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Don Lemon Tonight
Senator Mitt Romney Getting Into Trump's Skin; Children Targeted With Coronavirus-Related Illness; Dr. Fauci Warns Of Consequences For Relaxing Restrictions; Supreme Court Debates Trump's Ability To Keep Financial Information And Taxes Secret; New Developments In Ahmaud Arbery Case; Ahmaud Arbery's Best Friend Speaks Out. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired May 12, 2020 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
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DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
Eleven p.m. on the East Coast and we have got the latest on the coronavirus pandemic. There are now more than 1.3 million cases of the coronavirus in the United States. The coronavirus death toll in the U.S. now surpassing 82,000.
Tonight, a key coronavirus focus model, forecast model, I should say, often cited by the White House now projecting that 147,000 Americans will die from the virus by early August. That's more than double what that was just two weeks ago. The lead researcher behind the model blames the increase on relaxed social distancing across the country. And increase mobility.
Dr. Fauci testifying before a Senate committee today and warning that states and cities may see a rise in the number of cases if they reopen too quickly. Fauci also saying coronavirus is not under control in this country and that the death toll is almost certainly higher than 82,000.
And we have the latest tonight on the story that we have been brought you on this program more than a week ago. The case of Ahmaud Arbery who was chased down and shot to death while jogging in Georgia in the Georgia neighborhood.
I spoke with Ahmaud's grieving mother just over a week ago and she was pleading for justice for her son. And since then the story has made national and international headlines. After weeks of no attention to the killing, multiple prosecutors, no charges filed. Couple of days later a video of the shooting became public.
Then two men, a former police officer and his son were both arrested. And the more that has happened the more questions there are about exactly what happened that day. Tonight, we're going to talk to Ahmaud Arbery's best friend and the family's attorneys about where the case stands. That's coming up a little bit later on in this hour so make sure you stay tuned for that. But I want to get the latest on the coronavirus now. Joining me now is
CNN's White House correspondent John Harwood. John, good evening. Good to see you.
Time after time today we saw the administration, the administration experts and even some Republican senators express concern. Downright poke holes in the president theories and his pushed to reopen. While people, you know, watching could see that their own eyes, with their own eyes that even the government isn't ready for a return to normal. Masks on. A mostly empty chamber. Video conferencing. Is this what transitioning into greatness looks like?
JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, the other thing you didn't mention was the several witnesses were testifying in isolation because of the exposure to coronavirus positive cases. And so was the chairman of the committee, Lamar Alexander.
Look, we're transitioning to something and Anthony Fauci, in particular, is worried that we might be transitioning to a mess just like we've begun to escape from in March and April.
The question is do you stick with the things that have worked, the mitigation efforts, the social distancing, do you stick with the guidelines that the president and Tony Fauci laid out a few weeks ago or do you throw away.
What's happening with the president is he spooked by terrible economic conditions. Of course, everyone is spooked by them. but the restoring the economy requires getting on top of the virus. And so, the president is anxious about his reelection, he's anxious psychology about being portrayed as presiding over a failed economy so he's pushing people to go forward, and Anthony Fauci used today as a platform to try to say whoa, let's be careful, let's do this right.
He hasn't gotten much of a platform lately from the president because they've cut off the coronavirus briefings and President Trump wants to talk about the economy. Anthony Fauci had his chance to speak today.
LEMON: The Trump administration is claiming victory on testing, John, even though it is still a huge problem. I want you to take a listen. This is Senator Mitt Romney what he said to Trump's testing czar, Admiral Giroir.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): Yesterday, you celebrated that we had done more tests and more tests per capita even than South Korea. But you ignored the fact that they accomplished theirs at the beginning of the outbreak while we treaded water during February and March.
[23:05:04]
And as a result, by March 6th the U.S. had completed just 2,000 tests, whereas, South Korea had conducted more than 140,000 tests.
So, partially, as a result of that, they have 256 deaths and we have almost 80,000 deaths.
I find our testing record nothing to celebrate whatsoever. The fact is their test numbers are going down, down, down, down now because they don't have the kind of outbreak we have. Ours are going up, up, up, as they have to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, you know who is mad about that. I mean, this had to have irked the president. His nemesis Mitt Romney calling out the facts.
HARWOOD: Don, everything in the world about Mitt Romney irks the president. Of course, he was the previous Republican nominee. He is somebody who had the kind of legitimately successful business record that Donald Trump did not, he called out Donald Trump in 2016 as a phony and a fraud during the campaign.
And then he got elected to the Senate and voted to convict President Trump in the impeachment trial, denying the president the blanket Republican support that he craved and he wanted to tout.
Now in terms of his marks on testing today, anyone who is serious in paying attention knows that the president's statement that we have prevailed on testing is flimflam. But Mitt Romney called it out in very sharp terms and it's the more notable because it's a Republican senator.
Most Republican senators are scared of the president. Mitt Romney is not. And you can bet that President Trump is going to tee up one of his crazy tweets to go after Mitt Romney sometime soon.
LEMON: Yes, it was interesting. Because I kept watching saying, how can you ask that question because the chairman of the committee is in isolation. This person is in isolation. That person is in isolation. Everybody is doing this remotely like, the answer to your question is the big picture that you're in right now.
HARWOOD: Exactly.
LEMON: This is unbelievable. John, thank you. I've to get to Larry Brilliant. I appreciate it. I'll see you again tomorrow night.
I want to get now to Dr. Larry Brilliant. He is an epidemiologist and the chairman of the board Ending Pandemic. Dr. Brilliant, thank you. Good to see you.
LARRY BRILLIANT, EPIDEMIOLOGISTa: Hello, Don.
LEMON: A key coronavirus model cited by the White House now projects 147,000 deaths in the U.S. by August. That is an increase of about 10,000 deaths from just two days ago due to -- and this is what they say, increase mobility. Do we have an idea of how bad this could get?
BRILLIANT: If we look back just two months when he hit 35 deaths. And today we have over 80,000 deaths. And the model which initially predicted that we would have 80,000 by August 3. We're now in May. So, looking at it being 137 or 140 or 145,000 deaths in August is
missing the point. Look how fast this virus can go if we're not careful. And as Chris Murray just said to you in your earlier segment, he said the reason that the model is showing increasing deaths is because we are increasingly being more mobile.
LEMON: Yes.
BRILLIANT: We're going places. We're interacting with more people. You mentioned Mother's Day. Mother's Day here was like we forgotten about social distancing.
LEMON: I agree.
BRILLIANT: And we're in a world of hurt. And we're in a world of hurt either way. We should be honest about how hard it is in this economy. It is a difficult choice that we have been put in to because we lost the first two months and we're reaping the problem that is occurred by being late.
LEMON: Listen, I got to tell you about by being here, you know, this is the epicenter, right? New York. I'm concerned that even the governor here, I know that Governor Cuomo has gotten a lot of praise. Obviously, I know him and his family well. I'm worried that he is going to regret opening up so soon. And that he may be facing political pressure, economic pressure or whatever to open back up.
But I just worry especially when the epicenter. And then I look to California. And I look to Governor Gavin Newsom, even, you know, telling the Tesla -- what's his name again, I can't remember his name right now, sorry.
BRILLIANT: Elon Musk.
LEMON: Elon Musk. I have -- telling Elon Musk, hey, listen, you got to shut down the big part. You can do some of it. And he provides a lot of jobs. And L.A. County is saying you're going to be at home until July. I know it's tough for a lot of people but I'm concerned about New York and especially New York City. Do you think we're opening up too soon here?
BRILLIANT: That's why L.A. is saying we're going to continue social distancing because we don't want to become New York. Because this virus when we think of how fast it goes --
LEMON: Too soon.
BRILLIANT: -- you know, (AUDIO GAP) days, it doubles. If we let it loose, L.A. could become New York. I think we're doing the right thing in California out of abundance of caution.
LEMON: I agree. That's why again, I think this -- I think it's too soon. We're going to regret it. I hope we don't. But I really do believe that.
[23:10:04] BRILLIANT: I hope.
LEMON: I have to --I've got to get your reaction to Senator Paul who is a doctor taking a shot at our top infectious disease expert in the middle of a deadly pandemic. Dr. Brilliant, what do you think?
BRILLIANT: What he says, he said that Dr. Fauci, you are not be all and end-all. I'd like to say this to Paul. Dr. Fauci is the be all end all. He is a national treasure, a national hero. We should be grateful he's sticking it out. It can't be easy for him.
LEMON: As simple as that. Thank you, Dr. Brilliant. I appreciate it. A man of few words tonight, but boy, you got the point across simply. Thank you so much. Laconic as they call it, right? Man of a few words. Thank you so much.
New York investigating about 100 cases of a serious illness in children that might be related to the coronavirus. Next, we're going to tell you what we have learned about kids and coronavirus.
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LEMON: We're learning more about the frightening ways coronavirus can affect children. New York State investigating about 100 cases of possible coronavirus related illness in children who showed symptoms similar to toxic shock syndrome and Kawasaki disease.
And that is raising new questions about what it will take to get kids back to school and what that means as more and more states are reopening.
Let's discuss now. CNN National Security Analyst, Juliette Kayyem is here. We're also hoping to get Dr. Leana Wen, a public health professor at George Washington University to join us on the segment. But you know we have, having little technical issues. We're going to try to work it out.
But, Juliette, thank you so much. I appreciate you joining us.
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Thanks for having me.
LEMON: In exchange with Republican Senator Rand Paul, Dr. Fauci warned against being cavalier in thinking children may be less affected by the coronavirus. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): As much as I respect you, Dr. Fauci, I don't think you are the end all. I don't think you're the one person that gets to make a decision. We can listen to your advice. But there are people on the other side saying there's not going to be a surge and that we can safely open the economy.
And the facts will bear this out. If we keep kids out of school for another year, what's going to happen is the poor and the underprivileged kids who don't have a parent that say we're going to teach them at home are not going to learn for a full year.
ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: I have never made myself out to be the end all. I'm only voice of this. I'm a scientist, a physician and a public health official. I give advice according to the past scientific evidence.
We don't know everything about this virus. And we really better be very careful, particularly when it comes to children. I think we better we careful if we are not cavalier, and thinking that children are completely immune to deleterious effects.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK, so what does this mean in terms of being able to reopen schools? Because nothing else can get anywhere near back to normal until the nation's 50 million schoolchildren can get back to school.
KAYYEM: Right. Our economy can't come roaring back to quote the president, "until working parents can get roaring back." And they can't get roaring back unless kids are back in school.
So, Senator Paul did what Donald Trump does in almost all of these conversations. He said he opposes this as a binary choice. Either the kids are out doing everything they want to do or we're all stuck inside together.
And anyone who has to do the kind of planning that used to be my job when I was in government knows that there's, you know, you can be creative. Or you are going to have to be creative and imaginative about how we can deal with school children. And it's going to differ according to age of course. And it's going to differ according to geography.
Not all states are going to be the same. Not all urban districts are going to be different than rural commuter schools, are going to be different than residential colleges. And that's a kind of planning that's going on now.
Fauci just -- I mean, to be clear, Dr. Fauci if he were in charge, it was clear to me he does not want schools to open up in the fall.
That's the take away from me. But if they are going to open up, we have to be creative and careful for the children. Six feet of, you know, try to keep them apart as much as possible. Have tiered classrooms or tiered timing.
Think about ways that, you know, they don't congregate in recess and assemblies. A lot of cancellations of assemblies, rethinking school sports. It's going to be different for our kids. And that's hard for parents to accept. There's a lot of anger out there, but you know.
LEMON: I know. And listen, I'm not a parent but I'm often surprised that -- I shouldn't say I'm often surprised. I'm surprised now at how much parents depend on kids -- KAYYEM: Yes.
LEMON: -- and it's not a fault -- I'm not faulting the parents -- depend on school as some form of child care. Right? Because when they are at work the kids are --
KAYYEM: Right.
LEMON: -- but the parents are at home now.
KAYYEM: Yes.
LEMON: And so, the kids are they're your kids.
KAYYEM: Yes.
LEMON: They're your responsibility. If you want the kids to learn then you've got to sit down with them and teach.
KAYYEM: Yes. It's hard.
LEMON: I know. I know it's hard though, Don.
KAYYEM: I mean, I'm a working mother so I'll push back a little bit. I mean, it's just like, your productivity is at two in the morning, right? Because you got these kids and like kids are older. And we have -- I mean, we have every resource. Just admitted to you, I mean, we're not for one.
Like my complaints are like complaints of being cranky. I'm not, you know, we're not desperate for anything.
LEMON: I got it.
KAYYEM: But I do think that parents have to help kids right now. I think is the sort of adaptive phase that we're entering.
LEMON: That's what I'm saying.
KAYYEM: Yes. We have to help kids. There's only one way and that's through this. There's no going back. Our kid's educational experience will be different.
LEMON: Yes. I got Dr. Wen in.
KAYYEM: She's here.
LEMON: But now you know what the kids are like in the school -- in the school house, in the classroom. So do not complain to the teachers anymore about your kids.
KAYYEM: It is true.
LEMON: Now you know mom and dad. Dr. Wen, thank you so much.
KAYYEM: Good. [23:20:04]
LEMON: And again, Dr. Wen is -- Dr. Leana Wen is a public health professor at George Washington University. So, thank you for joining us.
Doctor, when Dr. Fauci said this today when asked whether a vaccine would play a role in helping children return to school in the fall. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAUCI: The idea of having treatments available or a vaccine to facilitate the reentry of students into the fall term, would be something that would be a bit of a bridge too far.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, you say there's evidence that children can be super- spreaders. What's the risk of sending kids to school before we have better treatment?
LEANA WEN, PUBLIC HEALTH PROFESSOR, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: Yes, there are two risks. We were just talking about the severe effects that kids may have. And we're just now learning about the severe illness that could put kids into the ICU and actually is now killing some kids too.
And then there's also the impact even if children do in fact just have mild symptoms, and most kids will have mild symptoms or no symptoms at all. But even if that's the case they could still become infected at school and then come back home and spread COVID-19 to their elderly grandparents, to members of the community.
We know that with influenza that kids have been the super-spreaders. That they are the ones that become the betters for transmission. They acquire the onus in schools and then transmit it throughout the community.
And really, frankly, without widespread testing and without a vaccine, without a cure, I really don't see how we can safely send our kids back to school. And I'm a working mom, too like Juliette. And I'm very sympathetic to the fact that --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Go ahead, you all beat me up.
WEN: -- we really need to do this. But we have to do it safely.
LEMON: Yes, I agree. Thank you both. I appreciate -- I wish we had more time. But sorry we had a technical problem, Dr. Wen. And thank you, Juliette. We'll see you both soon.
KAYYEM: Thanks, Don. LEMON: The country is focus on coronavirus but there are some other things happening in Washington that had the president's attention. Like a Supreme Court decision on his tax returns. That's next.
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LEMON: The White House pushing states to reopen as Dr. Fauci warns of a resurgence if we move too quickly.
The Supreme Court moving one step closer to ruling on whether he keeps his tax returns secret today debating via teleconference two cases related to the president's financial documents and questions swirling about what exactly the president and all the president's men are up to when it comes to Michael Flynn.
All of these stories have one thing in common in terms of this presidency and how it operates. President Trump needs and wants come first above all else.
Let's discuss now. Our chief national security correspondent is Mr. Jim Sciutto and he joins us now live. Jim, good evening. By the way, he's the author of the upcoming book "The Madman Theory: Trump Takes on the World." I'm sure I'm going to get a copy. Jim, good evening.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: You will. Good to be here.
LEMON: So, throughout this pandemic, the coronavirus pandemic the president has gone from praising himself to blaming others. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does the buck stop with you?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Yes, normally. But I think when you hear the -- you know, this has never been done before in this country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And on a scale of one to ten, how would you rate your response to this crisis?
TRUMP: I rate it a ten.
No, I don't take responsibility at all. We were given rules and regulations and specifications from a different time.
We've done one hell of a job. Nobody has done the job that we've done.
When I took this over it was an empty box. We didn't have testing. We didn't have anything.
We were way ahead of schedule.
The governors are responsible for testing.
We certainly have done a great job on testing.
I think in a certain way, maybe our best work has been on what we've done with COVID-19.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Jim, how does this fit with what we have seen so often from this president? That it's all about him.
SCIUTTO: I'll tell you. The word that came up, I mean, writing this book which is in my reporting every day. And this comes from people inside this administration that serve him at every level is the personalization of the presidency.
One of them is the phrase the hyper personalization. It is about him. You know, the definition of the country's success is him. He claims credit for every success or claims success and claims to be the victim of any crisis.
You certainly see this with the coronavirus. I mean, the string of claims you just put there. But you also see it with an issue like North Korea, for instance, right? You know, the personal relationship with Kim Jong-un. The mixing of his own political fortunes with the country's national security interest.
You see it with the national security challenges like Syria or Afghanistan. You know, talking about the withdrawal of troops from those countries but tie them to his political advantage regardless of the situation on the ground or regardless in the case of Syria and Afghanistan as well, what our allies want on those -- on the ground. Right? The folks who fought alongside us.
It's the hyper personalization of the presidency. And just one more word that came up consistently was the politicization of the presidency. It's always been political but the politization of the facts of this. In the coronavirus the death toll. It's politicized. Played with. The facts of North Korea's nuclear program. Politicized. And that's a real challenge to the running of this country.
[23:29:56]
LEMON: Jim, President Trump's attorneys pushing the Supreme Court to block subpoenas for his tax records today dismissing a House subpoena as unprecedented and arguing for presidential immunity against the subpoena from a New York prosecutor. You say a similar dynamic is at play here. How so?
SCIUTTO: Here's the thing. One of the concerning things here is you expect the president to try to block access to his tax records, try to block any attempt to investigate him. We have seen this across the board, a whole host of subpoenas, including witnesses subpoenaed to the impeachment inquiry over the Ukraine aid hole.
But what's interesting to watch is, of course, a test for the Supreme Court. Does the Supreme Court back up this president on this after Congress -- Republicans in Congress have really been willing to seed congressional power to this president while setting a precedent for future presidents?
There are some Republican lawmakers who have said, listen, you know, this may work for us now, but someday there will be a Democratic president we want to investigate. If we give up these congressional oversight powers to this president, imagine the precedent that that sets for the future. That's the concern here, right, is that you have other institutions and organizations lining up behind him.
LEMON: Jim, I'm sorry. I got 20 seconds left. I want to get this question in about Flynn because he is clearly -- the president is clearly obsessed with this Russia investigation, these new developments now regarding Michael Flynn and Rick Grenell, the acting DNI. Take us through this quickly, if you can, in just the few seconds left. What is he doing to protect himself?
SCIUTTO: Last final attempt to discredit the Russia investigation as a whole. Even now, the very question as to whether Russia interfered to benefit Trump and to do that going after the Obama administration, creating sort of a counterconspiracy, right, here, that they always had it in for him.
But it is interesting tonight you do see a group of lawyers from Watergate just in the last hour challenging this dismissal of the Flynn case here, saying, listen, we didn't do it in Watergate and we shouldn't do it now.
LEMON: All right. His new book, his upcoming book is called "The Madman Theory: Trump Takes on the World." Mr. Jim Sciutto, we'll have you back to talk about that more. Thank you, Jim. I appreciate your time.
SCIUTTO: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you. New developments tonight in the Ahmaud Arbery case: CNN is obtaining the autopsy report, and we are going to bring you those details and speak to the attorneys representing his family. Plus, a friend who has known Ahmaud since second grade is speaking out here tonight.
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[23:35:00]
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LEMON: Disturbing new details tonight on the killing of Ahmaud Arbery. CNN has obtained the autopsy report. It tells us more about what we saw and heard on that disturbing video. Arbery was shot three times with a shotgun twice in the chest, once on his right wrist.
Here's how the medical examiner summarized it in the report. He said this 25 year-old black male, Ahmaud Arbery, died of multiple shotgun wounds sustained during a struggle for the shotgun. Cause of death: Multiple shotgun wounds. Manner of death: Homicide.
Joining me now is Lee Merritt, lead attorney for the family of Ahmaud Arbery, and Chris Stewart, also an attorney for Ahmaud Arbery's family. Gentlemen, thank you both. I appreciate you joining us. It is tough to read that. We saw the video but this explains a little more about what happened and what the medical examiner believes happened.
Lee, you're first. Details in this autopsy paint a grim picture. Shot three times after a struggle over the gun. At least eleven buckshot pellets recovered from his body. What does the autopsy tell you about his final moments?
LEE MERRITT, ATTORNEY, MERRITT LAW FIRM: You know, I was speaking with Cole (ph), my other court (ph) counsel, Ben Crump, and he was just discussing the idea of shooting someone, a person, with a shotgun. That's what they use do to put down elephants. It is a brutal way to arrest a person, as they allege here. It's just -- it is really hard to watch. You see it in the video. This autopsy just makes it so much more real.
LEMON: Yeah. Why would you want to shoot someone for what you think was a robbery or burglary or whatever you thought in your mind? Why would you want to shoot them with a shotgun? It's just unbelievable. And hunt them down like an animal.
MERRITT: I wouldn't give them that they thought they burglarized anything. I don't accept that at all.
LEMON: Why not?
MERRITT: Well, their behavior wasn't that -- wasn't one of someone motivated only by the idea that someone burglarized a property that wasn't even theirs.
The only thing in their police statement that they said they saw was a man running down the road. That is why we have called this from the beginning an old school lynching because what it was, we don't believe this man belongs here in this community. That's more consistent with what they actually did here.
LEMON: Chris, before he was killed, Ahmaud entered this home under construction owned by Larry English.
[23:39:58]
Chris Cuomo asked him about the reports that, you know, $25,000 worth of fishing equipment being stolen from his house. English denies those reports. Listen to this and then we will talk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Didn't you report though that you believe something had been taken from the house but you couldn't identify who did it?
LARRY ENGLISH, OWNS HOUSE UNDER CONSTRUCTION THAT AHMAUD ARBERY IS PURPORTED TO HAVE ENTERED BEFORE HE WAS KILLED: No. That's a false accusation.
CUOMO: Oh, good to know. Thank you very much. So, you never reported anything about any fishing equipment or anything like that?
ENGLISH: (INAUDIBLE) equipment has got blown out of proportion. That was out of a boat, not out of the structure. I'm not exactly sure
when or where that happened. The boat was transported from Brunswick to a location to where we live two hours away. And I never filed a report on that because I don't know for sure exactly where it happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So the only thing fishy here seems, Chris, to be about these reports about, you know, stealing and excuses. What's your reaction?
CHRIS STEWART, MANAGING PARTNER OF STEWART TRIAL ATTORNEYS: It's like in every case where a tragedy like this happens and the person who caused it lies and tries to create false specks. Look at the police report saying that there were a lot of thefts in the neighborhood, a lie, saying that Ahmaud attacked them, a lie, saying that he stole something and they were chasing this known suspect in the neighborhood. It was a lie.
The devil is in the details. And don't remember, Mr. McMichael was a cop. He knows how important it is to be truthful in a police report, and he wasn't. So, if Roddie is saying he didn't know the McMichaels, I don't know why, I mean, the police report is saying, I took part, and who is lying?
LEMON: Again, Mr. McMichael and his attorney had both denied that he took part in the -- they're saying -- he is saying that he only videotaped that, but he has mentioned in the police report Mr. Roddie. Sorry. Roddie as he is called.
So, listen, I got to ask you about -- didn't they say something in the police report that they thought he was armed, Lee, because he put his hand down his pants or something like that? What kind of excuse is that? What is that all about?
MERRITT: They made some weird accusations that some other time, they saw somebody they believed to be him reached down his pants but they didn't see a weapon. And so -- and this instance after they shot him three times with a shotgun, instead of immediately providing him aid as somebody who was attempting to perform a citizen's arrest, they flipped him over to see if he had a weapon, and that was the only thing they ever did with his body, according to their testimony.
LEMON: Chris, as Governor Kemp pointed out, the case has a new prosecutor, which is the fourth prosecutor that has been assigned to this case. You have actually worked with Joyette Holmes in the past. What is your hope with her that now that she is in charge of this prosecution?
STEWART: We're optimistic. You know, I haven't worked directly with her. I know of her work down here with being a lawyer in the same state. But we are optimistic. We think she will do a more effective job than Durden would have done.
We just don't know who knows who in these situations, because as we find out every day, someone knows someone who knows someone. So getting it out the area (INAUDIBLE). We're going to be on her, expecting her to do her job just like we have been on everybody else.
LEMON: Yeah.
STEWART: The same color as we are. We are still going to make sure that she is doing her job in trying to get this family justice. We're not going to be happy until the verdict comes in.
LEMON: Lee, the Department of Justice announcing yesterday that they are looking into whether to -- whether they are going to file hate charges, hate charge crime -- hate crime charges, excuse me, in this case. That's a pretty high bar to clear. Do you think there's enough evidence for it?
MERRITT: I think there's more than enough.
LEMON: Go ahead, Lee.
MERRITT: I think there's more than enough evidence for the hate crime charges. Georgia prosecutors, as you know, can't bring forth hate crime charges, so we need the DOJ to seriously look into that. Hate crime charges are difficult to prove. Typically, they need some clear indication that the motivation for the attack was racism.
We know that they are going to claim here that (INAUDIBLE) by racism but for protection of the property. We will also going to learn that they knew that property to be under construction (INAUDIBLE) when other people on the property. I believe the evidence will show, according to the witness statements we're gathering now, that they didn't react that way when the person was white.
And so if they only react that way to Ahmaud Arbery, the black man running through the neighborhood, then we believe that established the motivation necessary to prove a hate crime.
[23:45:00]
LEMON: So, you believe there were other people who went on to that property? They didn't chase them down in the street?
MERRITT: Yeah. I spoke with at least one young woman who said that she had a dog that went on the property, a white woman. She was actually spoken to by some person. She didn't identify who exactly or positively but that person said, you know, what are you doing on the property? There have been some people on this property. She said, I was getting my dog, and they let her on her way.
LEMON: Yeah. Thank you both. We appreciate it. We'll have you back.
STEWART: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: Next, Ahmaud Arbery's best friend is here. He's speaking out. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Georgia's governor is saying today that the people of his state deserve to know the truth about Ahmaud Arbery's killing and that prayers are -- that the prayers are with Arbery's family and loved ones.
Akeem Baker feels the searing pain of Arbery's senseless death. They were best friends. He joins me now. Akeem, thank you. Are you OK?
AKEEM BAKER, BEST FRIEND OF AHMAUD ARBERY: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
LEMON: I'm sorry about your friend.
BAKER: Yeah. Tough loss.
LEMON: You knew him since second grade. You played football together in high school. You say he was a great athlete, great person. Tell me about the Ahmaud you knew.
BAKER: Ahmaud to me, he was everything I could ask for when it came to friendship. He was the person I could lean on in times of need. He was a person that held me accountable. He always told me things I needed to hear, not things I wanted to hear. He saw the best in me. He saw the potential in me. He saw the greatness in me.
LEMON: Mm-hmm.
BAKER: He would speak highly of me to others. He was a man of principles, loyalty, respect and love. He was a lot of the things that he spoke about.
LEMON: You used to call him when you went off to college because you went off to Morehouse in Atlanta and then you went to Boston. And so you would call him for some of the advice you were talking about, right? And that tough love when you needed it.
BAKER: Yeah. Ahmaud was the person that would call me periodically to check on me, see how I was doing, and make sure I was on the straight and narrow. You know, just to check on me, just to keep my spirits up. We would just share our stories together. He would just -- we'd just talk about dreams, just achieving a lot in life.
He always spoke about how we would both be at the top together some way, somehow, someday. Every call, he just -- before we got off the phone, he would say lo, lo -- Lo is my nickname he gave me. He'd say I love you, bro. He spoke those words. I love you to everyone he came across.
LEMON: His sister was on CNN and spoke to my colleague and friend, Chris. And Jasmine said that he actually -- I'm quoting here. He actually wanted more schooling. He wanted to be an electrician. That's what he was aspiring to be. And I'm thinking that's maybe why he went to look at a home under construction. What do you say about that? What do you have to say to any of that?
BAKER: He definitely spoke about becoming an electrician and just taking up a trade and owning his own business. So, I definitely agree with that statement about Ahmaud just visiting the site just to look at it, you know.
LEMON: I know that you have -- you've got support there. Your former high school football coach is there. Coach Vaughn is there helping you guys get through it.
BAKER: Yeah. And at times just advocating, just make sure everything is being pushed forward. I thank him greatly for that and all he's done. I've shed many tears. I spent a lot of restless nights just crying, just wishing I had another conversation with Ahmaud, wishing I could hug him, wishing I could just give him a high five, just seeing his smile. You know, it would bring my spirit up.
[23:55:00]
LEMON: Akeem, I just have a short time left here. I'm sorry because I'm almost at the end of the show. But what do you want to say to the world who's watching?
BAKER: Ahmaud meant so much to so many. He was a valuable person to everyone he came across. He was a person of love. He was a bright light. He was a bright light in a world of darkness. Continue to keep running for Ahmaud. Keep honoring him in every way possible. I run with Ahmaud.
LEMON: Thank you, Akeem. Thank you, coach. Coach Vaughn, I know you're there. Thank you, coach.
JASON VAUGHN, HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL COACH OF AHMAUD ARBERY (voice- over): No problem. No problem. No problem.
LEMON: Take care of these young people, OK?
VAUGHN (voice-over): I will. I will. I pray for them nightly. I will. I got them. I got them.
LEMON: We're sending love to you, guys. Thank you.
BAKER: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you. If you need anything, you know how to get us. Thank you. Thanks for watching, everybody.
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