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Don Lemon Tonight

More Than 30 States Move to Ease Social Distancing Restrictions and Allow Business to Reopen; V.P. Pence Says He Should Have Worn a Mask at the Mayo Clinic; CA Gov. Newsom Orders Orange County Beaches Closed Due to Coronavirus; More States Loosen Restrictions As Death Toll Rises; Oxford University Researcher Says They'll Know By June Whether Vaccine Will Work; No Charges Filed More Than Two Months After Ahmaud Arbery Was Shot And Killed In Georgia Neighborhood. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired May 03, 2020 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN NEWS HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon, 9 p.m. on the East Coast, and we've got the latest on the Coronavirus pandemic for you. There are now more than 1.1 million cases of Coronavirus in the United States and more than 67,000 deaths. Worldwide, more than 3.5 million cases and more than 240,000 deaths. Today is the first Sunday in May -- in May, and it's a beautiful spring day in many parts of the country. And that means millions of Americans spent the day outdoors.

More than 30 states have started easing some social distancing restrictions, ranging from reopening parks and beaches, to allowing certain businesses to reopen their doors to customers, and that has medical experts worried quite frankly. They fear that loosening -- that loosening stay-at-home orders or states moving too soon to reopen, may result in a spike in numbers of cases of Coronavirus and a rise in the national death toll from the disease.

Joining me now is our White House correspondent, John Harwood and our resident fact-checker, Daniel Dale. Hello, Daniel. Hello, John. So, John, tonight, President Trump is acknowledging that the Coronavirus death toll is rising rapidly in this country. He's now predicting up to 90,000 deaths, 67,000 people have already died in the U.S., cases are rising in many states. So, why is the President still encouraging states to reopen and talking about massive rallies before the election?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Don, I think the reality is that President Trump has been overwhelmed by this crisis, as a matter of public health, as a matter of management, as a matter of leadership. And it feels like at this point, he's kind of throwing up his hands and hoping that science and governors and others are going to solve this problem for him. So, he issues guidelines for reopening states, but then doesn't really do much when states don't follow the guidelines. And I think he is leaning on the idea that before all this happened, the good economy was my strong asset. And so, by exceeding to the idea of opening, whatever the situation on the ground is with Coronavirus, he's hoping to sort of pull back some of that magic with these poll numbers which are sagging. And in the meantime, just blaming other people.

He did this town hall on FOX News Tonight at the Lincoln Memorial and spent much of the time blaming other people for previous mistakes, complaining that his press coverage was so bad. He said in the shadow of Abraham Lincoln, I've been treated worse than Lincoln was.

LEMON: Hoof. Wow. OK. So, Daniel, take that in. Take a listen to what the President said on that, on FOX News, about his response to the Coronavirus. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What I did is I -- way early, I closed our country to China. Nancy Pelosi was a month later saying it's going to pass. Everybody, even Tony Fauci was saying it's going to pass, not going to be a big deal. Schumer was talking about all sorts of that. This is long after I close the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So, I'm going to -- the truth is, Schumer and Nancy Pelosi are both not the President of the United States, Daniel. But anyway, give us the truth on that. Go on.

DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: In addition to that, this claim is comprehensively inaccurate. So, as I've said in your program before, Don, Trump's travel restrictions on China were not him closing the country to China, those restrictions contain significant exemptions for citizens, permanent residents and many of the family members of both groups.

In addition, Dr. Fauci didn't say this is no big deal or this is going to pass. What he did say in an interview on NBC in late February, was that people didn't yet need to change their habits. He said right now the risk is still low, but then he added right away this could change. I said that many times. You got to watch out. He said this could be a major outbreak. Pelosi, meanwhile, did go to Chinatown, in February, in San Francisco, and urged people to visit. But she also didn't say this is no big deal or this will pass.

What she said, I have the quote in front of me, is prevention, prevention prevention. We want people to be concerned and vigilant. However, we don't want them to be afraid.

[21:05:10]

So, you can criticize both of them for not taking it seriously, enough of that point. That's fair game, but they didn't say it's no big deal or it's going to go away quickly. LEMON: OK. So, she said something and you know, all right, he clarified it. But what does that have to do with him? What is -- what is -- John, what is -- what Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer says, have to do with the President of the United States? What does that have to do with him?

HARWOOD: What it has to do with him, Don, is that he is desperate to avoid blame for this situation. He can see that in the polling, all the governors handling this have higher ratings than he does. He got a brief bounce when the country sort of rallied around him when we went into lockdown, that has faded. He's trailing Joe Biden in a key battleground states for reelection, and he is exerting extraordinary effort to try to make sure that he's not blamed.

So, he suggested there that Tony Fauci was downplaying it, or I didn't get the intelligence briefing until January the 23rd. Well, we know through reporting of our CNN colleagues that both the CDC was notified by China on January 3rd -- the 3rd, and beginning on January the 3rd, this was included in the President's intelligence briefings. Maybe he didn't read the briefings. But the President has consistently downplayed this, all of that is on record, and he is --

LEMON: Yes, I've got --

HARWOOD: -- squirming to try to avoid that verdict by the public.

LEMON: I've got to get this question to Daniel. But again, neither of the people he mentioned are -- none of the people he mentioned, a president of the United States. He -- the buck stops with him. Daniel, tonight, the President retweeted a claim that President Barack Obama was behind what he calls the Russian hoax. Clearly, It is a huge distraction. He's also completely false here, is completely wrong. It's a conspiracy theory. Give me the facts, please.

DALE: It is. I mean, I barely want to -- want to tell you who this came from, it's such a bad source. I'll tell you how the article began. This is the article the President retweeted. It said, in the new releases, it appears to be saying that operation hurricane was being run from the Oval Office. This would be huge if true. So, even this very bad source didn't say that Obama was running this operation.

This person was casting aspersions, trying to create doubt blame something on Obama, and the president who is interested in headlines and interesting and fostering confusion himself, didn't care what it actually said, and put it out there himself, as he does. So, no, there continues to be no evidence that Obama was behind some anti-Trump, investigatory conspiracy. The sources are very bad. This is all just nonsense again.

LEMON: Wow. This is so embarrassing. Wow. It's just -- you -- I'm embarrassed. Just embarrassing. Thank you both. Appreciate it. I want to get to Dr. Ashish Jha now. He is the director of the Harvard Global Health Institute. Doctor, appreciate you joining us. I want you to take a listen to what the vice president just said. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The CDC has made it clear that you were a mask to prevent you from conveying the Coronavirus to other people. And since the President and I are in the unique positions we're in, we're tested often.

BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS CHANNEL CHIEF POLITICAL ANCHOR: You should point out we're tested as well. That's why we're here without a mask as well.

PENCE: Well, I didn't think it was necessary. But I should have worn the mask at the Mayo Clinic. And I wore it when I visited the ventilator plant in Indiana. And I think it's a -- it really is a statement about the American people, the way people have been willing to step forward, practice social distancing. wear masks in settings where they can't do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So, Doctor, I'm going to -- I'm going to save the political questions for the political pundits that I have on, but there were so many excuses made for the Vice President, by the people around him and all of the supporters, and on and on and on, and on and on even himself, but as a doctor, it seems that he has gotten the message. You think he's gotten the message?

DR. ASHISH JHA, DIRECTOR, HARVARD GLOBAL HEALTH INSTITUTE: Yes. So, thanks for having me on, Don. A couple of things. First of all, yes, like, he's, this is great. This is what leadership is about. It's about acknowledging mistakes. And I think he's acknowledging that he should have worn a mask and he should have worn a mask. You know, the second part --

LEMON: Can I ask you something, Doctor, really quickly, before you go into the rest of your question, just that something, and who knows, because I may be put in that position, and this is an -- this is an honest, earnest question.

So, you saw them all sitting there, they were -- if we're sitting there and I'm -- and I'm being put in that position, as an interviewer, should they have been wearing masks on that stage? And I'm not judging them because I don't know. Should those folks have been wearing masks up there?

JHA: I think they should. I think we need to understand that wearing masks is going to be -- is going to have to become the new norm. You know, what I think is really interesting, Don, I was going to say is, one of the things the Vice President said as well. You know, the President and I are tested regularly, sow we know we're safe. And my thought was --

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LEMON: The interviewer said the same thing. The interviewer said we were all tested. That's the reason I asked. I never would have thought about it if the interviewer had not said, we're all tested. That's why we're all sitting here without wearing masks. But go on. I'm sorry for interrupting.

JHA: Right. And my question is, how do the rest of the American people get some of that? Like, why can't all of us be tested regularly? Like, why do they keep saying there's enough tests for you guys, but we need to be tested regularly. I think all Americans would love to be able to get tested regularly. So, that's the other part of this that to me is ironic. They get the value of testing. They just don't think it's good enough for the rest of us.

LEMON: Interesting. I never thought about that. But again, I'm not judging the folks sitting up there. I wonder if I would have thought about it ahead. I've been conducting an interview with the president, vice president or anybody else, if we should be. Because I haven't been with a co-anchor or anybody else in an interview situation. So, I was just wondering as they were sitting there.

So, but that's -- but that's a really good point where you said -- because they always say, I've been tested, I've been tested, and then they downplay testing everybody in the same breath. You know, they're saying, oh, you know, I've been tested. But yes, that is a very good point. You know, no one is ever -- that no one is -- no one has raised. So, thank you for that.

So, listen, Ohio Governor Mike DeWine reversed his decision that requires residents to wear face masks. This is how he explained that decision and I want you to talk about it. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. MIKE DEWINE (R-OH): Face masks are very important in our business group came back and said, you know, every employee, for example, should wear a face mask. So, we're continuing that, whether it's retail or wholesale, whatever it is, manufacturing, every employee is going to have the face mask.

But it became very clear to me after we put out the order that everyone in retail, who walk into a store as a customer, would have to do that. It became clear to me that that was just a bridge too far. That people were not going to accept the government telling them what to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, shoppers are free to spread the Coronavirus to workers, but not the other way around? Does that make any sense to you?

JHA: Yes. So, first of all, I want to say, I think Governor DeWine has done a very good job in this outbreak, and I'm going to cut him a little slack. He tried to do the right thing. But from a scientific point of view, Don, you're absolutely right. If we're going to have workers wear it, our customers should be wearing it, because everybody's got to protect each other.

I don't know how we get there. I'd love it if that order could have stuck. If not, maybe mayors have to do it. But it would be a really good thing for -- to require people to wear masks when they're outside.

LEMON: Yes. I want you to check out this video of one of the protests in Sacramento, OK? Protesters and police packed together, I don't see anyone -- no, it looks like no one is wearing masks. How dangerous is this, doctor? Looking -- they're up in that police officers' faces?

JHA: Yes, it's incredibly dangerous, right? We know that asymptomatic transmission, many people without symptoms spread to each other, the disease to each other. I mean, that video just makes me shudder, right? Because it's -- I feel bad for those first responders who have to deal with those protesters. And it's putting a lot of people at risk.

LEMON: I kept wondering why nobody you know, you see, anyway, what happened to the police officers -- no, throwing people to the ground, as we see in other situations, arresting people and I didn't see in some of the video but --

JHA: Yes. This is why we've seen so many first responders, police officers, ambulance folks, get sick and die of Coronavirus. We've got to find a way to protect those first responders especially from scenes like that.

LEMON: Yes. Thank you, doctor. I appreciate it. Thank you.

JHA: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: A beautiful spring weekend across the country and a lot of Americans were allowed to, you know, they went on the beach. Looks like people in Treasure Island, Florida, Galveston, Texas, did their best to follow social distancing rules, photos of crowded beaches in Southern California last weekend angered Governor Gavin Newsom, who had this reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): Those images are an example of what not to see people what not to do. This virus doesn't take the weekends off. And that's why I cannot impress upon you more to those Californians watching, that we can't see the images like we saw, particularly on Saturday in Newport Beach and elsewhere, in the state of California.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, joining me now is Laura Ferguson, the mayor Pro Tem of San Clemente, California. Mayor Ferguson, I appreciate you joining us. Governor Newsom's outrage was about beaches in California. But we saw packed beaches around this country where you are in Orange County, California. The governor closed down the beaches. But you think that's the wrong move? Why do you think so?

[21:15:10]

LAURA FERGUSON, MAYOR PRO TEM OF SAN CLEMENTE, CALIFORNIA: Thanks for having me tonight. Well, first, we had excellent active use beach plan in place when we reopened our beaches in San Clemente. The city council reopened the beaches after a 2-1/2-week closure. And we reopened them on April 25th with an active use plan that was working. People were following the social distance protocols we had in place. We had the summer --

LEMON: What does that mean? Can you explain to us what an active use plan is, please?

FERGUSON: Oh, yes. We had the protocols are that we were ensuring that people were properly spaced six feet apart as they walk the coastal trail. There was no passive use, meaning no sitting on beach towels, children playing in the sand, everyone had to keep moving. So, moving and being properly distanced. So, that also included surfing, paddle boarding, swimming in the ocean. So, recreational use only.

LEMON: Were people following those guidelines, Mayor?

FERGUSON: Yes, they were. And we're in San Clemente, the most southern beach in Orange County. We boarded the San Diego County line. And I saw -- I saw people complying with the protocols that we had in place. In fact, that first weekend, we opened. There were six citations issued. One, for opened bottle on the beach, glass, and then five for not complying with the active use protocols. In fact, they were staying in place.

LEMON: So, you had people out there patrolling the beaches to make sure?

FERGUSON: We did. Lifeguards, addition -- recreational staff and then deputies. We went ahead and had the summer beach patrol come on early to help us implement that, ensure everybody was following the rules so to speak.

LEMON: OK. So, according to the Orange County health care agency, there were 163 new cases confirmed in Orange County on Friday. That's a 22 percent increase in Coronavirus cases. I have to ask you. Do you think this is really the time to be loosening restrictions when there is an increase in cases?

FERGUSON: Well, I believe we do because those -- the testing has increased phenomenally, that the county health care department rolled out a testing program. And then also testing sites have popped up throughout the county. We have one in San Clemente that Memorial Care is overseeing and that opened last month. And our numbers have remained pretty consistent in San Clemente. We're at 49 now, but for three weeks, we -- for a three-week period, we were at 46.

So, we're not seeing a huge spike in COVID-19 cases here in San Clemente. and we've done a really great job that we've -- in the city of San Clemente between the employees and businesses and residents, just following and adhering to the stay-at-home order as much as possible, social distancing, wearing masks and it's been working. And I am disappointed that our beaches were closed because we just opened them a week ago. And it's the wrong direction in my opinion. I thought we were heading forward.

LEMON: What is -- what is opening the beaches -- how does that help? What is -- I'm trying to understand why opening the beaches makes a difference in this situation. Why wouldn't keeping it in -- keeping them closed a little bit longer just to make sure that the cases don't go up and to see where you are. Why wouldn't that be helpful instead of opening? What is -- what's the rush? Why would you -- why not just wait a little bit to see?

FERGUSON: Because people want them open. Our community wants them open for their mental and health well, you know, physical health wellbeing. And there isn't any science or -- and facts of saying that being at the beach is dangerous. In fact, the open air is very healthy for people to be in now, we're finding. So, we like the active use plan. We submitted.

In fact, tonight, our interim city manager will be having a conference call with the governor's office tonight, probably around 8:00 and talk about our active use plan because the governor wants to work with the cities and make sure that they have measures in place to make sure people are, you know, spacing themselves accordingly. And so --

LEMON: OK, mayor. I've got it.

FERGUSON: -- we'll find out tonight if that's adopted. Thank you.

LEMON: OK. I've got it. Yes, I have to go. But for the interest of time, I'm not sure that the science actually shows what you use at -- listen, people being outside and being healthy. But I don't -- I don't know if the science actually shows that when there is a pandemic. But listen, good luck, OK. And I appreciate you coming on. And I would appreciate if you come back and you know, as we -- as time goes by to see what happens. Thank you so much, OK?

FERGUSON: I appreciate it. Thank you. Good night.

LEMON: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. A new report goes inside the White House Coronavirus response and the story of the chaos is stunning.

[21:20:11]

I'm going to talk to the reporters who helped break the story. That's next.

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LEMON: President Trump tonight attempting to talk up his response to the Coronavirus pandemic. But a Washington Post report is painting a clearer picture about the chaos engulfing the White House the past month, and just how far the President has been willing to go to reopen the country. It's called 34 days of pandemic: Inside Trump's desperate attempts to reopen America.

Yasmeen Abutaleb and Josh Dawsey contributed to the posts reporting and they join me now. Good evening to both of you. Yasmeen, I'm going to start with you, first. This is a quote from the article, says President Trump was apprehensive about so much carnage on his watch, yet also impatient to reopen the economy. And he wanted data to justify doing so.

[21:25:03]

So, the White House considered its own analysis. A small team led by Kevin Hassett, a former chairman of Trump's Council of Economic Advisers, with no background in infectious diseases, quietly built an echo, economic -- echo -- econometric model to guide response operations. Did they create a model to support their narrative? Is that what happened here?

YASMEEN ABUTALEB, NATIONAL HEALTH REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, I think what we know about the data analysis from Kevin Hassett is, a lot of White House officials interpreted as meaning that cases would start to drop off in mid to late April. And, you know, there would be substantially fewer deaths than the models they were looking at previously. You know, the previous models have projected 100,000 to 240,000 deaths.

Many White House officials that my colleagues and I spoke to you interpreted the Hassett model or the Hassett data analysis as a, you know, a smaller epidemic and one that would begin to taper off substantially in mid to late April.

LEMON: So, how do you build -- how do you build that, like this econometric model from -- instead of science? How do you do that and not use science? Did they not use science at all?

ABUTALEB: Well, the way it was explained to my colleagues is, you know, it was still using an existing model, but inputting data in real time rather than trying to predict -- project several days out. So, not, you know, manipulating the data, but basically using a different methodology that, you know, presented a caseload that was far less substantial than, you know, some previous models that were relied upon.

LEMON: Got it. Josh, I want to bring you in because this model is just one example of the President pushing back on science. I mean, you know, here's more from your reporting on how he responded after the dangers of this hydroxychloroquine became more clear.

He says although Trump stopped touting the drug publicly, privately he maintained his support of hydroxychloroquine and got upset with government officials presenting studies or bringing him evidence of its risk or failings, encouraging them to have a more positive outlook, it said.

He's still defending this hydroxychloroquine even tonight, in this town hall, he is desperate to find a silver bullet despite what the evidence shows. And listen, it shows so far that hydroxychloroquine is not a silver bullet. Maybe, you know, tests will show in the future that it is, but he is -- he's desperate.

Josh, are you there?

JOSH DAWSEY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (via telephone): Can you hear me?

LEMON: Yes, I can hear you now,

DAWSEY: If you (INAUDIBLE) or an elixir of sorts (INAUDIBLE) and he's been pushing many governors to embrace this hydroxychloroquine drug. One of the things we reported, Don, was that the President, even enlisted one of his friends from Palm Beach to call Gavin Newsom, the governor of California, on his personal cell phone number and just try and get him to buy millions of pills of hydroxychloroquine.

The President's heard from Rudy Giuliani as well as his doctor friends in New York, how that this drug works anecdotally, and has been very resistant to the broader studies that have shown the essence toward this subset. Maybe this is not the lab approved drug that is going to cure this all throughout this entire process.

The President has relied on hydroxychloroquine than you know what other times he suggested things that others in his administration have said, are not particularly smart, such as at the podium when he said he might want to study injecting disinfectant or UV light. The President has been looking nonstop in the supers if you talk to our officials in the White House for these drugs that can make this end faster than health experts and others believe it will.

LEMON: Interesting. It's an interesting report. Again, it's in the first reporting. It's called 34 Days of Pandemic: Inside Trump's Desperate Attempts to Reopen America. Listen, it's all we have time for. There's so much news tonight. I thank you both for joining us, Josh and Yasmeen. Thanks again. And make sure you stay with CNN TONIGHT. Jake Tapper investigates what really happened during the U.S. fight against COVID-19. The CNN Special Report, "THE PANDEMIC & THE PRESIDENT" airs just minutes from now at 10:00.

Doctor Deborah Burke says states should be following the White House guidelines to reopen, but many states aren't, are their residents -- are their residents at risk?

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[21:30:00]

LEMON: Tonight, there are more than 1.1 million cases of Coronavirus in the U.S. More than 67,000 people have already died in this country. Natasha Chen has the latest tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: New York Governor Andrew Cuomo appeared in a virtual show of force and unity today with his fellow Northeastern governors to make an announcement.

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): We're going to form a consortium with our seven northeast partner states, which by about $5 billion worth of equipment and supplies.

CHEN: Cuomo also cited a new CDC report to seemingly pour cold water on President Trump's oft repeated boast of the China travel ban, being critically decisive action his administration took early on. CUOMO: What we have seen in New York didn't come from China, but actually is a different strain of the virus that came from Europe. We were looking at China, and the travel ban on China may have been helpful but the horse was already out of the barn in China.

CHEN: Meanwhile, as the U.S. heads into another work week, more than half of the states are marching toward reopening, but it doesn't appear any of them have met the White House's guidelines of having a downward trajectory of documented cases within a 14-day period. Today, the doctor coordinating the administration's Coronavirus Task Force once again urged the importance of that downward trend.

[21:35:15]

DEBORAH BIRX, WHITE HOUSE'S CORONAVIRUS TASKFORCE COORDINATOR: As states reopen, we really want them to follow the gating criteria.

CHEN: On the medical front, Remdesivir received emergency FDA approval, Friday, but Birx stopped short of calling it a silver bullet, instead calling it a first step forward. As far as operation warp speed, the Trump administration's ambitious plan to make 100 million doses of a vaccine available by November, Birx struck a more tempered tone.

BIRX: On paper it's possible.

CHEN: And for some in the states not yet ready to open, restlessness continues to mount, defying a stay-at-home order, spectators took to the National Mall in Washington DC for the Blue Angels flyover. And on a sunny day in New York City, large crowds gathered in Central Park, many flouting social distance guidelines and without masks, earning the ire of Governor Cuomo.

CUOMO: How people cannot wear masks? That, to me, is even disrespectful. It's disrespectful.

CHEN: And while Governor Cuomo offered some good news in New York, hospitalizations under 10,000 for the first time since March, he cautioned against a false sense of comfort, especially as more nice days lay ahead.

CUOMO: My gut says the weather is going to warm. People are bored. People want this over. They see the numbers going down. They can take false comfort. Oh, it's going down. That means it's over. No, no. We never said it was over?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHEN: Well, you heard Governor Cuomo's strong feelings about people wearing face masks in public, but requiring people to wear masks in other parts of the country has been met with backlash. For example, in Stillwater, Oklahoma, the city amended its ordinance after store employees were threatened with violence when they tried to enforce it. Also in Ohio, an order requiring customers to wear masks in stores was reversed. Governor DeWine said today that was a bridge too far though store employees will still be wearing face masks. Don, back to you. LEMON: All right, Natasha, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Next, the race to find a vaccine is underway. We're going to bring you an update on that and the latest treatments being looked into.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:40:00]

LEMON: The drug Remdesivir has been found to shorten COVID-19 in patients with severe infections, but not significantly have an impact whether a patient lives or dies. So, here to walk us through those and the race to find a vaccine is Dr. Harvey Fineberg. He's the chair of the Standing Committee on Emerging Infectious Diseases. He joins us quite often here. And so, we're glad to have him. Doctor, Remdesivir is showing a lot of promise. Dr. Birx called did a good first step forward, not a silver bullet. What does it mean that we have at least one treatment or possible treatment?

DR. HARVEY FINEBERG, CHAIR, STANDING COMMITTEE ON EMERGING INFECTIOUS DISEASES (via Skype): This study that was just reported, and by the way, not yet fully released, appears to demonstrate a modest, but significant effects, significant in a statistical sense that it was unlikely to have occurred by chance, but modest in that it reduced the number of days on average to recovery from 15 to 11. That is important, not just because of the few days but because it indicates the possibility that antiviral drugs can be effective against this virus. That's really the significance of this study.

LEMON: There's a lot of hope surrounding a vaccine trial at Oxford University. One researcher telling NBC this morning that they'll likely know by June if it'll work. How optimistic are you about the Oxford trial?

FINEBERG: The Oxford trial is one of scores of vaccines that are in various stages of development. It's a very interesting approach that they have using a viral carrier to take part of the RNA of the coronavirus and reproduce in ourselves by that other viral carrier, the protein from the coronavirus that the body can recognize and develop immunity against. It sounds like a multi-step process, and it is, every step has to work. And it is a technology that although it hasn't been used for a vaccine successfully, as yet, has been used for gene therapy treatment. So, there's a lot going for it. But we have no real way to know at this point if it's going to succeed or be better than any of the other vaccines that are under development.

LEMON: All right, Doctor, thank you so much. We appreciate your time. We'll see you soon.

FINEBERG: See you then, Don. Thank you.

LEMON: A black man jogging in Georgia was shot to death, and over two months later, no one has been charged. His mother speaks out here, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:45:00]

LEMON: So, I want to bring your attention to an important story that would be getting a lot more coverage if not for the Coronavirus coverage. I'm going to tell you about the story tonight. It's a family, the family of Ahmaud Arbery, and they are asking for justice. More than two months after the 25-year-old was shot and killed in Satilla Shores, in the Satilla Shores neighborhood in Brunswick, Georgia. No one has been charged and no arrests have been made. On February 23rd, Arbery was running through the neighborhood when he passed Gregory McMichael.

According to police, McMichael said he thought Arbery looked like the suspect in a series of recent break-ins in the area. According to the police report, McMichael says he then alerted his 34-year-old son Travis, saying, Travis, the guy is running down the street, let's go. They then grabbed the shotgun and a pistol following Arbery in their truck. The report says that the two of -- two of them and a third pursuer and another truck chased Arbery to a nearby intersection. When they caught up to him, McMichael told police they called out to Arbery, "Stop, stop. We want to talk to you."

Then, they pulled up and Travis exited the truck with the shotgun. Gregory told police Arbery then violently attacked Travis McMichael and the struggle over the gun. They struggle over the gun and Arbery was shot twice. Two district attorneys have recused themselves from the case over possible conflicts of interest, but not before one of the prosecutors wrote that Travis acted out of self-defense and that their actions fell within the state's citizen's arrest laws.

[21:50:10]

Joining me now to discuss is Ahmaud's mother Wanda Cooper and the attorney for the family Lee Merritt. Again, these are citizens, these are not police officers who acted in this manner. Wanda, thank you so much for joining us. I'm so sorry for this heartbreaking loss. How are you doing?

WANDA COOPER, MOTHER OF AHMAUD ARBERY ( Via Cisco Webex): Thank you. Thank you for having me.

LEMON: How are you holding up?

COOPER: I have my -- I have my -- I have my moments. I have my days and I have my sleepless nights.

LEMON: So, this is not unusual for your son to go out on a run, right, and he was running through an area that you would normally have worried about, not normally worried about it, or would you have worried about him running through this area?

COOPER: I wouldn't have ever worked with him jogging. Because if he's jogging, he's not bothering anyone on his daily run. So, I never worried about him jogging, ever.

LEMON: So, at first, I understand that authorities told you that Ahmaud was -- that he was involved in a robbery and that the homeowner shot him, and then they changed that?

COOPER: That is correct. When I was first notified on the 23rd of February, I was told that Ahmaud was involved in a burglary. There was a tussle, there was a confrontation with my son and the homeowner. And at that confrontation, there was a squabble over the firearm. And then, Ahmaud was shot and killed.

LEMON: And he was not armed.

COOPER: He was not armed.

LEMON: No arrests have been made, but one of the men involved is Gregory McMichael, a former police officer and an investigator. And his son Travis is also involved. And that slowed down the whole investigation because there's also so many people with conflicts of interest, who used to work with McMichael. I know it's a convoluted story, but they have connections with the police department and with authorities in the town.

COOPER: That is correct.

LEMON: Okay. So, let me bring Lee in to help clear this up. Lee, defenders of McMichael, the McMichaels, who the family is involved who chased -- who chased Mr. -- who chased Arbery, Mr. Aubrey, they have pointed to a shoplifting conviction in Ahmaud's past. And Ahmaud was allegedly seen in a house under construction nearby, leading a neighbor to call 911 apparently moments before this all happened. So, how do you respond to that? What does this have to do with what happened?

LEE MERRITT, ATTORNEY, MERRITT LAW FIRM: Well, the decision in to rely on the citizen's arrest statute is really a recent invention. Prior to that, they just simply said it was self-defense. But now that they're saying that they were trying to stop a crime. According to that law, you actually have to be observing the crime, or be in the immediate knowledge of the crime. The only thing that they have ever said, is, as you pointed out, that Ahmaud stopped by a house that was under construction, and they looked through the window. We don't know if that happened or not. But even if that did happen, that is not a felony, that would invoke the citizen's arrest statute that would make this allowable. And the -- and the reference to these alleged conduct from high school, or shoplifting is absurd has nothing to do with his murder.

LEMON: So, why would -- so if you see someone running down the street and you jumped in your truck, and you tell someone to go get your gun and you jump in your truck, what business is it of yours? Why not just call the cops and say, I think I saw someone involved in a robbery and tell them where they are and let the cops handle it.

MERRITT: That's exactly what we expected them to do. That's exactly what the law requires them to do. At best, they have the authority to follow Ahmaud and send law enforcement to their location. But if you listen closely to the 911 calls, the emergency call taker was asking the entire time, what is he doing that is of criminal concern? And they didn't get any answer for that. They said he's a black man running down our road.

LEMON: And you said there -- quickly, before we have to go, you said there are three suspects in this case?

MERRITT: That's right. There is a Brian Williams, who is not mentioned along with McMichael, Gregory McMichael and Travis McMichael. We know that he was involved because the district attorney said that he was there as well.

LEMON: Okay. Okay, so, Gregory McMichael said since he's under investigation, he won't be commenting quickly. I have about 15 seconds, maybe not even that much. Where does this case go from here?

[21:55:01]

MERRITT: The district attorney Tom Durden must indict these men. We have met with him. He is reviewing the case and we expect action this week. Please go to runwithahmaud.com for action steps on how to get justice for this family.

LEMON: Wanda, thank you so much. Lee, thank you so much.

COOPER: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

LEMON: Please let us know how this -- where this goes next. Keep us updated. We appreciate it.

MERRITT: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you. And thank you for watching everyone. The CNN Special Report "THE PANDEMIC & THE PRESIDENT" right after this.

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