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Don Lemon Tonight

Texas Federal Judge Ruled That Voters Afraid Of Catching COVID- 19 Can Vote By Mail; CDC Released Guidelines For States To Follow; Scientists Say New Model Suggests That Particles From Cough Could Travel Farther Than Six Feet; California, New York, and Texas Governors Say Professional Sports In Their States Must Plan On Reopening Without Fans. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired May 19, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

It is 11 p.m. on the East Coast and we have got the latest on the coronavirus pandemic. There are more than 1.5 million cases of the virus in the United States, the death toll in the U.S. now surpassing 91,000.

President Trump doubling down today on his decision to take hydroxychloroquine despite warnings from the FDA against using the drug for coronavirus.

Experts warn it can cause severe side effects inclosing -- including heart problems. The president dismissing those concerns and slamming a study of Veterans Affairs patients who took the drug calling it phony and claiming it was filed with a lot of -- or excuse me -- filled with a lot of false information.

President Trump also reportedly going on a tirade against the CDC. A source telling CNN he was highly critical of the agency during his lunch with Republican senators claiming it botched early testing of coronavirus.

These developments as Vice President Pence announces that as of tomorrow all 50 states are partially reopening their economy.

CNN White House Correspondents John Harwood and our resident fact checker is Daniel Dale. They both join me now.

Good evening. John, we are just learning that a Texas federal judge ruled that voters afraid of catching COVID-19 can vote by mail. This is exactly what the president feared.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It is. And it's what the Republican Party feared as well. You know, one of the consistent things we have seen in American politics over the last couple of decades as Republicans have been on the short side of public opinion getting shorter and shorter as the country changes demographically. They lost six of the last seven popular votes in presidential

elections. They want fewer people to vote. They are not eager for the rising numbers of Latino and African-American voters and other non- white voters to vote.

That's why we have all the voter I.D. laws and discouragement of mail in voting and talk about voter fraud. Even though there isn't really evidence of voter fraud on any significant scale in the United States.

And so here you had a case where the Texas attorney general had been pressing the idea that it was not a valid reason to request an absentee ballot. That you were afraid of COVID-19. It seems to fly in the face of common sense and the federal judge has stood up for common sense in that situation. And we'll see if this is the last of the legislation. Does it go on to the Supreme Court.

But this is something that will likely expand the ballot and try to avoid some of the situations we saw in Wisconsin. Some weeks ago, when people were standing in line, we believe there may have been cases of COVID-19 that arose out of the in-person voting.

LEMON: And it's interesting those people stood in line and the weather wasn't great and there was COVID too. And they stood in that line and they voted.

So, Daniel, I want to bring you in now. The president is trying to discredit the studies and FDA warnings on hydroxychloroquine. Pay attention to this, please.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FDA said hydroxychloroquine should npt be used outside of a hospital setting --

(CROSSTALK)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: No, that's not what I was told. No. There was a false study done where they gave it to very sick people. Extremely sick people. People that were ready to die. It was given by obviously not friends of the administration. That study was a phony study. Put out by the V.A.

If you look at the one survey, the only bad survey, they were giving it to people that were in very bad shape. They were very old. Almost dead. It was a Trump enemy statement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Give me the facts, Daniel.

DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: There's a lot here. So, the FDA did issue that safety warning the president denied the FDA issued. On this study at the V.A., no, it was not concocted by the president's political opponents to somehow damage him.

This was a study by researchers at the University of South Carolina and University of Virginia. It looked at 368 patients at V.A. facilities and compared the results for people who took hydroxychloroquine to results for people who didn't. It found out the death rates for people who did take the drug were significantly higher than the death rates for those who did not.

Now there are valid criticisms of the study. It was small, it was not peer reviewed. It looked at an older population, meaning age over 65. It was a majority black population.

But the thing is, Don, that the researchers explicitly acknowledge these limitations of their own work in the study. What they said was that their results merely showed the need for bigger, better randomized controlled clinical trials. So, the idea that this was a nefarious plot is complete nonsense, a complete invention by President Trump.

[23:05:08]

LEMON: You know, John, I want to play this, because, and make sure we have, but it's hard to keep up with who the president is blaming for this pandemic. The CDC, President Obama, the World Health Organization. And of course, China. But here's what he was saying in the beginning of this crisis. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you trust that we're going to know everything we need to know from China?

TRUMP: I do. I do. I have a great relationship with President Xi.

I had a long talk with President Xi for the people in this room. Two nights ago, and he feels very confident. He feels very confident.

Well, I think China is professionally run in the sense that they have everything under control. I really believe they are going to have it under control fairly soon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some people don't seem to trust the data coming out of China. Are you worried about that?

TRUMP: Look, I know this. President Xi loves the people of China. He loves his country. And he's doing a very good job with a very, very tough situation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What changed?

HARWOOD: Well, what changed, Don, is that 91,000 people have died and 36 million people have filed for unemployment benefits. The pandemic burned across the country and created a catastrophe. Shut down the country.

President Trump was seeing a different tune in the beginning before it hit the United States. When he was not persuaded that it was going to hit the United States and he didn't want to say anything that sounded like he was rattled or that would rattle the markets or that would disrupt an economy that was running smoothly that he thought was going to be a big asset for his re-election.

Now that the wave has crashed over us and left so much wreckage, he is looking for ways to blame others for the crisis. And so, he is accusing the WHO of being too credulous of what China was saying and not being tough enough on China. Of course, that's what the president was doing.

That doesn't mean the WHO does not deserve some criticism for being behind the curve, it doesn't mean that China doesn't deserve criticism for bungling the early response and not being transparent about it.

However, President Trump is going to be judged on how he has managed this pandemic and the American public is not altogether thrilled with how he's done so far. And so, he's trying to mitigate that by pointing the finger elsewhere.

LEMON: Yes. He believes that he deserves no blame. That's the issue here. Thank you very much. I appreciate both of you, gentlemen.

I want to bring in now Dr. Jonathan Reiner. He is the director of the Cardiac Catherization Program at George Washington University Hospital and former Vice President Dick Cheney's cardiologist. Dr. Reiner, good to see you again.

You know, I've got to get your reaction to the president of the United States calling a clinical study about hydroxychloroquine phony and an enemy statement. What do you think of that?

JONATHAN REINER, DIRECTOR OF CARDIAC CATHERIZATION PROGRAM, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL: I think it was dangerous. I think it was shameful and ignorant. Now the president has an enormous platform and people listen to his words. When he first promoted this unproven drug in March, there were -- there was an increase of about 46 times the number of usual prescriptions that day. So, people listen to what he says.

So, what did he say today? He basically discredited researchers, hardworking researchers in the V.A. and University of Virginia, University of South Carolina. Under the auspices of National Institute of Health, he called them basically partisan hacks. He said these weren't administration lovers. Why? Because the trial they ran, the study they're trying to published showed results that don't agree with him?

But it sets a terrible precedent. Going forward, if there is data that he doesn't like he is going to call it phony. Is the death count phony? If a virus fails -- if a vaccine fails in clinical trials, is that phony? Is the election phony?

You know, this is incredibly destructive. And when it comes to science we have to rely on the results of clinical trials and the president does a great service to the country when he calls a clinical study phony. He has no basis to do that. LEMON: You said great -- it sounds like you said service. You meant

disservice. Right?

REINER: Disservice.

LEMON: Maybe it was --

REINER: Great disservice.

LEMON: Yes, it may have been in the transmission there.

REINER: Yes.

LEMON: I -- listen, he attacks institutions all the time. Whether it be the Justice Department, whether it be the media, and on and on. Are you concerned -- it sounds like you're concerned about the consequences of the president delegitimizing science.

REINER: Look, he doesn't wear a mask. A mask turns out to be one of the most effective public health maneuvers. Something that has been shown to maybe decrease viral transmission by as much as 50 percent or even more.

[23:10:05]

And the president refuses to wear a mask, and he refuses to endorse it as a public health strategy. It really flies in the face, no pun intended, of what we know. And it has actually cost lives.

LEMON: Why do you think -- why do you he does that?

REINER: we had to --

LEMON: Why do you think that is?

REINER: He's been trying to downplay the magnitude of this crisis from the beginning. And wearing a mask would look bad. Somehow in his imagination he feels that if he ignores this it will magically go away. He's actually verbalized this. It will go away when it gets warmer. It will -- it will, you know, ultraviolet rays will take the virus away. It will disappear and it won't come back.

And when his own CDC had warned about the risk of both flu and a second wave of coronavirus coming back in the fall, he basically perp walked in back onto the stage the next night to retract that statement. The president doesn't want to hear about it. He refuses to face the fact that we are in a tremendous public health crisis.

And we have meaningful things we can do. Simple things. The president visited a factory on Thursday that requires everyone to wear a mask and he's going to refuse to wear a mask. I hope he proves me wrong.

LEMON: Dr. Jonathan Reiner, thank you so much. We appreciate you joining us.

REINER: My pleasure. LEMON: Every single state in the union is going to be in some stage of

reopening tomorrow. And in some places, that means restaurants. But there is something you should know before you go. We're going to tell you, next.

[23:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: As of tomorrow, all 50 states will be at least partially reopened. The CDC is releasing detailed guidance on how to get the country safely back up and running. But is there any way to really stop the spread of the virus when eating at a restaurant? That's what everyone wants to know.

Randi Kaye went to a Florida lab to find out.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Put some in, and should I rub it all together as well?

This yellow tinted goo is a mixture of petroleum jelly and fluorescent solution.

PATRICK HUGHES, E.R. DOCTOR, EMERGENCY MEDICINE SIMULATION PROGRAM, FLORIDA ATLANTIC UNIVERSITY: Done at ultraviolet light this will glow.

KAYE: OK. And that is going to simulate germs on my hand.

HUGHES: Correct. So, this will simulate contact spread, you know, from you to other things that you touch and maybe touch by someone else.

KAYE: Dr. Patrick Hughes is an E.R. doctor who oversees the emergency medicine simulation program at Florida Atlantic University.

Hi, ladies.

He invited us to lunch. Designating me the so-called spreader so we could see how germs on my hand which could be coronavirus droplets could spread in a restaurant setting.

At our table we keep our masks on to protect ourselves and each other.

Here's a menu for you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have a menu.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sure. Thanks.

KAYE: I pour water for everyone at the table.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is great. Thanks for having us for lunch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure.

KAYE: And pass around the food. Wondering if I'm passing around the virus too.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, awesome. Thank you.

KAYE: You can take the bowl.

We also share the salt and pepper. Then it's time to turn on the ultraviolet lights to see what I may have spread. Remember, I was the only one with what could have been the virus on my hand.

You didn't have any germs on you. I was the spreader. So, when you look at my hands and look at how it transferred to some of you just by sharing items at the table or a knife in this case or water glass. I mean, even, it only takes a little bit, right, to make somebody sick.

How about that bowl of chips I passed around?

HUGHES: You can see where she touched the edge of the bowl to pass it around. The simulated germs, you know, stuck right to the surface.

KAYE: And then everybody else touches the bowl.

Same with the salt and pepper shakers and the pitcher of water. There was contact spread on the cups and menus too. Even my lunch friends.

HUGHES: This is the spot where when Randi came in to have lunch with her friends, she touched right on the shoulder just to greet everybody. And you can see the outline of her palm print, her hand print right on the shirt.

It's quite scary the amount of spread that one person can have in a room like that.

KAYE: We also want to see what would happen if you're out for a lunch or dinner with a friend or your family at a restaurant and somebody coughs. So, let's turn out the light. And let's see the cough. There were now more droplets on the bowl of chips. The menus and water pitcher too.

Look what happened to the fork after that simulated cough. Those would be real germs if that was a real cough on my fork, I would have picked up the fork not being able to see those germs with the naked eye.

Even the woman sitting to my right several feet away from the mannequin that coughed had droplets on her face.

HUGHES: You can see it's on her face, her, glasses, her mask.

KAYE: If she wasn't wearing a mask, she would have breathed it in?

HUGHES: Correct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: So, of course, Don, we ask that doctor that we worked with if he would go out and eat at a restaurant given what we saw on our story. And he said he would not go out and eat at a restaurant. He said that people really need to think long and hard about that.

The trouble is, Don, with the restaurant is really hard to protect yourself because you can't wear a mask if you want to try and eat. You can't wear gloves depending on what you're eating and depending on what city you're in.

A lot of these restaurants are very confined spaces so the tables are very close together and you can't social distance.

So, bottom line, Don, is it's really hard to protect yourself when you go out and eat in a restaurant. Don, back to you.

LEMON: Thank you so much, Randi. I appreciate that. I did not need to see that.

I want to bring in now Dr. Leana Wen. She is an emergency room physician and the former Baltimore City Health Commissioner. My gosh, doctor, I'm already freaked out. That was --

(CROSSTALK)

[23:20:03]

LEANA WEN, PUBLIC HEALTH PROFESSOR, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: I mean, I know how you feel.

LEMON: My gosh. OK, so, how do we safely -- is there any way to safely eat with friends right now?

WEN: It's really hard. Look, we know that when we reopened that there's going to be risk. That the only thing that was keeping this very contagious virus in check was each of us keeping that physical distance.

And so, if we're going to let people to work and start reopening, we are going to be introducing risk of some kind. And the key is what are the steps that we can take to reduce that risk as much as possible? I mean, just going outside has risk. But that risk is pretty small compared to the risk of being indoors in a crowded place with a lot of people.

So, I recommend you can go out and get take-out food. If you really have to go out and eat with other people, try to go to an outdoor space. Because the last thing that you want is this crowded indoor space where a lot of people are congregating for a long period of time.

And look for places that are as much -- as much as you can with social distancing. And do your best to wear masks and practice really good hand hygiene. Because you saw how much, how many surfaces we touch and don't even realize it.

LEMON: I have been invited to like the social distancing barbecues and dinner parties. So far, I haven't gone. But lunches. I don't know. I can't. I can't. OK, anyways. As of tomorrow, all 50 states will have partially

reopened. What measures should businesses, especially restaurants be taking to help stop the spread of this virus.

WEN: Sure. So, the CDC has come out with guidelines that are not as rigorous and not as specific as I would have like. But there are pretty good guidelines that illustrate at least what are some of the things that we should be doing.

So, for businesses, as an example, they should still be encouraging and allowing telework as much as possible. They can also be looking at their internal protocols. Are there things like staggered shifts that they can offer for employees?

Can they recommend for their employees to avoid public transportation unless they have to take it? So, reserving the public transportation for those who need it. They should be encouraging mask wearing and doing everything they can to do that physical distancing.

Because as much as we talk surfaces being a potential area for transmission of COVID-19, the most likely way to get COVID-19 is still through person to person transmission. So, stopping those cognitive areas. Not having buffets, not having the same dining area and having people eat at their desk instead of in a group setting.

All these things reduce the risk a bit. And that little bit is going to be really important as people start coming back to work.

LEMON: The CDC is saying a new bulletin that COVID-19 -- in a new bulletin that COVID-19 spreads far more easily from person to person than by contact with contaminated surfaces. Which is interesting. So, what is your reaction to this? I mean, should we still be concerned about surfaces even though the CDC is saying that?

WEN: We should be. And that's because we do know that for previous coronaviruses that one person touching an elevator button or touching a doorknob that that coronavirus can be transmitted to the person picking it up. Not through our hands but because our hands touch our faces so often.

So, we still should watch out for those surfaces. But I think this is the same if you're going to the grocery the chance of you getting coronavirus from touching a door handle or touching the produce is so much less compared to the chance of you contracting it by standing next to someone who then potentially could cough on you.

And even that is a pretty low chance because the length of exposure also matters. The length of time you're standing next to someone in a grocery store is much less than if you're seated next to someone in a restaurant.

And so, again, everything that we do has risk. But try to reduce as much as possible concentrated indoor spaces for prolonged period of time.

So, your barbecue with friends outdoors maybe OK. But don't share utensils. Don't share drinks. Stay far away from those individuals. Those social distancing happy hours may actually be OK. But I would not go to a crowded indoor restaurant or bar at this time.

LEMON: OK. Can I get a quick yes or no. Because everything that comes to the house, I wipe it down. packages, mail, and everything. Should we -- do we still need to do that?

WEN: I do.

LEMON: OK.

WEN: And I think we should keep on following abundance of caution.

LEMON: Keep on keeping on. Thank you, Dr. Wen. I appreciate it.

WEN: Thank you.

LEMON: A new study shows particles could spread as far as 18 feet away when a person coughs or sneezes. You saw it with that doll. You saw it for yourself. What does that mean for social distancing guidelines that tell us to say -- to stay six feet away? We'll dig into it, next.

[23:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A new computer model showing that the particles released when a person coughs or sneezes could travel much further than six feet. The model shows that at wind speeds from 2 to 10 miles per hour droplets could theoretically travel up to 18 feet. So, what could this mean for social distancing measures with all 50 states beginning to process the process of reopening?

Joining me now to discuss this is Dr. Craig Spencer, the Director of Global Health in E.R. Medicine at New York-Presbyterian/Columbia University Medical Center. Doctor, hello and thank you in advance for joining us. I appreciate it.

[23:05:00]

OK. So, we're going to talk about your model. But I'm sure you saw the dummy at the table and all the particles spreading out from the cough. Oh, my God. Can we put that up because that is --

CRAIG SPENCER, DIRECTOR, GLOBAL HEALTH IN E.R. MEDICINE, NEW YORK- PRESBYTERIAN/COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: Please don't.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (voice-over): No. We're going to look at -- so --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- restaurant and somebody coughs. So, let's turn out the lights and let's see the cough.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): There were now more droplets on the bowl of chips, the menus, and the water pitcher, too. LEMON (voice-over): OK. And so then, it's going to show the woman. Look at the mask on her face. How -- I mean, it's unbelievable how far it travelled. If it was a real cough, it would be all over someone's face of the woman sitting next to hit.

But, I mean, this is what we're talking about here. It can go up to 18 feet. This is a theoretical model, not an experiment with real people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: But does it suggest that six feet might not be enough social distance -- to social distance safely?

SPENCER: I think the first thing, if you're sitting at a table eating chips with someone that is coughing like that, you need to get up and move immediately.

(LAUGHTER)

SPENCER: You're right. This is a computational analysis. It says a lot of formula. If you look at it, it quotes, you know, second law (ph). There's a lot in this that is assuming and then us thinking about how these respiratory droplets might act in different wind and temperature conditions.

When wind speed was zero, they found no particles actually travelled more than six feet, less than that. At certain wind temperatures and certain wind speeds, they found that theoretically these particles could travel 18, 19 feet.

LEMON: OK. So --

SPENCER: Now, what do we do with this? Just because one of us can run a four-minute mile, that doesn't mean the majority of us can. Maybe a couple of these particles make it a little bit farther. For me, that doesn't actually change anything. We don't know whether these droplets are able to carry that virus, the coronavirus.

And for me, it doesn't change much. If you're sick, stay inside. If you're coughing like that, you shouldn't be out having lunch with a bunch of friends.

LEMON: Yeah.

SPENCER: Keep safe distance, especially from anyone coughing. And if you're wearing a mask, washing your hands, and staying six feet away, you're going to be OK.

LEMON: Yeah. Sometimes, you get a tickle. You can't -- anyway. Listen, this week -- I have to move on. This week, South Korea Center for Disease Control announcing that they studied hundreds of recovering coronavirus patients and even though 285 of those patients retested positive for coronavirus later, they weren't contagious. Are you encouraged by that at all?

SPENCER: Yeah. I think this is something that most of us have suspected for some time. Look, this is not new. We're talking about the respiratory PCR test. What this does? It doesn't look for virus itself. It looks for viral fragments, pieces of the virus.

You need all of these pieces just like you need all the parts of a car to drive a car. You need wheels, steering wheel, gas, all that stuff. If you're only looking for one piece of that and assuming the rest of it is there, you might be fooled.

LEMON: Yeah.

SPENCER: The point of this is that they looked at these people who were sick and apparently got better, and then continued to test positive. This isn't unique for COVID. This happened for Ebola. At the same time, even after I survived Ebola, there were pieces of Ebola RNA in me for quite some time. That doesn't mean --

LEMON: I forgot about that --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Yeah, I remember that. You survived Ebola. You just reminded me of that. So, doctor, President Trump today again is defending his use of hydroxychloroquine. You say it's not something that you would give to your family members right now. The studies are not all in yet, right, the tests, the clinical tests. Talk about that.

SPENCER: Right. This is something that we have been hearing about so much and I'm actually kind of surprised that we're talking about this again. I have seen so many people die and struggle with this disease. If there was anything that made that struggle or made that mortality less, I would use it. I don't care about the politics. I care about my patients.

Right now, the data does not support the routine use of hydroxychloroquine, full stop. Maybe there are some studies that show some benefits in some people have given on this day of the week. But the overwhelming burden of proof says that no, it does not help and in a lot of people, it may actually hurt.

That is why I say right now on May 19, if you were to ask me whether it was for my loved or for my enemy, would I give hydroxychloroquine for them for their treatment? No, I would not. I know I'm going to get a bunch of angry e-mails and a bunch of people who are upset with me saying that "I'm murdering my patient." What we know right now is that hydroxychloroquine has no proven mortality benefit.

LEMON: Right now, right? And that means --

SPENCER: Maybe that will change.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You're leaving yourself open to --

SPENCER: Studies have not proven this exactly. LEMON: Yeah. Thank you, doctor. I appreciate it. Look out. The only thing you were talking about a car with gas and all that, that doesn't apply if you are Fred Flintstone because Fred Flintstone did not need gas.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Although I did say in an episode the other day where they ran out of gas. And I said why does it matter? It is because he pedals with his feet.

[23:35:00]

LEMON: But anyway --

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Thank you. I'm loopy tonight. Thank you, doctor.

SPENCER: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: A longstanding tradition is likely not going to happen. Why former President Barack Obama's White House portrait unveiling isn't expected to happen while President Trump is living.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

LEMON: Looks like a time honor tradition at the White House won't be happening any time soon. Sources say an official portrait unveiling for the former president, Barack Obama, might not happen while President Trump is in office. Let's discuss with Desiree Barnes, a former Obama administration aide. Hi, Desiree. How are you doing?

DESIREE BARNES, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AIDE: Good. How are you? Thank you for having me.

LEMON: I'm doing very well. Thank you. I really appreciate having you on. Is it any surprise that we may not see this longstanding tradition happen considering the current president is accusing his predecessor of unsubstantiated crimes, a conspiracy theory?

BARNES: It's no news here. I mean, honestly, this is a tradition that is just on pause. So, I think for the American people who are worried about whether or not this will continue in the future, I do think in the future there will be a leader who respects not only the office of the president but the citizens that it seeks to serve. And so I do think that this is on pause for a moment, but I do think it will return.

LEMON: Who do you think is making this decision not to do this right now? Do you think it is former president himself, President Trump, or both?

BARNES: You know, I wouldn't speculate on it. At the moment, I think all of the formers are more concerned with the citizens and the future of our country and the health and safety of the citizens. So, I'm not 100 percent sure who made the decision. But I do think that right now it's not necessarily the best use of anyone's time to be gathering for the portrait with a crisis and an ongoing pandemic on hand.

LEMON: It's not necessarily a priority at this point.

BARNES: Yeah.

LEMON: I want you to look at this. President Obama hosted President George W. Bush. This is in 2012. President Bush hosted Clinton in 2004. Clinton hosted George H.W. Bush back in '95. The elder Bush hosted Reagan in '89. I mean, these are the moments where politics is put aside and the country gets, you know, to see these leaders together and it's important, right?

BARNES: Yes. Yes, it is. And truthfully, you know, it's very rare that you have former presidents able to gather outside of inauguration or a state funeral, right? And so to have them to be able to gather and to pay their respects to one another, it really is symbolic of a peaceful transition of power and acknowledgment of leaders that came before, you know, your current administration.

LEMON: Yeah. The one and only time President Trump and Obama have met since the inauguration was at President Bush's funeral. They shook hands very briefly. Often in times of crisis, you know, like we have now, current president will call on former presidents to help.

BARNES: Yes.

LEMON: But instead, Trump continues to attack Obama. What is it about Obama that Trump can't deal with?

BARNES: I mean, truthfully, even when it comes to the portrait, this is not a leader who has been known to appreciate fine art or hard work. So if you combine the two, I'm not sure. You know, this is something he wants to walk by every day.

But I will say that, you know, I think all the formers remain unbothered because the seriousness and the duty that you're called to when you are asked to serve -- sorry about that. I have a seven-month- old puppy -- but the seriousness of --

(LAUGHTER)

BARNES: -- the seriousness of the office is truly something that is -- that you put politics aside. You cannot do this on your own. You cannot forge a path forward without the assistance of -- sorry --

LEMON: It's OK. Go on.

BARNES: -- you cannot go forward without the assistance of other leaders. I mean, truthfully, you know, if you ask President Obama, he, you know, looked to President Bush on certain things and President Bush looked to President Clinton on certain things, who, you know, also looked back to his predecessor. So, I think that that speaks to the communal nature of the office. And once you get there -- I have so much respect for all of my colleagues who worked on both sides of the aisle, who served this country in the White House.

You know, it is not an easy job because everything that comes across the desk of a president, by the time it gets to them, that means this is the absolute last option, and they're looking for real true leadership and guidance.

So this is personal pettiness and politics aside. This honestly is a moment in our country where you could rely on that, I would say brotherhood. But maybe in the future, it will include a female, where you can rely on the congenial (ph) nature of other leaders and to put your minds together for something for better.

[23:45:03]

LEMON: Yeah. I just wonder, considering all that this current president has said about the former president, if he would indeed want to stand there and have this president be the person to do that.

BARNES: You know --

LEMON: It's hard. It's hard.

BARNES: But that's the great thing about President Obama and just like the formers. You don't need a bunch of kind words to do your job. You don't need praise to be heaped on you to go out there and fight for what's right. You just do your job. You roll up your sleeves and do your job and you don't expect any praise.

LEMON: Yeah. I think my answer would be I'm good. Thank you. OK --

BARNES: Yeah (ph).

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Thank you. Thanks but no thanks.

BARNES: I'm not sure many of them would actually want to attend that ceremony right now.

LEMON: Yeah. Thanks but no thanks. I'll catch you on the flip side. Thank you, Desiree. Good to see you. What's the puppy's name?

BARNES: Bear.

(LAUGHTER)

BARNES: I know.

LEMON: Very cute. Pets are helping us get through this. So, I congratulate you on your new puppy, your new dog. Thank you so much.

BARNES: Thank you so much for having us.

LEMON: Some pro-sports are making plans to reopen and some governors are giving them the green light. I'm going to ask San Francisco 49ers sports medicine physician what we can expect, next.

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[23:50:00]

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LEMON: The governors of California, New York, and Texas are all announcing this week that sports can resume in their states with limitations in the near future. But teams will have to play in empty stadiums and other new rules and procedures are being put in place to protect players, coaches, and staff.

Let's discuss with Dr. Anthony Salumbini, the sports medicine physician for the San Francisco Giants and the San Francisco 49ers. Thank you, sir. Good to have you on. I'm sure a lot of people are happy about this.

ANTHONY SAGLIMBENI, SPORTS MEDICINE PHYSICIAN, SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS: Thank you.

LEMON: Multiple media outlets are reporting on new rules, a proposal from Major League Baseball to start the season, OK? So in addition to playing in empty stadiums, there will be frequent testing and screening of players, coaches and umpires. Social distancing would be encouraged in the dugout.

Players would be prohibited from spitting. OK, good luck with that. Players would be prohibited from chewing sunflower seeds and even high-fiving each other. Good luck with all of that. And a new ball would be used any time it is put in play and touched by players.

OK. So, what's your assessment of these new rules? Is this enough to start the season safely for players? Is it too cumbersome? What? What do you think?

SAGLIMBENI: Well, I think a little of both. I think it's been really detailed in thought as far as things like density of the people that are involved, how to practice and get ready to be able to play safe even without the infection from the standpoint of conditioning.

But, at the same time, baseball and most sports have a tradition and really their own culture, and we're going to be asked to really make a cultural shift to be able to accommodate all these policies and protocols to try to do this in a safe way.

So I think -- I think it is well thought out, but I think it's going to be a challenge for everybody involved to shift from their normal behaviors.

LEMON: Do you have a sense of how the players feel about these rules and also about taking the field -- taking to the field at all?

SAGLIMBENI: Well, I think like everyone else, there's -- you know, they're human. And I think they have aspects on both sides of that option where they have some respect and fear for what's going on with the pandemic and want to be sure that they're not putting themselves and their teammates and their families at risk.

But on the other side of the coin, they've been, you know, really anxious to get past this and get back into their routine just like everybody else who might go to an office and do their work usually or practice their career. They're trying to learn like we all are how they can get back to their regular life and get that joy back without risking their health and the health of the people they care about.

LEMON: All right. Let's talk about some football now. Teams are allowed to reopen facilities for players undergoing rehab starting today, and the NFL's chief medical officer spoke on a conference call this afternoon. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALLEN SILLS, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, NFL (voice-over): We fully well expect that we will have positive cases that arise because we think that this disease will remain endemic in society. And so it shouldn't be a surprise that new positive cases arise. Our challenge is to identify them as quickly as possible and to prevent spread to any other participants.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, you know, this sounds like -- it sounds like the league is preparing for when a player becomes exposed and not if. Is it a foregone conclusion?

SAGLIMBENI: Well, I think it's -- well, what we have to realize is this is an infection. It's a virus. It's a force of nature. And we, the medical community, the scientific community, our job has been to try to fight it. But it is a force of nature and it's got certain controls that we can't overcome.

[23:54:56]

SAGLIMBENI: So, when you look at pandemics and how they've happened in centuries and decades past, a lot of times they don't just die out in several weeks or months. They can have big spikes at the beginning and maybe it calms down later. There are other patterns, as well. And I think to say that we would expect no cases would be a little bit naive.

So Dr. Sills is leaning on the history of other infections that are similar to this and what could happen as we try to go back to work.

LEMON: Dr. Saglimbeni, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Good luck. Stay safe.

SAGLIMBENI: Great. Thank you.

LEMON: And thank you for watching, everyone. I appreciate it. Our coverage continues.

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