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Don Lemon Tonight

Hydroxychloroquine Not Good For People With Heart Issues; Biotech Company Moderna Reports Positive Outcome Of COVID-19 Vaccine Trials; Coronavirus Cases Spike After Mother's Day Services; How Will Temperature Affect The Spread Of The Coronavirus As All 50 States Partially Reopen By The End Of The Week?; New Developments In The Ahmaud Arbery Case. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired May 18, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

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DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Eleven p.m. on the East Coast. We got the latest on the coronavirus pandemic. More than 1.5 million cases of the virus in the United States. Death toll in the U.S. now surpassing 90,000.

President Trump making a surprise announcement today that he is taking hydroxychloroquine. He's been touting the drug as a potential cure although medical experts and the FDA question its effectiveness and warn of potentially harmful side effects.

Studies show that hydroxychloroquine does not work against COVID-19. And that it could cause heart problems.

The White House doctor says that the potential benefits outweigh the risks. That the president is tested regularly for coronavirus and has tested negative so far.

There's encouraging news tonight about a potential vaccine. The biotech company Moderna reports that people in the study who received its COVID-19 vaccine had positive early results that they developed antibodies against the virus.

A company official says if future studies go well the vaccine could be available to the public by January. That is indeed good news.

That, as communities across this country are in the process of reopening even with the death toll rising past 90,000.

Take a look at the scene outside Shady's bar in Albany, Minnesota. Look at that. Local Fox affiliate reporting the state's attorney general ordered them not to open today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The attorney general has just called and then (Inaudible). (END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. Now I want to bring in CNN's White House Correspondent John Harwood, and Dr. Jonathan Reiner. He is the director of the Cardiac Catherization Program at George Washington University Hospital and former Vice President Dick Cheney's cardiologist.

John, you first. Good evening to both of you by the way. John, I'll start with you. Completely unprompted and seemingly deliberately. I mean, he said what, you know, doing this because I want to see your reaction. President Trump drops this bomb about taking hydroxychloroquine, this drug that his own FDA is warning against. White House. What are they saying?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we got a statement from the White House physician tonight, Sean Conley, who said as you indicated at top that he had extensive discussions with the president about what the evidence showed and ultimately concluded that the benefits outweigh the relative risk in this case.

Obviously, the concern that everyone has about this situation is one, potential negative effects on the president's health since he is older, since he does have some heart disease. Common form of heart disease. And hydroxychloroquine has been associated with some heart problem.

But also, the modelling touting this drug for people who also might disregard the FDA's warning and seek this drug and it might be dangerous to them. But I think what happened is the president has got feeling of the wind at his back at the moment.

You got the Moderna news today the potential vaccine. You got states opening up. You've got some positive trends in the states testing rising, positivity rates going down and he wanted to take the opportunity today to say I told you so. I was right about hydroxychloroquine. I'm taking it and look at me I'm fine.

LEMON: Dr. Reiner, to you. Give me your reaction to this letter from the president's doctor. Does it seem to you that the doctor was behind prescribing this drug?

JONATHAN REINER, DIRECTOR OF CARDIAC CATHETERIZATION LABORATORY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL: Yes, I'm sure he was. And in the interest of full disclosure I know Sean Conley and have a lot of respect for him.

Let me echo what John just said. This is a therapy post exposure prophylaxis for which we don't have yet any data pro or c con and known in this country should be doing that.

[23:05:02]

But the president is a unique patient. And I think the story is actually even more interesting than the fact that the president is taking the drug. And I think what it shows us is how worried the White House medical unit was about the president's health. And about how likely they thought it was that he could contract the virus.

If you look at the president demographic, he'll be 74 soon. He's has some history of heart disease and he has obesity based on his body mass index. Those risk factors place him at a high risk of dying should he contract the coronavirus. Probably somewhere between 15 to 20 percent mortality rate should he get it.

So, the fact that he was prescribed this completely unproven therapy, which again I do not recommend for the general public at all. Tells me that they were really, really concerned about him.

The other thing that it also highlights is the dilemma that the president's physicians must have felt. You know, what do they do? Do they give this to him? Do they not give this to him? There are two big clinical trials which should be reporting results in the near future looking at exactly this kind of patient. Post exposure prophylaxis. Do they wait for the results to come out, do they give it to the president now? It's an unenviable job.

And the final piece of this is the risk of the drug have been very well documented in terms of the cardiac risk, the arrythmia risk. But the president is a very unusual patient in that he has 24/7 healthcare with him. Everywhere he goes he has a physician.

So, if I were to consulting cardiologist, I could say to the White House docs, you know, while he's on this drug I want you to get an EKG twice a day. I can't say that for, you know, Mr. Smith who lives down the street but I can say it to the White House docs and they'll get it. So, they have the ability to attenuate the risks.

LEMON: For the average person who, especially a man who goes to the doctor when his wife like yells at him and says, you got to get out of here and go to the doctor once every couple -- I understand.

So, let me just reiterate for what you're saying, OK? The president 73 years old as you say, almost 74. Obese. His physical showed evidence of coronary artery -- artery disease. The FDA has warned of serious heart rhythm problems with hydroxychloroquine.

I just want to ask, you're a cardiologist, a very well respected one. You were Dick Cheney's, right, cardiologist, correct?

REINER: Correct.

LEMON: OK. So, would you approve him of taking this drug -- would you -- if you were his -- if you were his doctor?

REINER: You know, what I -- what I should say with absolute certainty is no. It's unproven. But having been there, it's not such an easy decision. Right? The White House has the ability to take away the risk.

So, what if I tell you now that you have a therapy that has no risk but maybe some upside and you're really worried that the president is going to get the virus and that he could die from it. Now you see what Dr. Conley writes in his note. That when they did their cost-benefit analysis it doesn't weigh as bad as it does for the public. But the public doesn't have what the president has.

So, again, just so that there's no confusion about what I'm saying, the public should not be taking post exposure prophylaxis until we have data that proves that it's both safe and effective. But the rules don't quite apply to the president.

You know, this history of treating the president, vice president a little bit differently, you know, after 9/11, the president and vice president were vaccinated for anthrax. The public wasn't vaccinated for anthrax. The president and vice president were.

And then they were treated with antibiotics to prevent things like botulism and plague. You know, this all sort of wrote under the radar screen. We wrote about it in our book a few years ago. But the healthcare is different for the president and vice president.

LEMON: I get that. But were those proven therapies already. Was that -- were they proven to have worked already. This is an --

(CROSSTALK)

REINER: The vaccine was approved.

LEMON: Yes. The vaccine, OK. OK. Yes, so I understand that. And I, listen, I completely get it. You have a president of the United States. If the president of the United States dies that affects a whole lot more people honestly than if something happens to me. I'm just going to -- I'm just being honest. Right?

REINER: Yes.

LEMON: So, I understand what you're saying. I understand the predicament that the physician is in. But again, this is an unproven drug and perhaps the president should keep his mouth closed about it instead of touting it to everyone. Do you understand what I'm saying?

REINER: Exactly.

LEMON: Yes.

REINER: Exactly.

LEMON: OK. So, John, let's move on and talk about the House Speaker Nancy Pelosi was on with Anderson earlier. Here's what she had to say about the president taking hydroxychloroquine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: He's our president and I would rather he not be taking something that has not been approved by the scientists.

[23:10:03]

Especially in his age group and his, shall we say, weight group. Morbidly obese they say. So, I think it's not a good idea. (END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That is not going to go over well, John.

HARWOOD: No. It's going over very well on Twitter among Democrats. They're thrilled to see Nancy Pelosi punching at the president who has been leveling some wild over the top smears about Obamagate and what President Biden -- President Obama and Vice President Biden did.

Republicans are saying well, you accuse the president of breeching these norms and here you throw this insult at the president. It's not quite the same as what the president says about Barack Obama. She didn't accuse him of a crime but it's a personal insult.

I think the most important audience for that statement from Pelosi's point of view is probably President Trump. And she's -- we'll see if it provokes a reaction from President Trump. He does not take kindly to personal insults.

The one thing I want to add to your discussion with Dr. Reiner a moment ago, and I think it's a very significant point that he made about the fear of the White House physicians about the president's potential exposure here. But the one other thing that would be quite easy for the president to do that would reduce his exposure which he won't do is to wear a mask.

LEMON: Yes. Thank you. She didn't accuse him of a crime but she had accused him of a sin and that would be gluttony. So. There you go. Thank you both. I appreciate it.

A key coronavirus model is revising its projected death toll down. I want to talk about that with Ron Klain who coordinated the response to the Ebola crisis inside the Obama White House. Ron, good evening to you. Let's discuss now.

RON KLAIN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE EBOLA RESPONSE COORDINATOR: Hi, Don. How are you?

LEMON: So -- I'm great. Let's -- and I hope you're doing well as well. So, this coronavirus model revising its death projection down by 3,700 since last week. It's now 143,357 people by August 4. Chris Murray, the director behind the model says that it's possible, that is possibly because people are still wearing masks. Do you worry though that people that they are going to relax about this as the weather warms up?

KLAIN: You know, Don, it's a bit of a paradox. Maybe part of human nature that when we do something and it works, we stop worrying about it so we stop doing it. And you know, that's been one of the challenges. I think the public health officials about this fighting this virus, which is they told everyone to stay home and help bend the curve and people were like, we're home, it's not as bad as we thought it might be. Maybe we should leave.

Then people stop wearing masks and model comes down and people go look, it's not as bad as we thought it should be, maybe we don't have to wear masks.

And so, you know, I mean, it's always hard to prove the counter factual. The fact of the matter is that first of all, I should say, leaving at 140,000 that's much worse than this model showed just a few weeks ago. This number is still way too high. And it's much higher than it should be. Much higher than it had to be.

But to the extent we do good things there's progress in the model. That should encourage us to do more good things not less good things.

LEMON: OK. If I have to wear a mask and I do it all the time and if someone doesn't catch me like with my mask down like, you know, trying to put -- trying to put it on or something or with my -- walking my dog trying to pick up some poop or something.

KLAIN: Yes.

LEMON: But anyways. And I'm seeing so many people who aren't. It's so frustrating, Ron. I want to, and you know, you can't say things to people now because that's how you get hurt. But it is really frustrating to see people walking around like nothing happened.

But let's go on. Talk about this promising news on the vaccine front because this really is good news. Early trial results from drug maker Moderna shows people developed antibodies, neutralizing antibodies that bind to the virus, disable it from attacking human cells. Are you encouraged by this?

KLAIN: Look, I think it is good news. But I think we're going to be on a roller coaster of these data reports over the next several months. And it's important to try to keep level headed about it.

This is a trial of eight people. And so, it's good that the virus -- the vaccine was safe in those eight people. That was what test was designed to measured. Would it hurt the eight people? It didn't hurt the eight people.

They also then saw some reaction, some positive reaction but it's still wasn't really tested. Now it has to go to this test, this efficacy test. It's safe but does it really work? And the signs are positive but it's far from proven.

And so, I think, you know, there's good news out of this. Good news out of the Oxford trial. Good news out of other trials. But I think again there are going to be ups and downs. Most importantly, Don, even when we know the vaccine works, we still have to produce hundreds of millions of doses and then get it into people's arms. And so that is still many, many, many months away.

[23:15:00]

The drug makers themselves say they think the vaccine would be ready in January. But ready and produced and in people's arms are very different things. And so, we're going to have to keep up the fight with the tools we have for many more months before a vaccine is really widely available. LEMON: Yes. Let me just reiterate what you said. Because right now

Moderna has only vaccinated dozens of people. Large scale clinical trials start in July. It's still very preliminary. At what point though does the government decide to start manufacturing a possible vaccine even before they are 100 percent sure of its efficacy. I mean, just so that they have something ready to go.

KLAIN: Yes. I think that this is something that Secretary Azar has addressed in the past couple of days. The new White House Operation Warp Speed addressed the possibility they will start to make the vaccine before it's even proven.

I think this is going to be a very tricky thing. Because which of these vaccines is it. I mean, it's going to be a little bit like watching a horse race where one horse gets a little bit ahead and the other horse and the other horse. There are many of these vaccine candidates out there. And until one gets to the finish line, we're not really sure which one is the right one.

And I think it's good for the government to ramp up. A lot of the key elements of production. Getting all the vials ready, getting a manufacturing plant ready. getting all the different distribution plans ready. And until -- but we have to really know which of these are going to work before you really make the hundreds of millions of doses. That's going to take a long time.

This isn't like calling out for pizza where it's like ready in 30 minutes or less. I mean, this is going to take months and months of manufacturing to get the kinds of numbers of doses we're going to need to get widespread administration to the American people.

LEMON: You got to give me that number in this environment where you're getting pizza that quickly. Because -- I want you to take a look at this. Because you know there is a tweet for everything. And this was during the Ebola crisis.

This is October of 2014. And this is when they were quarantines. And the current president who was just Donald Trump the real estate person back then developer says all the governors are already backing off the Ebola quarantines. Bad decision. That will lead to more mayhem.

So, he was critical of backing off of quarantines early then, but now he's raring to go with backing off of quarantine now. What gives?

KLAIN: Well, what I'd say is Donald Trump was not constrained by the science either then or now. And they are very different circumstances what was going on with Ebola what's going on and now. Different kinds of scenarios, so on and so forth. I think, you know, on both cases Donald Trump was driven by politics.

He was kind of attacking some governors then. he's been attacking some governors now. And I think the best thing then or now would have been to listen to scientists. That's what President Obama did in fighting Ebola in 2014, in 2015. And I think it would be better if that's what Donald Trump was doing today.

LEMON: Ron Klain, I appreciate it. Thank you, sir. I want that number.

KLAIN: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Thank you very much.

Communities across the country expected to be in the process of reopening by the end of the week. But are we paying enough attention to the risks of reopening?

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LEMON: Two separate churches in California dealing with the fallout of the coronavirus exposure during Mother's Day services. One person putting 180 churchgoers at risk after testing positive the day after a service in Beaux County. And officials in Mendocino County linking three cases including a pastor to a live stream event that included singing.

Here to discuss, Erin Bromage, associate professor of biology at the University of Massachusetts at Dartmouth. Erin, good to see you. Doing OK?

ERIN BROMAGE, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF BIOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS DARTMOUTH: Good to see you too. Doing well today. Thank you.

LEMON: OK. Good. Glad to hear. So, we're seeing more and more people going out, states are reopening. People are talking about quarantine fatigue. Do these church service serve -- excuse me -- serve as examples of what can happen if we don't say vigilant now?

BROMAGE: Yes. We really need to think these gatherings of church services or anything that brings a lot of large people together as a potential spot where things can really go wrong.

LEMON: Yes. A key model slightly revising down its death toll. Now predicting 143,000 deaths in August -- by August, I should say. I want you take a listen to what this is the lead researcher -- what the lead researcher told Anderson earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTOPHER MURRAY, DIRECTOR, INSTITUTE FOR HEALTH METRICS AND EVALUATION: There's not a strong correlation where between where mobility has gone up and the trend in cases in death. Even when we take into account the increase in testing. And our explanation for that is if you dig a little bit deeper and look into how the fraction of the population and different states that are wearing masks. We think that's really the key difference there. Both their behavior and mask wearing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Yes. As we see more people in close contact indoors with places like restaurant openings and so on. How critical is it to wear a mask?

BROMAGE: Masks are a really important piece in this whole puzzle of being regaining some normality to our life and stopping the transmission of the virus. Masks stop respiratory droplets being emitted from the mouth somewhere between 20 and 80 percent depending on the type of mask that you're using. So, they are really key pieces of this puzzle to take some of the power away, the fear away from this virus.

LEMON: Thousands came out to beaches in Los Angeles County during the first weekend of reopening. I saw how beautiful that is. My goodness. New Jersey board walks were also busy.

[23:25:03]

Does being outside have an impact on how this virus spreads? One question. And two, do you think people think that they aren't -- that they don't have to wear masks outdoors because I'm seeing it all the time. No one wearing masks or very few people.

BROMAGE: Yes. Being outdoors is a really good way to lower the risk of infection. The amount of the volume of air, the air flow just the limitless dilution drops down the viral burden very, very quickly. So, you now, not getting enough for an infectious dose in most places outdoors.

But there are points outdoors where people are forced together. And it maybe a path heading down to a beach or a trail heading to an open park. They are the choke points, the spots where people come in contact where we have more opportunities for transmission where masks really need to be available.

You need to have a mask to account for those spots when you are outdoors. You may not be wearing it when you're walking along the beach and maintaining a good physical distance. But when you come to that narrow path, when you come to that spot where you can't keep away from someone outside of your household, it really becomes important to have that mask there. Just to show your social conscience and stop transmission.

LEMON: What about exercising outdoors wearing a mask? Or if you're, even in a bikini or -- excuse me -- or jogging or I don't know. Does it depend on what you are wearing does it get on your skin? I don't know. What do you think?

BROMAGE: No. I mean, it's all about how close you come to other people. It's not --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: What about biking?

BROMAGE: Yes, biking, I wouldn't be biking and drafting. You see then someone wait for that long and someone draft for that long you're increasing the risk. But biking and even if a bike rider is coming past you the amount of virus that you can potentially be exposed to and then the short period of time, just is such a low risk for infection.

LEMON: I know people who are afraid they're saying I want to cover up and I want to go the beach. They're just -- they're worried about it being exposed to their skin and on and on.

BROMAGE: Yes, on your skin it doesn't matter. It's your eyes, it's your nose, it's your mouth. You don't have a problem with transmission until you put your hand up and rub your eyes or cough into your hand and then -- that's where transmission occurs. It's not on your skin. You don't have to spend mental energy on that part of -- you don't need to worry about that.

LEMON: So, don't worry about that. OK. Now we know. So many questions. Thank you, Erin. We appreciate it.

BROMAGE: You're welcome.

LEMON: Warm weather has more people outside packing city sidewalks and parks. What the rise in temperatures could mean for the spread -- look at that, folks enjoying -- for the spread of the coronavirus.

[23:30:00]

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LEMON: All 50 states now having put out a plan to reopen as some governors move farther ahead with their phase reopening. With summer quickly approaching, how will temperature affect the spread of the coronavirus?

Here to discuss is Dr. David Rubin, the director of Policy Lab at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. His coronavirus models factor in weather. So, that's interesting, the warm temperatures. Thank you, doctor. I appreciate you joining us.

So, we know that social distancing is really important in stopping the virus. You look at population density and weather as we head into the summer months. How significant is temperature, you think?

DAVID RUBIN, DIRECTOR OF POLICY LAB, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: I think it's an important factor. However, you know, as we look at temperature, we clearly see that it decreases the volume. As temperatures warm, the viability of the virus goes down, particularly in humid environments.

I think we are likely to see a switch over from a lot of the respiratory transmission that we see that can be really devastating to more of a surface contact transmission.

And so when that happens, you know, intensity one to one, people touch a surface, they get infected, but they are not coughing and infecting multiple people around them.

So, it definitely has been helpful. But unfortunately, temperature alone is not going to mitigate the transmission of this virus. We are seeing transmission in warmer environments even in the Southern United States, certainly down in Mexico and other areas as well, too.

LEMON: Helpful but not as much as the cold or the flu that happens every season, right?

RUBIN: Correct. It's just not enough to -- you know, what it demonstrates is that, you know, we -- you take advantage of those warming temps but you have to remain vigilant.

Combining vigilance with the ability to kind of decrease transmission during warmer months, we can get those case counts down and get back to some level of normalcy during the summer, at least for the summertime.

LEMON: I want to put up a chart. It is from your working paper. It shows the effects of temperature on the reproduction number of the virus, suggesting a decrease in the virus at around 30 to 65 degrees, but an increase near 55. So walk us through this. Tell me what this means.

RUBIN: We use wet-bulb temperatures, which have been used in other climate research that combine temperature and humidity. They are a little bit easy to understand. It's not a straightforward interpretation to draw temperatures.

You know, at about 55 degrees, that represents actually about 65 degrees. Ambient temperature in the humidity in the air sort of brings down the wet-bulb temperature.

[23:35:02]

RUBIN: So if you think about that bump that you saw in that graph from about, you know, 55 to 67 degrees, which is about 65 to 75 degrees, what you're seeing there is that for, you know, between 30 and about 55 degrees on those wet-bulb temps, you're getting a nice decrease in transmission that brought about by those warming temps.

But right as you get to the springtime temps, what you're seeing is sort of this confounding effect of people's activity. We call this the Mardi Gras effect. People like to go out. They gather in beer gardens. They gather in beach. And so that increase mixing of people for at least over a brief temperature range actually increases transmission a bit.

But then, you know, that settles out in the higher temperatures, and we are increasingly seeing this in our models. Again, you start seeing the decrease in transmission. And so at the very high temperatures, I think, we'll get some additional benefit, as well.

LEMON: So, several colleges are cancelling their fall breaks for the next academic year and will start remote learning after Thanksgiving. Is that an indication of what's to come for schools and workplaces all across the country?

RUBIN: I think it's smart to be thinking about advanced planning about maybe moving the school year if you're able to, whether you are K to 12 or whether you're university. Getting kids back to school in the late summer, I believe and our team believes is going to be easier, given what we suspect to be lower circulating cases at that time.

But as we get into those colder months, particularly around late November and December, particularly if we don't have an effective vaccine, models actually are much more concerning because we suspect that, you know, we're now moving towards colder, drier air with increased respiratory transmission.

So planning longer winter breaks to avoid a concurrent flu and COVID season seems to be a smart planning.

LEMON: Well, according to your model and what you're finding, let's hope it's a really, really hot summer.

(LAUGHTER)

RUBIN: That's what I said. Actually, it was a humid day here in Philadelphia last week. I never enjoyed a humid day more than the other day when I walked out. I said, finally, because it has been a cold spring here.

LEMON: Yeah. Thank you, doctor. I appreciate your time.

RUBIN: Anytime.

LEMON: New developments in the Ahmaud Arbery case. There is a newly uncovered video. I'm going to talk to the attorney representing Arbery's family. That's next.

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[23:40:00]

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LEMON: So, here is our breaking news tonight in the investigation of the killing of Ahmaud Arbery. The attorney for the man who filmed Arbery's killing announced the results of a polygraph test his client voluntarily took. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN GOUGH, ATTORNEY FOR WILLIAM "RODDIE" BRYAN: Contrary to speculation, the polygraph examination confirms that William "Roddie" Bryan was unarmed at the time of the shooting.

Contrary to speculation, the polygraph examination confirms that on February 23, 2020, the day of the shooting, William "Roddie" Bryan did not have any conversation with either Gregory or Travis McMichael prior to the shooting, nor did William "Roddie" Bryan had any conversation with anyone else that day prior to the shooting about criminal activity in the neighborhood.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Let's talk more about this with Lee Merritt, lead attorney for the family of Ahmaud Arbery. Lee, good evening to you. That was Kevin Gough, the attorney for William "Roddie" Bryan.

He says that the Georgia Bureau of Investigations has the result of the polygraph test his client voluntarily submitted that he says proves his client -- that he was unarmed at that time. Give me your response, please.

LEE MERRITT, ATTORNEY, MERRITT LAW FIRM: So, there is no courtroom in America where polygraph testimony is submitted because it is unreliable. More importantly, all we have to do is look at the facts. Roddie is not being accused of doing something that there is not proof of.

It's almost like he and his attorney don't appreciate that when he got in his truck and followed Ahmaud around, it didn't matter if he had a gun or if he believed that, you know, he was using his gun in a threatening manner. It doesn't matter if he believed that he contacted the McMichaels before.

He recorded a man being murdered. He didn't flinch. He recorded it from feet away. He chased this man around in his truck. The police report that he had a chance to review the day of says that he used his truck to block Ahmaud. He participated in this ambush of Ahmaud Arbery whether, you know, he is ready to face the consequences of his actions or not.

LEMON: Listen. He has said that he -- again, his attorney is saying that he had nothing to do with it, that he was simply helping out, that he's a witness and he is -- that's what he is saying.

Again, I think it's a misnomer in society about polygraphs. Polygraphs are considered, especially among legal and legal field, as junk science. Many people believe that they are product of last resort, especially in legal cases. Again, they are not admissible in court. Something you see on television that people rely on a lot but they are not reliable, as you said.

So Lee, listen. Gough also spoke directly to you and other attorneys for Arbery's family. Watch this.

[23:45:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOUGH: I want to take a moment and speak directly to Benjamin Crump and S. Lee Merritt, two of the lawyers for the Arbery family. I'm not here tonight to argue with you about the evidence.

I have discreetly reached out previously through community leaders. I pleaded with you a week ago on national television. I do not know whether you have heard my pleas or whether you chose to ignore them. So I will try again. Mr. Bryan is not your enemy. My plea is this. Please stop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What's your response?

MERRITT: No, we're going to continue to push for the arrest of William Bryan for recording and participating in the ambush of Ahmaud Arbery because his family deserves justice from not only the two men who have been arrested but for anybody who participated in that act.

He says he's not here to argue about the evidence. We're not here to argue about the evidence. We're here to examine the evidence because the evidence is important in criminal proceedings.

The evidence says that he went from his home, according to his attorney, and minutes later, he was in his truck following Ahmaud Arbery who is a jogger in his neighborhood. He recorded Ahmaud. The evidence indicates that he blocked him out with his truck and allowed two other men to ambush him and kill him.

He recorded that incident. If he wanted to create evidence at that time, he could have honked his horn and create evidence that he wanted this not to happen. He could have stop the recording and tried to intervene and save Ahmaud's life.

Instead, he actively participated in it. And quite frankly to his attorney, we as attorneys know how to contact each other. We send e- mails. We call the office. We haven't gotten anything from his -- this is all showmanship for cable TV but that's not how courtrooms work. The evidence will bear out that his client is responsible for his crimes.

LEMON: And we should say we invited Mr. Bryan and his -- through his attorney to make a statement or come on because we -- I can't defend him. I'm sure his attorney is very sincere in his defense of his client. He is saying that he is simply a witness. If he wants to defend his client, he is welcome to come on the show. We will have them both any time.

Thank you, Lee. I appreciate your time. Thanks so much. We'll be right back.

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LEMON: After two prosecutors recused themselves from the Ahmaud Arbery case and a third stepped down, the case has a new prosecutor. CNN's Martin Savidge has more.

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MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Death has made Ahmaud Arbery larger than life. (INAUDIBLE) from the Glynn County Courthouse, Marvin Weeks paints Arbery's image on the side of a building.

MARVIN WEEKS, ARTIST: We need something to connect us and this mural or any effort of coming together is important. SAVIDGE (voice-over): Arbery's case has become a cause.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We must love one another and support one another!

SAVIDGE (voice-over): Father and son, Gregory and Travis McMichael, are accused of Arbery's murder. Gregory McMichael has ties to local law enforcement. The men were arrested only after cell phone video showing the killing was leaked months after the incident.

Attorneys for the elder McMichael deny their client committed murder and say they will prove a very different narrative. Travis McMichael's attorneys have made similar comments, saying that he has been vilified before his voice could even be heard.

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SAVIDGE (voice-over): The case has already consumed three district attorneys, two recusing themselves, the third admitting it had become too big to handle. Now, an Atlanta-area district attorney, Joyette Holmes, becomes D.A. number four. Holmes made history last year.

JOYETTE HOLMES, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Constitution of the state of Georgia --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): So help me God.

HOLMES: -- so help me God.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): When the Republican was sworn in as Cobb County's first African-American district attorney. Now, 10 months later, she is in charge of one of the most controversial cases in the country.

"Our office will immediately gather all materials related to the investigation thus far and continue to seek additional information to move this case forward," Holmes said.

She has a lot resting on her shoulders right now, and you think she's capable.

HOLLY TUCHMAN, FRIEND OF JOYETTE HOLMES: I do. I think she is the right person at the right time. It is a lot to carry on your shoulders. But she's a strong woman of faith, a family person, and her career. And I think she's up to the task.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): John Perry believes Holmes can restore something many see lacking in this case. Trust.

JOHN PERRY, PRESIDENT, NAACP BRUNSWICK: There's are a lot of suspicion. Of course, you have good apples, bad apples. But, unfortunately, it seems like our bad apples have been at the top. And so there's a lack of trust.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): Holmes's office is 300 miles away, a distance that could make her seem an outsider.

PAGE PATE, GLYNN COUNTY DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The difference here, though, is she's not from Atlanta. She's from Valdosta. And Valdosta is not next door but it's a lot more like Brunswick than Atlanta is. So, I think she understands small-town Georgia. She understands South Georgia.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): Holmes was an only child, raised in a working- class neighborhood. Her mother is a nurse. Her late father was a retired military. Cedric Mobley went to high school with Holmes. He, too, believes she's the right person at the right time.

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CEDRIC MOBLEY, HOLMES'S HOMETOWN FRIEND: She really understands the impact that the way a situation like the one in Brunswick has on the entire community. And I think that that's why she is the perfect person to be helming this case because she is conscientious of the way that it will affect such a small, tight-knit community.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): It's an understanding Holmes will need to rely on as she searches to find justice in a case that now looms so large.

SAVIDGE (on camera): This case could actually have political implications. You see, district attorney is an elected position in the state of Georgia. Joyette Holmes was appointed to fill a vacancy. She won't actually run to be Cobb County district attorney until this fall, which means depending on how well she is perceived at handling this case could determine if she keeps her job or not. Don?

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LEMON: All right. Martin, thank you so much. And thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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