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Don Lemon Tonight
President Trump Defends His Use Of Hydroxychloroquine; President Refuses To Wear A Mask; Brazil Now Ranks Third For Hardest Hit By COVID-19; Federal Judge Rules Texas Afraid Of Catching Coronavirus Can Vote By Mail; All States Partially Open Tomorrow; Rising Cases In 17 States; Los Angeles County Aims For Safe Reopening By July 4th; Bipartisan Health Policy Experts Release Recommendations On How To Reopen Safely. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired May 19, 2020 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Obama's camp reportedly said to former president isn't interested so long as Trump is in office.
Look, here's what I'm saying. Yes, Trump is sitting president. He's supposed to be the bigger person, he's supposed to be to make it happen. I'm just saying right now this is the last type of thing we need to see. All right? But don't take it from me.
I thank you for watching and I deliver you to one of my many betters, D. Lemon, starting right now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Come on.
CUOMO: What do you think?
LEMON: I wouldn't want to go to that White House if I was Obama. Come on. Let's be real. His -- Obama never treated his predecessor the way this -- this president is treating Obama. Accusing him of crimes and all kinds of names.
Yes, there's decorum and all of that, but this is -- this is unprecedented. This president is -- the way he treats people, the way he goes after people, the names he calls, why would you want to -- why would you want to put yourself in that situation?
CUOMO: To show the country that we are still bigger than our grievances.
LEMON: To show the country that you -- that you just -- you put yourself on the level of that person?
CUOMO: No, you put him above him.
LEMON: No.
CUOMO: By saying the country matters more. And then you say --
(CROSSTALK) LEMON: You take the high road and you say I'm not participating in this farce that is happening in this country right now. I'm sorry, when this is all done, I will take my time and I will wait because that portrait will be there and I can do a ceremony whenever, whether it is a year or two or four years. I will wait for the next administration. Or if it never happens, I am fine.
In the meantime, you guys go, enjoy, do your own thing, do your business and I'll just sit here and I will be fine the way it is. He doesn't --he doesn't owe anyone everything.
CUOMO: Nobody -- I'm not saying about owing. I'm not saying about owing.
LEMON: He spent eight years there.
CUOMO: Yes, I got you.
LEMON: Taking care of his business.
CUOMO: I know he did. That's not the point.
LEMON: What does a portrait ceremony mean, Chris?
CUOMO: Means a lot. Means a lot. First of all, first African-American president.
LEMON: OK.
CUOMO: It means a lot.
LEMON: We got that. I know that, trust me.
CUOMO: And it's a reinforcement of what the administration meant and it's a reinforcement of what the man means.
LEMON: OK. Let me tell you this, Chris. The people, it means a lot to everybody, but for people like me who know, really feel how he is the first African-American president, we don't really want him there. And it would be a slap in the face for him to go there. And he and his wife and his family and the people it really means a whole heck of a lot to, we know that.
We don't want him to go there. Do not go there. Do not put yourself in that situation. Do not lower yourself and debase yourself and go to that White House. Yes, I said it. Don't do it.
CUOMO: And what about for those even within the African-American community who say don't let Trump tell you, you can't come?
LEMON: But why don't you call up those four people and ask them? Because you can call them up on your phone or call up the people who go to the White House and whatever, but you can -- no, no one feels that way, Chris. Trust me. If this president would take the time to realize that the office is bigger than he is --
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: -- that he has people around him -- or people who were there before, like the former president George Bush, like Barack Obama, like Bill Clinton, and on and on, who can help him in these situations, who can -- who he can rely on.
There's a -- this is a very elite club. Where he alienates himself even from this very elite club. Why would anyone want to go there and put themselves in that position to be a part of this mess? I don't want to be a part of that mess. Nobody would want to be a part, it's a mess.
CUOMO: I get not wanting to be a part of the mess. I don't understand why you're not giving any weight.
LEMON: Because it would be fake. Because he would be faking it and he is not a fake.
CUOMO: Well, it depends on how you use the opportunity and what you said, but why are you completely discounting the idea of Trump saying, Don Lemon or Barack Obama, forget about Don Lemon, you don't get to come. You don't get to come. You don't get to do it, even though you're a president. I'm marginalizing you. You stay away.
LEMON: He's not marginalizing him. Because the former president is big enough to know that that is not Trump's house, it is the people's house.
CUOMO: That's why he should go.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And so, when --
CUOMO: And say this is bigger than you, pal. Get out of my way.
LEMON: But he doesn't have to go -- he doesn't have to go there now. He doesn't need to go there now. He does not want -- trust me, trust me, he does not want to go there now.
CUOMO: I don't disagree with that.
LEMON: He does not. If he wanted to go there now, he would do it.
CUOMO: He's done a lot of things he didn't want to do because he thought they were right.
LEMON: He thinks the right thing to do is not go there.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: How do you know what he thinks so much?
LEMON: Come on, man. Come on, man.
CUOMO: You got some secret communication with Barack Obama? LEMON: All right, Chris, would you want to go there?
CUOMO: Huh?
LEMON: Would you want to go there?
CUOMO: I would not let him tell me I can't go --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Would you want to go where you're not wanted?
CUOMO: -- if I were president of the United States before he, he's not telling me when I can go to the White House or not.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: It doesn't matter if someone tells you, you can't go. If you don't want to go, it doesn't matter. It's like the same thing --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: I want to go for all the people who put me there, who believe in something better than what he's doing right now.
LEMON: It's the same thing that happened with Golden State when he told Curry that they couldn't come. Curry says, guess what, I don't to go.
CUOMO: Not president of the United States. Great team. Great player. Not first African-American --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Guess what?
[22:04:59]
CUOMO: -- being told by this guy who has reawakened a lot of ugliness in this country that he can't come.
LEMON: He's been there, he was there for eight years, and so I think that's enough. He's good. Trust me, he's good. He knows where everything, all the ins and outs.
CUOMO: I know what you're saying. He definitely doesn't disparage him. I think I'm getting wrapped. That must mean I'm winning.
LEMON: I'm getting wrapped, too. I'm just going on. I'm just telling you you're not going to win this argument because he's not going to go.
CUOMO: Well, I'm not going to win with you. I've never wanted an argument with you. I don't even get to decide where we go to lunch.
(CROSSTALK) LEMON: I don't even try --
CUOMO: I understand what you're saying and I get the passion and I get the sense of purpose.
LEMON: Yes. OK. I understand that.
CUOMO: I respect it. I don't like how it's happening.
LEMON: I think it sends a better and bigger member he doesn't want to go and be a part of this. If it was a welcoming, open administration to a former president to someone who is -- who has -- who really worked really hard to bring people together and was told he was going to be a one-term president, why would he want to go there? Someone who said that he wasn't born in this country.
CUOMO: Wasn't born. The birther thing. Absolutely insulting. Insulting.
LEMON: Don't want to do it. I don't have to be bothered with you. I showed you. I told you there was a pandemic plan. I told you what the biggest threat was. Told you all that stuff. I welcomed you. I gave you the keys. I told you how to deal with it. Adios. Good luck. I'll see you later. And I will see you later.
CUOMO: I love you.
LEMON: I love you, too.
CUOMO: I guess that's why people like us, we take it for granted, but it's really hard to see people get along.
LEMON: And that is the truth.
CUOMO: I love you, brother. Have a great show.
LEMON: That is the TIE truth, as we used to say when I was a kid. All right. Thank you. See you later.
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. Here is our breaking news.
With the coronavirus death toll in this country well over 91,000 with more than 1.5 million cases, the president, as he always seems to do, lashes out with distractions and disinformation, his haphazard and reckless approach to this crisis shows that he is not taking it seriously even after more than 91,000 Americans have died, he is making it about himself.
And there is no better example than the president's insistence on taking a drug -- a drug that his own medical experts have warned against, saying it could cause serious heart problems.
He is dismissing a study of patients at V.A. hospitals that found those who take hydroxychloroquine, the drug the president is taking, had higher death rates.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I've worked with doctors and if you look at the one survey, the only bad survey, they were giving it to people that were in very bad shape. They were very old. Almost dead. It was a Trump enemy statement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: A Trump enemy statement? In what world do you blame a study that doesn't support what you want to believe on your perceived political enemies? I guess it's this world that we're living in right now, making my point that I was just making to Chris, and, frankly, the lack of compassion for those sick people, those veterans is pretty stunning.
A study that doesn't find what he thinks that it should find. It must be false. It must be his enemies behind it. The president can't seem to wrap his head around the facts, the facts about a drug that he is insisting on taking, even though it could have dangerous side effects.
And that study of patients in V.A. hospitals is not the only warning about hydroxychloroquine. A new study just last week, the largest of its kind, it shows the drug doesn't work against the coronavirus and could cause heart problems. The FDA and National Institutes of Health warned against it, too. But the president goes on to call the study by scientists, phony. And says this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: But the fact is people should want to help people, not to make political points. It's really sad when they do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Yes, it is sad when people use a crisis like this to make political points. Instead of showing the kind of leadership Americans need from their president.
He insists on taking a drug with possible dangerous side effects, but he refuses to do one simple thing that millions of Americans have been doing for weeks, wear a mask.
The president didn't wear one when he went to Capitol Hill today, went to the Capitol for lunch with Republican senators, many of whom are in an age group that puts them at risk. In fact, he's in an age group where he's at risk. Underlying conditions as well. Obesity and on and on.
And he's dodging the question of wearing one on his visit to a Ford plant in Michigan on Thursday. One that has been making ventilators and PPE. The plant requires everyone to wear a mask. But they say they'll defer to the White House on whether the president wears one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President -- TRUMP: Yes?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you -- so Ford Motor company has previously required visitors to wear masks when they visit their facilities. Do you plan to wear one when you go there on Thursday?
TRUMP: I don't know. I haven't even thought of it. It depends, you know, in certain areas I would. In certain areas I don't, but I will certainly look at it. It depends on what situation. Am I standing right next to everybody or am I spread out?
[22:10:05]
And also, look, you know, is something a hospital? Is it a ward? Is it -- what is it exactly? I'm going to a plant. So, we'll see. Where it's appropriate, I would do it, certainly. Yes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President --
TRUMP: Yes?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: We've never seen the president wear a mask, not once. He sure has a lot of excuses, though.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Somehow sitting in the Oval Office behind that beautiful Resolute desk, the great Resolute desk, I think wearing a face mask as I greet presidents, prime ministers, dictators, kings, queens, I don't know, somehow, I don't see it for myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Do as I say not as I do. If the president were taking this crisis seriously, if he were taking his own leadership role seriously, he'd just wear a mask. He'd also take the devastation to our economy seriously as well. He'd have a plan to help 36 million unemployed Americans, people who are wondering right now how they're going to pay the rent, put food on the table. Instead, he lashes out at reporters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAULA REID, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CBS NEWS: Why haven't you announced a plan to get 36 million unemployed Americans back to work? You're overseeing historic economic despair. What's the delay? Where's the plan.
TRUMP: I think we've announced a plan. We're opening up our country. Just a rude person you are. We're opening up our country. We're opening it up very fast. The plan is that each state is opening and it's opening up very effectively. And when you see the numbers, I think even you will be impressed, which is pretty hard to impress you. Yes, go ahead.
REID: A lot of these jobs --
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Go ahead. That's enough for you.
REID: -- are not coming back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I couldn't be in that room. They would have kicked me out a long time ago.
The president throwing out random blue-sky predictions of an America back in business and slamming CBS' Paula Reid for daring to ask a question, a question that he did not actually answer. And this president's lack of seriousness goes on and on well, over 1.5 million cases of coronavirus in this country, and the president calls that a badge of honor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: When we have a lot of cases, I don't look at that as a bad thing, I look at that in a certain respect as being a good thing because it means our testing is much better.
So, if we were testing a million people instead of 14 million people, we would have far few cases, right? So, I view it as a badge of honor. Really, it's a badge of honor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: How's that for logic? We'd also have fewer cases if we, I don't know, took this virus seriously from the beginning. Instead of downplaying it, saying that it would go away in warm weather, suggesting ingesting disinfectant might be a treatment, you know, in a minute, one minute, you know, injecting it. And then promoting a drug with serious side effects.
In a town hall tonight, the former Vice President Joe Biden saying this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's like saying maybe if you injected Clorox in your blood, you know, it may cure you. Come on, man. What is he doing? What in God's name is he doing? And the things the presidents say, the words of a president matter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And how -- how random is this? I want you to listen to the president's answer about a question of whether he'd consider a ban on travel from Latin America.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to ask you a question on Brazil, who is --
TRUMP: Brazil?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. In third position -- place now -- catching up to Russia in second place for the number of cases. Are you finally considering a travel ban from Brazil and Latin America?
TRUMP: We are considering it. We hope that we're not going to have a problem. The governor of Florida is doing very, very well testing, in particular Florida, because a big majority come into Florida. Brazil has gone more or less herd. You know what that is, herd. And they're having problems.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Herd. You know what that is, talking about herd immunity. OK. So, he's just not taking this seriously. Here's why. Brazil has more than 250,000 cases of coronavirus. It is the third hardest hit country after the United States and Russia.
And the president's campaign of distraction and disinformation goes on. Anything to distract you from his own abysmal failure to deal seriously with a pandemic that is killing more Americans every single day.
[22:15:01]
In just the past few days this president has fired the State Department inspector general, the latest in a long line of I.G. firings, he has demeaned the vaccine chief who says he lost his job over, wait for it, criticizing the use of hydroxychloroquine.
He has tried to cook up a baseless conspiracy theory hoping to convince you that the former President Barack Obama had some nefarious involvement in the origins of the Russia investigation.
And you wonder why he doesn't want to go to the White House for a dedication ceremony for a portrait? Really? And he was at it again today. According to multiple sources, railing about Russia to senators behind closed door and launching a tirade about the CDC.
But speaking of Obama, new example tonight of this president's obsession with his predecessor. Can't go a single day without some sort of swipe at the former president.
Tonight, again, we're talking about that traditional portrait unveiling that we're learning about. President Obama, it is on ice, that unveiling. Sources telling CNN it may not happen at all while President Trump is in office, which I guess is not exactly a surprise, is it?
An administration official says there have been some discussion between the White House and the Obama team but no date to hang a portrait was ever officially scheduled. Like I said before. Maybe he doesn't need a portrait. Because Barack Obama lives rent-free in Trump's head. That's all he sees and hears is Barack Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama.
The president dismissing expert research and insisting on taking a drug that could have dangerous side effects. What message does that send to Americans fearful about the virus and looking for some way to protect themselves?
That's a question for CNN's Kaitlan Collins and Dr. Harvey Fineberg.
[22:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: President Trump defending his decision to take hydroxychloroquine despite warnings from the FDA against using it to try to prevent coronavirus. Experts say it can cause severe side effects. He is also slamming a study of hydroxychloroquine that found patients taking it had higher death rates calling it phony and full of false misinformation.
Let's discuss. White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins is here, and Dr. Harvey Fineberg, the chair of the Standing Committee on Emerging Infectious Diseases. So good to see both of you. Thank you so much.
Kaitlan, you first standing in front of that White House this evening. So proud of you. Kaitlan, you've been doing a really great job working, I mean, around the clock. Really holding your own.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: I'm so proud of you standing up to the president and t the administration in a very respectful way and speaking truth to power, which is what you should do without fear or favor, so I must say that to you, OK? I'm proud to be your colleague.
COLLINS: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: So, Kaitlan, listen, despite the health warnings, the president is defending his unproven preventive use of hydroxychloroquine, and going as far as calling one study he doesn't like a Trump enemy statement. Why is the president pushing this drug so much?
COLLINS: Well, Don, it was interesting to hear which study he went after today because you saw the V.A. secretary distancing himself from it, saying it wasn't a V.A. study, but it was done on V.A. patients. They reviewed their charts and saw how they reacted to hydroxychloroquine.
And the other thing is, it's funded in part by the administration. The NIH, the National Institutes of Health, funded this in part with the University of Virginia, that study, and the results came out in April. The president was saying today that he didn't trust the way it was conducted. He thought the results were phony.
But what they noticeably did not talk about as the president and his cabinet secretaries were backing up his decision to take hydroxychloroquine is the statement from the FDA that was issued in April that says it does not believe right now that coronavirus -- or that hydroxychloroquine is a safe or effective way to treat or prevent coronavirus, and they cautioned people they shouldn't be using it outside of a clinical trial or a hospital setting, and the question, you know, that the president has also faced is not just for his own health.
That, of course, is between the president and his physician, but also the example it sets. Whether or not it's encouraging other people to try hydroxychloroquine if they have coronavirus.
LEMON: You know, Dr. Fineberg, one thing that we didn't see at today's cabinet meeting, people wearing masks, OK? You know, from a medical standpoint, the CDC says wearing a mask can slow the spread.
So, in a place where they have two positive cases that we know of, right? They've had others among the Secret Service and other staff members. With two positive cases at this point that just happened I believe in the last week or so. Wouldn't that be a good idea?
HARVEY FINEBERG, CHAIR, STANDING COMMITTEE ON EMERGING INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Yes, it would, Don. You know, when the White House or West Wing staff had approximately two cases out of about 400 staff who were tested positive, if the study that said this test is frequently negative when patients actually have the infection, there's very likely one or more unrecognized cases somewhere in the West Wing among the staff who are there, and that's consistent with the rate of infection in the city of Washington, D.C. which is about 1 per 100 persons.
So, yes, it would be a good idea for everyone to wear a mask. It's not just that it protects you. That's not the main point. You're wearing a mask arrests droplet that you would emit that could infect someone else.
Most importantly, though, it sets a good example. I was very impressed when the first lady had a face mask, wearing that mask after the CDC guidelines came out. That set a very good example for the nation. And the White House, if everyone wore a mask, I believe it would also set a good example.
LEMON: Kaitlan, I mentioned this earlier in the open to the show, but this exchange between CBS reporter Paula Reid and the president at today's cabinet meeting. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[22:24:59]
REID: Mr. President, why haven't you announced a plan to get 36 million unemployed Americans back to work? You're overseeing historic economic despair. What's the delay? Where's the plan?
TRUMP: I think we've announced a plan. We're opening up our country. Just a rude person you are. We're opening up our country. We're opening it up very fast. The plan is that each state is opening and it's opening up very effectively. And when you see the numbers, I think even you will be impressed, which is pretty hard to impress you. Yes, go ahead, please.
REID: A lot of these jobs --
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Go ahead. That's enough from you.
REID: -- are not coming back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The president's reaction to a perfectly legitimate question from a woman. There is a reporter doing her job. He called her rude. You know, he has I think treated many reporters there in the same way. He did something similar to you. Not sure how many times.
Is he so -- why is he so adverse to directly answering a question like that? Is it because it doesn't fit his narrative that his response is perfect?
COLLINS: Based on what I've heard from multiple people I've spoken with that have spoken with the president in recent weeks, he is highly concerned about the unemployment number. And so is his political team as they are looking ahead to an election that's really not that far away, and they see that 36 million people have filed for unemployment.
You're seeing the state of concern, even as states, yes, they are starting to reopen. You know, there are concerns about which jobs are not going to come back which people are going to get back to those jobs back to their regular basis. If you're in the service industry, things like that.
And I think, Don, the president is increasingly concerned about that and that's why you see him react like that to a question like that because there are such concerns about what that's going to look like.
And you even heard that from the Federal Reserve chairman as he was testifying today. Talking about what the unemployment numbers are going to look like and how he said even in an interview the other day he doesn't really think that the economy is going to fully recover until there is a vaccine. Because there are some industries that will just not be able to come back until people feel completely safe returning to their normal lives.
LEMON: Thank you, Kaitlan. Thank you, doctor. I appreciate both of you.
In just hours all 50 states will be at least partially reopened, but my next guest warns we're only in the second inning of a nine-inning game.
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON,: Federal judge in Texas ruling tonight that all voters afraid of catching the coronavirus can request absentee mail-in ballots due to the pandemic. That as by tomorrow all states will be open to some extent. Even though daily case rates are still rising in some parts of the country.
Joining me now is Dr. Michael Osterholm, the Director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy and the author of Deadliest enemy, our war against killer germs. Thank you, sir. Good to see you.
Look, new cases per day in the U.S. as a whole have been trending downward. But the picture is more complicated on a state by state level, doctor, 17 trending in the wrong direction. How do you see the virus playing out over the next month or so?
DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICY: At this point we don't know. I think that there is surely reason to believe that in a number of states we actually are on a major downward side, but I think some states, particularly in some areas within states, have been somewhat delayed in getting the virus there. And I think we could see those continue to increase for some time.
But I think the fear that I have is that we'll continue to trend downward, and some might say how can you say that? But, in fact, if that's the case, this could look more like an influenza-type pandemic where we would have this first wave that would occur and then for several months have very little activity and then, of course, have a big wave, which could be a very, very real challenge for us if that were to happen.
LEMON: Yes, and you are warning people again saying, look, we won and being fooled by the drop in cases. You say it could be Mother Nature playing the cruelest trick of all. What do you mean by that?
OSTERHOLM: Well, if you look at the previous pandemics caused by influenza, which we acknowledge this is the first one we know of have caused by a coronavirus, but it's acting very much like an influenza virus. And if you look at those last 10 pandemics, sort of the previous 250 years, two started in the winter, two started in our spring, three in our summer, three in our fall, and in each one of those there was an initial wave that occurred that was sporadic.
Some cities got hit. Some didn't. It lasted for several months. And then without any human intervention it just literally went away. They were quiet for several months. And then they came back and it was the second wave that was the big one that really caused the vast majority of deaths and severe illnesses.
And, again, you have to remember today in this country at best 5 percent to 15 percent of the country has been infected with this virus, or maybe some spots in the New York City area, as high as 20 percent. For this virus to slow its transmission down it has to hit what we call herd immunity levels. Where there is enough previously infected people with protection that will slowdown transmission. That's 60 percent to 70 percent.
So, Don, when you think about the fact how much pain, suffering and death we've had and economic disruption for 5 percent to 15 percent cases, imagine what it will take to get to 60 percent or 70 percent. And today I fear that this country does not get that at all.
LEMON: Los Angeles County officials say that they are aiming to reopen restaurants and retail stores, malls, and they want to do it by July 4th, but other parts of the country are on a different timeline. Does it cause confusion to have such a -- just a patchwork of guidelines?
OSTERHOLM: Well, first of all, we have to again take a step back. What were we doing to begin with in March? We did these lockdowns. We did these restriction of movements because we were trying to shave the curve down. We were worried that we were going to see this big explosion of cases. Again, we still have a real challenge with this virus and we have to understand what we need to do about it.
[22:35:03]
But as I've said all along, is we can't go into total lockdown. We can't do a Wuhan-like lockdown for 18 months hoping for a vaccine and we can't let it go willy-nilly, where we just let cases happen as they do. We have to figure out how to do this in between kind of thing. And so I think, we're going to be in situations that are going to be confusing, but it's going to say, what can we do to limit as much transmission?
The second thing we have to start doing is again saying government can't protect you, it won't protect you. What you're going to have to start looking at is, I'm a high-risk person, meaning I'm older, I have underlying health conditions, I'm obese, then you know what?
If you go out into public spaces with lots of people, you have a chance of getting infected. Somehow we have to merge both of those of what can we do as a society but what can individuals do to protect themselves? We're not having that discussion right now. We need to badly.
LEMON: Doctor, thank you so much. We'll see you soon.
OSTERHOLM: Thank you. Thanks, Don.
LEMON: Yes. The FDA says there are currently 144 coronavirus there for trials and more than 450 development programs, but my next guest says there needs to be -- there needs to -- this needs to -- these need to speed up. Excuse me. He is the former FDA commissioner and he's got an idea of how to do it. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:40:00]
LEMON: Health experts scrambling to find an effective coronavirus treatment that can be made easily available. Most estimates suggesting a vaccine won't be ready until next year at the earliest. As concerns grow about a possible second wave this fall. So what's available now and what's coming down the pipeline? Lots of questions for the former FDA commissioner Dr. Mark McClellan. Doctor, thank you. Good to see you again.
DR. MARK MCCLELLAN, FORMER FDA COMMISSIONER: Good to see you.
LEMON: Let's discuss here. So, listen, you're trying to get treatments for coronavirus to be more widely available but what are the treatments and how can we get that done?
MCCLELLAN: Well, Don, so far there are not many that have good evidence to support them. I know you were talking about hydroxychloroquine earlier. There's not strong evidence there. Remdesivir, a new anti-viral drug by Gilead had shown very promising results in studies where people were randomized to get the drug or get an alternative standard of care treatment and it showed they did better. We need more studies like that done quickly, including on Remdesivir to learn more about who exactly it benefits and how they can best take it.
LEMON: And there's this possible vaccine by Moderna that was announced yesterday caused even the stock market to go up. People were optimistic about it. So, definitely need more of that. Without a vaccine, finding effective treatment -- treatments, you know, that's going to be everything, right?
MCCLELLAN: It is everything, and I think there are a lot of treatments that hold promise that we can find out about and make available if they really do work well before a vaccine like the Moderna vaccine if it does turn out to work would be available. Many of these studies are done in people with serious covid-19 complications in the hospital.
And the FDA has recently issued some guidance on how to do those trials quickly within a matter of a few weeks or so. We need to do more, though, to get -- to make those clinical trials more widely available, to get more hospitals to participate and to get more covid- 19 patients enrolled. I think a lot of people would appreciate the opportunity to find out more faster about what treatments really work.
LEMON: Yes. Let's talk more about the -- what's going on here because the FDA says there are 144 active trials of coronavirus therapeutics and more than 450 development programs. How do we speed up the process without cutting corners, doctor?
MCCLELLAN: We definitely don't want to cut corners, so you need to know that a treatment is safe and effective, and the best way to do that is in a randomized study where some people by a coin flip get one treatment or a set of alternative treatments and other people don't. And then you compare the results. The FDA has set up a way to do those trials quickly.
What we need to have happen is more hospitals using their electronic data systems to do these studies in the same way. So that more people can get enrolled and we can keep the time of completing those trials to be as short as possible.
Some of the so-called platform trials are being set up and the national institutes of health is starting to run them now. We'd like to see those be much more widely available. LEMON: So, Dr. McClellan, President Trump calling a clinical study of
hydroxychloroquine in V.A. patients phony. He is taking the drug against the FDA's recommendations. He's sidelining the CDC. What impact do these attacks have on fighting this pandemic?
MCCLELLAN: Well, I hope they won't slow down the need to get more evidence on the treatments that really work. There are some randomized studies under way now about hydroxychloroquine that will hopefully give us more definitive evidence.
For now, though, Don there is not clear evidence that this treatment works and the FDA has put out some very clear warnings for people with heart disease, for people with other medical conditions to avoid it because it can cause serious heart complications and other complications.
LEMON: You mentioned earlier in the interview, you mentioned Remdesivir. There's been a lot of talk about that as well as a synthetic antibody treatment. What looks like the most promising therapeutic to you?
MCCLELLAN: I think Remdesivir has a lot of promise, as Tony Fauci and others have said. It's not a home run, but it does seem to help reduce the duration of infections and maybe the severity. So, hopefully we'll be able to build on that study. That's the way medical progress happens. It happened with aids, it happened with hepatitis C, find one drug that works kind of OK and then you build on that to find others that work better.
One other thing, though, Don, that I want to emphasize is this is a big pandemic affecting millions of people. So it's not just a matter of doing the clinical studies quickly but making sure we can manufacture these treatments so that they'll be widely available as soon as we know whether they work or not.
[22:45:13]
And I think there's more work to do there. Remdesivir is starting to become more widely available, but we really need to ramp up manufacturing there, too.
LEMON: You're part of a group of a bipartisan health policy experts putting out recommendations for opening safely. What can you tell us about that? Especially as some states are reopening, despite not meeting the White House's own guidelines.
MCCLELLAN: Yes, there are some states going ahead. You've talked about it. The feeling of economic pressure driving some of that. For these states I think there are some steps that they can take to make sure that they're detecting problems earlier. You just talked about that with Dr. Osterholm.
There are ways that we can track trends in hospitalizations and this group is coming together to make some recommendations on how to do that better. How we can open safely. And we'll have more to say about that, Don, I think tomorrow. LEMON: Thank you, doctor. I appreciate your time.
MCCLELLAN: Great to be here.
LEMON: The weather is getting warmer and people are looking forward to their summer plans, but is it safe to swim at the neighborhood pool? What about the beach? I'm going to ask a doctor next.
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LEMON: As of tomorrow all 50 states will be in the process of partially reopening lifting measures to curb the spread of the virus. Just in time for the beginning of summer. But at least, 17 states are seeing a rise in new cases. So what's safe this summer and what isn't?
I want to bring in now Dr. Leonard Mermel, the professor of medicine at Warren Alpert Medical School at Brown University. Dr. Mermel, thank you. It's pleasure to have you on.
DR. LEONARD MERMEL, PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE, WARREN ALPERT MEDICAL SCHOOL AT BROWN UNIVERSITY: Thanks for having me.
LEMON: You're a fellow with the infectious disease society of America. And they say a play book doesn't exist when it comes to how the United States should handle summer activity. So, let's do a risk assessment shall we on some of the big ones. I want to start with swimming at neighborhood and public pools. Is that safe?
MERMEL: Well, it's safe if done properly. And I think it's important for people to get out and exercise. I think there's a number of strategies that can be put in place. Number one, making it very clear that nobody comes to the pool if they have any illness that might be suggestive of covid-19. There might be even a screening form (inaudible). Would somebody comes to the pool, I would suggest not using a locker room.
Limiting the number of people coming in at one time. Doing a screening. And they are going directly to the pool. Maintaining social distancing and until someone gets into the pool doing what some of the guests have talked about source control, which is wearing a mask over someone's face. Getting into the pool, maintaining the distance. Because someone might be swimming laps for example. And cough somewhere. At the end of swimming a lap for example. And you want to maintain some distance.
The greatest risk when we're not doing source control. If people are swimming without a mask on and their coughing and somebody is right next to them that could potentially transmit the virus even if somebody is pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic. So, limiting the number of people in the pool in one time. Spacing them out.
And cleaning high touch surfaces that people may use say to go into a restroom or and limiting space that someone may use when they are out of the pool. Let's say to dry off maintaining social distancing there as well. I'm not fearful of the virus surviving in the pool water. I haven't read articles specific to SARS, covid-2, the cause of the covid-19.
LEMON: Well, that's what I want to ask you specifically. About the chlorine and the chemicals in the pool. Because there are chlorine pools right? And then there's salt pools -- I think salt makes it a chlorine or something, but --
MERMEL: Right. Exactly. Salt makes a chlorine. It is also simple as you used U.V. light that the water goes through. You know, dilution is usually part of the solution for these sorts of infections. Be a dilution in the air or being outside or dilution in a large body of water. Like a swimming pool or the ocean. So, I'm not that concerned about someone getting a little water in their mouth.
LEMON: OK. What about people standing around the pool using -- like, you're standing right in the pool and then you said -- because people touch the edges of the pool and they also are standing around and talk to each other in the pool. That sort of thing.
MERMEL: Well, yes. They are going to have to -- good point, Don. I think they have to talk to each other at a distance of at least six feet. Particularly again, because their mouths not covered. If everybody swam with let's say divers mask over their face, over their mouth, I should say. And their nose. That would limit transmission risk significantly. But you know, people aren't generally going to do that when they are swimming laps.
LEMON: OK. Now what about beach and oceans, lake fronts. What's the risk there? Because I remember early on, there was a study in the L.A. Times about beaches and run off and all of that. So, what about that?
MERMEL: Yes, I think still the concern, I surf. So, you know, I think about obviously sewage run off that concerns me. But I think the greater risk is again people congregating together. They're not maintaining social distancing. They are partying at the beach. Letting their guard down and leading to transmission. I don't think there's going to be transmission from the ocean water.
I mean, generally most beaches are away from sewage run off. I think that risk is hypothetical in general and it will. I think it still comes back to people being together on the beach. Not maintain social distancing. Let's say going to a refreshment stand or standing in line close together without a mask on. That would lead to risk.
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LEMON: OK. I got you. All right. In Colorado, the Boulder County public health shared this video. And I want you to look at how packed together everyone is. Wow. Look at that. Local health officials say social distancing rules still apply. But when you see pictures like that, are those rules even enforceable?
MERMEL: Well, it's concerning. I also, actually University of Colorado Boulder graduate from many, many years ago. That's the problem. As we open things up, and people don't follow the rules, you have congregation in a small space of a large number of people.
There's going to be transmission events and we can only hope that we have the public health infrastructure to do the contact tracing, quarantine and tracking down transmission that's likely to occur. When people are breaking the rules and gathering in a confined space in close proximity.
LEMON: All right. Doctor, thank you, very informative. I appreciate your time. Be safe.
MERMEL: My great pleasure, Don. You, too.
LEMON: All right. Careful out there swimming. Over 91,000 deaths from coronavirus in the U.S. as of -- as all 50 states are just hours away from at least partially reopening. Stay with us for the very latest.
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