACKWELL: Victor Blackwell, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Very good reporting by Victor Blackwell. Thank you, Victor. Now, I want to bring in Dr. Camara Jones, she's an epidemiologist and family doctor.

Doctor, thank you so much. You just -- Victor just highlighted black business owners in Georgia facing this terrible choice between their businesses and their health. Talk about the threat black communities are facing as these states reopen.

DR. CAMARA JONES, EPIDEMIOLOGIST CTOR: Well, I just have to be clear at the beginning that it is premature for most states, I would say, actually all states to reopen, but especially Georgia. And that's because we do not know how much virus there is in the community. Even the little bit of testing that we're doing is limited to people who have symptoms.

We do not know -- I would have to say that the testing issue for us is that we have been testing in a medical kind of way to confirm a diagnosis and we can document the course of the epidemic, but we haven't been doing the public health population-based testing that's necessary for us to change the course of the epidemic, and that population-based testing that nobody's been doing, and certainly not Georgia, would involve sampling the population symptomatic as well as asymptomatic.

So, the first problem is that if we're looking at hospitalizations, if we're looking at deaths, hospitalizations is a two-week-old picture. It's like a Polaroid picture that took two weeks to develop. That tells us what the infections were two weeks before. Deaths are a three or four-week-old picture. Without having any sense of how much virus there is in the community, we should not be opening up anything because the virus' only job is to spread.

Couple that with the fact that black and brown folks and native folks have been disproportionately infected. It's almost as if the governor and saying we're going to reopen right now, doesn't care about the lives of black and brown people. It's almost as if we're the canary in the mine. We're the first ones who have been impacted because, frankly, because of racism and how racism has structured our lives, put us in certain kinds of jobs, not given us the protection or the value, has made us sicker with chronic diseases.

[22:40:33] So, we're already disproportionately impacted, and it's almost as if,

when people understood that it was mostly -- that black and brown people were being disproportionately impacted they were like, oh, why are we going to stay inside our houses now? We want to get the economy back on track. It was almost as if they were stating that they didn't care about black and brown lives.

LEMON: It's interesting that when you -- as I lived in Atlanta, I have to run, doctor, though, because of time purposes. I enjoyed everything that you said. When I think about Atlanta, when I lived there, if I couldn't get a haircut on this corner, I could just go to the next corner and keep going.

And think about barber shops and beauty parlors and nail salons, mostly black entrepreneurial businesses in Atlanta. And those are the businesses that are opening up first. It's just -- it was surprising to me, and especially now -- I mean, we find out that Georgia more than 80 percent of people hospitalized for coronavirus patients were African-American.

And so, this is all just surprising to me that those are the businesses that are opening up first and now again black people will be affected more. Thank you so much for joining us. We will have you back. We appreciate it. And again, good reporting from the doctor and for Victor Blackwell as well. Thank you. We'll be right back.

JONES: Thank you.

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[22:45:00]

LEMON: CNN's Dianne Gallagher now with the toll meatpacking plants and the virus is taking on workers' health.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: President Donald Trump says that his latest move could save the food supply chain, but it is being done at the expense of the workers in those plants?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They're all gung-ho and we solved their problems.

GALLAGHER: Using the defense production act to compel meat processing plants to stay open. At least 22 plants have shut down at some point in the past two months.

TRUMP: They're big companies, but they're now being treated fairly. They're thrilled. And that whole bottleneck is broken up.

GALLAGHER: Now, Trump says he's protecting the plants.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who needs the protection are actually the workers, not the plants. GALLAGHER: According to the United Food and Commercial Workers Union,

at least 20 meatpacking and processing workers have died, more than 6,500 had been directly impacted by the virus, and they are overwhelmingly black and brown. Nearly two-thirds of these plant workers are people of color.

According to data from a 2016 government accountability office report and the new American economy, almost 30 percent of the food processing workforce is foreign-born noncitizen. Roughly half of meat processing and packaging workers are immigrants. The disparity of who is being affected in Waterloo, Iowa wasn't lost on its mayor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: African-American, Congolese, Bosnian, Burmese, so many Latino and so many people from different walks of life and immigrants that provide a critical service for help prepare food for the entire country and it hurts when it feels like your pleas to people falls on deaf ears.

GALLAGHER: Tyson Foods eventually suspended operations for cleaning and testing at the Waterloo plant last week. In Arkansas, a local poultry workers group attempted to deliver a petition asking Tyson to shut down two plants there for deep cleaning and give workers guaranteed paid sick leave.

GRACE MENG, SENIOR IMMIGRATION RESEARCHER, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: Yes, it is a huge threat for these workers. They are so vulnerable to covid- 19, and so they really feel every day before they go to work that they are -- they are leading them to the slaughter.

GALLAGHER: Tyson told CNN, quote, we believe in giving our employees a voice and provide various ways for them to report concerns without fear of retaliation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The population already was so afraid to speak out. And if that was true before the pandemic, now there is an executive order requiring these companies to stay open. You can just imagine the amount of fear there must be among the workers.

GALLAGHER: Smithfield foods, another meat processing company that's been forced to close several plants due to covid-19 outbreaks, is being sued in federal court by workers who allege that the conditions at a plant in Missouri are putting them at risk of contracting the virus.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just imagine that we have to go through a court system to get some kind of protection for the workers.

GALLAGHER: Watchdog groups and unions say that if the president wants to protect plant workers, he'd make the new CDC guidelines mandatory.

MENG: OSHA and CDC guidelines that have been issued should be more than guidelines, they should be enforceable. We should have inspections, we should have CDC and OSHA making clear that unless workers are protected these plants should not be allowed to operate.

(END VIDEOTAPE) LEMON: Dianne Gallagher, thank you. We'll be right back.

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[22:50:00]

LEMON: Malls closed, people staying at home, shopping online. Coronavirus may change the way America shops, and the impact could be permanent. Joining me now Derek Thompson, a staff writer at The Atlantic. Derek, good evening. Nobody knows what the new normal is going to look like. You have this new piece in The Atlantic and it says, the pandemic will change American retail forever. Tell us how.

DEREK THOMPSON, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: Well, I think it's going to accelerate some trends, interrupt some trends, and invent some trends. So, it'll invent some trends. So, for example, I think there's a lot of senior citizen who had never ordered groceries before online, who are falling in love with Instacart, that's an invention. It's interrupting some trends. I used to dine out at restaurants all the time. I no longer do. I really, really hope that I do in a year or two, so hopefully that's just an interruption.

But mostly what the pandemic is doing is accelerating trends that were already ongoing. So, for example take ecommerce. Ecommerce was about 13 percent, 15 percent of total retail. I think right now this year they're forecasting it to be 25 percent. So, it's going to grow by 10 points in just a few months. You look at something like the growth of restaurant delivery services. 2020 was already projected to be the year that we would order more from restaurants off premise, so take away and delivery, than we would spend inside restaurants.

[22:55:01]

Obviously that is going to happen, because restaurants are closed across the country. But that is not an invention so much as an acceleration. So, what I'm looking at here for the most part is, what is accelerating trends that preexisted the plague.

LEMON: And what about -- just quickly here if you will, Derek, the Simon Property Group which operates malls and shopping centers announcing that they are going to be operating 49 properties across 10 states on Friday offering customers masks and sanitizer. That's a good first step. But, I mean, who's going to want to try on a pair of jeans in the middle of a pandemic when people are touching it, you know what I mean?

THOMPSON: Absolutely. Yes. I think that it's wise for these companies to realize that you aren't going to get back to reopening the economy until you get back to reopening people's awareness that it's OK to walk outside and not get this covid disease. So, I think a lot of businesses, not just the malls but restaurants. You saw Jet Blue announce that people who fly Jet Blue are going to have to wear masks on the plane.

A lot of these companies are going to recognize that good public health is good business. And so, they're going to be broadcasting to people who might use their services. They're going to say look, if you come to us, you'll be safe. I think it's really important to give people that promise of safety as we emerge from our homes.

LEMON: Derrick, that thing in your kitchen that heats up that's called a stove, I think you've probably figured that out like a lot of people have in the last couple of months, because they're starting to cook. Everybody is living like a New Yorker now, they are getting delivery, they are ordering it in, and so on and so forth.

Derek, thank you, we appreciate you joining us. It's a great piece in The Atlantic. Thank you. Please come back.

THOMPSON: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you. We'll be right back.

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