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Don Lemon Tonight

More Than 1,300,000 U.S. Coronavirus Cases, More Than 79,000 Deaths; Coronavirus Concerns Inside The White House; Source: Trump Expressed Concern That Aides Contracting COVID-19 Would Undercut Message The Outbreak Is Waning; Three Top Admin. Doctors To Quarantine After Coming Into Contact With White House Staffer Who Tested Positive; Key Coronavirus Model Now Projects 137,000 U.S. Deaths By August; Some States Move Ahead With Reopening Despite Showing Uptick In Cases. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired May 10, 2020 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:00:05]

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT, and I'm Don Lemon.

Our breaking news: a source telling CNN the president has expressed concern that his aide's coming down with the coronavirus would undercut his message that the outbreak is waning, and states should begin reopening. His message: it's all about the message, not the truth; which is that the death toll in this country is getting closer and closer to 80,000, as models continue to be revised upwards. Would you call that waning?

That, as top health officials are going into quarantine, as the Trump administration tries to contain a coronavirus outbreak in the White House itself. The CDC director, Dr. Robert Redfield; FDA Commissioner, Dr. Stephen Hahn; and Dr. Anthony Fauci, all self-quarantining after coming into contact with a person who tested positive for the virus.

Officials haven't said who that is, but we know of at least two people close to the president or vice president who have tested positive.

Mike Pence's press secretary Katie Miller, who was often in the coronavirus task force meetings, and one of the president's Oval Office valets. A Pence spokesman says the vice president has tested negative, and is not in quarantine. White House senior economic adviser Kevin Hassett says going to work in the West Wing is, and this is his word, "Scary."

He goes on to tell CNN this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN HASSETT, SENIOR ECONOMIC ADVISER, THE WHITE HOUSE: I knew when I was going back in that I would be taking risks. That -- you know, I'd be safer sitting at home at my house than going into a West Wing that, even with all the testing in the world and the best medical team on earth, is a relatively cramped place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I want you to take a look at this diagram of the West Wing. You can see just how close together a lot of those offices are. Look at that. But the big question in all of this: how many Americans are going to feel safe going back to our workplaces while the virus is spreading, even in the White House?

While the White House operates on a "Do as I say, but not as I do" policy, some officials telling CNN it was only a matter of time before the virus arrived in the West Wing, where aides have rarely worn masks, and social distancing is recommended in theory, but often doesn't happen. A source telling CNN that the president doesn't want to be near anyone who hasn't been tested, and has bristled when coming into contact with some people in the White House. 11 Secret Service agents currently have the virus.

And get this: he's reportedly asked why his valets weren't ordered to wear masks sooner. Really, Mr. President? You want to know why your valets weren't ordered to wear masks, when you yourself have constantly refused to wear one? Just two days ago, the president refused to wear a mask at an event with elderly World War II veterans.

I've said this again and again, but it is really important. This is about saving lives. Wearing a mask is not about protecting yourself from the virus: it's about protecting other people. And those elderly veterans are at an age group that's especially at risk. Yet, the president ignored that, and made excuses about it later.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, you were with seven American heroes earlier today, these World War II veterans --

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- all in their 90s. Did you consider wearing a mask when you were with them, given they're in that category?

TRUMP: No, because I was very far away. I appreciate the question. I was very far away from them, as you know. I would have loved to have got up and hugged them, because they're great.

I had a conversation with everyone, but we were very far away, you saw. Plus, the wind was blowing so hard at such a direction that if the plague ever reached them, I'd be very surprised.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: "It was far away;" "I was far away;" "It was windy;" "I didn't hug them." Look, we all know masks can be uncomfortable. We all know they can be inconvenient.

Millions of Americans are wearing them anyway, but not the president. He claimed he wore the mask when he visited a Honeywell mask factory last week, even though nobody saw him wearing one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Yes, I put -- I had a mask on for a period of time,

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn't see you with the mask on.

TRUMP: Well, I can't help it if you didn't see me. I mean, I had a mask, but I didn't need it, and I asked specifically the head of Honeywell, "Should I wear a mask?" And he said, "Well, you don't need one in this territory," and, as you know, we were far away from people. From the people making the masks, they were making the masks.

But I did put a mask on, and it was a Honeywell mask, actually. And I also had a 3M mask, and I had about four other masks, but I did have it on. I don't know if you saw it or not, but I had it on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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LEMON: And let's not forget what the president said right after he announced the CDC's guidance that Americans should wear masks in public.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Somehow, sitting in the Oval Office behind that beautiful, resolute desk -- the great resolute desk -- I think wearing a face mask as I greet presidents, prime ministers, dictators, kings, queens, I don't know -- somehow, I don't see it for myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He doesn't see it for himself. Even as the death toll gets closer to 80,000. But in the face of all that, the president having a twitter meltdown today -- well over 100 tweets and retweets on everything from Michael Flynn to journalists he thinks should give back their Pulitzer Prizes -- and tweeting, "So great to see our country starting to open up again," along with a retweet of the reopening of his L.A. golf club, his L.A. golf club.

Can you believe that? And here we go again, comparing himself to the Former President Barack Obama. He just can't quit Obama. His predecessor lives rent free in his head especially after the former president blasted the Trump administration's coronavirus response, calling it, quote, "An absolute chaotic disaster," during a private call with people who worked for him in the White House.

That was confirmed to CNN by three former Obama administration officials who were on the call. So, yes, the president, he's got Obama on his mind -- bragging that he is getting great marks for his handling of the coronavirus and claiming that his marks are better than President Obama's for his handling, Obama's handling, of H1N1 which is, again, fantasy -- something he made up in his mind. It is wrong. The Web site Five Thirty Eight finds just 43 percent of Americans

approve of how President Trump is handling the coronavirus outbreak -- 43, 51 disapproved. This is a CNN poll from November of 2009 which found that 57 percent of Americans approved of the then president, Barack Obama's handling of swine flu, 40 percent disapproved.

And with election day less than six months away, the president continuing to beat the drum for states to reopen ignoring the fact that they haven't met his own guidelines and apparently ignoring the key coronavirus model frequently cited by his own White House. The University of Washington now forecasting 137,000 deaths by August, up from last week's prediction of 134,000.

And that's not the total number of deaths. That's their prediction for the beginning of August. The Director of the Institute behind that model saying this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. CHRISTOPHER MURRAY, DIRECTOR, INSTITUTE FOR HEALTH METRICS AND EVALUATION: We are seeing just explosive increases in mobility in a number of states that we expect will translate into more cases and deaths, you know, in 10 days from now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: A top doctor -- a scientist -- saying increases in mobility, people coming out from under stay-at-home orders will lead to more cases and more deaths. You know, I think we all agree that we want our economy to come back as soon as possible. But is that the bargain we're making now? Reopening the economy and letting more Americans die -- is that our bargain?

Let's turn now to our White House correspondent, Mr. Jeremy Diamond. He joins us now live. Jeremy, good evening to you. Talk to me about your new reporting tonight on the vice president, please.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, as you said, Vice President Mike Pence -- he is not planning to go into self- quarantine after his press secretary, Katie Miller, tested positive for coronavirus on Friday. His spokesmen, Devin O'Malley, telling us in a statement the vice president will continue to follow the advice of the White House Medical Unit and is not in quarantine.

And he also notes that the vice president has tested negative during his daily coronavirus tests thus far and that he plans to be at the White House tomorrow. That is especially notable, Don, given the fact that three doctors on the coronavirus task force, the head of the CDC, the head of the FDA and Dr. Anthony Fauci -- all of them are entering some form of self-quarantine for the next 14 days after they came into contact with the White House official who tested positive for coronavirus.

All of those announcements came within 24 hours of Katie Miller, the vice president's press secretary who is also a spokesperson for the coronavirus task force, after she tested positive for the virus. And certainly, the vice president has been in far more prolonged contact with his press secretary than those three members of the task force.

So, not only a contradiction here, between how Trump administration officials are handling this matter, but also, really, the vice president here going against, it would seem, CDC guidelines, which say if you've been in prolonged contact with someone who's tested positive for coronavirus -- that means within six feet, close contact of that individual for a prolonged period of time -- that you should stay at home for 14 days after your last contact with that person.

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And, Don, we are also learning just now, via our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr, that Admiral Michael Gilday, the chief of naval operations, he is also going to be self-isolating for several days, after he came into contact with a family member who tested positive for coronavirus.

Gilday was not at the White House last night, when the president met with several of his top military leaders, and it would appear that this is the reason why.

LEMON: OK. So, Kevin Hassett was on this morning. Kevin Hassett has said, his words, it is "Scary" going to work at the White House. What is the feeling for people going to work there, beyond Kevin Hassett? I mean, you got -- you've got a number of people, you've got 11 Secret Service agents as of now. I think there were others, Jeremy, who had tested positive, and are now negative. I mean, what is the feeling there?

DIAMOND: Yes, well, there's certainly been a heightened level of concern inside the White House, since not only Katie Miller, the vice president's press secretary, tested positive on Friday, but a few days before that the president's -- one of the president's military valets, who works in the Oval Office, also tested positive for coronavirus. So there's certainly been a heightened level of concern.

We haven't really seen that translate yet in terms of specific policies, beyond the fact that any top official who comes into contact with the president is now going to be tested on a daily basis instead of a weekly basis. So that is one change, but no change, for example, in terms of making masks mandatory at the White House.

We have, however, noticed that Secret Service agents, for example, have begun to wear masks, at least those who are in close contact with the president. We saw one Secret Service agent during the president's meeting with military officials yesterday who was wearing a mask in that room, whereas the day before none of the members of the president's protective detail were wearing masks.

There is also a heightened level of concern for the president himself, a source who spoke with the president telling our colleague, Kevin Liptak, that the president has actually expressed concerns about these aides who have contracted coronavirus; particularly because he believes that this would undercut his message in terms of the need to reopen the economy, and to convince not only the governors of these various states to reopen their economies, but to convince everyday Americans to go back to work.

And, certainly, there is a contradiction in this news that one of these top White House officials has tested positive for coronavirus is, indeed, undercutting that message, because the White House is perhaps one of the places where you have the most protocols in place, in terms of this rapid coronavirus testing, thermometer checks, symptom checks being done at the White House.

And at the same time, governors in many states across the country are beginning to ask workers to go back to work. Many of those workplaces, Don, of course, do not have all of those safety protocols in place.

LEMON: Jeremy, I have to go, because I have a big show ahead, but do you know -- are you observing complete social distancing at the White House? Are they following the rules that they give to everyone else?

I know that they aren't all wearing masks, we can see that from the video from the president and the vice president, and from Katie Miller herself, but are they doing the six-feet distancing and all of those protocols? I know they are supposed to do it, but are they -- are you seeing it?

DIAMOND: Yes, we haven't seen a ton of activity at the White House this weekend, so it's hard to judge. But certainly yesterday, in the president's meeting with military leaders, there was some distancing between him and other military officials, but they were certainly not six feet apart. And last week we saw White House officials huddling together during various events so we'll see if that starts to change.

But, again, the White House keeps pointing us to the fact that the rapid tests are being done, but Don, as you know, these Abbott Labs tests that give you results within 50 minutes, there's a 15 percent false negative rate there. So if a hundred people are taking this test at the White House on any given day, 15 of those might have the virus and are testing negative for it nonetheless.

LEMON: Yes, and a rapid test is not a vaccine. Thank you, Jeremy. I appreciate your reporting, thank you so much.

Top health officials going into quarantine, and the president is worried that the virus spreading inside the White House, as you heard Jeremy say, will undercut his message that it's time for America to back -- to get back to business, and the outbreak is waning, with nearly 80,000 Americans dead.

Does that sound like waning to you?

[20:14:30]

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LEMON: Here's what a spokesman is saying tonight -- that the vice president, Mike Pence, will not self-quarantine despite his press secretary testing positive for coronavirus. And Pence plans to be at the White House tomorrow. I want to bring in CNN's political analyst, Michael Shear and White

House Correspondent for "The New York Times". Also, with us is Dr. Harvey Fineburg, the Chair of the Standing Committee on Emerging Infectious Diseases. Gentlemen, good evening. Thank you both for joining us. I appreciate it.

Michael, I'm going to start with you because your latest reporting with Maggie Haberman says that there is a fear inside the West Wing that the virus is already spreading rapidly. Were the guidelines of wearing masks or social distancing or any of those things happening at the White House?

MICHAEL SHEAR, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, look, that's the thing that's been pretty striking over the last 48 hours is that there have been recommendations going back several weeks at the White House recommending that people wear masks and recommending that people, for example -- urging people to stay home if they feel any sort of symptoms or if they feel ill, to work from home if their job allows them to.

But the urgency that you would expect would have kicked in after two separate people in the White House -- in the West Wing itself -- tested positive in less than 24 hours.

You would have thought that something dramatic would have changed. We saw the three doctors say they are going to self-quarantine -- stay home.

[20:20:00]

But really there are plenty of other people who interacted pretty closely with Katie Miller, the vice president's press secretary, and there seems to be this sort of, you know, decide -- "Choose what you want to do" kind of mentality and approach, and not a whole lot has changed beyond what it was a week or ten days ago.

LEMON: I just wonder what it's -- Michael, you know, everyone -- everyone around America, and really around the world, one person in your office gets -- you know, comes down, or tests positive for coronavirus. The office shuts down, people are disinfected, no one can go to work, they take precautions, and on and on and on. You know what I'm saying.

One person comes in the White House, it's like it's no big deal. And what kind of message does that send to the rest of the country? It's a "Do as I say, not as I do," and they have all the testing in the world at their -- you know, right at their fingertips. Go on, sorry.

SHEAR: Well, I was just going to say that there -- you know, there's sort of two -- there's two things, two ways to look at this. One is just the actual workplace itself, which is sort of mystifying, as you say, how they seem to not be taking it more seriously.

And then there's the political ramifications. And, you know, people were saying to me inside the White House that they don't appreciate the message that's being sent when the president of the United States goes to a factory, doesn't wear the mask, or the vice president doesn't wear the mask.

Katie Miller, who now is sick and has tested positive for the virus, was seen just the day before, talking with reporters within a couple feet at an event with the vice president. She was not wearing a mask, even though all of the reporters were wearing a mask.

And I do think that -- you know, Dan Diamond mentioned the false negative rate. Katie Miller was tested, the day before she tested positive she tested negative. But, as somebody inside the White House pointed out to me, that doesn't necessarily mean that she hadn't been positive for several days and got a false negative on that test.

And so I think there's a lot of both personal fear in people in the White House, who work in that building, and also some frustration about the message that is being sent to the rest of the country.

LEMON: Yes. So, why don't we bring the -- it's a perfect time to bring the doctor in. Dr. Fineberg, the White House is testing, contact tracing, to contain this virus. There are things that medical professionals have been demanding for the rest of the country to open safely: do you think they are doing that for themselves -- what they're doing for themselves that isn't available for everyone else on a broad scale?

It's certainly interesting to me what they're doing. They have access to all of this stuff, but they're not doing it on a broad scale for everybody else. And yet, they're still coming down with the coronavirus in the White House.

HARVEY FINEBERG, CHAIR, STANDING COMMITTEE ON EMERGING INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Well, most of what we've heard that the White House has put into place, the daily temperature checks, the daily testing that has produced these positive results; these are all designed to detect early an infection, but they are really not preventive measures.

They are not the things the CDC has told us prevent the spread. The distancing, physically, one from another; the wearing of face masks; the washing of hands; the cleaning of surfaces: these are the things that actually reduce the risk of spread.

In this instance, you've already been exposed if you were in contact with the individual who has had a positive test, and it's your responsibility, now, to prevent possible transmission from you to others. That's the reason for quarantine. That's why the three doctors have chosen to self-quarantine.

LEMON: The president is urging folks to get back to work, but top doctors on the task force are in self-quarantine. Coronavirus, Michael, is spreading in the West Wing, and their ability to test every day undercuts this argument that it is safe for the rest of the country to open. Right? It is undercutting that.

SHEAR: Yes, absolutely it's undercutting it. And I -- and that -- you know, I think you are -- your earlier reporting was absolutely correct, that the president is both frustrated on a personal level: he is a well-known germaphobe, and I think is -- the closer the virus gets to him, I think he gets more and more uncomfortable.

But he's also frustrated because he is -- every single political bone in his body tells him that the only way that he maintains any sort of support in the country, and even has a chance of reelection, is if he gets the country open again, and open quickly.

And I think he sees, you know, a kind of -- an outbreak. Now, we have a couple of cases. If the days go on, you know, over the course of the next few days or a week, and we get more and more cases, more and more positive tests, I think that will, you know, increasingly frustrate him, as a symbol of the problem with forcing a reopening too soon.

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Because people will understand that if you go back to your workplace too soon, there isn't a way to really contain it. If they can't contain it at the White House, how are they going to contain it at a restaurant or a bar or somebody's workplace?

It becomes more obvious to the public what the problems are.

LEMON: Thank you, gentlemen. Got a little tickle in my throat. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Be well.

States are moving forward with their plans to reopen even as public health officials warn this is a time of caution, a time for caution. We're going to dig into how the death toll projections keep rising as restrictions are lifted. That's next.

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LEMON: A key model cited by the White House upping its forecast of U.S. coronavirus deaths to 137,000 by August, citing explosive increases in mobility as a reason. That, as more governors allow businesses to reopen, even though many states have not yet met all of the White House guidelines to safely do so.

Let's discuss now. Andy Slavitt is here, the former acting Medicare and Medicaid chief under President Barack Obama. Andy, good to see you, thank you so much.

You know, this model is warning of even more deaths, and 13 states are moving in the wrong direction with cases, while 15 are, you know, staying steady. Is the country in the right place to be reopening?

ANDY SLAVITT, FORMER ACTING ADMINISTRATOR, CENTERS FOR MEDICARE & MEDICAID SERVICES: Well, look, this is just really sad. I mean, even before I have think about that question, I just -- I can't let all these big numbers sink in. I remember when we were at 3,000 and we were passing 9/11, and now we're going to be doing close to that every day. And, look, I think the country was founded on the fact that all lives

are created equal. You know, we haven't quite lived up to that vision, but now would be a great time to do that. And I think the way to do that is to very simply follow the map that the White House laid out, which is to say let's get the testing in place, let's do like the rest of the world is doing. Let's get masks and contact tracing in place, let's accept where we are.

And if we do that, we could minimize the death toll and open the economy. It feels like we're rushing it. It feels like we're just -- we're being impatient, and, as a result, we may pay a bigger price.

LEMON: Andy, you know, the White House is trying to strike an upbeat message on the economy down the line, right? Let's listen to this, and then we'll talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN HASSETT, SENIOR ADVISOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: In the jobs report on Friday, almost everybody who declared themselves unemployed said they expect to go become to work in the next six months.

LARRY KUDLOW, ECONOMIC ADVISER, WHITE HOUSE: It's a glimmer of hope. We had -- about 80 percent of it was furloughs and temporary layoffs. That, by the way, doesn't assure that you'll go back to a job, but it suggests strongly that the cord between the worker and the business is still intact.

STEVE MNUCHIN, TREASURY SECRETARY: We'll have a better third quarter, we'll have a better fourth quarter, and next year is going to be a great year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Listen, I mean, it's hard for anybody to predict right now, Andy, come on, because we don't know. We have never been through anything like this, and those guys don't have a crystal ball. They are just standing there -- nothing against them, I'm not saying anything bad about them, but, you know, they don't know.

You say the economy doesn't come back, and I think anyone could -- knows this, until the death toll slows. So how is this going to play out if we see deaths go up from reopening, or even a second wave, or maybe -- or another wave? Let's just say another wave.

SLAVITT: Yes. Well, look, I think it would be in their best interest, the White House, since -- you're absolutely right, they don't know -- to manage it to the country straight. Just tell people the news is bad, and that we're going to get -- come through this, and we're going to make it out, but that the news is going to be bad, rather than what they're doing now, which is readjusting every single time.

And when they readjust every single time, and say it's 60,000, 70,000, 80,000 deaths -- 10 percent, 12 percent, 15 percent, 20 percent unemployment, 25 percent -- it just makes people feel worse. It also causes people to make bad decisions. And if people think that

they are going to be back at work right away, or if they think they can, you know, go outside and start sharing popsicles and Good Humor trucks because they are being told that success is just around the corner, I don't think that's fair to people. I don't think that's leveling with people.

And I think people would rather swallow the bad news once than go into wave, out of wave, into wave, out of wave, back to work, back home, back to work, back home, with more and more people dying. And that's what the absence of a strategy will get us. And, Don, I feel like we're living through the absence of a strategy.

LEMON: Yes. So, here's the thing, though. When you listen to the president and his message, what he says is, you know, people have to start getting back to work, things are going to come back really fast. He knows that they can't come back by the time, you know, November, the election. So he has to say, as a salesman would, it's going to come back next year, we're going to be humming next year.

But if you just look at the numbers, I mean, and just anyone with common sense would know that by next year nothing is going to be humming, when you look at the number of people who have lost jobs. Yes, things are going to come back, because this is -- you know, people had to sit home because they were ordered to stay home.

[20:35:00]

But you look at the number of businesses that have people -- you know, people who have lost their jobs, the number of businesses that are closing, how we're going to have to do things differently, people are going to have to strategize differently. Nothing is going to be humming. Nothing is going to be the same.

It is simply a salesman making a pitch because he knows by the time that you have to hire him for the job or afterwards, everything is going to be different.

SLAVITT: Well, here's the good news for the president. People don't actually expect miracles. The bad news for the president is --

LEMON: Exactly.

SLAVITT: -- he's so predisposed to want to tell us the miracle. Because he's, sort of -- that's sort of in his nature, that's sort of the kind of business person he was and so he will go out and make claims. And people at this point know it's without data to back it up. But there are people who support the president. And there are people who don't support the president.

And I think all that is a little bit to the side. I just think the problem is nobody believes the president. And when he goes out and makes these statements, it hurts him -- it hurts us and it hurts him. And I think we would be, I think, all better off if we felt like he was leveling with us. And I also think that it would be better for him politically. LEMON: Yes. If -- it's going to be a tough road ahead and it's going

to -- but we are Americans. We have been through tough times. And we're going to get, you know, we're going to get through this. And I'm going to be your president and I'm going to make sure that we bounce back even better. Let's just be honest with the folks, right?

Thank you so much, Andy. I appreciate it.

SLAVITT: You got it, Don. Happy Mother's Day.

LEMON: Happy Mother's Day to you and your lovely wife and family and mum and everyone. Thanks so much.

SLAVITT: Thank you. Thank you.

LEMON: Tonight, the Georgia attorney general says that he is requesting a federal investigation into how the Ahmaud Arbery case has been handled. We have got that breaking news. And I'm going to speak to the fiancee of the man who recorded -- you know that shocking video of Ahmaud Arbery's death? She says that he is now facing threats himself.

We're going to talk about that.

[20:37:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The attorney general for the state of Georgia announcing today he is formally requesting the U.S. Department of Justice investigate the handling of the Ahmaud Arbery (event) case. That, as video surfacing showing Arbery walking around a construction site in the lead up to his murder.

Our Martin Savage has been tracking all of this, and he joins me now from Brunswick, Georgia. Hello to you, Martin. Thank you for joining us.

More video has been released from this case, showing Ahmaud Arbery on the day that he was killed. Tell us all about this video, and what the family's attorney is saying about it.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. Good to see you, Don.

So, this video is new to the public; it is not new to investigators. Now, we do not know for certain if the Georgia Bureau of Investigation has seen this video. We have a pretty strong belief they have, but, when we asked if they would confirm, they said they just couldn't at this particular time.

So, what we know about this video footage is that it comes from security cameras, it is on the day that Ahmaud Arbery died, and it shows Ahmaud as he is walking through an unfinished, or home that is still under construction. And the security cameras give you a pretty clear image. It's short, but his family has seen this video, and they positively I.D. him. And what we know is he looked around for a bit, and then he left, and

then he began on his run through the community there. He didn't take anything, and, quite frankly, a lot of people have walked through construction sites out of curiosity, just to see what they look like on the inside. So, at worst that would be trespassing, and that is not a felony, and thereby would not come under the category of, say, Georgia's hot pursuit or citizen's arrest laws that exist on the books.

So that's the story of that particular video right now, that has come to light, and the GBI has said there's other video that is out there that they have been using as part of their investigation, but, again, it's not new, it's been in been in their hands of law enforcement for a while.

LEMON: Yes. Interesting. I mean, I've walked through construction sites or homes that are under construction. So we'll see.

And Martin, thank you so much for your reporting. We appreciate that.

You know, the killing of Ahmaud Arbery has been painful for people around the country. His grieving family, and people who never even met him, but they are horrified at what happened to him.

But it's also painful because if it weren't for the video going public, the suspects accused in this case, in this killing, Gregory and Travis McMichael, they might both still be walking free.

And I warn you, the images of Arbery's murder, they are disturbing, but I think it is important that you see what we are discussing. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(END VIDEO TAPE)

LEMON: The man who recorded that video is William "Roddy" Bryan. He is now under investigation by the Georgia Bureau of Investigations.

His fiancee, Amy Elrod, joins me now, along with Brian's attorney, Kevin Gough. They are together on location, but we have got them seated apart on separate cameras to preserve social distancing.

We thank you both for joining us. You know, it has been a mystery to everyone as to who shot that video, what the relationships -- if there was a relationship between the two men, or whatever it was there. So I thank you so much for joining us to explain to the country and the world, really, what's going on here. So, again, my thanks.

[20:45:00]

Amy, I'm going to start with you. Your fiance, Roddy Bryan --

AMY ELROD, FIANCEE OF WILLIAM BRYAN: Yes, sir.

LEMON: -- started recording well before Ahmaud reached the McMichaels and their pickup truck. Why was he recording? What did he think was going to happen?

ELROD: I wasn't there that day. I was at work. I cannot speak to that. I'm sorry.

LEMON: And he didn't tell you why he was recording or what he thought was going on?

KEVIN GOUGH, ATTORNEY FOR WILLIAM BRYAN, KEVIN GOUGH FIRM LLC: Don, with all due respect, she -- I'm not going to have -- to the extent that I have any control over it -- my client making statements and I can't let you do that. There are potentially privilege issues here and witnesses don't necessarily have the privilege, no pun intended, of choosing when to exercise it.

So, it's impractical to ask her that. I thought that -- I guess there's been a misunderstanding. She's not here for that. But she's here to answer your questions in any way that she can.

LEMON: OK. Well, let me, let me, let me question her and if she can't answer, then she can tell me. So, Amy, listen -- no disrespect to any of you or either of you -- what did you --

(CROSSTALK)

ELROD: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

LEMON: -- what did you come here to answer or to talk about first?

ELROD: Just -- first off, I would like to say how very sorry we are to the Arbery family. The loss of that young man -- as a mother, I wouldn't want to go through the pain that I'm sure they're feeling. You know, our hearts go out to them and just break for them. It's just something I would, you know, never wish on anyone.

LEMON: Do you guys live in the neighborhood?

ELROD: We live in Satilla Shores. Yes, sir.

LEMON: And do you know the, do you know the McMichaels?

ELROD: I know who they are now, but no, I do not -- I mean, no.

LEMON: And you said that you weren't --

ELROD: I understand --

LEMON: Go on, continue, sorry.

ELROD: -- (INAUDIBLE) I came to find out they work for the DA's office or the -- Mr. McMichael worked for the DA's office. But I didn't know anything about them or that they had lived in the neighborhood -- not until after the recent events.

LEMON: Yes. So, Kevin, I want to ask you -- what is the focus of the investigation into your client? GOUGH: Sir, I don't understand why he's the focus or the target of

this investigation. He has fully cooperated with police from day one, from moment one. And he has done everything that's been asked of him.

And until the GBI announced that he was the target of the investigation -- or at least that's the way it came across to me and many other people -- and they have not formally answered my question that I asked on Friday as we are here Sunday night, as to whether he is a target of their investigation or not.

We certainly were surprised at that change of events because there's nothing more that Mr. Bryan could have done to help them. And he remains willing to help them. There are some questions about the video in this case and certainly its publication -- not by law enforcement.

And we certainly want to assist them in any way we can and make sure that they have everything they need. I think they think they do, but I don't think that they necessarily know they do. We're looking for clarification on that.

But we've offered them Mr. Bryan's phone -- Roddy's phone -- if they need it again -- if they need to get anything else off it -- anything they want. But, you know, it's troubling that after he's cooperated the way that he has that suddenly he's gone, you know, in the space of 72 hours from being a witness and a good guy to suddenly being portrayed, not by the GBI, but by others, as somehow a bad guy and someone who should be prosecuted and vilified and held up to ridicule and all these other things being --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: OK.

GOUGH: -- put out there along with a variety --

LEMON: OK. Kevin --

GOUGH: -- of false and misleading statements.

LEMON: All right. Let me jump in here. And I didn't -- because we have a delay, I didn't cut you off.

[20:50:00]

There are several things. You said you don't know why that he's a focus of the investigation. He shot the video of someone's death, and you don't understand why he's a focus?

GOUGH: He's a witness, and he has always been a witness. That's what he is. He was unarmed, he was some distance away: there's no question about any of that. He got a camera on his cell phone, and that's what he has.

The suggestion that he has engaged in any criminal activity is without foundation, and, until Friday, there was no reason to believe anything else. But if the GBI wants to make him a target of their investigation --

LEMON: Hang on -- did he --

GOUGH: -- they can do that, that's their right.

LEMON: Did he call 911 when this was happening?

GOUGH: He does not call 911. To my knowledge, I don't think there's any evidence that he did.

LEMON: Because you said -- you said that he did everything he could, but he did not call 911. But he did record it.

GOUGH: Well, you can't record and call 911 at the same time, not on the same phone. You can't make any phone calls while you're trying to use your phone as a recording device. And, now, there may be some very capable people in your office who can do such things, but I'm representing a mechanic with a high school education, who certainly doesn't have the experience or expertise that other people might have.

And it's obvious from the -- the video --

LEMON: Well, here's what I'm trying to -- this is what I want to say.

GOUGH: -- that he is certainly not -- yes?

LEMON: OK. So, I want to say that, listen, at this point, I think people are happy that this video is out there, right? Because it helps with this case. But I think --

GOUGH: It is the case.

LEMON: But I think people are understanding -- people are having a hard time understanding why it was more important for him to record than call 911. Can you explain that?

GOUGH: Well, I'm not going to speak for him, or relay what he has said, but you have seen the video and you're familiar with the circumstances. It is absolutely impossible, under the circumstances, that people around the neighborhood weren't calling. So there's every reason to believe that that was happening. And Mr. McMichaels himself is on the phone --

LEMON: Did he yell for someone else to call 911? Did he -- is he on the -- is he there saying, "Hey, call 911?" Is he screaming to other people on the -- is he heard on the tape saying that?

GOUGH: Mr. Bryan is largely silent on the tape. But if you were walk -- and you're welcome to come down, as your crew has. You're welcome to walk the neighborhood. But the idea that you're going to yell out of your truck, you know, this isn't New York, with postage stamp-size lots of a subdivision.

These houses are on good-sized lots, and spaced out, so the idea that if he had yelled out his window, "Call 911," I mean, maybe he could have. I think reasonable people would agree that that probably was not an effective strategy.

LEMON: He couldn't honk his horn?

GOUGH: Honk his horn? People honk their horns all the time.

LEMON: Couldn't honk his horn and say, you know, "Stop, Mr. McMichael. Stop. What are you guys doing? You're going to kill the guy, why are you chasing, hey, stop, stop, stop, what are you doing? Don't do this"?

I'm just asking. Listen, I'm not saying -- I'm not trying to convict the guy, I'm just saying that -- but you -- when you brought it up, you said he did everything he could --

GOUGH: Yes he did.

LEMON: -- under the circumstances, and I'm just only asking. You know --

GOUGH: Right. It's a fair question, sir. It's a fair question, OK. In the real world, scary music doesn't play when bad things are going to happen, and events happen very quickly. It's very common for people, victims included, not to know how to react, not to react.

So it's always easy to sit back and look at it after the fact, but it's clear that he is trying to record everything. And he did a pretty good job of it. I mean, the video is far from perfect, and, of course, he couldn't see what was on the video until after the incident. But he certainly was trying to document it. He certainly was trying to document who this person was and what was going on.

LEMON: He couldn't see what he was recording?

GOUGH: I'm sorry?

LEMON: He couldn't see what he was recording?

GOUGH: I'm sorry, Don.

He couldn't stop and look at --

LEMON: He couldn't see --

GOUGH: He can't see what he's got, other than he's holding the phone up, but he's also driving at the same time. So he's trying to capture an image while he has to keep his eyes on the road.

[20:55:00]

Now, regardless of what else is going on, Georgia does have a distracted driving law, and he can't take his eyes off ...

LEMON: OK.

GOUGH: ... the road and he can't operate the vehicle through his camera. I think everybody would understand that. So, he's trying to watch the road. He's driving and trying to get these images.

LEMON: Yes.

GOUGH: But he can't look at them and he can't tell what he actually has until this is all over.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: OK.

GOUGH: And I think ...

LEMON: Well, I -- Amy ...

GOUGH: ... anybody in America (INAUDIBLE) that has been in this experience would feel -- understand that. Sorry, Don. I didn't mean to cut you off.

LEMON: That's OK. No, that's OK. There's a, there's a delay, sorry. Listen, I'm in New York. You're there. And we're working under circumstances because of the, you know, social distancing that we wouldn't have to work under -- I would have you two together and I could -- I would be able to talk to you without this long delay.

So, Amy, listen, I hate to do this. He's an attorney. He's used to these.

GOUGH: (INAUDIBLE) Yes. Say again?

LEMON: Go ahead. Finish your -- finish your -- finish your sentence, please, Kevin.

GOUGH: I'm sorry. There's a delay. I didn't mean to cut you off.

LEMON: OK. Amy, I hate to ask those ...

ELROD: Yes, sir.

LEMON: ... kinds of questions with you there. Because he's an attorney, he can handle those kinds of questions. But you were -- I saw you wiping away tears there, doing it. I don't know if he talked to you about -- what he talked to you about -- your attorney won't allow you to answer those questions. But you're wiping away tears.

What do you want to say to America who is watching this now? Because they're going to have some questions for you and for Roddy.

ELROD: Roddy is a very internal person. He doesn't voice his feelings or anything. Whenever he came home, he was just so emotional. As a nurse, I just wanted to protect him and keep him close -- just hold him. He broke down crying.

And it -- this is awful. The last few days, since last Thursday, the threats that we've had against not only us but our families, our neighbors, even the news crews -- I mean tragedy doesn't need to be treated with tragedy. The threats need to stop. I mean, he -- Roddy's lost his job because

of all the threats, the untruths. And it's, and it's hurtful. It's just, you know, just hard to deal with. I mean, it's, you know, just terrible because, you know, we are scared to go home.

We are scared. I mean, we're living out of my car, pretty much, right now because we can't go home. If we do go home, we've got to run in, grab clothes and then leave again because we feel like our home is not safe.

We can't, you know, we can't celebrate Mother's Day with my family which -- that's very difficult. But then, too, I think on Ms. Arbery not being able to celebrate with her child or young man. You know, it's just a terrible, terrible situation. And my heart breaks for them. And too, you know, I mean, it's just a terrible, terrible tragedy, you know?

LEMON: Well, Amy, listen, again, I'm sorry to have to ask those questions. But, again, Kevin is an attorney and he's used to that. I'm not accusing your -- I'm not accusing Roddy of anything. But everyone has those questions. No one should face threats like that. I feel for you. I just want to make sure that everyone here did the right thing. And to get answers for the American people and to get answers for the Arbery family.

They deserve answers. But you don't deserve threats. No one deserves those threats. This case deserves to be investigated to the fullest. And so, you take care.

(CROSSTALK)

ELROD: Yes, sir. I agree.

LEMON: And I'd appreciate you coming back. And I would also appreciate Roddy coming back --

ELROD: And we hate it.

LEMON: -- as well to speak.

ELROD: We also hate how it's not being handled properly. I mean, you know, we have been (INAUDIBLE) you know, harassed by the DA's office for years.

[21:00:10]