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Don Lemon Tonight

Health Experts Say Complacency Kills; Protesters Went Wild Over George Floyd's Death; Owner Of Store That Called Police On George Floyd Speaks Out; Researchers Report Some African-American COVID-19 Victims Had Lungs Clogged With Blood Clots; Some Experts Say Six Feet Of Distance May Not Be Enough To Prevent Coronavirus Transmission. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired May 27, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Thank you, Mr. Attorney General. We appreciate you joining us.

So, listen, I have to tell you, the body cam footage has been released. CNN is bringing that in now. We're looking at it. We hope to get it on very soon. Have you seen it? Are you aware of what it shows? And if it differs in any way from the video that we have all seen?

KEITH ELLISON, ATTORNEY GENERAL, MINNESOTA: Don, I have looked at every available video that there is. I can't say for certain that I've seen every single video. But I've been reviewing video this afternoon. And I think that I consider myself up on what the video shows so far.

LEMON: And can you say what is in that video? Does it differ in any way to any of the video that has aired or the video that you saw in the previous segment about Mr. Floyd's behavior and the police tactics and training and techniques and so on and so forth?

ELLISON: Well, what I can tell you is that there's a video of him being taken out of a car. He does -- he appears to be compliant. He's escorted up to near a building. He appears to be compliant.

But the critical issue is that what happened to him after he was thrown, handcuffed, behind his back, face down on the concrete, knee into his neck. These are the critical issues that juries will have to decide, that prosecutors will have to evaluate that evidence to determine what, if any, charges should be brought forth.

I could tell you that this case is being investigated, being taken very seriously. Everyone from the governor, lieutenant governor, myself have seen the tape and express humane and human reactions to it.

But ultimately, it's going to be a jury or a fact finder who's going to decide, you know, what the fate of these officers is ultimately going to be. I want to make sure that this investigation is considered fair at every stage so that nobody can say that this investigation was not absolutely fair, charged based on the law, and in the consequences are also according to justice and to law. But -- (CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Well, see, that's it. Let me ask you this. Because Floyd died on Monday night. The officers involved were fired the very next day, Mr. Ellison. That is almost unheard of in situations like this. What does it say to you about these investigations?

ELLISON: Well, what it says to me is that the city of Minneapolis is taking this very seriously, that the police chief understands that in order to have a police department that reflects justice, law, fairness, and the proper relationship to the citizens that people who don't uphold those values should not maintain their status on the police department.

LEMON: This is what -- I spoke to the Floyd --

(CROSSTALK)

ELLISON: I think --

LEMON: I spoke to the family last night. I want you to listen. This is what the cousin told me. And then I'll get your reaction. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TERA BROWN, GEORGE FLOYD'S COUSIN: Firing them is a good start, but we want to see justice for our family. And we want to see them charged. We want to have them arrested. What they did was -- was murder. And almost the whole world has witnessed that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What's your reaction to that, sir?

ELLISON: My reaction is that I completely empathize with where she is. I think that, you know, these officers demonstrated a level of conduct which was contrary to the policy, values, and training that is expected of them. And that's why they can't be members of the police department anymore.

But I would just say to everybody, we have got to go through the normal course because any good defense attorney is going to look for any -- any t that's not crossed or I that's not dotted in order to try to say that these officers didn't get treated fairly.

That's why it is important for the investigation to go forward, it is the right to be expeditious, fast, but also thorough. And then that they be charged, if they will be charged -- I'm even reluctant to say that they will be charged because, look, we're going to let the facts guide us if had that regard, right?

LEMON: Understood.

ELLISON: And then --

LEMON: Understood. You don't want to do anything that will jeopardize this case, and I understand that as a law enforcement officer, and the chief law enforcement officer.

ELLISON: Right.

LEMON: So, let me ask you this.

ELLISON: Right.

LEMON: It is your job to uphold the law. Listen, no one is condoning these protests. We understand that people are angry. I stated that to my colleague Chris Cuomo. And I can't under -- I can understand the anger there, but I don't -- I don't understand in some way the burning of buildings.

[23:05:06]

And we don't know how this fire started. But I understand the anger. But what do you say to the protesters who were out there or if this fire was indeed started by one of protesters or because of the situation there, what do say to those folks?

ELLISON: What I say to them is that the overwhelming number of people are demonstrating their First Amendment rights, their outrage, and their demand for a fair, just resolution of this case.

And the few people who decide to turn it into a wrong direction are not helping the cause of the Floyd family. The Floyd family wants to see justice. They don't want to see somebody turn this thing into something that it really shouldn't be which is some sort of issue having to do with some sort of violation of law.

What they want to keep the focus on is what happened to their loved one George Floyd. I urge all protesters, be safe. Do the right thing. And make sure that Mr. Floyd remains the center of this and that we don't get distracted by somebody's momentary outrage. It is -- it would not be what the -- it would not uphold Mr. Floyd's dignity to do something like that.

LEMON: Well said, sir. Keith Ellison, I appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

ELLISON: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Be safe. Thank you, thank you.

So, we'll continue on here. We'll continue to follow that. And we have much more to talk about here on CNN.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. A little past the top of the hour.

The United States has reached a terrible milestone in the coronavirus pandemic. It has now killed more than 100,000 Americans. That's almost twice the number of Americans lost during the entire Vietnam War.

To put the severity of the coronavirus into perspective, the first known U.S. death from the disease was on February 6th. That was the first known death. That was less than four months ago. Those who have died are mothers. They're fathers, they're sisters, they're brothers, husbands, and wives, grandparents even.

President Trump noticeably silent tonight in the middle of this tragic news in the number of cases of coronavirus continues to climb. Now nearly 1.7 million confirmed cases here in the United States.

As we wait on the body cam video coming in from Minneapolis, Minnesota, I'm going to bring in Dr. Jonathan Reiner to talk about this grim milestone that we've reached. He's director of the Cardiac Catheterization Program at George Washington University Hospital and the former Vice President Dick Cheney's cardiologist at that. Thank you, sir. I appreciate you joining us.

JONATHAN REINER, DIRECTOR OF CARDIAC CATHETERIZATION PROGRAM, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL: Good evening.

LEMON: So, the first coronavirus death in the U.S. was about February 6th, and I say first known, right, because you know that could change as we look back and they get more information.

It's still not -- it's now more than four months later. Over 100,000 deaths. The President of the United States has still said nothing, nothing, nothing about 100,000 American lives lost and there is no denying that this could have been avoided.

REINER: Right. There were really two unforgivable errors made early on in this pandemic. The first was the incredibly slow march to testing. The first positive test in the United States was January 20th, and it took almost two months for the U.S. to test the next 20,000 people at a time when South Korea was doing many times that.

The second really unforgivable error made in the early days and continuing to know was the horribly mixed messages and initially actually counter messages about wearing masks.

On February 29th, the surgeon general of the United States actually scolded the American public about buying masks, told them not to buy masks.

We were facing a respiratory pathogen. We've known for a century that masks prevent the spread of this disease. You look at photographs from the 1918 flu pandemic, everyone in those photographs are wearing masks. Yet this government warned the public not to wear masks.

And during that time, the virus rode our subways and our airplanes and travelled the highways and now 100,000 people are dead. Great -- I think the greatest failing of any administration in the history of this country. And this was all avoidable. Don, Hong Kong has about the same population as New York City.

LEMON: Right.

REINER: Almost 8 million people. And they got their first infections right around the same time that New York did. Hong Kong has had four deaths. New York has had 20,000.

[23:09:55] LEMON: Take a look at this U.S. death toll compared to other countries since you mentioned that, OK? We have about 30 deaths per 100,000 people. Germany has seen about 10 deaths per 100,000. Japan, South Korea have lost even fewer people per capita. So, again, you were just talking about this. Hong Kong. How do you -- how do you explain this, doctor?

REINER: We let the -- we let the virus run rampant when simple public health maneuvers would have stopped it.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: So, I'm going to play devil's advocate here, OK?

REINER: Yes.

LEMON: The ban, China travel -- I mean, it wasn't a complete ban. That's a misnomer. It was a restriction. But what about the ban?

REINER: Yes.

LEMON: What about that?

REINER: So --

LEMON: What about social distancing and I shut the economy down and so on and so forth?

REINER: Right. So, closing -- closing some of the travel from China -- because it's been reported that about 40,000 people subsequently came from China after the travel ban -- is like closing the screen door on the front of your house and leaving the back door completely open.

Because we know that the virus came to the east coast, particularly New York, from Europe. So, we had the incomplete travel ban. The ban on people coming directly from China was a good thing to do, but it was only one out of ten things to do.

But the simple things, you know, contact tracing, aggressive testing, wearing masks. None of this was done. We wasted time hyping completely worthless therapies like hydroxychloroquine. You know, we chased down blind alleys.

All the while, this virus was spreading around this country. We didn't protect our elderly, you know, our parents and grandparents in nursing home. About a third of the deaths in this country are in nursing homes, our most vulnerable. You know, they say that, you know, you judge the character of the society by how we treat our most vulnerable, and we've completely failed them.

LEMON: So, listen, we have been told repeatedly to stay six feet away from people. But experts are now saying, doctor, this is in the Journal Science, that that is not enough. This is troubling for many to hear. I mean, tell us about these new findings.

REINER: Yes. So, you know, traditional respiratory preventions are really designed to prevent the passage of pathogens that come from a cough or sneeze. But this virus is really contagious, and this virus can be transmitted through breathing and talking.

The virus is transmitted through droplets which you can contain if you move about six feet away. But it's also transmitted by aerosol, by small particles, submicron size particles that can travel up to 20 feet.

So, this notion that, you know, if you stand about six feet away, that comes from, you know, almost a century-old data. You know, back from the original flu pandemic. It's really not contemporary data. The way you stop the spread of this virus is for everyone to wear a mask, everyone to wear a mask. Ninety-nine percent of people in places like Korea wear masks, and that's how the virus is stopped.

LEMON: Doctor, thank you for your time. I'll see you soon. I appreciate it.

REINER: My pleasure. Sure.

LEMON: I want to bring in now our resident fact checker, Mr. Daniel Dale. Daniel, hello to you. Over 100,000 coronavirus deaths in the U.S. an appalling milestone, really, and one the president predicted we would never reach. Contrary to what he has said, this virus was never under control.

DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: It was never under control. And Don, he said it was under control in January when that seemed questionable at best. He said it was under control in February when I think it seemed dubious. And he said it was under control into mid-March when that was clearly false. Listen to some of the things he said over those few months.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We have it under control. It's going to be just fine.

We think we have it very well under control. We have very little problem in this country at this moment, five, and those people are all recuperating successfully.

By April, you know, in theory, when it gets a little warmer it miraculously goes away.

The coronavirus, which is very well under control in our country.

We're going down, not up. We're going very substantially down, not up.

When you have 15 people and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down close to zero, that's a pretty good job we've done.

We're doing a great job with it. It will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.

(END VIDEO CLIP) DALE: Don, he finally acknowledged on March 20th that it was, quote,

"out of control," but by then he deceived the country over and over again.

LEMON: Yes. And then finally, I knew it was a pandemic all along. Wait what?

So, Daniel, listen, Trump is defending his handling of this crisis claiming if he hadn't done a good job the death toll would be up to two million by now. Give us the facts on that.

DALE: So, it's not my job as a fact checker to say whether he did a good job or bad job. But here are few facts.

[23:14:59]

One as you've noted, South Korea which had its first confirmed case on just the same day in January has about 300 deaths, not the 100,000 the U.S. has.

Two, it's an expert consensus that Trump, the administration, the U.S. government broadly were critically slow to take essential steps like implementing a broad-based testing and tracing system that could have significantly slow the spread in the United States.

Number three, that two million figure that was a worst-case scenario for if the U.S. did nothing. Did no mitigation. So, Trump is contrasting 100,000 deaths saying he did a good job because he didn't do nothing at all. And number four, the mitigation that was undertaken was significantly undertaken by governors, local leaders, businesses, and individual citizens, not the president himself.

LEMON: Pat on the back for doing the right thing. Interesting. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Make sure you watch Anderson Cooper and Dr. Sanjay Gupta host a town hall with science writer David Quammen and why he says that this virus like coronavirus will keep happening. Viruses like coronavirus will keep happening. Coronavirus: Facts and Fears -- facts and Fears -- Facts and Fears -- excuse me -- live tomorrow night at 8 p.m. with Anderson and Dr. Gupta.

More new developments on the coronavirus as the death toll passes 100,000 tonight. Researchers reporting a new and worrying condition in African-American victims. That as mask wearing is turning into a partisan political issue.

[23:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: OK. So, I want to go now to CNN's Sara Sidner. She is live for us in Minneapolis where outrage is spreading over the death of George Floyd. And protesters are out on the streets. She joins us now. Sara, these clashes are continuing. Are they escalating between police and protesters tonight over this death? SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Two things are happening.

One, there are firefighters that are out trying to put out a fire at the AutoZone which is really taken hold of the entire building now which is right across the street from the third precinct Minneapolis Police Department.

So, that's happening in one area. And then there's a huge target parking lot that has a Target and a Cub that sells, you know, all sorts of things that Target sells and all sorts of things you would want to get at a grocery store Cub.

I am now walking towards the Target. Looking behind me is billowing smoke and in front of me, I don't know if you can hear that sort of beeping noise. But that is the alarm at Target. If you look in, it looks like a smoky destruction. There is a very large amount of smoke, and people have basically taken as many things out.

We're watching people fill their vehicles with items from a Target that has windows all smashed in. There are dozens of people sort of going inside. But there's also people going inside the Cub and taking out groceries, carts full of groceries.

So, you have got two separate things going on here at the same time that people are still out protesting the police. The police are still out barricaded, basically in their certain precinct. And then you have folks who have decided that they're going to go into the Target and the Cub and just loot the place. And we're watching it happen right now.

LEMON: All right. Sara, I want you to stand by because I want to continue -- are we going to continue on with Sara here?

SIDNER: Yes.

LEMON: Yes. OK.

SIDNER: I'm here -- that is fireworks.

SIDNER: OK. Yes. Sara, tell us what you're hearing -- sorry -- and seeing. Sorry, pardon me.

SIDNER: So, fireworks are being fired off. We've been watching this all day. They're being fired off in the parking lot here outside the Cub in Minneapolis.

And again, if you were standing in the middle of this huge, and it is huge parking lot, there are hundreds of people. It's like the Fourth of July out here and I'm not kidding. These fireworks are almost on the par with the professional fireworks.

Those same kinds of fireworks were being shot towards the police department and over some of the buildings including the AutoZone. So, there's a lot of wonder as to whether or not that fire was started over something like that or it was started some other way.

So, you're hearing a lot of loud noises. At first it was blasting from police. Now we're hearing more of the fireworks from protesters who are lighting them off in the Target parking lot. But it is quite a scene here. We are seeing loads of cars just a line, like of parking lot but a line of people all pulling up to the front of the store, the Target, and just loading as many things as they can into their cars.

Earlier today, Don, we should mention this, there were folks here who had stood in front of the police department and they had begged people. These are African-American leaders who have been in this community for a very long time. And they said look, you know, we know you're angry and we are angry watching what has happened to this 46- year-old father. They were so emotional about it.

But they begged people not to do this, not to turn this into something else, to protest, to do things as legally as possible to show their anger, but to do it in a constructive way.

There was resistance to that among some folks here. Young people particularly said, look, you can fix broken windows. You can fix, you know, broken, you know, broken down cars and a broken police department when it comes to the facade, but you can't bring back a life.

And so, there was this competing thought process out here where on the one hand people are like don't do this, don't turn this because people are just going to say that, you know, look at them, look at them out there doing this. This has nothing to do with the pain of what happened to this black man in America.

[23:24:57]

And all of the protesting and the begging for there to be changed sort of turned on its head when people starts seeing people looting in stores. But there are other people that feel differently. They feel like they just want to break things down because they're so, so incredibly angry about what has happened now and what has happened in the past. And I think everyone has to keep that in mind.

But in the past, there have been several incidents in this state and in this area that have people already feeling a certain kind of way towards police. One woman telling us, she doesn't even let her children, she tells them not to trust the police.

But on the other hand, you've got a swift movement from the police department in this particular case, firing four officers within 48 hours of what happened, of the death of someone they were calling a suspect which is highly unusual.

But the reaction right now is big. It is intense. It is still intense. And you have sort of two different groups. Some folks that are in the stores taking out things like beer and wine from the spirits store, taking out items from Targets, Cubs. And you have others that are still standing in the face of police and with their hands up.

LEMON: Well, Sara, I want you to stand by because we want to get back to this. But I want to -- I have some other guests that I want to get to. And we're going to leave these pictures up. But I just want to say as I said earlier, I can -- leave the pictures

up. I can understand the anger and that people are feel -- people feeling like they are occupied in a free country. We're going to leave those pictures up. I think it's important to show those pictures up.

But I can understand the anger but I can't understand the action. OK? We don't want further lives lost here. No one wants further lives lost here. Protesting is one thing. Looting and pillaging that's another thing. And I understand that you're angry. I understand that many people feel that they're occupied in their own communities.

But looting and burning and possibly putting other people in harm's way, injuring other people and maybe even death, that is not the way to go. And that is not -- I don't understand those actions. Again, I understand the anger, not the actions.

So, as we look at this, as we -- Sara is gathering more information and more reporting, this is what's happening in the country tonight. We have over 100,000 people who have died from the coronavirus, and now we have this situation happening -- happening in Minneapolis where four police officers have been fired now after the death of George Floyd.

And today the mayor of Minneapolis, Jacob Frey, is calling for charges against the officers who pinned Floyd. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR JACOB FREY, MINNEAPOLIS: Turn a blind eye. It is on us as leaders to see this for what it is and call it what it is. George Floyd deserves justice. The officer who had his knee on the neck of George Floyd should be charged, and I'm calling on Hennepin County Attorney to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, we are learning more about this allege counterfeiting at a local convenience store. Cub Foods that got police involve tonight. The owner said that they are being targeted with death threats.

So, I'm joined now by Mahmoud Abumayyaleh who goes by Mike. He owns Cub Foods with his three brothers. And Jamar Nelson who runs their media relations. I'm so glad that you guys are here. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

So, Mike, as we saw what was happening there, these pictures of what's going on in this area, it's a terrible scene to watch. This whole tragic incident began after a staff member confronted George Floyd when he tried to use a counterfeit $20 bill. Can you give us more details about what happened?

MAHMOUD ABUMAYYALEH, CO-OWNER, CUB FOODS: After one of our staff identified the $20 bill was fake, Floyd was actually out of the establishment and outside. My staff called the police doing a practice protocol, and when the police arrived Floyd was still outside. And that's when they approached him. LEMON: So, and I want to make sure we get all of this correct. A

family member later witnessed a police officer kneeling on Floyd's neck, tried to intervene. Tell us about what he saw.

ABUMAYYALEH: He approached one of the officers, asking him to take his knee off his neck because he cannot breathe. He pushed him over the curve and pushed him again, past the curve as it shows on the video.

LEMON: So, Mike, new video is out today that appears to show Floyd didn't resist, at least the video that we have seen. We're awaiting now the body cam video. It has been released. CNN is reviewing it now.

But from the video that we saw, this surveillance video, didn't resist arrest as the police described.

[23:30:00]

You say that you have been asked by investigators not to release your surveillance video publicly. But have you been able to look at the surveillance video?

ABUMAYYALEH: I did view it on Tuesday after the -- after -- after the death of Floyd.

LEMON: And?

ABUMAYYALEH: And what I seen was devastating. It was very heartbreaking. And our condolences go to the family and friends of George Floyd.

LEMON: Did you see resistance?

ABUMAYYALEH: No.

LEMON: On the video tape that you have, your surveillance video, you see no resistance from George Floyd?

ABUMAYYALEH: Our camera angle shows exactly what was recorded as the outside bystander. What I seen was exactly what you're seeing.

LEMON: You say there has been a backlash and threats against your family and the store. What do you want -- what do you want to say to people who are angry right now and they are lashing out? As I said, I understand the anger. I don't understand the actions of looting and destroying property. What do you want to say to people who are lashing out?

ABUMAYYALEH: Although we have a village of supporters behind us, people that have known us for the 31 years that we've been there for, there are a small percentage of people that are angry and want answers, and we understand that.

Let's take that anger towards the people that took the action against the individual that was -- and let's take that anger and use it towards bridging and fixing the problem in our system that is causing minorities in this country to get killed and now nothing is being done about it and justice is not being served.

LEMON: Jamar, I want to bring you in. The store has been a part of the community now, as Mike said, for 31 years. These protests are very heated tonight. Are you worried that this anger could boil over and cause more injuries and death?

JAMAR NELSON, MEDIA RELATIONS, CUP FOODS: Ah, well, absolutely. But, again, I think that what we have to focus on is the fact that these officers are still at home --

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

NELSON: -- and not treated as I would be treated if I had killed someone, arrested. Good thing (INAUDIBLE) be arrested. There should be a bail for them. And that didn't happen. Now, the expeditious firing of them, I respect and I commend our chief. That took a lot of gumption because the police chief -- excuse me, the police union, Bob Kroll is a pit bull. He will fight for them to get their jobs back.

Our focus has to be on the fact that these individuals have to be arrested for murder. This was execution of Mr. Floyd. And the call may have emanated from our establishment that ultimately led to the police being called. But the focus, again, has to be on the fact that these cops when they came out, they went above and beyond what they should have done.

Normally, when there's a counterfeit bill or something that comes in, a document that comes into the establishment, the police is called and the police come in, take the bill, take the document, write a citation and move around. For some reason, that didn't happen in this case. And so for that, we are simply sorry.

But the fact is these police officers went above and beyond what they should have done and it led to his death. And that's what we need to be focused on.

LEMON: Jamar, thank you. Mike, thank you. All of you, be safe. And again, we appreciate you joining us here on CNN. Thanks so much. As the coronavirus death toll passes 100,000 tonight, researchers are reporting a new and worrying condition in African-American victims. More details, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Tonight, research is reporting that autopsies on the bodies of some African-American COVID-19 victims show that their lungs were clogged with blood clots.

I want to bring in now Dr. Richard Vander Heide, head of pathology at LSU Health New Orleans School of Medicine, where the research is being done. Doctor, thank you so much. I've been thinking about you a lot in my home state where my mom is on and my entire family is on quarantine. So, keep them safe down there. So, thank you for joining us.

Listen, you and other pathologists performed autopsies on 10 African- Americans who died from COVID-19 in New Orleans. What did you find?

RICHARD VANDER HEIDE, PROFESSOR, LSU HEALTH: Well, good evening, Don. Thanks for having me. The paper that we published today was based on 10. But since then, we've done 26 autopsies. What we've found consistently in all 26 is that the lungs are filled with blood clots and hemorrhages as well as the inflammation from the virus. So, this is something very unique and different from other viral illnesses that we've seen. So, we're intrigued by this.

And I will also add that out of the 26 autopsies that we've done, 22 have been an African-Americans. So, the African-American population seems disproportionately affected by this terrible disease.

LEMON: All of the patients had underlying conditions, including high blood pressure, diabetes and obesity, known risk factors for COVID-19. But is that connected to this blood clotting?

VANDER HEIDE: Well, it's what we're trying to figure out. It's a process. But much of the people that brought, the patients that we've done on the autopsies on are certainly those with the underlying comorbidities: hypertension, diabetes, chronic kidney disease. But what's very interesting is the obesity factor.

[23:39:58]

And of the cases that we've done, we've done five, they were patients that were in their 40s. Whereas most people report deaths in COVID in people 70s and over, these are people in their 40 age group. In five, four of them were African-Americans. And of those four -- all four of them were very obese. So, we're concerned if there's a link perhaps between obesity and the severity of COVID disease in African- Americans.

LEMON: Do these findings help explain why African-Americans are in general suffering more from COVID-19 in the U.S., as well as countries like the U.K., which would be black folks there? But -- I mean, does this explain any of that?

VANDER HEIDE: Well, doesn't necessarily explain directly. But I think it is possible that African-Americans have a genetic predisposition to overreaction to the inflammation. They might have a different reaction to the -- a different racial ethnic group. Those are all possibilities, but we don't know at this point.

Certainly, what we do know is that, you know, despite everybody's proportion of racial and ethnic groups, the African-American population tends to be more severely affected. So, the --

LEMON: Yeah. We did studies that showed also that people in the U.K. and other countries as well who are not Americans or African-American, but black people in general for some reason were more affected by COVID-19. We'll continue to research. We'll continue to check back. Thank you for bringing your information to CNN. We really appreciate it. Thanks so much. Be safe down there in Louisiana.

Next, as restaurants and businesses reopen, what needs to be done to keep Americans safe in public, indoor spaces? I'm going to ask an expert, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: With all 50 states in the process of reopening, Americans are being encouraged to keep social distancing. But a group of scientists is warning tonight that six feet of distance may not be enough to prevent the spread of the virus.

There is a lot to discuss now with Joe Allen, a Harvard assistant professor of exposure assessment science. He is the author of "Healthy Buildings." Joe, it is good to see you. Thank you so much.

JOE ALLEN, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF EXPOSURE ASSESSMENT SCIENCE, HARVARD: Thanks for having me back, Don.

LEMON: So, there's so much attention on coronavirus being spread through large droplets from coughing or sneezing. But you say it would be a mistake to ignore the possibility of airborne transmission. We've talked about that before. But now, there's even more evidence of it, right? Explain what that means and why folks should pay attention to that.

ALLEN: Yeah. Look, I really don't understand the reluctance on the part of CDC or WHO to recognize that airborne transmission is happening. There are three modes of transmission: large droplet, fomite or contaminated surfaces, and airborne.

I've been on record since early February saying that airborne transmission is happening. There are tell-tale signs that this is happening. People in my field have been saying it. I put out an op-ed yesterday talking about the risk of airborne transmission.

There is a new paper in science today talking about airborne transmission. Our community is trying to raise our voices, collective voices here, so that we can actually put in some of these control strategies to address airborne transmission.

Look, I'll give you an example from the infamous choir practice and how we know this is happening and how we knew it early on. I've done forensic investigations of sick buildings for over a decade. There were these tell-tale signs from that outbreak. Sixty people, 52 people got sick, two died.

They did the process of elimination and you could say, well, was it fomites? Were they touching the same chairs? That is unlikely to get 50 people sick. What about large droplet? Well, maybe that could happen and it would be the people around the people singing. You emit a lot of aerosols when you sing. Really, airborne best explains such a massive outbreak. And what caught my eye from having done these investigations was this little fact that was hidden in the investigation. The choir practice happened between 6:30 and 9:00 p.m. What happens in buildings at that hour? The ventilation system is shut down.

So, we see this all the time in buildings. The signs have all been there. Every piece of scientific evidence since February has supported this conclusion yet CDC and WHO failed to recognize this.

LEMON: Yeah. So, this is new tonight, a group of experts writing in the journal science who say that there's increasing evidence that six feet of distance the WHO is recommending isn't enough under many indoor conditions.

They say aerosols can remain airborne for hours, right, especially when you're talking about singing, and you're pushing those things out, that they can accumulate over time and follow airflows over distances further than six feet.

What should people at home take from this? It seems to be something. Wear a mask, don't wear -- I mean, don't wear a mask, wear a mask. Oh, it's not airborne, it is airborne. Six feet, no further than six feet. What should people think?

ALLEN: Yeah. I don't want to confuse that message. Six feet should be the minimum. But really, that's based on aerosol large droplets that settle out. But the reality is, if we were sitting here talking face to face and I was coughing or even just singing to you, Don, or talking, I'm going to release a continuum of particles, some large ones and some that are small enough to stay -- aerosols that stay aloft for many hours.

And this is what we're talking about that's new. So, still the distance and proximity is important. You'll have a bigger dose if you're close to me even from these aerosols than if you were at the back or the far side of the room. What this means, though, you know, we want to think about solutions here. And this really isn't rocket science, the solutions we put in place here.

[23:50:02]

ALLEN: We want to bring in more fresh outdoor air to dilute the airborne contaminants. And anything that's re-circulated in a building or your home or office or school, needs to run through a high efficiency filter. So, actually, the controls are quite simple, but the message just isn't reaching the public.

LEMON: Got it.

ALLEN: And we have heard this six foot, which is good for large droplets, but we have to be aware that airborne transmission is happening, too.

LEMON: Joe Allen, thank you. Appreciate it.

ALLEN: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

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[23:55:00]

LEMON: Make sure you join CNN Sunday as families share personal stories about the loved ones they lost, and faith leaders offer words of comfort and prayer. CNN's Jake Tapper hosts "We Remember: A National Memorial Honoring Victims of COVID-1919." That's Sunday and it starts at noon.

And tomorrow night, Anderson Cooper, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host a town hall with science writer David Quammen, why he says viruses like coronavirus will keep happening. "Coronavirus: Facts and Fears," live, tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Make sure you watch, 8:00.

Thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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