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Don Lemon Tonight

President Trump Accusing His Predecessor of a Political Crime; Wearing a Mask Now is a Must in the West Wing; Dr. Anthony Fauci With Dire Warning for States Not Following Guidelines; Elon Musk Disobeying Lockdown Measures. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired May 11, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

Eleven p.m. on the East Coast. And we've got the latest on the coronavirus pandemic. There are now more than 1.3 million cases of the virus in the United States, the coronavirus death toll in the U.S. now surpassing 80,000.

President Trump wrongly saying again today that anyone who wants a test can get one. Our very own Dr. Sanjay Gupta reports that is still not the case. Although testing has improved.

Vice President Pence notably absent from the news conference. Pence's press secretary tested positive for the virus although Pence himself tested negative again today.

Now the two White House staffers have tested positive. A memo today directs all staff members to wear a mask when entering the West Wing.

At least 48 states are in the process of partially reopening. And that includes parts of New York state. The epicenter of the crisis in the U.S.

Governor Andrew Cuomo saying today that areas of rural upstate New York are clear to reopen on Friday.

Joining me now White House correspondent John Harwood, and former senior adviser to President Barack Obama, Mr. David Axelrod. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining. I appreciate it.

So, John, today the president said, quote, "we have met the moment and we prevailed." The same day that this country's coronavirus death toll topped 80,000. Why doesn't he get this thing is far from over? Prevailed. It almost sounds like a mission accomplished moment. But is it really?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: No. And I think at some level the president does get that it's not going well. He can see his poll numbers and he's declining competitiveness against Joe Biden right now.

But he was talking about testing and we should acknowledge there are some good things happening in testing through the combined efforts of state and federal government. Testing levels are up. Positivity rates are down. That's a good thing.

But Donald Trump can't stop there. He is a marketer. He is somebody who is always selling. And he has to sell the idea that he is successful. More than that I think at a psychological level he can't acknowledge shortcomings in his performance. He has to portray himself as winning all the time. Going along with that is he feels the need to demean people who have been in the office before him.

We saw some of that in the press conference today. And he does that even with people like Barack Obama who is setting ideology aside are so obviously his superior in terms of competence and intellect and decency. So, that's why we got all this nonsense today about Obamagate.

LEMON: David, I want to bring you in because the president was also asked about the claim that President Obama committed the biggest political crime, as he says, in American history. Here's how he answered. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Obamagate. It's been going on for a long time. It's been going on from before I even got elected and it's a disgrace that it happened. And if you look at what's gone on and if you look at now all of this information that's being released and from what I understand that's only the beginning.

Some terrible things happened and it should never be allowed to happen in our country again. And you'll be seeing what's going on over the next -- over the coming weeks. And I wish you'd write honestly about it, but unfortunately you choose not to do so.

Yes, John, please.

PHILIP RUCKER, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF, THE WASHINGTON POST: What is it the crime exactly that you're accusing him of?

TRUMP: You know what the crime is. The crime is very obvious to everybody. All you have to do is read the newspapers except yours.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I mean, you have to laugh.

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: A crime to be named later.

LEMON: Yes, a crime to be named later.

LEMON: And read the newspaper. And the he said except yours. You know there's no there there. But, I mean, it's pretty clear that he doesn't have an answer to the question. He just wants to make the accusation, David. [23:05:01]

AXELROD: Yes, well I think a few things are going on here, Don. One is that he was stung when President Obama spoke to 3,000 volunteers and his comments were leaked in which he was very critical of the president's desultory handling of this crisis.

And very critical of his -- of the decision of the Justice Department to essentially withdrawal from the prosecution of Michael Flynn after he pleaded guilty to lying under oath in two federal court proceedings.

So, you know, the president was very critical. President Obama of Trump. Trump doesn't take criticism well. You knew he was doing to hit back. He sent out like 50 tweets and re-tweets about this over the weekend. And so, this was -- this was, you know, totally predictable.

There's a second thing though that we shouldn't neglect. And that is the history of Donald Trump is that when he has a big problem, he tries to start a dumpster fire elsewhere to distract attention. And this -- this was that dumpster fire. He wants to turn it into a thing.

Now, it will play with the conspiracy buffs in his camp who consume this kind of crap. But for most Americans, it's going to be just a head scratcher. And I don't think just a piece of political advice to the president, I don't think he'll get too far between now and November if he wants to get into a battle over integrity and honest with Barack Obama. That's a losing fight for him with a majority of Americans. And he ought to find another dumpster fire.

LEMON: Well, I mean, listen, it happened when the man was in office. All the conspiracy theories and the fake scandals that they tried to bring up against him and nothing was ever found. And this appears to be another one.

I think it really just guiles him that there was no scandal. That the Obama administration had a scandal-less eight years and this one has just been really just riddled with scandal.

John, listen, I have some new reporting that I want to give you here. The New York Times reporting tonight that Dr. Anthony Fauci intends to issue a stark warning tomorrow when he testifies to the Senate. That's if the country skips over the guidelines to open prematurely there is a danger of multiple outbreaks resulting in needless suffering and death. That is quite a warning.

HARWOOD: It's quite a warning and pretty much everyone with their eyes open understand that it's true. All the public health officials are united in that. Now that doesn't mean that some reopening can't occur. If it's done in smart way and if it's accompanied by continued progress on testing and tracing.

These are the things that you require as we have favorable trends as we head into the summer to sustain that progress. Because the White House Coronavirus Task Force briefings have been sidelined, we haven't heard a whole lot from Anthony Fauci lately apart from some media interviews. But it is doubtless going to be valuable for the public to hear from him in this committee testimony tomorrow.

And underscoring the warning is the fact that he's going to be testifying to a Senate committee whose chairman will be questioning the witnesses remotely because he is in self-isolation because of a staff member positive test for coronavirus.

And all three of the public health officials. Fauci, Redfield, and also Stephen Hahn from the FDA, they're also in isolation because of exposure to positive coronavirus cases within the White House. If that doesn't demonstrate to people the risk of doing this in the wrong way, I don't know what will.

LEMON: David, this is -- this is what he said in an e-mail to the Times. He said, the major message that I wish to convey to the Senate HLP committee tomorrow is the danger of trying to open the country prematurely. He wrote. If we skip over the checkpoints in the guidelines to open America again, then we risk the danger of multiple outbreaks throughout the country. This will not only result in needless suffering and death but would actually set us back on our quest to return to normal.

The interesting part is that a number of these places are opening without even meeting the own -- the administration's own guidelines. But what's your response to this?

AXELROD; Well, the striking thing is that Dr. Fauci who has been very consistent throughout and following the science and being very honest about what the science says, his comments are in stark departure from the kind of guidance that the president himself is offering. That this virus will go away without a vaccine. The implication that we are over the hump.

[23:10:02]

The reality is, and Fauci has been very direct as the other scientists have. This virus is with us, it's out there. It's lurking. We have flattened the curve somewhat by doing what we've done. But if we undo what we've done, and we don't do it in a cautious way with the proper testing and tracing, and so on, we could be right back in the same mess we were in with elevated levels of death.

I mean, 80,000 plus is a appalling enough. But we're looking at a much larger number if we disregard these warnings. And you almost feel that Fauci is holding a lantern up and pleading with the American people to listen before it's too late.

LEMON: Yes. David, John, thank you both, gentlemen. I appreciate it.

AXELROD: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: I want to get our resident fact checker now. Daniel Dale is here. Hello, Daniel. The president is suggesting that more people are dying from shutting down the economy than the virus. Take a listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: People are dying the other route. You can go with the enclosed route. Everything is closed up, you're in your house, you're not allowed to move. People are dying with that too. You look at drug addiction. You look at suicides. You look at some of the things that are taking place. People are dying that way too. You can make the case it's an even greater number.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Give me the fact check here, Daniel.

DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: Don, I have to say first, we don't yet have hard data on the number of suicides or drug overdoses in the last few months. But, at first glance the claim is extremely dubious.

In 2018, there were about 4,000 suicides a month in the United States. There are between 5,000 and 6,000 drug overdoses in this country. So, say about 10,000 deaths per month total.

We're at 80,000 plus coronavirus deaths in two and a half months. So more than 30,000 per month. So, for the suicide and drug overdoses to be greater there would be a tripling because of the lockdown, social restrictions. We have haven't had any report of any kind of, you know, epidemic of, you know, self-harm or drug overdoses because of the lockdown. So, can't say for sure, but it's extremely dubious at that.

LEMON: People are suffering. They're dealing with a lot of issues. Depression and on and on. They're losing their businesses and many people are losing lot of things. But, as you said, the research is not in. And how do you know if it's relatable until you get the research. And that is getting ahead of it at the very least and the evidence just isn't there right now.

Thank you, Daniel. I appreciate that. I want to turn now to Dr. William Schaffner, he is a professor at the division of infectious diseases at Vanderbilt University. Doctor, I appreciate you joining us once again.

So, let me start with getting your reaction to what Dr. Fauci said his warning that he intends to deliver tomorrow, that opening too early without following guidelines which many states are not meeting could lead to needless suffering and death.

WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, PROFESSOR OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: Well, Don, he is singing a song that all of us in infectious disease and public health are harmonizing with. Clearly, we expect that as we open up many people will adhere to the social distancing guidelines. But many will not.

And if that ladder number is really substantial, it will accelerate the transmission of the COVID-19 virus which loves to be transmitted from person to person. It's very contagious. That will be result in more people being sick, more people being hospitalized, and I'm afraid more death.

So that will clearly happen if we're cavalier about opening up. We have to be serious. We have to be careful. Adhere to the social distancing guidelines. The six-foot rule it's the eleventh commandment. The 12th is wear a mask. The 13th is wash your hands constantly. It's really very straightforward. It's the new normal that we have to go up to.

LEMON: Let me ask you about one other thing. Because we're supposed to be in shelter in place of course, but it's like stay at home orders. What about moving around saying, you know, well, I've been here forever and now I'm going to another place and be with a part of my family in another part of the country or the world or another city or part of town. What about that?

SCHAFFNER: So, the first thing I would say, Don, is who are you? Are you very old? Are you a person with underlying chronic illness, such as diabetes, asthma, lung disease, heart disease? You should be cautious. The people you're visiting, do they have those conditions? Because those are the people who get more severe disease.

So, with better be especially cautious as we do that. We can do that if we do it very, very carefully. Let's not have parties of 25 or more, you know, that sort of thing.

[23:14:58]

Small numbers of people. Do it very carefully. Make sure you are conforming with the guidelines and make sure those who you wish to visit also conform.

LEMON: I just find it very odd that, I mean, I part is I understand and that makes sense but people who I'm going to visit my friend in the country, and then they go back to the city and they quarantine with the people that they've -- it just seems like they are not listening and there's a potential of spreading that doesn't have to be there because you want to go visit your friend in a nicer place than where you are. Or a family member.

It seems -- or when two parents are coparenting and they're divorced or what have you and the kids go here and the kids for one weekend another but then all the kids are playing with each other.

So, I'm not getting that part of social distancing as well. I'm having a hard time trying to understand all the stuff and what people think is OK and what people think is not OK.

So, listen, the president was asked today about this inflammatory syndrome linked to coronavirus in children. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We're studying that very closely. And it's been on the radar for weeks actually because we have seen this for quite a while. But it's been very rare. But we're looking at it very closely. It's very important to us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: If they have known about it for weeks, for quite a while, why haven't we heard about it?

SCHAFFNER: Well, that was an unsettling statement and perhaps an overstatement. It's certainly become aware to all of us very recently, and all of us who are out in the practice of medicine. My pediatric and family practice, colleagues, people who work in emergency rooms, for example, are now on the alert for this syndrome. And more cases I'm sure will be reported.

It's very unsettling. The more we learn about this coronavirus, the more its clinical spectrum expands and we have unusual clinical manifestations. This is not a trivial illness because children have died.

So, if there's any hint of this it ought to be reported quickly to the state health department so we get a better idea of how frequent illness is, and of course, people are just now trying to figure out what its actual caused by.

LEMON: Dr. Schaffner, always a pleasure having you. Thank you.

SCHAFFNER: My pleasure, Don.

LEMON: The Tesla CEO, Elon Musk, heating up his standoff with officials in California, announcing he is restarting production against lockdown orders. Is he risking arrest?

[23:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: After filing a lawsuit against Alameda County officials and even threats to move his company out of California, Tesla CEO Elon Musk says he is reopening his factory whether they like it or not.

So, let's get the very latest from CNN's Dan Simon. He joins me now from Freemont, California. Dan, good evening to you. It looks like a beautiful evening there in Freemont, by the way.

So, let's talk about Tesla's CEO Elon Musk, restarting production at his California factory. Give us the latest.

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hey, Don.

This is definitely turned into a very public spat between Elon Musk and Alameda County health officials. Let me explain where I am. That is the Tesla factory behind he. It is turning out Tesla's around the truck. As a matter of fact, we just saw a truck, brand new Tesla's lead.

You got about 10,000 employees who work there. And today, Musk announced that they are actually back on the line. This is what he tweeted. "Tesla is restarting production today against Alameda County rules. I will be on the line with everyone else. If anyone is arrested, I ask that it only be me."

Now he's been very outspoken about the stay-at-home orders, Don. One point he called them fascist. And over the weekend he said he would actually move Tesla's headquarters to Nevada or Texas to which one California State lawmakers replied f Elon Musk. Don?

LEMON: Interesting. Ok, I got a couple of questions for you. So, besides the arrest thing, I mean, Elon Musk, if he gets arrested, he definitely has enough money where he can, you know, bond himself out and take care of this legally.

But what happens if someone gets sick or God forbid, someone passes away because they somehow come in contact with a COVID virus at one if his plants? And then could possibly end up, you know, filing a lawsuit or what have you. I'm not sure how that works. I'm not an attorney. But I wonder if he took that into consideration when doing this. Or just having -- being dealing the responsibility of someone else's life or wellness or health in your hands.

SIMON: Well, it's a good question. We know that he has a repeatedly downplayed the virus. But your question raises an interesting point. And it's why Alameda County health officials are so cautious about a reopening.

I want to tell you a little bit though about Governor Newsom. He's been very deferential towards -- towards Elon Musk, noting that he employs so many people here at the plant. And he's actually said that manufacturing can now resume in California.

So, he has no problem with the plant reopening with some modifications. The question is what does Alameda County going to do. And they put a statement today saying we are actively communicating our feedback and understand Tesla will submit a cite specific plan later today. We don't know if that actually happened.

But it goes on to say, we look forward to reviewing Tesla's plan and coming to agreement on protocol and a timeline to reopen safely.

Don, the best-case scenario here is that the two sides will come to some sort of understanding. Though both declare victory and move on. But we'll see if that happens.

LEMON: And we'll keep reporting. Dan Simon is on top of it. Dan, thank you for your report. I appreciate that.

Next, the race for a vaccine. I'm going to speak to an expert who co- authored an article with Dr. Fauci on how to fast track a coronavirus vaccine.

[23:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The World Health Organization saying 110 potential coronavirus vaccines are in development around the world. Eight of those are in clinical trials including groups from the United States, the United Kingdom, and China.

Here to discuss Dr. Larry Corey, an expert in the design and testing of vaccines, and former president director of the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center. He is also co-founder of the HIV vaccine trials network. Doctor, it's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you so much.

LARRY COREY, VACCINE AND INFECTIOUS DISEASE DIVISION, FRED HUTCHINSON CANCER RESEARCH CENTER: Pleasure.

LEMON: So, you co-wrote an article in Science magazine along with Dr. Fauci and others outlining ways to speed up the process to get a coronavirus vaccine. What has to happen to get a vaccine quickly?

[23:30:00]

COREY: I think we have to had the entire energy of the pharmaceutical industry, the academic establishment as well as government, as well as frankly the people of the United States.

Our goal is really that we don't need a vaccine, we need multiple vaccines. We need to take multiple vaccines, show their effectiveness, do that in a transparent way, show their safety, show that the veracity of the data are sort of spot on, because we have to immunize over four billion adults in the world, and now that we're showing that the virus also severely affects children, it's even more.

So, how do we do this? We have to bring everybody together and we have to essentially march these vaccines in a way that allows multiple vaccines to be licensed, multiple vaccines that need to be manufactured. And the time from licensing to manufacturing to getting it into peoples' arms need to be shortened so that we all can attempt to get back to work and travel and have the kind of existence that we had before this pandemic.

LEMON: OK or a very similar one because I don't think it will ever be quite the same. But listen. Since you mentioned all that, it was -- again, you co-wrote this with Dr. Fauci, right, the paper. Dr. Fauci said late last month that it is doable to have millions of vaccine doses by January. Do you think that can happen?

COREY: Yes, if we have a little luck and we have the strategy as outlined that goes -- say, you know, relatively faultlessly. We are starting one vaccine testing in July. We do have others that are lined up in the fall and early fall and late fall.

Any vaccine trial has to be a randomized control double blinded trial in which you get individual consent. So doing a trial of 25 or 30,000 persons for each trial does take time. But with the right logistics and the right cooperation and we, of course, need the vaccine to be highly effective and highly safe.

So, you can do a vaccine trial in about a six-month period of time. So it is possible, especially if the vaccine is highly effective to at least start moving the needle to have that happen.

There is some sense that you can manufacture a reasonable number of doses so that, again, the time from discovery effectiveness to the time to manufacturing, the time to distribution is as short as possible. Whether that can really be within the first of the year is unclear, but we certainly can try.

LEMON: Right. You said with a whole lot of luck, right? And we certainly wish. We could use some luck these days. Doctor, you know, you acknowledged in your article that we know little about the coronavirus immunity, particularly whether it can prevent reinfection. You're optimistic. Why you're optimistic about that?

COREY: Well, I think that we're optimistic because I think from the data out of Asia, yes, there is an occasional reinfection, but there hasn't been an enormous amount of reinfection. We looked at animal models. We are seeing some of these vaccines that have been highly immunogenic to the levels that if we are lucky, that we do think that we should be able to ameliorate disease, you can prevent infection and prevent forward transmission.

We don't know these things. If we knew them, we wouldn't have to do these double blind randomized placebo control trials. The technologies that we have available are really -- have been shown, with many of the approaches that we're using to be used in other diseases, achieve the kinds of immunity that you would want from other diseases. Some of them are novel technologies. But in animal models, they look actually quite good.

So, there is optimism that this virus doesn't have the kind of genetic hypermutability that HIV has, that the vaccines are directed at preventing the virus from landing on the nose and the lungs and the heart and the GI tract, and that in animal models and the conceptual framework is the drift of the virus has not affected the areas that the vaccines are directed at. So we have optimism.

LEMON: All right. Dr. Corey, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.

[23:34:56]

LEMON: A new prosecutor in charge of the Justice Department is looking into federal hate crime charges. The Ahmaud Arbery case has a lot of new developments. The full story so far, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A spokeswoman says the Justice Department is assessing all the evidence in the shooting death of Ahmaud Arbery. Officials will determine whether federal hate crime charges are appropriate. And the department is considering a request to investigate the handling of this case.

[23:40:04]

LEMON: Tonight, CNN's Martin Savidge on what we know so far.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the video that changed everything in the Ahmaud Arbery case, the one showing his death. (GUNSHOT)

SAVIDGE (voice-over): From moment it becomes public, the investigation that for 10 weeks seemed to be going nowhere, takes off. Shock and outrage bring protesters to the streets. Arbery's family is calling their son a victim of hate.

MARCUS ARBERY, SR., FATHER OF AHMAUD ARBERY: He didn't bother nobody. He is always minding his own business. That's what he was doing when he got lynched. That's what he got, lynched.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): Tweeting, Georgians deserve answers. The governor offers to send in state law enforcement. The next morning, Georgia Bureau of Investigations agents are in Brunswick reviewing evidence. And in less than two days, do what local authorities did not do in two months, arresting the armed father and son seen in the cell phone video confronting Arbery.

VIC REYNOLDS, DIRECTOR, GEORGIA BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: Agents from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation arrest two individuals, Greg and Travis McMchaels, charged with both felony murder and aggravated assault.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): Ironically the case that early on moved at the speed of molasses started because Ahmaud Arbery loved to run.

JASON VAUGHN, BRUNSWICK HIGH FOOTBALL COACH: Ahmaud had amazing speed. I mean just straight fast speed.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): His family says the 25 year-old was in the neighborhood on February 23rd, jogging. This newly revealed surveillance video shows he stepped into a home under construction, looks around, then leaves and begins to run.

Some residents say the neighborhood has seen a string of break-ins but CNN found only one police report for theft in the last four months. Arbery's presence triggers calls to 911.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): And you said someone is breaking into it right now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): No, it's all open, it's under construction. And he's running right now, here he goes right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): OK, what is he doing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): He's running down the street.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): According to the initial police report, Gregory McMichael is standing in his front yard and sees Arbery "hauling ass" down the street. McMichael, who is former law enforcement, and his son Travis grab a handgun and shotgun, according to police documents, jump into their truck and begin following Arbery.

The police report says Gregory McMichael stated that he and his son tried to cut Arbery off at least twice. And McMichael said that another man, William "Roddie" Bryan, in a separate vehicle, tried to block him, but all were unsuccessful.

Eventually, father and son used their truck to block his path. Travis McMichael is on the street holding a shotgun as Arbery approaches at a jogger's pace. Roddie Bryan captures video of the encounter. After three shots, a wounded Arbery stumbles and dies in the street. Bryan shares the video with police that day.

KEVIN GOUGH, ATTORNEY FOR WILLIAM "RODDIE" BRYAN: The first or the second officer on the scene, you know, he invites him to sit in his car, and they watch the video together.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): According to Glynn County Commissioner J. Peter Murphy, who spoken to officers who are on the scene that day, police call the district attorney's office for advice, the same office where Gregory McMichael had worked for years.

J. PETER MURPHY, COMMISSIONER, GLYNN COUNTY: I believe there was direction from the district attorney's office to not execute arrests.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): That all changed on May 7. But even with the arrest, public frustration continues. Many now want those responsible for handling the case in the beginning to either resign or be fired.

There are also demands for a third arrest of William "Roddie" Bryan, the man behind the video, who Arbery supporters accused of working with the McMichaels to capture Arbery. Bryan's attorney says his client was not helping the McMichaels on the day of the shooting and that instead of being arrested, Bryan should be credited for the video that changed everything.

GOUGH: If he had not videotaped that incident, the only person who really can speak to what happened is dead and will never have that opportunity. So, that video is the prosecution.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): CNN has made repeated attempts to reach the McMichaels and their family but so far has not been successful. Even with the recent dramatic events, supporters of Ahmaud Arbery and his family say they are just the first steps on the road to justice and they're in it for the long run.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE: Today, Don, the attorney general attorney of Georgia, that is Chris Carr, named yet another district attorney to come in and take over this case. That will be district attorney number four. She is Joyette Holmes. She is a D.A. from Cobb County, Georgia, which, as you know, is suburban Atlanta. Don?

LEMON: Martin Savidge, thank you very much. Ahmaud's father is calling this a modern day lynching. I'm going to ask Van Jones about that and we're going to talk. The color of COVID, that's next.

[23:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: Tonight, the Justice Department is considering whether it has a role to play in the investigation of the shooting death of Ahmaud Arbery in Georgia. Let's discuss now. Van Jones is here. Hi, Van. How are you doing, sir?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: You know, it's a tough time.

LEMON: Yeah, it is.

JONES: To hear that they have now a fourth prosecutor. Think about that.

LEMON: Yeah.

JONES: There are shootings all the time. There are killings all the time. There is a way these things are handled.

[23:50:00]

JONES: What is it about this case that makes it so difficult for them to prosecute these people who shot this unarmed man? That's -- it's not just a crime. It's a coverup and the fact that the system just cannot cough up the fur ball of a decent prosecution. That's why the Department of Justice has to step in.

But the reason people are upset is not just because of the hate crime. That's horrible. But a two-month coverup and you still can't find a prosecutor. Something is desperately wrong in this case.

LEMON: Well, I mean -- I think it's fairly obvious, right? I mean, if you have that many -- right -- you go through that many prosecutors, you take that long to make an arrest, you keep looking at the video, trying to find things. OK, someone looks at a house that's under construction. Who doesn't do that? I've done that.

JONES: Right.

LEMON: You've done that. People have done it to my house when it was being renovated. I mean, that's just kind of what we do. We figure, oh, doors are open, windows are open. Who knows? Look, I don't know what happened, but it's fairly obvious what is going on in this particular case.

Listen. But I -- it's finally getting the attention that it needs. We were so consumed, right, by coronavirus. I mean, this is unprecedented, uncharted waters. We have never been in this place before. We can understand that. But we could have taken more room, I agree, to deal with this case. Do you think it's because of this tape that the shooting has become -- is becoming public?

JONES: Absolutely. Listen. The scary part of this is, had you not had that videotape, it would just been, you know, a black man being accused of doing something and something the white people had to defend themselves against. And the family would know better, but the world wouldn't know better and this thing would have gone on. The only reason we're dealing with this, that's why people are upset, you have this hate crime, the miracle of video, and still a two-month coverup and you still can't find a prosecutor. That -- there's something about the message it sends that's so chilling.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

JONES: Is that our lives are worth less. That you can do something as innocent as go jogging, look at a house, and now, looking at a house is now a capital crime? You can be shot down in the street like a dog because you looked at a house? Even at trespassing. You know what that is? It's a ticket. It's not -- it's not a --

LEMON: Van, I said even if the guy is running down the street with a television, does that mean that he should be executed? No.

JONES: No.

LEMON: I mean, they talked about the guy, how they grabbed his shotgun. They said they didn't know if he was armed or not. He said the other night, they saw the same male and he stuck his hand down his pants, which led them to believe the male was armed.

(LAUGHTER)

JONES: You know, some people seem to be obsessed with certain topics.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: I mean -- it's ridiculous.

JONES: Yeah.

LEMON: Yeah. It's all I can say. It's like you can't -- nobody can put their hands down their own pants or whatever. Just, you know, anyways. So, listen, President Trump was asked today about the video that shows the shooting of Arbery. Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think it's horrible and it's certainly being looked at by many people. I'm speaking to many people about it. He looked -- I saw the picture of him in his tuxedo. It was so beautiful. I mean, he looks like a wonderful, young guy. Would've been a wonderful -- I mean, just a wonderful guy.

I saw the tape and when they moved left, I don't believe, when they moved left, outside of the tape, nobody saw what was going on. Nobody saw -- it's an empty spot on the tape, I guess. Now, do they have additional tapes, I hope. But I will say that it's something that, based on what I saw, doesn't look good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So I got to ask you two things here. First, what is he trying to say about, you know, there being a missing part on the tape? Because I think it's fairly obvious to everybody what happened. And, also, why is the president talking about Ahmaud wearing a tuxedo? Like, what he's wearing in the photo makes this more tragic somehow?

I don't know. Explain that. I've been trying to figure that out all day. It's an honest question. I'm not accusing him of anything. I just don't understand it.

JONES: I am -- you know, for me, I think partly of what he's saying is good, which is that this guy was a great guy and, you know, honestly -- usually, they do put up a negative picture. They put up a picture that tries to make the guy look terrible.

So I'm actually glad that they are showing him in a positive light and a good light and the president is referring to that. You know, I think president has to be very, very careful when he starts trying to analyze the tape and that kind of stuff.

[23:55:03]

JONES: Right now, the Department of Justice is still looking into this. Let the Department of Justice do its job so when it comes forward, and hopefully it will come forward and there is clearly a civil rights issue here, don't prejudice in any direction. Let the Department of Justice do its job.

LEMON: OK. I want to turn now before we run out of time and talk about the coronavirus and the outbreaks we are seeing in some prisons and jails. You are a leader in criminal justice reform. I understand that you have an announcement that you want to tell us about.

JONES: Yeah. Look, I am very, very proud to announce that Jack Dorsey, the CEO of Twitter, very well-known person, he's put about a billion dollars toward trying to deal with the COVID-19 emergency and pandemic. But he's given $10 million to the Reform Alliance, the organization that I lead, founded by Jay-Z and Mike Rubin and Meek Mill and Robert Kraft and Robert Smith and a bunch of other people.

Ten million dollars so we can get masks and other PPE into every jail and every prison in the country. People don't understand. You got 7,000 jails and prisons in the country. There has been no flattening of the curve in those jails and prisons. None.

In fact, the rate of infection continues to go up, which means every one of those jails and prisons, they are all over the country, could turn into a New York City overnight.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

JONES: And so you got to get something done. To have a tech titan like Jack Dorsey, who understands this issue of COVID as well as anybody else understands, the prisons are the new hotspots.

LEMON: Yes.

JONES: We got to get people out safely (ph). We got to get masks in to save lives.

LEMON: Prisons and nursing homes. You know I have to go. I am up against the clock, Van. But listen. I say bravo to Jack Dorsey and to you. Can you do me a favor? I've been meaning to text Mike Rubin. Man, killing it with what he is doing. He is amazing.

JONES: Yeah.

LEMON: He's raised hundreds of millions of dollars. I'm so proud of him. I want to get him on the show to talk about it. But he's really done a great job stepping up and you, as well. Van, thank you very much. I got a promo, what we are doing on Friday, make sure you tune in. Van and I are going to host "The Color of COVID" live Friday night at 10:00. Make sure you watch. Thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)