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Don Lemon Tonight

A Glimmer Of Hope For COVID Victims; White House Launches Operation Warp Speed; Flaws Found In Antibody Tests; President Trump Downplays Need For Expanded Testing, Says 'I Don't Know That All Of That's Even Necessary'; "Tampa Bay Times:" Florida Officials Asked State's Medical Examiners To Withhold Coronavirus Death Figures; Georgia Business Owners Allowed To Reopen Striking Balance Between Making Money And Staying Healthy. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired April 29, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

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DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Eleven p.m. on the East Coast. We've got the latest on the coronavirus for you. Now there are 1,038,000 cases in the United States. The death toll from the virus in this country now has surpassed 60,000. Worldwide, nearly 3.2 million cases and more than 225,000 deaths.

Dr. Anthony Fauci expressing optimism today about a study of the antiviral drug Remdesivir saying the data shows the drug has, quote, "a clear cut significant positive effect in speeding up recovery from the virus."

Tonight, a source at the White House telling CNN the Trump administration is launching a project called Operation Warp Speed to accelerate the development of a potential vaccine. The project's goal is to have one available by the end of the year.

No vaccine has been created yet, though multiple projects are in the works around the world.

And president Trump saying we'll see social distancing guidelines fading out as states begin to reopen, despite warnings from medical experts that the coronavirus cases will spike if states reopen too soon.

Joining me now, White House correspondent John Harwood, and our resident fact checker Daniel Dale, regulars on this program, and we're always happy to have them. Good evening.

John, Reuters is reporting tonight that president Trump said in an interview today that he believes China's handling of coronavirus is proof that Beijing will do anything they can to make him lose in November. Is he suggesting that they wanted there to be a global pandemic that would cost more than 227,000 lives all because of him?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think that's what he's trying to suggest. Look, President Trump has been shaken as our colleague Jeremy Diamond has been reporting this evening by the very bad poll numbers he's been presented. He would lose the election to Joe Biden if it were held today.

And he's looking for some way to deflect responsibility for his political situation. He's been saying multiple times in recent days that China is responsible for the situation that we're in as opposed to how he has managed the pandemic.

And by then saying well, this is happening because China wants me to lose the election. That's in effect an attempt to try to create a story that is the analog to 2016 and Russia was trying to help Donald Trump win.

Now he's trying to say China is trying to help Joe Biden win and see if he can sell that argument. It's -- it is not an effective rebuttal to his own handling of this situation, but it's something that he appears to want to try.

LEMON: More than 1,037,000 cases of coronavirus in the U.S., more than 60,000 deaths. And President Trump is saying tonight this virus is going away and talking about 25,000-person rallies. He still doesn't seem to get the nature of what this virus does and how dangerous it is.

HARWOOD: Don, more than most people Donald Trump is trapped inside his own head. And so, he understands that he's in trouble now and he's thinking back to just a few months ago I had this great economy.

Just a few months ago, I was going to see Alabama play LSU and there were 100 -- 100,000 people there and they were cheering me. Just a short while ago, I was able to have these big rallies and had cheering crowds. And he's kind of wishfully wishing that he could put himself back in that situation now describing it kind of an aspiration.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: He's like the middle-aged high school former high school quarterback like, you know, romanticizing his high school years, saying, man, when I was in high school --

(CROSSTALK)

HARWOOD: Glory days was the Bruce Springsteen song about that. But it's aspirational in the sense that we all remember he was talking about opening the country at Easter.

LEMON: Yes.

HARWOOD: Of course, he didn't do it. Said it was an aspirational goal. That -- this does not appear any more realistic than that, the idea that any time soon he's going to have rallies with 25,000 people.

[23:05:03]

But that doesn't mean he may not at some point try to make it happen. LEMON: Daniel, President Trump continues to pretend thing isn't a

problem in the United States. What are the facts?

DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: Don, we've heard for weeks from everyone from public health experts to Republican governors to corporate executives that a significant increase in the quantity of tests conducted is necessary both to slow the spread of the virus and to safely reopen the economy.

But the president keeps suggesting and especially has in recent days suggested that even talking about testing is some of media or partisan conspiracy to damage him. He's described it as a media trap and a media dream.

And I thought something really interested happened at his second event of the day today. He was at a round table of corporate executives and he said that no one should be talking about testing. And then a little bit later at the same event, Chris Nassetta, the CEO of Hilton, the hotel chain, made his own comments. And listen to those comments back to back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: You don't hear about ventilators, you don't hear about masks, and you shouldn't be hearing about testing but that's the last thing they can complain about, I guess. You know, if we do, if we do two million tests, they said how come you didn't do three?

CHRIS NASSETTA, CEO, HILTON: Our customers are saying they're looking for the government, the state and federal government to focus on testing so that hay understand, you know, what real mortality rates are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So --

DALE: So, this wasn't like --

LEMON: Go on, Daniel. I'm sorry.

DALE: I'm sorry. I'm just going to say, so this wasn't like a reporter, you know, getting in the president's face and saying you're wrong, fact check. But effectively and unsubtly, if not confrontationally, the CEO of a major company was making clear that what the president is saying is just nonsense.

LEMON: I want you to listen to this, too, Daniel, what the president said today about reopening the economy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I had one restaurant owner come up to me and said, sir, you know, I'm going to be opening up. But if I distance too much, I have 50 percent of the restaurant I'll have. I said and you'll also have a worse atmosphere. We want to back where we can have -- we want it to be the way it was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What's the deal with these sir stories again?

DALE: So I can't tell you that this particular story is made up, but I can tell you that the president has a long history of telling stories in which an unnamed man, it's usually a man, comes up to him and calls him "sir."

And in my fact checking experience doing this for three plus years now, almost always when he tells a sir story, something in that story if not the whole story is significantly inaccurate.

LEMON: Thank you, all. John, by the way, I had a friend that was a big baseball player back in high school. Though that speed ball body make you feel like a fool. You know that's glory days. You made me think about that.

HARWOOD: Yes.

LEMON: You made me think about that song. Thank you, gentleman. I appreciate it. Need a little laugh now and then especially lately.

I want to bring in now Dr. Jonathan Reiner. He is a co-director of the Cardiac Catherization Program at George Washington Hospital, University Hospital.

You know that song, John. Good evening to you. Thank you so much. Dr. Reiner, I should say.

JONATHAN REINER, CARDIOLOGIST, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL: That's Bruce Springsteen.

LEMON: I appreciate you joining us, sir, this evening. So, let's talk about this. Dr. Fauci putting his credibility on the line today saying data shows that Remdesivir has a significant positive effect in treating coronavirus. And you say this is a big moment for science. Explain that, please.

REINER: Yes. I think it's -- today was a hopeful day. And we've had so many days that seem so dark and so long. I mean, these last two months have seemed like five years. Today was a day I think filled with hope.

And I watched Dr. Fauci who at 79 looked like he was 35 today. When I was a medical student in the early 1980s, this new disease came on the horizon affecting primarily young men in places like New York and San Francisco and started killing them. And for seven years there was nothing to treat them with.

And then in 1987 the first effective antiviral drug AZT came on the market and that was a tide changer. And Dr. Fauci mentioned that today. And I think this was sort of a similar moment.

This was the first time we've identified a compound that has real identifiable antiviral activity. So, I feel like we've been on the defensive for the last few months really getting pummeled in places like New York. And I feel like today we sort of look like now we're going to go on the offensive --

LEMON: But listen

REINER: -- now that we have some promise.

LEMON: This is some promise, but just --

REINER: Yes.

LEMON: -- everyone cautions this is not the end-all be-all drug. This just -- this is something that you can build upon. It's the first thing that actually works on the virus, correct?

REINER: Right. Totally. And what we know about this, this shortens the time to recovery. This trial was not really powered to look at a mortality reduction. It wasn't a large enough trial to do that, but it almost did.

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It almost reached statistical significance with about a 27 percent reduction in mortality. We'll see how that pans out when the trial is finally published and fully adjudicated and we'll see what other studies show.

But, look, really, result are concordant and it really do suggest that in patients treated with Remdesivir, outcomes are better. So, this is the first.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: And not a vaccine? Not a vaccine, right?

REINER: This is not a vaccine. This is an antiviral. This is a therapeutic for people who have the disease.

LEMON: Yes. Yes. I just want to make that clear for the audience that this is not some magic bullet.

REINER: Yes.

LEMON: Again, it is very promising and for some like Dr. Fauci and for all of the doctors to come on and say, this is something. It gives you a direction to go in. Because you see where the virus works, you know, at least what effect it has on the virus.

So, let's hope it works out. Let's hope they find something, you know, find something better after this.

REINER: Right.

LEMON: As states begin to consider reopening, I mean, many are focusing on a regular, a figure -- excuse me. It's called R naught, right -- REINER: Right.

LEMON: -- which shows how much the virus is spreading in a population. So, explain what is this. How does this work?

REINER: The R naught is basically the reproductive coefficient for the virus. It's basically a number that we use to suggest how infectious the virus is. And it's affected by a few things. It's affected by how intrinsically contagious the virus is. It's affected by how long a virus stays contagious in the host.

And it's also affected by something that is really not a biological process. It's affected by how often the virus encounters a new vulnerable host. And that is what we've been affecting by social distancing. By reducing the opportunity for an infected person to transmit the virus to a non-infected person, we've been able to reduce the R naught.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: So, OK. Can you -- can you break it down even -- just simplify it even more for. This is 101, OK, right?

REINER: OK.

LEMON: So, if R naught is one, it means that they've infected one other person?

REINER: Right. So, when this virus first started to burn through our cities, the R naught was over two which meant that the index person passed the virus on to two people and those two people each passed the virus on to two people, so that's four people. And you can see how you can go from one person infected with the virus in late January to a million people infected just a few months later.

LEMON: Got it.

REINER: So, when the -- when you employ social distancing and you start to create these fire breaks such that when a person who is infected doesn't encounter someone who he can or she can pass the virus on to, the reproductive ability drops.

And once it drops below one, that's when you really start -- can start to contain the virus. It's finally dropped below one in places like New York. In Wuhan, it's now down to about .3.

So, by social distancing, by doing the things that we've done so successfully, we can continue to drop the R naught, reduce the really infective ability of the virus. And that's how we get back to more of a normal society. I'm not saying normal. To more of a normal society by continuing to do what we're doing in places where the virus is still active.

LEMON: Got it. I want you to, doctor, take a look at this map of the coronavirus cases. This is the coronavirus cases in New York over 14 days. Why do you think we're seeing this plateau in cases? REINER: Well, what we've done is we've flattened the curve. And it's

going to take a long time to come down. The upswing in infection in this country was very steep, and I think a lot of people hope that the down side of the curve would be just as steep.

But what social distancing has done, it has spread out the back end over a longer period of time. It will -- unless we backtrack, and there are unfortunate precedents in this world for that, unless we backtrack, it will continue to go down.

The Japanese island of Hokkaido with about five million people enacted very severe social distancing after the virus came to Hokkaido at the end of February. When they loosened it on March 18th, the virus came back. And they've recently reinstituted social distancing. So, if you let go of some of the smart things you're doing, the virus can come back.

LEMON: Dr. Reiner, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

REINER: My pleasure.

LEMON: Now I want to get to CNN's Erica Hill with the latest on states' plans to reopen.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR & CORRESPONDENT: Florida ready to reopen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

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GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): There is a light at the end of the tunnel. This new phase will start on Monday, May 4th, and will, for the time being, exclude Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties.

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HILL: Nearly 30 percent of the state's residents including hard-hit Miami-Dade County excluded from the governor's plan giving restaurants and businesses the green light.

Haircuts in Georgia, one of the first signs of that state's reopening while in California any professional trims are still months away. A striking example of just how different the next steps will be.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JARED POLIS (D-CO): We have significantly less cases than we had two weeks ago, than we had three weeks ago. But it's time to enter a more sustainable phase.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: More than half the states in the country announcing plans to ease restrictions. Despite none appearing to meet White House guidelines for a 14-day decline in positive cases. Meantime, new hope for a treatment. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Remdesivir has a clear-cut significant positive effect in diminishing the time to recovery. A drug can block this virus.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: The next big retail experiment comes on Friday when three dozen Simon-owned malls and shopping centers will reopen in eight states. Restaurants in Georgia and Tennessee welcoming diners.

Yet it's not clear Americans are ready for these changes. New polling shows eight in ten think opening restaurants for on-site dining is a bad idea. Nearly two-thirds say the same about returning to work without further testing. Eighty-five percent say students shouldn't go back to school without more testing. When they do return, it's likely to look much different.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): It's not back to normal. It's modified. That means potentially staggering school times for different cohorts of kids. It means the recess period being radically modified. It means cafeteria being shut down and people getting food around their desks, deep sanitation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: The economy continuing to take a hit. First quarter GDP down nearly five percent. The president using the Defense Production Act to keep the country's meat processing plants open. More than 20 facilities have closed over the past two months because of positive cases. At least 20 workers have died according to the union representing many of them.

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KIM CORDOVA, PRESIDENT, UNITED FOOD AND COMMONWEALTH WORKERS UNION, LOCAL CHAPTER 7: Absolutely critical and essential to the food supply chain. You have to protect them.

TOM VILSACK, FORMER U.S. SECRATRY OF AGRICULTURE: It may slow the line down a bit. It may require them to expend some resources for protective equipment and for other safety measures. But at the end of the day this is essential work for the country and these are essential workers and they deserve adequate protection.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: In some states, employees who choose not to return may lose government benefits.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. KIM REYNOLDS (R-IA): It's a voluntary quit. And so, therefore they would not be eligible for the unemployment, the unemployment money.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Farmers unable to process their livestock creating a damaging ripple effect as the need for food assistance skyrockets.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're alone. You know, even my neighbor, you know, she's alone too. So, that's why we appreciate it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's an experience. You know, the kids, it's hard for them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Lines stretching for miles. Many Americans turning to food banks for the first time in their lives.

In Little Rock, a planned four-hour food distribution ran out in just an hour, each box offering families the equivalent of 40 meals.

Erica Hill, CNN, New York.

LEMON: People across the country are clamoring for antibody tests for the coronavirus. But researchers say some tests have, quote, "really terrible accuracy." Can we count on them? I'm going to ask an expert, next.

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LEMON: States across the country announcing plans to ramp up testing for coronavirus antibodies which show whether someone's already had the virus. But one study is shedding light on just how unreliable those tests are. One researcher saying the accuracy of some antibody tests in his words, in her words, I should say, really terrible.

Here to discuss, Alexander Marson and Patrick Hsu. Two authors of the report. Good to see both of you. Thank you so much for joining. Alexander, I'm going to start with you. So, walk us through what you have found out about how effective these tests really are.

ALEXANDER MARSON, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF MICROBIOLOGY & IMMUNOLOGY, UCSF: Yes, so let me just start by framing this a little bit. I understand that everyone feels the urgency to have a clear-cut answer and wants to know whether these tests can tell us who is immune and who is safe from reinfection.

The fact of the matter is that these tests became available very rapidly in response to a crisis. And now we're just going through the steps and we started by just testing the tests.

The first set of tests is really to just tell us do these reliably tell us if somebody who has been infected has antibodies in their blood. Then we'll have to do further studies to see if they're actually protected from reinfection. What we saw is when we go and test the test, we actually see a range. Some seem promising and some seem less promising.

LEMON: Patrick, so, of the 12 antibody tests that you studied, one gave false positives more than 15 percent of the time and three more than 10 percent of the time. Why are false positives so dangerous?

PATRICK HSU, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF BIOENGINEERING, U.C. BERKELEY: We conducted this study because we realized there were over 100 antibody tests on the market, yet there had not yet been a systematic and rigorous test performance evaluation of how their sensitivity and specificity would look.

So, that's exactly what we set out to do in this work. I think the importance of a very specific test really can come in several use cases.

For example, in clinical diagnosis, if you go into a hospital and you feel ill but you've gone in several days or a week after the beginning of illness, that's really when these molecular tests can be less sensitive. And antibody tests can be much more accurate.

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However, during this time if you get a false positive it's really important that people don't think that because they have a positive antibody test they've already been exposed to the virus and that they can go back and start to, you know, mingle with people and not socially distance.

It's really important to realize that there's no evidence that a positive antibody test necessarily means that you have protective immunity. Right? We, and many researchers around the world, are just trying to connect those dots. And there's a lot of intense work to try to understand that.

LEMON: One more, let me follow up, Patrick here, because and the accuracy and the results were even worse for samples from patients known to have had coronavirus. In other words, you tested people who you knew had coronavirus and the tests still weren't accurate.

HSU: So, the samples that we used where we had both positive and negative samples in the study. The positive samples were taken from PCR positive patients that had been seen in San Francisco hospitals.

And three weeks out after the beginning of symptoms, we saw it in seven out of ten of these lateral flow acids, these rapid serology tests they were over 90 percent positive.

For the negative samples we took them from blood donors that gave blood before August 2018th. So, these would be true negative samples from before the COVID-19 outbreak.

So, in that case we found at least three tests that were over 98 percent specific, whereas others had high false negatives. I think that really highlights the importance of our work, that we need to do rigorous and systematic validation of these tests before it can be rolled out widely.

LEMON: Alexander, I see you shaking your head. Because on top of an inaccurate antibody test, health experts say that we don't even know how long immunity lasts. I mean, how does this huge knowledge gaps with antibodies affect our ability to reopen, you know, if we want to reopen the economy and businesses and so on? How does this affect the ability to do that?

MARSON: I think that we're racing at an incredible speed to answer questions that are just going to take time. We're going to need systematic studies starting with this to try to get reliable tests and then further tests which are starting now.

They're happening quickly. People are racing to come together in collaborations to ask the next steps. Do the antibodies actually protect cells from virus, and then most importantly, will be the studies among people to see if people who have antibodies are actually protected from reinfection. We'll get those answers. It's just going to take some time and rigorous study.

LEMON: It's very interesting conversation, Alexander and Patrick. Really great. Thank you so much. I appreciate your time.

HSU: Thanks for having me.

LEMON: Absolutely.

MARSON: Don, thank you very much.

LEMON: Experts say that the U.S. would have to conduct five million tests a day by early June to reopen safely. President Trump said yesterday the country could do that before claiming today he never said it. We're going to get down to the truth about testing, next.

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LEMON: President Trump tonight contradicting his own administration's guidance on testing, claiming widespread testing isn't necessary as states move to reopen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Some astonishing numbers. I don't know that all of that is even necessary. You have some governors that love the tests. You have others that like doing it at a different way, an old-fashioned way with some testing. But we are going maximum testing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, here with the truth about testing, CNN's Drew Griffin. Drew, good evening to you. You have been following testing from the very beginning. Have you spoken with anyone who agrees with that?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Well, just to define what we are talking about, I think he is saying that some governors are saying that they like it doing it the old-fashioned way with just not a lot of testing. No, I haven't heard anybody that agrees with that.

Everything that I am hearing is that we need to test more and more people so we know where this virus is, how to find these people, and how to contain the virus. So the answer is no. And the other answer is I'm really not sure if I understood what he was saying, Don.

LEMON: From your understanding, the answer is no. So listen, President Trump is trying to back track a separate claim about testing. I want you to listen. This is what he said yesterday, and then today. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're saying that you are confident you could surpass five million tests per day? Is that --

D. TRUMP: Well, we're going to be there very soon. Somebody started throwing on five million. I didn't say five million. Somebody said five million. I think it might have been the Harvard report. There was a report from Harvard, and they said five million.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Well, you were asked about it and you said we will be there very soon.

D. TRUMP: Well, we will be there, but I didn't say it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So --

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: -- break it down for us. How many tests do we need, Drew?

GRIFFIN: Well, it all depends on what you want to do. The five million tests per day is a study that came up by Harvard and it's actually five to 20 million tests per day based on what kind of containment we want to have. They want to test as many people as we possibly can, send around the trackers to track them down, make sure we know where this virus is. That is a target figure.

Mr. Trump may have been backtracking on that because he got word that it is just almost impossible to do that kind of test. His own at the Health and Human Services Department, the person in charge of testing, Brett Giroir, told Time magazine, I'll put up a quote here, "There is absolutely no way on earth or this planet or any other planet, that we do 20 million tests a day or even five million tests a day."

[23:35:00] GRIFFIN: That's what he told Time magazine. Listen, the fact is the president did say we could do five million and we are going to get the five million. Now, he is learning we can't get to five million, so I guess he is backtracking on that. Would it be nice to do five million tests today? It would. We are only doing about 200,000.

So, you know, it's really out of the question to even talk about it at this time. If we doubled testing right now, we would get to 400,000, 500,000 a day. Those are good numbers to at least know we're testing everybody who needs a test. But, Don, again, these numbers are all over the map.

To test the kind of test we want, testing people going back to work to make sure they are safe, you're in the millions a day, and that's a big, big number to achieve given where we are.

LEMON: Yeah. Listen, testing in short supply still. Now, we're learning -- we're hearing that he may never -- that we may never be able to meet the demand. So, what do you know?

GRIFFIN: Yeah, that's exactly the problem. I think this is where reality is kind of coming to grips with this administration. The supply line problems that we've been talking about on this show, Don, for a month and a half are not fixed. The capacity problems at big labs, although they're increasing, you're not seeing these huge leaps in increasing amounts that we would need to get anywhere near five million tests a day.

So, just the whole world cannot test this much and compete for this many resources at the same time. It's not achievable. I don't know what the answer is. I know these models are coming out saying we need to test five to 20 million people a day in the United States. I don't know how you get enough resources together to do that. Right now, as I said, we're struggling to do 200,000 a day.

LEMON: Drew Griffin, appreciate it. Once again, thank you so much.

GRIFFIN: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Tampa Bay Times is reporting Florida officials have stopped medical examiners from releasing their count of coronavirus deaths and that's leading to questions about how complete the state's own tally actually is.

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[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The state of Florida is responding to reports of discrepancies in the tally of deaths caused by COVID-19. That as Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is announcing plans to reopen his state.

So let's get right to CNN's Randi Kaye with more. Randy, this is fascinating story here. The Tampa Bay Times is reporting that state officials blocked a list of COVID-19 death totals kept by Florida's 22 medical examiners from being released publicly, and that those numbers could actually be 10 percent higher than the health department's list. What is the Department of Health saying now?

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, let me just point out that the county medical examiners, Don, have been keeping lists like these apparently for decades. They do this during crisis time. They've always made those lists public until now.

So the state Department of Health is saying no more, you cannot release this list and you cannot release this information anymore. The state, according to the newspaper, wants to review the list, maybe even redact some of what's on that list. The paper also says that the state wants to remove the cause of death and the case descriptions.

So, CNN reached out to all the parties involved, the Department of Health, the governor's office, the medical examiners' commission.

My colleague, Rosa Flores heard back from the Department of Health and they say that they are just following CDC guidelines in terms of how they report deaths in the state.

In a statement to CNN, the Department of Health said this, "Per CDC, people are listed according to their place of residence. This ensures cases are not inadvertently listed twice."

So, for an example, Don, if a New Yorker comes down to Florida and dies from coronavirus in Florida, Florida's Department of Health would not record that as a Florida death. They say that would be a New York death because, of course, the person was from New York.

The medical examiners count every death there for the county no matter where the person is from, no matter where their residence is. So, it's going to be interesting to see how or if these numbers will

possibly sync up because you have the county officials counting every death and then you have the Department of Health counting only residents, not visitors, not snowbirds who come down here for the winter months.

So, once again, the Florida Department of Health responding to that Tampa Bay Times report saying that reporting deaths by residency, Don, is the appropriate method.

LEMON: All right. Interesting on that one. OK. So, Governor DeSantis also announcing his state's reopening plan today. Notably absent from phase one, the three largest counties in the state, one which includes the city of Miami. Tell us about this plan.

KAYE: Right. So, the plan is going to be that the state will reopen except for those three counties on May 4th. This is phase one of his reopening plan. And as you said, the governor's plan -- he says that he's reopening the state of Florida.

But what he's not reopening are the largest counties and the most populous area. Those areas, those counties, make up about 30 percent of the state's population, more than six million people. So, all of those people will still be under a stay-at-home order.

Meanwhile, here's what is reopening around the state, Don. You have restaurants. They're allowing outdoor seating as long as the tables are six feet apart. They're also allowing indoor seating at 25 percent capacity. The retail stores will be open with 25 percent capacity.

[23:45:02]

KAYE: Elective surgeries can resume. Golf courses are open as long as you take your own golf cart and you social distance. The community pools will be open. Many things will remain closed, Don, around the state. Movie theaters, gyms, salons, spas, dog parks, skate parks, nursing homes still no visitors. Schools will remain closed.

But meanwhile, today, Don, I have to tell you, at this press conference with the governor, he spent about the first 20 minutes taking what you might call a victory lap. In those 20 minutes, he went on to blame the experts, to criticize the media for painting a direr picture of what might happen in Florida than what really did happen. He used graphics. He used newspaper headlines. He touted what he seemed to consider very low numbers here in Florida. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): Facts should be comforting. We've done much better than everybody said we would do, and we're going to continue to apply fact-based, data-driven approach to the problems that are before us. Saying Florida was going to be like New York was wrong, and people need to know it was wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: So, the governor was quick to point out that despite these predictions, despite the fact that there were headlines that said Florida will be the next New York or the "uber-Italy" as one headline read, the state did not reach hospital bed capacity, the governor was quick to point out.

He also said that Florida has more than 6,000 ventilators that are standing by idle that have not needed to be used luckily. So, the victory lap today and I'm sure, Don, this victory lap will continue as his new plan rolls out and Florida begins to officially reopen on May 4, Don.

LEMON: They should say thank you New York for the social distancing and it works. Every doctor, every expert says social distancing works. So, that's should be the first thing out of his mouth. Thank you, Randi. Appreciate it.

Some businesses reopening in Georgia over the last few days, but are the customers there? I'm going to speak with an Alpharetta, Georgia business owner that is right outside of Atlanta who is reopening. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [23:50:00]

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LEMON: Certain businesses in Georgia are now allowed to reopen. But many business owners are weary, striking a balance between the need to make money and stay healthy. Joining me now is Jenna Cao, the owner of Chateau de Nails in Alpharetta, Georgia. I love the name, Jenna. That's a great name. Thank you so much.

You wrote a piece in New York Times, "Why I'm Reopening My Georgia Nail Salon." Jenna, again, I love the name of the salon. Governor Kemp announced that the salons could open last week. You opened because you had customers who wanted to come back to your salon.

JENNA CAO, OWNER, CHATEAU DE NAILS: Yes. I -- originally, I was going to hold out, but when Governor Kemp had made the announcement, my phone blew up. I mean, it was just calls after calls. You know, clients trying to get in and book because they're stir crazy and they're trying to get in.

LEMON: You were careful when you first reopened because appointment- only customers and you know and trust. But now, there -- you know, is there still enough demand to keep you going?

CAO: There's not enough demand. We're still working off of clients that we do know, our regular clients. There are not a whole lot of walk-ins and on regular days, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, we're not getting much calls at all. People are still scared.

I have reached out to our client base just to let them know, hey, we are open with precautions. And a lot of them had told me, you know what, Jenna, I'm just going to hold out for a while longer, I'm really scared, I can't leave. Either their husband is sick at home or they have a daughter that has asthma. You know, for whatever reason, they just can't take the risk.

LEMON: Can you blame them?

CAO: I don't blame them. Even for myself, I'm scared to work, as well.

LEMON: It's -- you are scared to work but yet you reopen. Tell me because that's a delicate balance. I'm sure you need to take -- you know, you need to handle your business but you're also concerned about your health.

CAO: I am trying to maintain the business. You know, I don't really know what the right thing to do. You know, my family is really upset that I am opening because they just feel like I'm putting everyone at risk. But, at the same time, you know, I have to -- I have bills that I have to pay. You know, my landlord still wants to be satisfied. They want rent to be paid. I just have to maintain my lifestyle and everybody else that, you know, I owe to.

LEMON: The Georgia State Board of Cosmetology and Barbers guidelines on reopening include employees wearing masks, considering providing masks to clients, consider using face shields, gloves, smocks, et cetera. Items should be disinfected and disposed between clients, hand washing between clients, arrive in clean clothes and change clothes before leaving. I mean, Jenna, you're doing all of this? And even more?

CAO: Yes. We're also taking temperatures as they come in. Making them sign not a contract but an agreement if they get sick within two weeks of visiting us for them to give us a call so that we know how to handle the situation if, you know, they did get the virus. That way, you know, we could be at risk as well.

LEMON: What do you think you are going to do? Because you said that business is not good. Do you think you'll end up closing?

[23:55:00]

CAO: Closing -- I'm not open every day. I'm opening only on an as- needed basis until this thing progresses. Then I will -- when there's more demand, then I will extend my hours and days.

LEMON: It's really a tough position that you guys are in there, isn't it?

CAO: Yeah. It's horrible. And my staff, too, you know, we can't get unemployment for them because they're 1099 workers. So, you know, they're just sitting. They're scared. They're scared to come to work, but they're also, you know, need to feed their families and put food on the table.

LEMON: Yeah. What an odd position that we're all in. Thank you so much, Jenna. Good luck to you. Thanks. Be safe. OK? Please.

CAO: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you. Thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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