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Don Lemon Tonight

Virus Knows no Boundaries; President Trump Eager to Get the Economy Back; Experts Raise Issues on False Negative Tests; Latino Communities Across America Are Devastated by Coronavirus; Father and Son Were Arrested in Killing of a Black Man; The Coronavirus Pandemic is Wreaking Havoc on the U.S. Economy. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired May 08, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

It's 11 p.m. on the East Coast. And we've got the latest on the coronavirus pandemic for you.

There are now nearly 1.3 million cases of the virus in the United States. The coronavirus death toll is now in the U.S. is now surpassing 77,000.

That as a top aide to Vice President Pence, his press secretary Katie Miller has tested positive. The FDA commissioner self-quarantining after contact with someone who has tested positive. And Ivanka Trump personal assistant testing positive. Though she hasn't been around the president's daughter for weeks.

Coronavirus taking a toll on America's work force. Twenty-point-five million jobs lost in this country in April. The largest single month of job loss since the Great Depression. The unemployment rate is now a staggering 14.7 percent.

The president anxious for states to get back in business. By this weekend at least 47 states will be partially reopened. But health experts continue to warn that many states are not ready and may see a spike in cases in the weeks ahead.

Joining me now CNN's White House correspondent John Harwood, and CNN special correspondent Jamie Gangel, also, Dr. Jonathan Reiner, he is the director of Cardiac Catherization Program -- the Cardiac Catherization Program at George Washington University Hospital. Thank you all for joining us. I appreciate it.

John, I'm going to start with you, because more than 77,000 people have died in the U.S. A record 20.5 million Americans lost jobs last month. The president is trying to distract and focus on reopening. But this virus is hitting really close to home.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It is. And first off, let me start with good news about that hitting close to home. Katie Miller, Vice President Pence's press secretary has just tweeted a few minutes ago that she thanks everyone for their prayers. She said she's doing well. And looks forward to getting back on the job soon for the American people. So everyone including everyone at CNN sends their best wishes to Katie Miller.

But look, here's the reality of the situation, we have talked about it on the show for multiple days.

As far as suppressing the pandemic, President Trump has in effect said I'm out. That's for governors and that's for the federal apparatus below me. That's for public health officials and scientists and people who are going to he hopes come up with a vaccine.

He is directing his efforts as a marketer to talking up economic recovery. Strong economy was his biggest talking point going into his reelection year. He hopes to identify himself with a resurgence later in the year.

What that ignores of course is the obvious reality that public health and the economy depend on exactly the same thing. And that is suppressing the virus. You're not going to have a full economic recovery until people are not fearful of going out.

Polls show people are fearful. And if there's anything that will make them more fearful it is seeing that the virus is inside the White House itself infecting people working very closely with President Trump and Vice President Pence.

LEMON: I'm happy to have both of you on, gentlemen, which I do all the time. But it is so rare that I get to see Jamie. Jamie, it's good to see you. Everything OK? You and your family.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: We have also been hit by this. But it's we're doing OK. Thanks.

LEMON: I'm not glad you have been hit by. But I'm glad that you're doing OK. So, and again, it's good to see you.

So, let's talk about the news now. Because we're also learning that the FDA chief is going to be self-quarantining after coming in contact with someone who has tested positive. Is anyone else going to do this?

[23:05:02]

GANGEL: Of course, they should, Don, the question is will they. He did the responsible thing to do. That's what the White House guidelines are. The CDC guidelines are. People should quarantine for 14 days.

But I've talked to people very familiar with White House staffers and here's something to think about, they didn't leave their desks today and go home and self-quarantine. They stayed and worked. These are people who were in contact with Katie Miller and with her husband Stephen Miller.

So, what do we know? Katie Miller was in contact with the vice president. The task force. Dr. Fauci, Dr. Birx. Stephen Miller is in touch -- in contact with the president. Other senior staff. All those people are potentially exposed.

But my sources say that they think they're going back to their desks. Either over the weekend or on Monday. So, we'll wait to see but right now they're not following the White House guidelines.

LEMON: OK. Let's talk about that then. Because there may be confirmed cases in the White House but the president is still not wearing a mask. You have been talking to your sources. Any chance that this changes, Jamie?

GANGEL: So, we have seen a little bit. We know that the valets are now wearing the mask. But when I talked to people who are familiar with how the staff feels. What they say is it's very difficult. The president doesn't want to wear a mask. He doesn't want to look around him and see people wearing masks.

That said, I will tell you the White House staffers they're like all of us. Nobody wants to get sick. Now it's hit home and I think that if the president and the vice president would say wear a mask, they would be thrilled to wear a mask. But until we see that kind of leadership, and culture, it's very hard on them.

LEMON: Dr. Reiner, yesterday, Katie -- Katie Miller tested negative. And we know the White House uses Abbott tests that may have a 15 percent false negative. We've discussed that. So, could she have been spreading this virus for several days?

JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Well, we know that people are probably the most contagious the day they develop symptoms. Now we don't know about Ms. Miller's symptoms. But we know obviously that a symptomatic people are also quite contagious.

People are likely able to spread the virus about two to two and a half days before they become symptomatic. So, there's a big-time window.

Now I find it actually ironic now that the White House which has really talked down the notion of massively expanding testing to asymptomatic people is really actually using Paul Romer's model in terms of testing everybody at the White House to try and contain the pandemic.

That's what Dr. Romer is recommending on a national scale. Wouldn't we like to do that in our nursing homes to protect our parents? Test all the staff. Multiple times during the week. How about in the hospitals so I can protect myself and my teammates? How about in the community? How about in restaurants?

But the White House is utilizing that exact strategy now to try and protect the president. I don't fault it. But that's what we should be doing on a national scale.

LEMON: OK. So, doctor, there are confirmed cases of coronavirus inside the White House now. Does that mean there could be a cluster?

REINER: The virus is inside the White House. So now the White House is going to have to try and do contact tracing. This is what epidemiologists have been insisting that in order for states to open states need to be able to do on a massive scale. Do contact tracing.

So, the White House needs to contact every person that the president's valet encountered during the period he may have been infectious. They have to track down every person that Ms. Miller interacted with during the period where she may have been infectious. And then track down all those contacts and their contacts. This is contact tracing. This is epidemiology. This is how you put the virus down.

LEMON: So, doctor.

REINER: But I think it's incredibly likely that there's -- that there are more people at the White House that are infected.

LEMON: So if it's good enough for the White House, if the president can be tested every day, and everyone in the White House can be tested every day, and they are going to have to do contact tracing, so then what is it, why is it good enough for the rest of the country? Why should not be happening for everybody in the country? Are their lives any more important than ours? I don't think so.

[23:09:58]

REINER: Look, you know, someone needs to ask how many of these Abbott systems do they have at the White House. The rapid assay that they've been using to screen visitors and today the press can only process four tests per hour.

So, if you think about, if you think about that, they must have quite a few systems. You know, maybe 10, 20. Who knows how many systems they have? Again, I don't fault that, but I want to see this kind of technology disseminated throughout our communities.

If you want to ask how we open up our country, we open it up by investing, as Dr. Romer said, $100 billion in testing. You put testing everywhere. You put it in the workplace, you put it in Rite Aids. You put it in supermarkets. And you test millions of people a day.

And then you only have to sequester the people who are sick. You don't have to lock down the rest of the country. That's the model. But you have to admit that that's the way to do it. And the White House is showing this on their --

LEMON: Yes.

REINER: -- sort of a micro scale.

LEMON: Yes. I want to see that sort of mindset when it comes to everybody else instead of just me, mine and ours.

John, listen, the office reviewing the former federal vaccine chief, Dr. Richard Bright's whistleblower complaint says there's reason to believe that he was removed as retaliation. The president is calling him disgruntled. This is how Dr. Bright responded tonight. This was on CBS tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) RICHARD BRIGHT, FORMER FEDERAL VACCINE CHIEF: I am not disgruntled. I

am frustrated at a lack of leadership. I am frustrated at a lack of urgency to get a head start on the developing lifesaving tools for Americans. I'm frustrated at our inability to be heard as scientists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Dr. Bright is going to testify on capitol Hill next week. How worried should the White House be about this?

HARWOOD: Well, I don't think it's will be a revolutionary change in how people see the White House. We know that this is a president who does not defer to science in the way that we expect presidents do. We see that at those daily coronavirus briefings which have been discontinued where he would routinely disagree with Tony Fauci in his assessments of various things.

He disagreed with a nurse in the Oval Office the other day about whether PPE was available readily to nurses across the country. The president occupies his own reality and he doesn't want to be constrained by scientists.

But the fact that Dr. Bright will go and have a platform to make the case that the administration was slow in reacting that it did not take the steps that are needed, which is consistent with what Dr. Reiner is saying right now not taking the steps that are needed to ramp up testing on a national scale.

That will deepen the public understanding that the president is not on the side of the public health officials and the science. That's something that Donald Trump supporters may not care particularly much about. But we've seen his popularity or his competitiveness against Joe Biden decline during this pandemic.

He's now losing nationally. Losing in the battleground states and having more and more of those suburban voters believe that he is not listening to science and public health. It's not going to help him in his reelection.

LEMON: Jamie, the president is trying to rewrite his response to this pandemic but the facts are there were huge missteps.

GANGEL: No question about it. And I think, you know, to John's point, there's one word here. And that is the election in November. There has been magical thinking by President Trump. We've seen it on the numbers. He's revising the numbers now. We've seen it on when he says a vaccine is right around the corner or a treatment is right around the corner.

It's those missteps at the very least are, I think a betrayal of our first responders, our healthcare workers who are putting themselves out on the line. But it's really irresponsible to the country.

But I don't think we should be surprised about this, Don. We've seen it before. But it is disappointing and big picture when we're in the middle of this incredible, historic tragedy and pandemic, it's irresponsible.

LEMON: Thank you all. And Jamie, again our thoughts with you and your family member.

GANGEL: Thank you.

LEMON: And we're glad that at least everyone, everything is working out. Thank you so much. We'll see you all very soon. Have a weekend.

GANGEL: Thank you so much.

REINER: Pleasure.

GANGEL: Take care.

LEMON: We know that we need more testing for the coronavirus but how good are the tests that we have in the first place. Our Dr. Sanjay Gupta has the truth about testing, next.

[23:15:05]

LEMON: Now to the truth about testing. Just how accurate are the tests that are currently available to detect coronavirus? That's a big question on the minds of medical and health professionals in America.

And as chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta explains, they are correct to be concerned.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: If you have heard anything lately about tests it's that we haven't performed enough of them in the United States.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICIES: Today, everyone is so focused on getting tested, they miss the point that a bad test is worse than no test.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: And that maybe another more fundamental problem. Just how good are the tests in the first place?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OSTERHOLM: The FDA basically created a wild, Wild West environment for this testing. Where under their approve process and emergency basis they let tests on the market that basically have a very, very wide range of results.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[23:20:00]

GUPTA: Michael Osterholm is director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OSTERHOLM: The quality of tests right now varies a great deal. And that's a challenge in terms of understanding if you get a negative result is it really negative?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: A molecular diagnostic test can determine if you have actual virus inside of you by drawing a sample from your nasal pharynx, or from your saliva by spinning into a vial like I did, and then testing it for genetic traces of the virus.

How well the test can find those genetic markers is known as sensitivity. If a test has poor sensitivity it will result in too many false negative results. That means too many people testing negative for the virus when they are actually infected.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARY PROCOP, DIRECTOR OF MYCOLOGY AND PARASITOLOGY, CLEVELAND CLINIC: We undertook a study where we looked at over 200 specimens and tested them by all five method. And there are differences between these tests.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: Dr. Gary Procop is head of virology at the Cleveland Clinic. He and his team found three tests that have sensitivity over 95 percent. The one from the CDC, Cepheid and Roche. Meaning they caught nearly all but 5 percent of cases. But the highly touted Abbott I.D. NOW test which can give results in minutes missed up to 15 percent of infected patients.

Another study found that a potentially missed 25 percent of infections. And that's a concern. Because despite their negative test results, those people are actually infected and can still spread the virus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PROCOP: You would never want to use that test to screen somebody in the hospital to put them into a COVID negative unit. Because in that case you can't afford to make a mistake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: In a statement, Abbott said that the type of viral transport media, the chemical used to carry the virus sample could be diluting samples. We immediately communicated with our customers that they should use the direct swab method. The findings of Procop study are still yet to be peer reviewed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PROCOP: Just because we need something put out emergently doesn't mean we should put out things that don't work appropriately.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: When asked if accuracy was sacrificed at the expense of speed, an FDA spokesperson told CNN, FDA oversight doesn't end with an EUA or emergency use authorization. We will continue to track these tests and take action if required.

So, Don, obviously testing is important. We've been talking about that for a long time. But not getting the infection is still the ultimate goal. So, you want to do everything you can to protect yourself.

We know in the White House now they are getting tested every day. That might in fact be too many tests. Every day maybe too frequently. But actually, doing everything to slow down the spread within the White House people wearing masks. I mean, I think that's something that we're going to have to see.

Now with regard to the test themselves, there's a lot of people in the public health community that say the FDA needs to be making sure these tests are accurate that they're validated before they go out there. Because as you heard, Don, a bad test can be worse than no test at all. Don?

LEMON: Dr. Gupta, thank you very much. Hispanic communities across the country hit hard by coronavirus both by the virus itself and the economic repercussions. We're going to get the stories behind the numbers, next.

[23:25:00]

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LEMON: As we pointed out night after night on this program the coronavirus pandemic is taking a disproportionate toll on communities of color especially black Americans. But the virus is also having a devastating impact on Latino communities across America. Both in terms of health and family finances.

Here's CNN's Omar Jimenez.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In Chicago's little village, the majority of the population is Hispanic, in a zip code hit harder by the coronavirus pandemic than anywhere else in the state.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEX 'DEMO' RAMIREZ, STORE OWNER: I said they're moving around and I couldn't breathe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: Alex 'Demo' Ramirez (ph) is sick with coronavirus. And says he isn't surprised to see the pandemic's impact on the community. He says no one took it seriously enough in the beginning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAMIREZ: let's just throw off like it's not real because it hasn't affected them.

JIMENEZ: A lot of the guidelines have been, stay home, don't go to work. How many people do you know are actually able to stay home and not work?

RAMIREZ: Not a lot of people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: For those who have to, testing is among their only defenses. This community testing site has seen lines at times around the block since they opened weeks ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: Were you surprised to see the amount of people that were lined ready to get tested when you first opened up?

JEROME MONTGOMERY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PROJECT VIDA: Things don't seem to be slowing down. We had a 47 percent positivity rate. Where anecdotally, the provider at the time when he screened the individuals said only really one-third of those individuals that have showed symptoms. Since then our positivity rate has come up to a 57.21 percent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: Across Chicago, Hispanic residents make up nearly 39 percent of all confirmed coronavirus cases but make up less than 30 percent of the population. Statewide, the governor's office says, Hispanic residents are testing positive about 60 percent of the time.

In other parts of the country like California, 70 percent of all coronavirus related deaths within the 18 to 49 demographics are Latinos. Despite making up just 43 percent of the population.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): That's the occupational side of this. Disproportionate number of black and brown community are not teleworking, are not home working. They are on the front lines.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[23:29:58]

JIMENEZ: In New York City, Hispanics are dying at a higher rate than nearly all other groups and more than twice their Asian counterparts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKIE MIRANDA, PRESIDENT AND CEO, DIRECTOR, HISPANIC FEDERATION: These are the delivery food people, the people that are the day workers, the farm workers. These are people that are working at restaurants. They are essential services. They are not enjoying the protections that maybe in other industries people can have.

JIMENEZ (voice-over): But it's not just health. As unemployment soars to levels not seen since the Great Depression, the Hispanic unemployment is at nearly 19 percent, a record high, and higher than any other demographic. And even for those who are just holding on, life is difficult.

PATTY NAVARRO, MANAGER, BOUTIQUE NOVIAS DAVILA: We're struggling.

JIMENEZ (voice-over): Patty Navarro is the manager at the Boutique Novias Davila. With proms and weddings on hold, they shifted to making masks, donating over 10,000 of them, but now selling for $5 each.

NAVARRO: In this crisis, this is what we get to. OK, this -- this pushes you to do things that you never did before.

JIMINEZ (voice-over): This isn't easy.

NAVARRO: Not easy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People are losing people out here. You now hardly see a loved one. You can't help them. That's the most painful for my family and my friends. They can't do anything for me.

JIMENEZ (voice-over): It's a new reality for an American community devastated by the coronavirus pandemic.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JIMENEZ: Now, when this pandemic began, it was largely described as an equal opportunity offender, affecting people of all backgrounds. The last part is true. But as we have gotten more data, we are starting to see that while this virus is new, it's exposing a lot of health and economic disparities that were largely already there.

LEMON: You know, Omar, you just reported the numbers in Chicago. Latino residents make up 38 percent of all coronavirus cases there. Has that number held steady or is that significant uptick?

JIMENEZ: It's actually a huge uptick, Don, over the course of the past few weeks alone. It was just a little bit over four weeks ago that number was just around 14 percent. And then here we are just a few weeks later that number right around 40 percent of, again, all coronavirus cases in this city of Chicago within the Latino community.

Now, part of that rise is an uptick in the data that has been shared between some of these medical centers to try and focus on racial and ethnic demographics and include them in what is being reported. A lot of it, as we are seeing, these workers carry out some of the essential work that is not able to stop in the midst of this, and we are seeing some of those data points coming to fruition.

LEMON: What's being done to turn this trend around?

JIMENEZ: That's the challenge, right, in places across the country. New York City, for example, Governor Andrew Cuomo says they are going to try and enhance the data that they are sharing to try and change their policy accordingly.

Here in Chicago, they have done something similar. They did that just a little bit over a month ago. I think that's part of why we are seeing again some of this uptick in data, just because that data is actually there.

And that's also why the city is now partnering with local unions to try and help educate some of this essential workforce so they can carry out their jobs as safely and possible.

But, look, that only goes to a certain point. These are jobs, essential jobs that are as risky as ever, largely filled by Hispanic and Latino workers, who in some cases feel like they don't have a choice.

LEMON: Omar Jimenez, city of big shoulders, where Latinos are carrying a lot of the burden, thank you very much. I appreciate that, Omar.

The video of Ahmaud Arbery being shot to death shocked people all across this country. My next guest is a young black man who lives in a small town in Georgia, just like Ahmaud, and he says that he is worried a frightening world is waiting for him, where justice is ignored for people with dark skin.

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[23:35:00]

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LEMON: Tonight, a father and son in Georgia are facing murder charges in the death of 25 year-old Ahmaud Arbery, who was chased, shot, and killed while out jogging. His senseless death is sewing fear among young black men.

I want you to look at this headline for a piece. It is posted on Vox Atlanta. Stare at it. Let it sink in. This is America in 2020. "Like Ahmaud Arbery, I live in small town Georgia. A frightening world awaits." It was written by 17-year-old Terell Wright. He joins me now. It is good to see you, sir.

TERELL WRIGHT: It's great to see you.

LEMON: How are you doing?

WRIGHT: Thank you very much. I'm great. I'm honored to be on. First, I'd like to send my condolences to the family. It's a horrible time for a lot of us in America.

LEMON: Your piece is raw. It's powerful. The shooting of Ahmaud Arbery felt very close to you. Tell me why.

WRIGHT: Well, like him, I live in a small town in Georgia. It's probably not as small, it is Brunswick, but just knowing how close it was, when I saw the video, I felt all types of emotions.

[23:40:00]

WRIGHT: I felt anger, confusion, sadness, and it's just -- it was on my mind all day. I couldn't stop thinking about it. And as I went out to get some dinner for my own family, I saw the police and just like thinking about -- just everything kind of came to my mind, you know.

If my insurance card was in the wrong compartment, if I was driving the wrong way, how it could turn up, and just fear struck me all day. Even today, it is still hot on my mind.

LEMON: Your mom gets so scared when you're home even a minute later after dark. What is she most fearful of?

WRIGHT: That's the thing. She's most fearful of the unknown. Anything could happen. It could be I'm just not picking up and I'm having a good time or it could be even worse news that -- I don't know. It could be something worse. It's frightening for her. It is. And, yes, it's a harsh reality.

LEMON: Does she yell at you -- I remember being your age and maybe even a little bit older. It's almost irrational. You're like, mom, what's wrong, why are you yelling at me? And you don't understand it. But, now, I think you kind of get it.

WRIGHT: I didn't understand it until about 48 hours ago. I was just like oh, my gosh, she's being emotional, you know. You know how we think about our moms when we're young.

LEMON: Yes.

WRIGHT: And now, like now that I have seen this and see this tragic story and in this amazing man who has kids, who has a mother, losing his life to foolishness, it really woke me up. It did.

LEMON: Yes. Well, you know, they say with age comes wisdom. Now, you know, sadly it had to come through this. The father and son have now been charged with murder and aggravated assault in Arbery's killing. Do you think that would have happened had this videotape not surfaced? I don't mean just for the police department, I meant to the general public.

WRIGHT: Absolutely not. I think that injustice here and in America is a huge problem. It's something that we all face, you know. And without proof, it seems for a lot of African Americans, we have to do know that we weren't in the wrong. We have to work twice as hard just to make it out and get a better life for ourselves. And I feel like, just like this video, it's no exception.

LEMON: You also say in your piece that not everything is negative. You say 2020 is also the best time to be a black man. Tell me why you say that.

WRIGHT: It is. It's not a statement that I'm proud to make. I wish it could be better. But, historically, I mean, this is the best time to be a black man. We're finally able to express ourselves and articulate ourselves like you and me are doing right now on national television.

It's a beautiful thing that black men are able to do this and speak up and not be judged for it. And that's why I think it's the best time to be a black man. Although there are a lot of problems and injustices in this world, the fact that you and me are here on television right now discussing them and discussing solutions for them is amazing.

LEMON: I got to tell you something because you're younger than me. But I'm going to tell you. We are going to be judged for it. You will, too. But you got -- you have to do it, anyways.

WRIGHT: Of course. Yes, sir.

LEMON: You have to stand up for yourself and you have to do it despite -- in spite of the fear and in spite of the judgment and just continue to walk in your own truth because there are many people who have come --

WRIGHT: Yes, sir.

LEMON: -- before us who died for this right for us to be able to do this. So keep that in mine. I'm very proud of you. And continue to do what you're doing.

WRIGHT: Thank you very much.

LEMON: And listen to your mom. She knows. OK?

(LAUGHTER)

WRIGHT: She's in the other room right now. I'm sure she's smiling so hard.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: You take care. I'm very proud of you, young man. We'll be right back.

WRIGHT: It's an honor. Thank you very much, Don.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The coronavirus pandemic is wreaking havoc on the U.S. economy. A record 20.5 million jobs were lost in April, bringing the unemployment rate soaring to a level the country hasn't seen since the Great Depression.

Joining me now to discuss is business editor at large Richard Quest and CNN presidential historian Douglas Brinkley. Richard, it's so good to talk to you instead of texting you. I'm so glad that you're well. It is good to see you. It's also good to see you, as well, of course, Douglas Brinkley. We're glad that Richard is on the mend. So, Richard, the unemployment rate is up to 14.7 percent.

[23:49:58]

LEMON: That doesn't even account for the workers who have taken a pay cut or lost hours, right?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN EDITOR AT LARGE: That's exactly the point. The headline number of 14.7 really is probably considerably higher because of the underemployed, those people who are still in job jeopardy. That's the way I prefer to think of it.

Those people, for example, on a PPP scheme who work for a small business where the money might run out. Those people whose companies still haven't made up their mind what they are going to do longer term. So, as a rough rule of thumb, you're talking about one in five jobs probably has either gone or is in jeopardy at the moment.

And that number probably has now almost reached its peak because also, Don, what we saw in this number and I think this is perhaps one of the only encouraging signs about it is that a good 17 and a half million of the 20 million who lost their jobs last month, they say they view this as temporary, which means that their employer has indicated they will go back to work once the economy restarts. It's a small comfort. It's a crumb of comfort but it is there.

LEMON: Douglas, you know, the U.S. hasn't seen unemployment numbers like this since the Great Depression. I mean, you see some parallels here, especially when it comes to race, right?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, yes. I mean, the sheer velocity and magnitude really defies the Great Depression at least in the stock market crash of 1929. There were real jitters in the economy in 1927 and '28. So when things went southward in '29, people were kind of ready for it. This was just the floor collapse and people are now trying to make sense of it.

What's very much the same as the Great Depression is that people of color, African Americans, Latinos, poor people in Appalachia, Navajos, you know, everybody living in poverty just suffered the most. They weren't able to really get any kind of relief until, well, Herbert Hoover remained president.

It was only when FDR came in after a few years that we started finding ways to at least start getting food on the table for so many people that were unemployed and suffering.

LEMON: This coronavirus, Richard, has nearly wiped out a decade of job gains since the Great Depression. I want you to listen to what President Trump said this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (voice-over): Those jobs will all be back, and they'll be back very soon. And next year, we're going to have a phenomenal year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Are these jobs going to come back? And what kind of timeline are we talking about?

QUEST: I heard it. All right, the president is right and he is not. As I said just a second ago, 17 million or so of those jobs probably will come back. Even if it's 15 million, those jobs will come back because these are just companies who literally transferred their wage bill onto the unemployment benefits bill.

And that's what they did, they're allowed to do it, and unemployment was extended and increased. And, therefore, that's the way it was done. However, if we -- let's just say, for the purposes now, we get to 17 percent, say 17-18 percent, the most optimistic end-of-year forecast for unemployment is eight percent. That's the most optimistic at the moment.

So we're looking, perhaps, at getting to the end of the year between 10 or 12 percent unemployment. Now, that leaves a huge number of people still out of work. There will be a bounce back, Don. Yes, there will be, if you like a technical bounce back as things get going.

But where I think there is an element of -- I would say dishonesty, maybe misplaced speaking, is for the president to imply that this is going to all go back to where it was, to status quo ante, it's not. And, this time next year, the level of unemployment will be higher than when it was at the beginning of the crisis, which was in February at 3.5 percent.

LEMON: Wow! Doug, in a web call tonight, the former president, Barack Obama, had this to say about the current administration's coronavirus response. "It has been an absolute chaotic disaster when that mindset of 'what's in it for me' and 'to heck with everybody else' when that mindset is operationalized in our government."

How does this administration response compare with other administrations and other presidents, I should say, facing national crisis?

BRINKLEY: You know, Don, we were mentioning Herbert Hoover and the Great Depression.

[23:54:58]

BRINKLEY: The secretary of the treasury back then, Andrew Mellon, actually advised Hoover, do nothing, we'll get out of it. It was sort of like Donald Trump saying, you know, the warm weather is going to make coronavirus disappear.

It was just foolish and Hoover didn't do anything, and he eventually got punished mightily in the election of 1932. I mean, FDR won 472 electoral votes to 59 of Hoover. Donald Trump is worried about getting re-election right now, and what he hasn't done is put the people first. He is putting the economy but not seeing the link of public health and the people.

Sean Penn was on with the Cuomo show. He was exactly right, what they are doing with CORE. We got to be testing. Trump has reneged on doing massive testing in the country. So, individual communities got to step up and hit high-impact places. Because we can get people back to work like Richard Quest is saying but if we have a second wave, people are no longer going to be back at work. So, it's still all about testing, testing, testing, right now.

LEMON: All right, gentlemen. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Have a great weekend. Richard, stay on the mend. Be safe, everyone. Appreciate it. Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues.

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