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Don Lemon Tonight

Highest Death Toll Recorded By WHO; President Trump Claims Mail-in Voting Leads To Voter Fraud; Trump Accuses China Of Mass Killing; Seventeen States Show An Uptick In Cases; Models Show Cost Of Lockdown Delays; Crowds Flock To Beaches And Rivers; Colorado Beaches Closed Until Further Notice After Getting Swarmed By Crowds; Interview With Gov. Jared Polis (D-CO); Coronavirus Causing Disastrous Financial Strain For Small Farms And Ranchers. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired May 20, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: That's our greatest strength here. Our diversity, our determination to be interconnected, interdependent especially in a time of need.

Thank you for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon right now. to

Going full love gov. I see. Or did they finally tell you to be quiet?

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: I saw your brother do it and it made me think of something. It's actually serious. Everyone should be wearing this, right? Because you're doing it for other people. And, by the way, they're designer now this one is from --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: That is a nice one.

LEMON: This is Rhoback, you know that company I always wear and you said, you guys have interest in that company because this is a really nice one. But the reason I have this on is because I remember the first day I saw you after you tested negative, and gave you a big hug and I kissed you unintentionally on the cheek with the face mask on. And I said, I hope he doesn't think that I'm treating him any differently. I just had a handful of bags or whatever.

And I was wondering, I talking to a friend that I had been texting you about who had COVID and I said a double pneumonia. Remember I texted you a couple of days ago and you said it happens? About stigma, people who have had COVID. And I was wondering if people

are treating you any differently or people talk to you since you have had it about the -- a stigma that they are seeing or feeling from people because they've had the coronavirus?

CUOMO: Well, certainly the politicizing of the situation has certainly garnered attention where people are treating me in very special ways. But there's no question, D., that people get freaked out. They don't want to get sick. And we don't know -- the unknown is more scary than the known very often.

And do you really have antibodies that make a difference? And can I really not get you sick? Could I not still be carrying the virus? We don't know. And that's frightening. And I think that we have to accept that and not judge that people don't know how to feel about what they don't know.

So, absolutely. I didn't touch my own kids in a real way, you know, the way I wanted to, for many days after that. I was hesitant. Because you just don't know --

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: -- and that's the scariest part of this. So, the answer is yes and it's OK.

LEMON: Yes. Well, I mean, when I saw you -- but still even when we see each other now, it's six feet apart, right? I saw you, I was like, it was good to see you. I still had the mask on. You had yours. I hope he doesn't think I'm treating him any differently because of that.

But still, when I see you at work, six feet apart. You know, we do the whole social distancing thing that we're supposed to do, but it just made me think about that. I've been talking about it with Tim and I talked about it with a friend now who is actually going through COVID- 19.

And that is a real concern, especially about, you know, having, you know, if you want to have someone come over and do work at your home, you know. You have a -- you know, you need something done with an electrician or with a carpenter or, you know, maybe you need some sort of landscaping or something done. I wonder if people are -- if they say, can't do it, sorry. Can't come to your house. Just anything like that.

CUOMO: Yes. We had that happen, too. Where to open the pool this season, the company was worried. They were like, we know that your son, you know, was sick. Is it OK? That's totally understandable. I mean, people should be worried. You should err on the side of caution.

Funny story. I had this woman bust down the street in Sag Harbor. I wasn't really paying attention to what was going on. I was on the phone. I look and she hits me right in the chest. And she's like, I'm negative and have antibodies, too. Gave me a big hug. And she's like, I'm the only one in my family, the first person I've been able to hug. I was like, all right. OK.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: You know, I was looking around for people with cameras.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: But I'll tell you, of all the things you've done to me that make me wonder why you're doing it, that was the least. LEMON: That was the least. Because the one good thing about these

masks is that people say, I didn't recognize you. Ad I'm like, that's good.

CUOMO: You see the swab thing I did with Andrew?

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Come on, you know you liked it.

LEMON: That was mean.

CUOMO: No, it wasn't. You laughed and you loved it.

LEMON: No, that was mean. I don't like when people are intentionally mean.

CUOMO: Listen to you.

LEMON: You know, I'm on Andrew's side.

CUOMO: No, you're not.

LEMON: Thank you, sir. See you later.

CUOMO: he doesn't like you by the way.

LEMON: By the way, I don't want that tie back because it's all -- it's all messed up. See you later. Got to run. Have a big show ahead.

CUOMO: Have a great show.

LEMON: All right.

CUOMO: I love you, Don Lemon.

LEMON: Thank you, thank you. You as well.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

We've got breaking news tonight about the coronavirus and the death toll in this country because it passes 93,000 tonight. The World Health Organization reporting the largest single-day increases in cases since the outbreak began. And warning that we still have a long way to go in this pandemic.

And in the middle of all of this, the President of the United States isn't acting presidential at all. Listen to what he says tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would you have done differently facing this crisis?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, nothing. If you take New York and New Jersey, which were very hard hit, we were very, very low.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Nothing. He doesn't think he should have done anything differently with more than 93,000 Americans dead. Think about that. He hasn't changed. He hasn't learned anything.

[22:05:05]

When you think that he'd be laser focused on the deadly pandemic that is killing Americans every day, his behavior is, and I'm being frank here, erratic, lobbing distractions and deflections.

Just look at how the president spent his day with the virus spreading, OK? With more Americans dying. First off, he's doubling down on his false accusations that voting by mail leads to voter fraud, OK? Why is he talking about this right now? Because he is worried that states will expand vote by mail in an effort to keep their citizens safe during this pandemic.

And to this president that is a bad thing for reasons we will explain to you. What you're about to hear is a false claim, so I hate to even play it, but I need you to hear how freaked out he is by the idea that a lot more people could be voting by mail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Well, I think if we're talking about the mail-in ballots, if people mail in ballots, there is a lot of illegality. They send in ballots that they harvest, ballots, you know all about harvesting and they do lots of bad things. Ideally, people go out and they vote.

Now, if you need a mail-in ballot, if you need a specific -- like as an example, I'm in the White House and I have to send the ballot to Florida, that makes sense. So if you need it for some reason or if somebody is not well that's one thing, but when you send out 7.7 million mail-in ballots, there's forgeries, there's, frankly, duplication where they print ballots on the same kind of paper with the same kind of machinery and you can't tell the difference and they send in thousands and thousands of fake ballots.

And I'll tell you what, this nation can't be going down that path because it's a very dangerous path to go down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That is a -- that's a lot of baseless accusations of voter fraud that he's throwing around there. Because the fact is voter fraud is extremely rare, whether by mail or in person. Extremely rare.

Remember that voter fraud panel the president set up in 2017? Then disbanded less than eight months later. Because they found nothing. Remember that?

When this president woke up this morning, he falsely accused Michigan and Nevada of voter fraud for taking steps to make it easier for people to vote by mail in the middle of a deadly pandemic. Which you'd think would be a good thing, protecting voters, protecting poll workers and making sure people don't have to choose between their votes and their health.

You would think that would be a good thing, right? But the president does not. He threatened to hold up emergency funding for those states. Legal experts say he doesn't have the power to hold up appropriated funding. That's up to Congress.

And the fact is Americans are in favor of voting by mail. Sixty-four percent in the Gallup poll just last month. But you heard the president's do as I say not as I do defense of his own voting by mail in Florida's primary. Voting by mail in Florida, he did. And it's not the first time that he tried to defend that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You were highly critical of mail-in voting, mail- in ballots for voting.

TRUMP: I think mail-in voting is horrible. It's corrupt.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You voted in Florida's election last month, didn't you?

TRUMP: Sure, I can vote by mail for the --

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you reconcile that?

TRUMP: Because I'm allowed to. That's called out of state. You know why I voted? Because I happened to be in the White House and I won't be able to go to Florida to vote.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. One day later giving away his game, putting it in writing, tweeting that voting by mail doesn't work out well for Republicans. You've got to wonder whether he had one particular Republican in mind. It's almost as if this president -- who never tires of telling us how popular he is -- doesn't want to prove it with free and fair voting. The Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany saying this today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president is after all the president, which means he's here in Washington. He's unable to cast his vote down in Florida, his state of residence. So, for him that's why he had to do a mail-in vote, but he supports mail-in voting for a reason. When you have a reason that you are unable to be present.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The pandemic going on. MCENANY: Right now, we're very far from November 3rd.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: CNN's Kaitlan Collins making an excellent point. There's a really good reason for voting by mail, and that reason is the pandemic that has killed more than 93,000 Americans. As all 50 states are beginning to reopen.

And the president's erratic behavior goes on. He's continuing to ignore his own FDA's warnings and insisting on taking hydroxychloroquine. He confirmed tonight that he is still taking the drug despite warnings of serious side effects and will be for another two days.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think the regimen finishes in a day or two. I think it's two days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:10:02]

LEMON: But that is not the end of the president's distractions and deflection. His wild accusations in the middle of this pandemic. Today he is once again attacking a juror in a court case, specifically accusing the foreperson in the trial of longtime Trump crony and self- proclaimed dirty trickster Roger Stone who was found guilty of lying to Congress and threatening to -- threatening a witness and is appealing his sentence, accusing that foreperson of bias.

If there were any truth to that, wouldn't you think Stone's defense team would have tried to remove her? They did not.

The president in that same tweet essentially falsely accusing TV personality Joe Scarborough, with whom he has a running feud, of murder. Another utterly baseless accusation.

Authorities in Florida have ruled the death of an aide in Scarborough's congressional office back in 2001 as accidental. A police investigator told the Washington Post in 2017 that authorities had left no stone unturned. But that fact is not stopping the president from hurling baseless accusations.

Today he is accusing the Chinese government of what he calls mass worldwide killing in this pandemic. Even though he spent months praising and making excuses for that same Chinese government.

The president now blaming what he calls the incompetence of China. That's really something coming from the president who downplayed the virus for months, saying it would go away in warm weather, suggesting ingesting disinfectant might be a treatment and promoting and taking a drug with the potential for serious side effects.

China is certainly not blameless, but you wouldn't know that from the way this President Talked about them for months.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you trust that we're going know everything we need to know from China?

TRUMP: I do. I do. I have a great relationship with President Xi.

I had a long talk for President Xi, for the people in this room, two nights ago. And he feels very confident. He feels very confident.

Well, think China is very, you know, professionally run in the sense that they have everything under control. I really believe they are going to have it under control fairly soon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some people don't seem to trust the data coming out of China. Are you worried about that?

TRUMP: Look, I know this, president xi loves the people of China. He loves his country. And he's doing a very good job with a very, very tough situation.

So, I had a great conversation with the president of China last night pretty late in the night. It was fascinating to me. You know, they have a whole -- it's a different kind of a world. It's a different form of government, to put to mildly. So, look, the relationship with China is a good one, and my relationship with him is, you know, really good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And then there's, wait for it, this president's Obama obsession. He continues to cook up conspiracy theories about his predecessor and his current campaign rival. Throwing around baseless accusations that there was something criminal about their behavior at the start of the Russia investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Some terrible things happened and it should never be allowed to happen in our country again. And you'll be seeing what's going on over the next -- over the coming weeks, but I -- and I wish you'd write honestly about it, but, unfortunately, you choose not to do so. Yes, Jon, please.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is the crime exactly you're accusing him of?

TRUMP: You know what the crime is. The crime is very obvious to everybody. All you have to do is read the newspapers, except yours.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Can't define it. Because he doesn't know. Can't define it. Maybe because there is no -- even though his own hand-picked attorney general says this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: Now, as to President Obama and Vice President Biden, whatever their level of involvement, based on the information I have today, I don't expect Mr. Durham's work will lead to a criminal investigation of either man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Why did he even have to mention Biden? It's like when did you stop beating your wife? Whatever their level of we don't -- you guys can't see through that? Wow. These guys are -- bizarre accusations, erratic behavior, distractions and deflections.

The president feels threatened by his own failures in handling this pandemic. Among other things. Threatened by an economy in crisis. With 36 million Americans unemployed. Threatened that all of that could throw his re-election into doubt.

[22:14:56]

So, he resorts to distractions and deflections while Americans are dying. That's the truth.

We are not on the other side of this virus, yet the president is ignoring his own experts. He's ignoring science. He is lashing out.

CNN's Kaitlan Collins, David Gregory, both weigh in after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: More than 93,000 Americans have died from the coronavirus and as all 50 states are partially reopened as of today, at least 17 states are seeing an upward tick in cases. And yet, through all of this, President Trump on a Twitter tirade today pushing falsehoods and conspiracy theories.

Let's bring in CNN's White House Correspondent, Kaitlan Collins and CNN political analyst David Gregory. Good evening to both of you. Kaitlan, the president lashing out at everything. Mail-in voting, China, on and on, allegations and conspiracy theories. We're approaching 100,000 U.S. coronavirus deaths, so what gives here?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It's hard to say, you know, when the president chooses to focus in on a certain something, when often you see from his Twitter feed really a view into what he's paying attention to that day, and often it is not always the coronavirus at the top of the list. As we saw with Michigan today.

[22:20:06]

Something that, you know, wasn't really something that had been on the president's radar, talking about these mail-in voting applications that the president was talking about and, you know, then it becomes a whole thing that the White House has to deal with.

That was the focus of the briefing today, and I think a lot of it has to do with the president being frustrated. He wants the economy to reopen. He's very frustrated not only by poll numbers, which he referenced poll numbers that he got in Michigan today, saying they have him going up some.

He told us that in the cabinet room when we were talking about these claims he's made about what is going to happen with this mail-in voting potentially, but also, you know, looking ahead to the economy and dealing with those numbers, the 36 million Americans unemployed, and it's just a larger sense of frustration with the president. But then a lot of this sometimes has to do with what you see on his Twitter feed is also what he's watching on television.

LEMON: David, the WHO, the World Health Organization is reporting the largest single-day increase in cases, but would you ever know the president is governing through a pandemic right now? Is he acting out of fear?

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think he senses how out of control so much of his presidency is around him right now, and I think Kaitlan is right. The Twitter feed is really the window into his thinking.

It reflects how much television he's watching, how much cable he's watching, how much he's buffeted by that and how little discipline he enforces in his own life, and clearly those around him can't seem to enforce that to bring his temperament under control, which is a shame.

The irony is that the president publicly wants us all to think that he's a wartime president, and if that were true, if you think about wartime leaders in the past, he would focus exclusively on combatting the virus, on marshalling all government resources and really keeping everyone's attention on all issues related to the virus, fighting the virus, getting people back to work.

He's doing a lot of those things -- the government is doing a lot of those things, but he allows himself to drift and lose that focus. And part of his nursing grievance, which I think he believes is something that's been good for him because it helps him connect to people who support him. And I just think largely he always has to be fighting someone or something. I think it's lifeblood for him.

LEMON: Kaitlan, the White House is also pointing fingers at the CDC. You pressed the president on that today. Let's watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: You didn't complain about the CDC --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: No, not at all. No, no, no --

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: Do you think they did a good job with testing in the beginning? TRUMP: Well, you know, you're asking me a wise guy question. At the

beginning and, again, I didn't put CDC there. CCDC has been there long before the Trump administration came in, but they had a test that was -- was -- something happened to it. It was soiled. It was -- it was soiled and/or foiled, but it was a problem, a short-term problem. It lasted for about a week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: You know, it was longer than a week, right? So, what's up with the CDC director?

COLLINS: Yes, it was much longer than a week. It was several weeks before they actually figured out what was going on. It was contamination from sloppy lab practices, health officials later admitted.

But it was to see the president denied that he'd been complained about the CDC at a Senate lunch that he had yesterday. We heard from multiple people that he was. And, Don, we even heard someone told us, one source saying that the president was saying, well, the CDC was here before me. You know, it wasn't my administration that did this.

And that was almost verbatim what he was saying there in the cabinet room today. We asked does he have confidence in Dr. Robert Redfield who is the director of the CDC. He said yes and he praised him. And you saw Dr. Birx who we know is actually had tension with the CDC at times, shaking her head yes as the president was praising Dr. Redfield.

But we know that the president has complained about them, he has criticized the CDC for that slow, delayed rollout in testing. Something that we've seen his own trade adviser say on the record and interviews before.

The question is whether it goes anywhere. That doesn't seem to be clear at all right now. You know, how high the president's level of frustration with them is. But there certainly is tension between the White House and the CDC. We've seen that play out with the guidance on multiple occasions.

LEMON: David --

GREGORY: Don, I don't think it's surprising. I mean, look, when all of this is over, the CDC and the FDA are going to have a lot to answer for the delay in the testing and the approval once some of that contamination was discovered. That's a big issue about how government responded beyond the president's individual response.

What's striking, and Kaitlan was getting at it in her question and her analysis is right, which is do you retain confidence? When you're covering a president, it's not just what the president says, it's what they choose not to say. That speaks volumes within their administration, within their team.

This president likes to have people twisting in the wind a bit. He'll criticize them, allow them to be undermined because he likes to consolidate power around himself. And perhaps cultivate a lack of confidence in others.

[22:25:07]

He's even done it to Dr. Fauci, openly disagreeing with him, so it seems to be the most prudent thing to do is not always what this president does, which is to shore up confidence and his own confidence in his top scientists as they're going through very much still the height of all of this.

LEMON: David, I want to ask you about China because the president, you know, he's slamming China, but when he slams China's incompetence, he never really blames President Xi. How much of that is projection?

GREGORY: Well, I think he's trying to balance a number of things here. And any president faces a lot of complications dealing with China because it's a long game. China plays a long game. And America plays a much shorter-term game.

Here there are some short-term politics that work for the president, and that's beating up on China. You hear his secretary of state leading the charge on that, Secretary Pompeo.

But the president also wants to be able to work with China on a vaccine potentially down the road, on treatment. He wants to keep that information flow going for the benefit of the world. And he'd certainly like to pull off a big trade deal because the economy matters so much.

So, he's got to balance all of these things, and, again, I don't think he does any of these things with discipline. I think part of why we keep compiling all of this tape of prior statements is that the president is so inconsistent, and I think he shows that again on China.

And you can almost see the wheels turning. He wants to -- he wants to be able to do several things at once when it comes to managing the China relationship, which is delicate.

LEMON: David, Kaitlan, thank you both. I appreciate it.

Shocking numbers from a new study showing how many lives could have been saved if social distancing had started earlier. I'm going to talk to one of the researchers behind the model next.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We've all been told social distancing is important, but shocking new research from Columbia University takes that to a whole new level. According to a brand-new study, if the U.S. had started social distancing measures one week earlier, about 36,000 fewer people would have died. Joining me now is the leader of this research team, Jeffrey Shaman.

He's the professor of environmental health sciences at Columbia University. Professor Shaman, thank you so much. I appreciate you joining us.

JEFFREY SHAMAN, PROFESSOR, ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH SCIENCES, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

LEMON: So, nearly 36,000 fewer deaths? I mean, this is not only startling and tragic, but it speaks to how quickly this virus spiraled out of control.

SHAMAN: Absolutely. I mean, what we're dealing with is something that really can spread like wildfire through a population. Unfortunately when you have a new novel virus, almost the entire population of the world is susceptible to it. They're all capable of being infected by it, and as it moves into the community, it doubles over a period of time.

Each period of time it will accelerate up, one, two, four, eight and so on number of cases. The consequence of this is, if you don't recognize the problem early, and if you don't jump on it, it's going to really come down on you harder than it would otherwise.

And just a very small backtracking of our social distancing measures, so if we had taken them, in effect, just one week earlier, has a very dramatic effect in reducing the number of cases and deaths that we would have seen thus far.

LEMON: Let's take a -- sorry. Go on. Sorry to cut you off.

SHAMAN: I was going to say it also has implications going forward. Obviously we're trying to find a balance right now in this country where we're loosening restrictions and we're trying to reopen the economy, which is really vital. We have to do it. But simultaneously, we have to maintain control of this virus.

And as we loosen these restrictions, it's possible we could start to have the growth of the virus in a lot of communities if we're not careful. If social distancing practices lapse. If people aren't wearing face masks as they start to go to businesses and restaurants and theaters.

If we don't monitor this and if we don't recognize it really early and jump on it, it's going to jump out of control again. We're going to have problems again. We're going to have growth that's beyond our expectations and we're going to see surges of people coming into hospitals again.

LEMON: I think people are -- I think you're right. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to move on and talk to you about, you know, the study, but I think people are celebrating a little bit too soon. Where things have opened up and they are saying, oh, we're not seeing a rise.

Because I think people are smart and they are actually not going out just because a restaurant or a gym or a barber shop or a nail salon, just because they're open, doesn't mean people are going to those places. So, I think people are celebrating just a little bit too early because people are smarter maybe in some instances than their leaders. Am I wrong about that?

SHAMAN: I don't think you're wrong at all. I think both as a way it was hard to get people convinced that this really was a problem. It's an invisible enemy and it's hard to see, but now that people have seen what's happened in a lot of communities like New Orleans and Chicago now, and New York City, obviously, they're primed for it and they understand that there is a problem.

And even as they loosened restrictions in a lot of communities, a lot of the states are doing it now, it doesn't mean that there is a full wealth of customers that are frequenting these establishments. A lot of people are concerned about it. They're cautious. They have a wait and see approach. They're using face masks. They're social distancing and they're limiting their time out.

LEMON: That's good.

SHAMAN: So a lot -- very good. And a lot of these effects may actually counter it and prevent it from actually getting out of control.

LEMON: Good.

SHAMAN: We may have news going forward with this, but the real key here is if we're not vigilant, if we're not testing and tracing in these communities, we're not actively looking for the virus, it can really sneak up on us.

LEMON: OK.

SHAMAN: And that's a problem.

[22:35:00]

LEMON: Let's talk about the New York metro area alone, 17,500 fewer people would have died, according to your research, by May 3rd if measures had been put in place just a week earlier than they were. Do you -- do you mean the vast majority of deaths would have been prevented?

SHAMAN: Our estimates are that a majority of deaths would have been prevented. Just over 50 percent of them would have been reduced. For the total numbers that we see by May 3rd. If we had acted just a week earlier.

And it really speaks to how sensitive this virus is or how sensitive we have the control of the virus is, if you can get out in front of it really early. That exponential growth phase that it was going through in early March in New York City is devastating.

LEMON: How did you come to these figures? How did you come to these figures? SHAMAN: That's a really good question. So the way we do this is we

actually build a complicated model that depicts the transmission of the virus throughout the United States. And we inform this model by actual case and death and commuting patterns, and we use this to infer what's called the transmissibility of the virus in each county in the United States.

And we can see how it trended over time. And we're able to see how this model then can actually represent, it can actually simulate what actually happened from March 15th through May 3rd. We then exercise a thought experiment where we say, well, what if that level of transmissibility that we're seeing in each county, which changes over time because of social distancing practices.

And we see it. We see this (inaudible) if you may have heard about this, reproductive number diminishing in each county. If we were to walk it back just one week and follow the exact same pattern in each individual county, what are the changes that we see in the number of cases and deaths?

So it's an exercise -- it's called a counterfactual simulation. It's an exercise to see what if we had done exactly what we had done, but just transposed one week earlier. How does that affect how the model reference once goes on in reality? And because the model can actually represents what did happen, we have some confidence that its representing what would have happened if we had done things one week earlier.

LEMON: The leader of a research team at Columbia University who led the, again, that says that 36,000 fewer people would have died in the coronavirus outbreak if social distancing had been put into place just one week earlier. Thank you. We appreciate it. Jeffrey Shaman, thanks so much.

SHAMAN: Thank you for having me.

LEMON: Warmer weather leading to situations where the coronavirus could have spread. Like people crowding around a creek in Colorado. I'm going to ask Colorado Governor Jared Polis about that and what he's doing to keep Coloradans safe over the holiday weekend.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:40:00]

LEMON: Colorado has been gradually reopening its economy since late April. The states safer at home campaign established guidelines for limited reopening of retail businesses, offices and state parks, but as the weather has warmed, crowds have started flocking to rivers and beaches. You don't believe me? Look at that video right there. Now local media reporting Colorado parks and wildlife says beaches will be closed until further notice.

Let's discuss now with Colorado Governor Jared Polis. Good to see you again, governor. Wow. I'm sure you saw that video -- I mean, there are crowds that we can see here along the boulder creek. And there was another huge -- another large beach gathering at Cherry Creek state park outside of Denver.

I mean, the weather's nice, people want to get out, but what goes through your mind when you see this happening? Are you trying to get the state and you know, you are trying to get the state open safely again but I'm sure you go, whoa, whoa, whoa, people?

GOV. JARED POLIS (D-CO): Well, first, Don, I bet you and many others are surprised that we have beaches in Colorado.

LEMON: No, I'm not. Nope, nope, not at all.

POLIS: We got it all.

LEMON: I'm sure some people are surprised, though, you're actually right. I'm sure some people are surprised by that.

POLIS: So, Boulder has closed down that area near Boulder Creek. Parks and wildlife is taking action. We don't want this to be a setback for our state, for our health, for our economy but, you know, there is also the untold story of the vast majority of Coloradans staying home when they can, wearing masks when they go out, successfully doing social distancing. We see that in the numbers, Don. The infection rates down. More hospital beds available. We know that what attracts attention is more the exception than the rule.

LEMON: Yes, you know, you took the -- I thought about that because I was watching the news -- you know, I'm here in New York and you see on the local news, like, all of these people who are out and some of them are hanging out and they're not wearing masks and police have to confront them. And then you realize, you know, its 100, maybe 50 -- there are at least 10 million people in New York City, right.

POLIS: Yes, and nobody's out taking pictures of all the people that are successfully doing distancing and wearing masks. It's just interesting. You know, it's a traditional, you know, man bites dog. That what gets the culprits, right?

LEMON: But it does not make what those folks are doing out there on the creek and on the beaches right. They should be social distancing and following the rules that you, the governor of New York and you as the governor of Colorado that you put in place. They should be following them, correct?

POLIS: Absolutely. Everybody should, you know, in reality, Don, we know everybody doesn't, but as long as, you know, most of the population is, we're good on a numerical basis.

LEMON: Yes.

POLIS: There is always going to be a few folks out there that like to break rules, that like to go 100 miles an hour in a 70-mile-an-hour zone, but thankfully most people obey the speed limits.

LEMON: I understand that you're going to be looking at reopening camps and ski resorts for summer activities in the next few days. What kind of restrictions have to be put in place to make that happen, governor? POLIS: So, this is another great surprise for your viewers nationally.

We have skiing in June and sometimes July. In Arapahoe Basin, in Wolf Creek and sometimes Loveland. So, yes, our order around skiing expires in just a few days. It will be up to the counties and the resorts. There's only a few that have enough snow.

[22:45:11]

It will only be single-member households on each lift. No mixing and matching between different people. Really, guest limitations around the numbers and none of the traditional kind of Arapahoe ski. I mean none of the hanging around, drinking, eating issues, yes.

You know, skiing itself is safe. It's hanging out in the community, and bars, and nightclubs that is not happening this ski season. It puts us all in jeopardy. But Coloradans would love to get back out on the slopes one more time, at least those who can before summer sets in.

LEMON: Yes. The Colorado Department of Public Health has released draft guidelines, governor that restaurants would have to follow to reopen. And that's a really big concern. I don't know if you've been watching. We've been showing you how quickly things can spread in restaurants.

Let me show you these guidelines include. A minimum of eight feet between tables. Groups of six or less mandatory face coverings and gloves for employees. Sanitizing of shared surfaces each time a table is used. Do you think this is realistic and do you think -- is it enough?

POLIS: Well, you know, we have it out for public comment now and we've gotten a lot of great feedback. Over 1,000 folks have commented, customers, restaurants. Like so many across the country, we want to do this in a safe way, we want to do it in a way where we our restaurants can stay in business and that people can go out in a reasonably safe way and have a good time without putting themselves in a higher risk category.

So, look, just like when we opened stores a few weeks ago, not everybody should go to stores. And I wouldn't recommend that people over 65 go out to restaurants. But there are already people who are ready to do it and we want them to be able to do it in a safe way.

LEMON: And if you see the numbers creeping up, you'll have to readjust, right?

POLIS: You know, we try to track the numbers on a site basis. The goal is if we see infections rise in a certain area, we need to have strong action in that area. We certainly hope it's not statewide, Don. I mean, that would be a huge setback. But I think that anywhere across the country you can expect that there can be site-based outbreaks that need prompt, strong responses in that area.

LEMON: All right. Governor, thank you for your time. We'll see you soon. Thank you very much. POLIS: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: The coronavirus putting enormous pressure on farmers as they're forced to dump milk, euthanize hogs and destroy fresh produce. I'm going to ask renowned Chef Dan Barber about what he is calling a generational catastrophe, next.

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[22:50:00]

LEMON: The coronavirus sending shockwaves through the economy with restaurants purchasing far less foods. Small farmers around the country are struggling to stay afloat. What would losing many of America's small farms mean for the U.S. food supply?

Let's discuss now with the great Chef Dan Barber. He is the executive chef and co-owner of Blue Hill, right here in New York City and the co-creator of Resource, a project that works to support the economy and the ecology around small and independent farms.

And we are so happy to have him. Thank you, chef. You surveyed hundreds of farmers, and the results were shocking, 30 percent said that they could face bankruptcy by the end of the year. And you called this a generational catastrophe. Explain.

DAN BARBER, EXECUTIVE CHEF AND CO-OWNER OF BLUE HILL: Well, first, that's -- you know, the news, the newspapers everywhere, the news is that farmers, small independent farmers, are doing great in this moment in the last two months, actually record sales. But when I was talking to farmers in our network that supply our restaurant, Blue Hill, and with this program that we've started since we shuttered, the news was just dire if you ask a specific question, really.

And this question was, what happens if this continues? If we're in August and September and restaurant sales are down 50 percent, which I think is a conservative estimate actually, and farmer's market sales are down 50 percent because of social distancing, what does it look like for you then?

And the answer is we'll be bankrupt. That was -- that was a core group of our star farmers pretty much right away. And then we expanded the survey. We went around the country, 250 in the local northeast area, greater Hudson Valley, and around the country.

And all told, it's about 30 percent to 40 percent who are saying if those conditions exist in August and September, they will be bankrupt, and that is a catastrophe, yes.

LEMON: Listen. I think you've answered my next question with that. But I want to ask you to explain a little bit more because a lot of these farmers are now selling their produce to consumers through closed, restaurants, co-ops, delivering directly. But can they make it that way over the longer term?

BARBER: Right. The gross revenues of that are quite impressive, especially at a time of year that's generally slow. We are heading out of the slow time of the year. So, any increase in sales with fixed labor, ends up making, you know, revenues skyrocket.

But as we enter into the season where produces, were vegetables and fruits are being harvested and the transaction costs of all these retail deliveries, instead of one bulk delivery to a restaurant or institution is very costly. And once they are doing these numbers, they're realizing that it's not sustainable.

LEMON: This is surprising. You know, since so much money has been put out there to get to farmers and, you know, the president talks about how much he's giving to the farmers and so on and so forth. But, Dan, nearly 40 percent of these farmers you surveyed have applied for government support, but almost 60 percent have not received funds. Why can't they get the government support? What's going on?

[22:55:00]

BARBER: Yes, very confusing. A lot of these farmers really don't have the time, the expertise, the patience to get into these programs which are often confusing. And so -- and there's also, you know, a bias against these kind of programs which even if they don't amount to loans, they feel like loans. And if you follow a survey, it's almost unanimous.

No farmers want to take on more loans. It's just delaying the inevitable. And so, I think the survey is something like 70 percent said if there was a choice being loan or bankruptcy, they would go bankrupt.

LEMON: My goodness. Well, Dan, good luck, be safe. And we hope to have you back to discuss this. Keep us updated on it, OK?

BARBER: Yes, it's an unfolding story. So, let's keep in touch for sure.

LEMON: Well, we have been, you know, keeping this story going when it comes to restaurants and farmers, so we're on top of this. So, not to worry. We'll continue.

BARBER: I bet you are. But we can prevent this is the good news. So, I'll leave it at that.

LEMON: Thank you, Dan. We appreciate it.

BARBER: Thank you very much.

LEMON: Coronavirus deaths in the U.S. passing 93,000 as all states are now at least partially reopened. And the president is looking for someone else to blame. All the latest just ahead.

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