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Don Lemon Tonight

States Reopen Despite Lack Of Massive Testing; White House Model Projects More Deaths By August; Meat Processing Industry Hard Hit By Virus; More Than 1,180,000 U.S. Coronavirus Cases, More Than 68,900 Americans Have Died; Chinese State Media Calls Secretary Of State Pompeo Evil After Pompeo Claims Virus Originated In Chinese Lab; Source, Intel Shared Among U.S. Allies Indicates Virus Likely Came From A Market, Not A Chinese Lab. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired May 04, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon starts right now. I'm trying to bite my outfit but more.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: You didn't even let me get to it, can you stop it? You're so competitive.

CUOMO: I am.

LEMON: OK.

CUOMO: I just want to be better than you.

LEMON: OK. So, let me tell you, that font is awfully small on the teleprompter. So, can you guys fix that? Now I'm something myself in the teleprompter. So, look, so here's the thing.

CUOMO: It does look better on you.

LEMON: I'm trying to look my -- there are like -- these are like Coke bottles. I need them now. OK, so here's the thing. So, I saw you were back and I said, an owed to Chris I'm going to do black and white tonight. So, I go in the old closet and I look for my black neck tie.

CUOMO: Here it is.

LEMON: And the black neck tie is not in my closet.

CUOMO: How's it look?

LEMON: So, where's my black neck tie?

CUOMO: It's around my neck.

LEMON: I knew --I knew my black neck tie was in here. Did you sneak in my closet?

CUOMO: Huh? No, I just never gave it back. I was hoping you wouldn't remember. I know you'd want to wear. LEMON: I have not worn it since. I said, if he came into this office,

he better wore -- he better worn gloves.

CUOMO: I'm the COVID kid. I'm negative and I have the antibodies.

LEMON: I don't feel bad now. I knew. So, this is as close as I could get because it was blue. So, I'm really happy that you are back.

CUOMO: You are always better dressed. You are always better looking.

LEMON: I couldn't even find a pocket square. Did you take my pocket square?

CUOMO: No, this is my dad's. I actually gave you a pocket square.

LEMON: You did? You did.

CUOMO: You have been a tremendous friend. You always have been. I mean, I love you for who you are and how you are. But you really -- you really took care of my family. I'll never forget it.

LEMON: Yes. Well, thank you very much. Can I say something as they work on -- there we go. It's up now, you can go now. I'm kidding. Can I say something? Because they are working on my teleprompter. Can I say something --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Sure, it's your show.

LEMON: As we are looking, this is a serious stuff. We are looking at these new models that are coming out and they should be concerning to everyone. You and I both have, you know, had a chance to be out. I had the chance to be out. I had to work this weekend. I got into the city.

I saw -- it looked like a normal Sunday as I drove into the city this weekend. I saw people out. Many of them not wearing masks. And I was concerned about the numbers creeping back up.

You would think with these new models coming out, and I saw Dr. Anthony Fauci on. He said, well, models are models. You know, and I've heard Dr. Gupta say, you know, no model is correct. Right? Al of them are -- I forget what he says, all of them are false or whatever, but they are a good guide.

With all of these models coming out, you would think that the White House, the administration, especially the task force, that they would want to give the American people some information.

It's been a week since we have heard from them. People are at home wondering what's happening. All of these places are opening back up. They're concerned about these models. Everyone I know has been asking me about these models. What is happening? Are the numbers actually creeping up?

We're not hearing anything from the administration. We're not hearing anything from the task force. People have a right to know what is going on.

CUOMO: Fauci and Birx have been straight from the beginning that if you do this, you're going to have more pain.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: This is not about science, it's about politics, and I got a news flash for you, this White House is not in the business of giving the American people bad news they can't blame on somebody else.

That's not why you're not hearing -- that's why you're not hearing about the models. The V.A. hasn't put out numbers about how our veterans are faring with COVID in days. The web site are down. They're not in the business of giving bad news they can't blame on somebody else.

But here's what we know, Don, to be fair to them, if you don't know that bad things are going to happen when we reopen then you're not paying attention.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Can't blame this all on them. We all know our reality. We all know our risk.

LEMON: Yes. Everywhere I go now, brother, this, these, and gloves. And I carry the love that I have for you, and I stay home because I want people -- I want you to be safe and I did -- I do that for you and for people like you, you know what I'm saying?

CUOMO: I do know exactly.

LEMON: All right.

CUOMO: You are an Ameri-can. I love you, Don Lemon.

LEMON: Yes, take care. I love you, too. I'm happy that you're back and I'm glad that you're safe and healthy and your family as well. I'll see you soon.

CUOMO: See you.

LEMON: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Here is our breaking news, OK? And I want everyone to please pay attention to this. Because these are stark warnings tonight. The toll of the coronavirus in this country could get much, much worse. While we are acting like things are getting better, OK, it could get much, much worse.

We're reopening states, at least 42 of them will be partially reopened by Sunday. As if we could beat this virus that's killing thousands and thousands of Americans by just acting as if everything is fine. Everything is not fine. We're not on the other side of this yet, OK?

Please, please listen to me. More than 68,000 Americans have died. More than 1,180,000 people have gotten sick. New predictions of just how high those numbers could go are a gut punch.

[22:05:04]

The model often cited by the White House from the University of Washington now forecasting 134,475 total deaths in the United States. This is by August 4th. Today is May 4th. August 4th is just three months away. That's nearly double its previous prediction.

Why have those numbers gone so high? I want you to listen to what the director of the institute behind the model tells Anderson Cooper and Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTOPHER MURRAY, DIRECTOR, INSTITUTE FOR HEALTH METRICS AND EVALUATION: There's clearly a huge relationship between how much people are out and about and how much transmission occurs, and it also means that when we cut mobility with social distancing, that was having a very beneficial effect on transmission.

So, no surprise, as people go back to being more active and interacting with each other, we're going to see increased transmission.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: No surprise, he says. Yet the president is encouraging more states to reopen. And the thing is he may not see the results. We may not see the results of those re-openings for weeks. We still don't have the widespread testing the president promised nearly two months ago. Remember, anybody who needs a test can get a test?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Anybody that needs a test gets a test. They're there. They have the tests. And the tests are beautiful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Beautiful. We're still not there. And that means we have no idea how many of us are walking around carrying the virus. Asymptomatic. No symptoms. Just spreaders. And potentially spreading it to others. If we make the wrong choices now, more people will die.

A Trump administration model projects a steep rise in the number of cases and deaths, up to 3,000 deaths per day by June. Three thousand Americans per day. Less than one month from now. That according to the internal document obtained by the New York Times and confirmed by CNN.

That model also predicting about 200,000 new cases each day by the end of the month. Yet the president, who has said that he is a cheerleader for the country, says this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Some states I think, frankly, aren't going fast enough. I mean, you have some states that -- Virginia, they want to close down until the middle of June, and a lot of things that they're doing -- I really believe you can go to parks. You can go to beaches. You keep it, you know, you keep the spread, you stay away a certain amount, and I really think the public has been incredible with what they're -- that's one of the reasons we're successful.

That's one of the -- if you call losing 80,000 or 90,000 people successful, but it's one of the reasons that we're not at that high end of the plain as opposed to the low end.

BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: That number has changed, Mr. President. You said that --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: It's going up. I used to say 65,000 and now I'm saying 80,000 or 90,000, and it goes up and it goes up rapidly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I think I misspoke because my own antenna went up when I said that I think I said 200,000. And if I did, no one corrected me. I think I caught that myself.

That model also predicting about 200,000, 200,000. That's right, 200,000 new cases each day by the end of the month. That's a lot. Two hundred thousand.

So, you acknowledge that the numbers are going up. The number of Americans who are likely to die in the next weeks and months. And at the same time, you say you think some states aren't opening up fast enough and you call your response to this deadly virus successful.

Listen, I said this before and it bears repeating, OK? So, I don't want anyone to get this wrong. Everybody, everybody wants the economy to reopen. Everyone does. This country is hurting. People are hurting. Millions of people are out of work.

But we cannot afford to end the social distancing and stay-at-home orders that are -- they're the only things that are working against the virus right now. Not until we have more testing and contact tracing. Without that, we are just flying blind.

Remember, that the reason the modelers say that the projected number of dead went up is increased mobility. Meaning that more people moving around from place to place. So why is the treasury secretary out there encouraging Americans to take trips around the country?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVEN MNUCHIN, U.S. SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY: This is a great time for people to explore America. A lot of people haven't seen many parts of America.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

MNUCHIN: I wish I could get back on the road soon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:10:01]

LEMON: OK. So, with all due respect to the treasury secretary's need to be the president's cheerleading squad, on the cheerleading squad, that is just not where we are right now. And coincidentally, maybe not the president, maybe not the president's traveling tomorrow, OK? Maybe it's coincidence, maybe it's not, but the president is traveling tomorrow, visiting a factory. A factory making N95 masks in Phoenix.

No word on whether he plans to wear a mask. I hope he reconsiders wearing one. It would set a really good example for the country. But.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think wearing a face mask as I greet presidents, prime ministers, dictators, kings, queens, I don't know, somehow, I don't see it for myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Maybe. It would be nice. Wouldn't it be nice if we saw the President of the United States show up in a mask? It would set a great example. We shall see.

Let's bring in now our White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins and Dr. Larry Brilliant. He is an epidemiologist and the chair of the advisory committee ending pandemics. OK. So, thank you both for joining us.

Dr. Brilliant, I'm going to start with you, because when we look at these new major projections and how much the estimates have changed, the truth is we have no idea of how many Americans are going to die from this virus.

LARRY BRILLIANT, CNN MEDICAL ANALSYT: Nice to be with you, Don. This is really a hard time. It's just -- there's no way to sugarcoat it. If we don't open up the economy, we can feel the pressure. If we do open it up, we will feel the pain.

And the -- it isn't that the models change anything. They're just looking at what is already happening and articulating it for us a little bit better and a little bit smarter. We all have felt this sense of dread that we weren't getting to the bottom of this disease. That it was growing rapidly.

It has explosive growth potential, unlike almost any virus I've seen, except for measles. We're not quite aware of how bad this can be if we don't take it seriously.

LEMON: Kaitlan, these projections are really shocking. And we have barely started the grand reopening the president would like to see. How is the White House responding tonight? What are they saying?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're pushing back on this document, talking about these projections of what this could look like just by early June. Basically, saying in a statement earlier that this is not a White House document. They said that it was not presented to the coronavirus task force and they said it hasn't gone through that interagency process vetting.

So basically, they're distancing themselves from these figures and they say the data is not reflective of any of the modelling done by the task force or data that the task force has analyzed.

And this comes, as we know, the White House has been really skeptical of some of these models, including the Washington model, which is also revised up tonight, doubling its death toll as well to 135,000 deaths by August.

So, a lot of the models seem to be going up, but the White House, we should note, there has been a consistent faction inside that has expressed doubt to the president about what these models are going to look like.

And as you noted, you know, you know, these models are not always accurate. In fact, I don't think they're ever accurate. But as Dr. Sanjay says, they're sometimes useful on looking at what could happen.

And so, the question really is, you know, who can win out making the argument about whether or not they should trust the models or whether or not they should move forward?

But tonight, what we're hearing from sources, Don, is that these latest models are not going affect the White House's current plans for reopening the country.

LEMON: Kaitlan, has anyone asked the strategy behind not giving the coronavirus briefings anymore?

COLLINS: Well, the briefings they believed they only need to do them when they actually have positive updates, more news updates than what you had been seeing happen, where the president was coming out on a daily basis and just fielding these questions.

Because, a, a lot of people viewed them as problematic for the president, which we saw as the last time he took questions at one of these actual briefings in the briefing room how that devolved after that DHS official gave the presentation.

And the other thing we should note, is that they're not just scaling back these briefings, Don, they're also scaling back the Coronavirus Task Force meetings. Now, we are told one is scheduled for tomorrow, but they're not meeting every single day for hours on end as they had been doing when it was first formed early on in the administration.

LEMON: So, there's not a strategy to move on as if this is no longer a big deal? Because you -- one would think that today, considering the models and the questions that reporters and the country has about these models, that they would want to give the Americans some answers about them.

COLLINS: Well, I think what you saw with the models with the first document that we obtained where we saw what the numbers that they were looking at internally, that they were predicting that these numbers of not only deaths but also the cases you noted are going to go up significantly.

[22:14:58]

They were still looking at those models and they were distancing themselves from it. But then the model they based a lot of their projections on that they used at the briefings before also revised its death toll up.

So, it's not like it's just one model showing something like this, it's multiple models. And of course, you know, the question is would it be helpful if someone like a Dr. Birx came out, saw how she views this data. Because this has really been her bread and butter throughout this. But we should note, these people are still meeting inside the administration. They are still talking about that.

LEMON: Got it.

COLLINS: Though it's not clear when she would speak publicly next.

LEMON: Hey, Dr. Brilliant, if you can just give me a quick answer. I'm not going to play the sound bite. I'm not sure if you saw Dr. Fauci on with Chris Cuomo tonight. But are we asking people to accept a certain number of deaths?

And what if those deaths become theirs or their friends or loved ones, and I wonder the people you're sitting on a couch next to or the mom that you call every day on the phone. What are we willing to exchange here in order to open up the economy?

BRILLIANT: There is an absolute trade-off between how fast you open up and how many more cases and how many more deaths follow, especially how mobile we are.

Chris Murray when he was describing -- one of the major movers in his model, he said it's a mover, it's the motion. It's how mobile we are, and that's the same thing as opening up.

LEMON: Yes. Thank you both. I appreciate it.

New projections with numbers of cases and deaths soaring, but with more and more states starting to reopen now, who will pay the price and how high will it be?

[22:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Back with the new numbers on the coronavirus pandemic are staggering. The University of Washington projecting 134,000 deaths in the United States by August 4th. Nearly double its last projection. The data now reflecting the early days of states beginning to reopen.

Now, I want to bring in Andy Slavitt. He is a former acting administrator on the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services. Andy, I appreciate you joining us. Thank you so much.

So, listen, you are very fired up about these new models out tonight and the impact that they have had on the decision that got made as a result of the earlier totals. Explain. What's up?

ANDY SLAVITT, FORMER ACTING ADMINISTRATOR, CENTERS FOR MEDICARE AND MEDICAID SERVICES: Well, look, the -- as Dr. Brilliant said, the people who put the models together, they're laying on a set of assumptions, they're doing a little bit of work.

It's important to try to -- for them to try to get information out there, but there is a political context behind this all, and when the president can go step forward and say, hey, guess what, it's not going to be that bad and it's your model, you probably should step forward and say, you know what? This isn't the message that the model intends to send.

When at the time the model came out, I talked to the person who put it together, fine gentleman, and put out the six or seven assumptions that were included in his analysis, and those assumptions were things that even at the time weren't proving to be true.

So, when we have a president who is jumping on wishful thinking and they have a lot of people in this country who listen to the president, and they really do, we just don't want anybody to be misled because this isn't a political calculation. This should be something we all line up behind.

LEMON: Former -- you know the former New Jersey Governor is Chris Christie, and he -- he spoke to my colleague Dana Bash on her daily podcast D.C. -- daily D.C. podcast and he talked about the consequences of keeping the economy closed. Here it is, a bit of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FMR. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ): Well, of course everybody wants to save every life they can, but the question is towards what end ultimately? Are there ways that we can thread the middle here to allow that there are going to be deaths, and there are going to be deaths no matter what, and if we can do things to keep people in the mode of wearing masks, of wearing gloves of, you know, distancing where appropriate.

We've got to let some of these folks get back to work because if we don't, we're going to destroy the American way of life and these families and it will be years and years before we can recover.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Is that where we are essentially? Saying people are going to die either way and we have to open the economy? SLAVITT: Well, look, he's not making a bad point. In fact, I don't

think there is anybody in the country that doesn't want both our way of life back and to minimize the death toll. I think we should just assume that there is positive intent here.

The fallacy with what he's saying is the following. I wish we were choosing between two options, a good economy and loss of life. The reality is we're not. Because what will make the economy good are what? Consumers feeling comfortable spending again. Businesses feeling comfortable hiring again. People taking plane trips, buying cars, buying machinery.

That's not going to happen until people know we've got a handle on this public health emergency. So, what we're doing instead and we're following ourselves into saying we want to fix the economy.

What we really want to do is get back to some of our life, not have the discipline that it takes that other countries have shown, quite frankly, that it's taken to beat this virus, and as a result we get neither a better economy nor are we doing what's right for people's health. And that's, I think, something we just need to come to grips with.

LEMON: Yes. Listen, I think what many here -- when they hear that is -- is you're choosing between a life and money, right? Don't get me wrong, people have to feed their families. I mean, that's just -- that's basic. You got to feed your families. You got to put money on the table. No one wants to lose their home, you know what I'm saying, right?

But who do you choose if you're sitting there with your family on the couch? Who do you choose to live, right? Which one? Who are you choosing? Are you choosing -- I'm just thinking about it in general terms. Which person do you choose here? Nana in Jersey, in Boca, like, which --

SLAVITT: Right.

LEMON: Do you -- do you understand what I'm saying?

SLAVITT: I do.

LEMON: Is that a wrong way -- is that the wrong way to think about it?

SLAVITT: Look, lots of things in life can be recovered, people can't. But I want to say something a little more hopeful. I mean, Germany's figured this out by testing. Greece has figured this out by discipline. The Czech Republic has figured it out by wearing masks.

[22:25:03]

Hong Kong has figured it out through their own experience. New Zealand has figured it out using a warning system. This virus doesn't have to outsmart us. We are choosing not to pick a path is our problem.

LEMON: Right. SLAVITT: So, it's not as if this is unwinnable. It's not as if we have

to sit here, hang our heads and say we're either going to lose people or lose the economy or both. We actually just need a coherent strategy.

LEMON: And it's not as if --

(CROSSTALK)

SLAVITT: The reason I'm fed up we don't have a coherent strategy that most of the countries in the world do.

LEMON: And it's not as if we aren't the richest country on earth and we can't help our fellow citizens and we can't say stop foreclosures, stop evicting people, you know, stop all these things. Provide food for people.

We can actually do all of those things. We can get testing for everyone in this country if we actually had an administration who could -- could do those things, right, who -- who were able to provide all those services for people, but -- but we don't. Do you understand what I'm saying?

SLAVITT: I do.

LEMON: And that's who we should be upset with.

SLAVITT: We're also the most innovative country in the world.

LEMON: Exactly. Yes.

SLAVITT: We can be kind people. I mean, we can really pull together. In our history we've done remarkable things.

LEMON: Right. But that's not what -- we're choosing -- we're choosing the wrong way to do it, and I think our administration could figure this all out if they didn't politicize it. Andy, we got to go. Thank you. I appreciate your time.

SLAVITT: All right.

LEMON: See you.

SLAVITT: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Workers protesting outside meat processing plants after those plants became the epicenter of the coronavirus outbreaks in their communities. I'm going to speak to a former agriculture secretary about the country's food supply and what you need to know about that. That's next.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The same Trump administration document that projected deaths could rise to 3,000 a day by June is also giving us a clearer picture of the food and meat processing situation. According to the document as of April 27th, outbreaks had hit 115 meat or poultry processing plants of the over 130,000 workers in those plants, 3 percent of them, that's 3,900 people, have covid-19, 20 workers have already died.

Throughout the crisis the CDC has sent personnel to facilities in nine states, eight of which are still active, to attempt to control the outbreak. Joining me now to discuss is Dan Glickman. He is a former secretary of agriculture under President Clinton. Thank you for joining us. We appreciate it.

DAN GLICKMAN, FORMER UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Let's talk about what the CDC report says about what needs to happen to slow the spread of the virus at meat processing facilities. And they -- and these things like increasing physical space for workers, getting them to use face coverings, and even just communicating proper safety information in multiple languages. Why aren't these kinds of things already in place?

GLICKMAN: Well, and also sanitizing the whole place, which needs to be done. Some companies are doing it better than others. Quite frankly, there haven't been as good a set of national standards as what we need, national guidelines that have been enforced, and so what's happening in the process is, you know, the plants are being shut down to clean them up or they're moving at a much slower pace. Which means far less meat is moving through the process. And that is, of course, impacting the consumer.

LEMON: Workers and their families are protesting outside some of these plants. I'm going to put up some video now. There it is. It's from Smithfield -- a Smithfield plant in Nebraska. Are these companies able to act fast enough to change the way they operate and protect their workers?

GLICKMAN: They're going to have to or else it's going to impact the meat supply and their business operations and the ability of the consumers to get meat at their retail operations.

Right now, we're seeing about 25 percent reduction in pork capability or ability to consumer at grocery stores and about a 10 percent in beef. And so if these companies want to continue to operate with the same kind of operation they've been, they're going to have to deal with this workers' safety problem, especially as it deals with the covid problem.

And the irony is, Don, on the other side of the coin, is you have the largest increase in unemployment probably in the -- fastest in the history of the America, and so you have all these people lined up at food banks around the country needing food. So you have this anomaly between slowdown in meat packing facilities, which I think can be fixed, and you have the needs on the other side of a vast increase of poor at the same time.

LEMON: Dan Glickman, thank you for your time. I appreciate it. What CNN's learning about claims coronavirus originated in Wuhan,

China, at a Wuhan, China market and what intelligence agencies are saying about it. We're going to bring you that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:35:00]

LEMON: China lashing out at the U.S. as both countries trade increasingly hostile accusations over the coronavirus. Chinese state media calling Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo evil after both he and the president suggested Beijing mistakenly unleashed the virus on the world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think they made a horrible mistake, and they didn't want to admit it. We wanted to go in. They didn't want us there.

MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: There is a significant amount of evidence that this came from that laboratory in Wuhan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Fareed Zakaria is host of Fareed Zakaria GPS. He's here with me. But first I want to go to CNN's Alex Marquardt, who has got some breaking news for us on what U.S. allies know about the origins of the coronavirus. Alex, good evening to you. How far off are the president's claims compared to what your sources are telling you?

ALEXANDER MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, they're pretty much the exact opposite. There you had Pompeo and the president saying that this -- that this virus escaped from that Wuhan institute of virology. And that essentially puts the administration at odds with some of its closest intelligence partners.

I was speaking with a western diplomatic official earlier today who has seen the intelligence, who has poured over this, and who says that the assessment that they have is that it is highly unlikely that the virus escaped from the lab and highly likely that, in fact, this was a natural occurrence, that the virus jumped from an animal to a human. So the market theory. That's the other main theory here.

And that, according to this official, is the growing consensus among the five i's, which is this crucial intelligence-sharing network that the U.S. is part of, along with the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. So that is the growing consensus there. It is an assessment, though, Don. No one is saying there is a smoking gun. No one is saying that any of this is 100 percent. But that is the assessment.

[22:40:05]

And short of the Chinese allowing more transparency, allowing more cooperation, there is not going to be a 100 percent answer with certitude. The last thing I would note is that it's not just foreign intelligence services, it is Dr. Anthony Fauci himself who in an interview with National Geographic today said that all of the evidence points to the same thing that these intelligence sources are saying, the jump essentially of the virus from an animal to a human.

LEMON: Alex, thank you very much. I appreciate your reporting. So let's bring in Fareed in now. Fareed, good evening to you. Give me your take on the tension between the U.S. and China right now over this coronavirus. Make sense of this for me and for our audience on this and Alex's reporting.

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN ANCHOR: Well, if you think about it, Don, Donald Trump was asked repeatedly in January and in February what he thought of the way the Chinese were handling the virus, what he thought of President Xi, whether he thought there was any kind of -- anything he held back, and he kept saying over and over again the Chinese are doing a great job, President Xi is doing a great job, we appreciate their transparency.

So that was what he was saying. And at that point the Chinese were saying this is human-to-human transmission. This is a big deal. They have locked up Wuhan. They then locked up 750 million people for a while. So it was absolutely clear what was going on.

What has changed is that the Trump administration and President Trump personally are now being attacked for the fact that they waited essentially six weeks before they did anything. So China has become the scapegoat and the place you attack. Not to say that China hasn't done bad things. China did hide and cover up what was going on. Whether at a local level or a national level is unclear. But there's no question there was some Chinese cover-up.

But the key point is this. By January 29th, Donald Trump knew everything he needed to know from the WHO, from his own NSC, from Peter Navarro, from the CDC, everyone was saying this is a big deal. He decided not to act. So now the focus is on the Chinese. And it's important to understand it doesn't really matter, Don, whether it came out of the lab or the market because everyone agrees it was some kind of accidental transmission.

There is almost nobody saying the Chinese deliberately did this. Why would they deliberately do something that would wreck their economy and kill 10s of thousands of their own citizens, right? So the key issue is, why is it that the Trump administration has suddenly decided that the focus needs to be on whether this accidentally came out of a lab in China or accidentally came out of a wet market in, you know, close by? It's because they're trying to deflect attention.

LEMON: Yes.

ZAKARIA: I want to make one more point, Don, which is very important. This reminds me of the beginning of the Iraq war. What you have right now is people in the White House and at the State Department forcing the intelligence community, pressuring the intelligence community to come to a conclusion that the intelligence community is clearly not yet ready to come to, may never come to because the evidence is ambiguous and perhaps it's not the right answer.

Mike Pompeo, Donald Trump are trying to pressure the intelligence community to say we have some kind of smoking gun with regard to China. And this is the kind of politicized intelligence that led to the mistakes of the Iraq war and we're watching it again.

LEMON: It doesn't matter how the problem started, you have a problem that's here in America. How are you going to solve it? That should be the issue, instead of blaming China and how do we put the blame on China? I've been thinking the exact same thing that you're saying, except you articulate it a lot better than I did,

Fareed. Let me ask you this, though. So China is lashing out. As I said in the introduction to you, lashing out at the Secretary of State, specifically calling Mike Pompeo evil and accusing him of spreading rumors and lies. More of what he said. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POMPEO: Remember, China has a history of infecting the world. And they have a history of running substandard laboratories. These are not the first times that we've had a world exposed to viruses as a result of failures in a Chinese lab.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So they -- he said they have a history of infecting the world and so on and so forth. We're going to see this back and forth between China and the United States government, meaning the Trump administration, Mike Pompeo and Donald Trump for the near future at least. Fareed Zakaria, thank you very much. Make sure you watch Fareed Zakaria GPS Sundays, 10:00 a.m., 1:00 p.m. here on CNN.

The president's lashing out at his predecessors. Former President Bush, former Presidents Bush and Obama despite both of them spreading a message of unity during this crisis.

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[22:45:00]

LEMON: The American presidents have often called on their predecessors' experience when the country faces a time of crisis, but instead of reaching out, President Trump has taken swipes at former Presidents Bush and Obama. What does it mean for the country when there is a rift in the presidents club?

Here to discuss, presidential historian Doris Kearns Goodwin. She is the executive producer of the mini-series Washington and the author of Leadership in Turbulent Times. Always a pleasure to have you on, Doris. Good evening and welcome.

So the performer President Bush put out a nice video over the weekend calling for unity and then President Trump lashed out at -- at Bush for not defending him during the impeachment. I'm just wondering why this president would do something like that. Why do that? [22:50:18]

DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: It's so hard to understand, really. I mean, what you would hope in a time like this, a time of crisis is what a president would do is to reach out to his former predecessor. They are the only ones who know the anxiety and the difficulty of living through tough times.

I mean, remember when -- remember - but I mean, reading about JFK saying after those first few months he wanted to reach out after the Bay of Pigs to presidents Eisenhower and Nixon, because he knew after those first few months, what it was like to be president and they knew that as well.

You know, one of the things that Abraham Lincoln said is that no man resolved to make the most of himself can spare time on personal contention, on resentments, on temper. We need every waking hour right now focus on this crisis and to the extent that a president doesn't know everything himself and can look back to his predecessors. We need that as a nation so badly.

LEMON: The former new-- former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, saying this is CNN daily D.C. Podcast about the kind of leadership he thinks is needed right now. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FORMER GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ): We are being faced right now in some of the states with paralyzing timidity rather than Churchillian boldness. And that's what we really need and to understand. Listen. When Churchill made the decision to fight, to not give in to the Nazis and they were getting blitzkrieged in London. I bet his approval numbers weren't great.

But, you know, he knew that for the long term survival of the British democracy, he needed to do it. And I think that's what we need from governors now is some boldness and some ingenuity and honesty to the people. In the end, you are going to have to tell the people are going to die. And it's going to be awfully sad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, is the third right could have been beaten by the British people staying inside and social distancing. Don't you think that, that's what Churchill would have rallied them to do?

KEARNS GOODWIN: Oh my God. I mean, what we need more than anything from the governors, and this is what President Bush talked about is an empathy and understanding that we're talking about people who are being brutally affected on both sides of this. Yes, the elderly are being more affected and they may die.

Yes, people who are not working and are unemployed, it's a brutal thing and the governors have to make that horrible decision of what's the timing of when we can reopen and how do we reopen and how do we ensure that the people have the discipline, that they are wearing masks that is social distancing as well as possible. That balancing act.

It's so interesting, because when President Bush thought, was said, he was going to be the one making the decision about reopening. He said it would be the biggest decision he would ever make in his life and he hoped to God he got it right.

We need now is for hoping these governors get it right. We don't need protests that are on the edge of violence against them. We don't need people saying, liberate the states. We need to understand the dilemma there and hope that they balance it as well as they can.

It's not timidity to ask people to care about public health and care about the elderly. But it does have to be balanced with what the people are hurting in the economy. And it's that decision that we have to have some empathy for and hope that each governors, as I said, get right.

LEMON: You're also the author of Team of Rivals, which looks at the Lincoln presidency. I mean, Trump invoking his memory last night when he said this. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Look, I am greeted with a hostile press. The likes of which no president has ever seen. The closest would be that gentlemen, right up there, they always said Lincoln, nobody got treated worse than Lincoln, I believe I am treated worse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Worse than Lincoln?

KEARNS GOODWIN: It's just hard to imagine the president comparing himself to Lincoln, as he's done on several occasions. I mean, yes, they are both presidents, but as a historian, it's hard to see other comparisons and what's not being understood there is that we were in the middle of a civil war with Lincoln.

So, of course the press in the south was not treating him well. That's different from being upset about the way reporters are asking you questions at a press conference. Lincoln and almost all the presidents would argue of course they get mad when the press doesn't treat them the way they want to. But the free press is the center of our nation. And they have to accept criticism as part of what is the whole part and parcel of democracy.

You know, there was a moment when Teddy Roosevelt was criticized by a famous journalist for having put himself in the center in his memoir of every single battle in the Spanish-American war. And the journalist said, he should have called it a lone in Cuba, and everybody laugh at Teddy Roosevelt.

What does he do, he writes the journalist back and he said, I regret to tell you that my wife and my family are absolutely delighted with your review of my book. So, now you owe me one. I want to meet you. Come and meet me in Washington. Use humor. Use a self-perspective. Use reflection. But the press is as essential to you as you are to them.

[22:50:10]

LEMON: Yes. Again, pleasure having you on. Thank you, Doris. I appreciate it.

KEARNS GOODWIN: Always with you, Don. Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you. Listen, I need to clear something up that I heard reported a lot this weekend or at least a number of times about CNN not wanting to interview Tara Reade because last Friday, Tara Reade, who has accused Joe Biden of sexual assault when she worked in his Senate office in 993, cancelled an interview she had agreed to do with me, saying that she wasn't comfortable doing the interview any longer after the former vice president spoke with MSNBC that morning and categorically denied her allegation against shim.

She had previously agreed to talk with me live on my show, Sunday night. Later in the weekend, we spoke again and she told me that she had some security concerns that she wanted to sort out And also wanted to look for any paper work from back then that could help corroborate her story, her side of the story.

Ms. Reade said that she still wants to tell her story and promised me that she'll reschedule our interview. People who are saying that CNN has not asked her for an interview are incorrect. I should note that she's also spoken on the record to my colleague M.J. Lee. So, stay tuned.

Thank you for watching. Our coverage continues with a CNN Special Report: "The Pandemic and the President," right after this.

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