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Don Lemon Tonight
National Guard Called in to Assist Minneapolis Police; President Trump Acknowledge COVID Victims; Protests Erupt in Minneapolis Over George Floyd's Death While in Police Custody. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired May 28, 2020 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We are really aren't seeing -- this is sort of -- I have been to a lot of protests around the country and the world, and I have never seen fewer police out at a protest that has gone this way.
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes. No, exactly. I mean, I think there are two key things to realize here at the scene. The first is that, the police have made the decision they're not going to enforce the law here in this area. We've seen no police officers.
Sara and I have been walking around. There have been buildings on fire. There have been looting. People behind us right now are attempting to break into the store behind us. Yet there is no police enforcement. I think they have made that judgment call that their mere presence right now is going to escalate this. Of course, if you are a business or you live in this area, that concerns you because you don't see that police presence.
The second thing I want to point out, and I think this is so important we talk about this. Is that although we're in this area of bed loom here. I mean, people are breaking into things, this doesn't seem to represent the protestors that we saw closer to the police station who seem to be purposefully upset at what occurred with the death of Mr. Floyd.
If you think about it, and I'm going to pull this down for a second, the folks here aren't mentioning his name. They're not talking about it. They're trying to break in to these areas.
This is a lot different than what we saw over by the police station where people had signs, they were trying to get their point across that they are unhappy with what's happened here.
And if you think about it, Sara, I mean, we've covered these over and over again. The same thing seems to happen. It occurs and then people move on to the next one. It's clear here that these people don't want to move on.
And then lastly, it's also important to point out for viewers that the protestors that out here are just one voice that we're hearing. There are also members of the community here telling them to please stop breaking into things. That that's not helping the cause. Just a chaotic situation with so many different parties here right now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: All right. I want you two to standby. We're going to get back to you on the ground there. Sara Sidner and Josh Campbell on the ground for us in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Don't go far.
This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.
We are following two major stories tonight. Two crisis -- crises killing Americans. COVID-19 and racism '20. And our breaking news tonight, protest spreading over the death of George Floyd, an unmanned black man at the hands of police officers.
The mayor of Minneapolis has declared a local emergency. And Minnesota's governor has activated the National Guard. Residents are demanding the four officers involved in Floyd's death be arrested and charged. Prosecutors pleading for patience while they investigate the case that have spark anger across this nation.
That as the death toll in the United States from coronavirus now topping 101,000. And the number of confirmed cases now more than 1.7 million. T
The CDC releasing a forecast today projecting 123,000 coronavirus deaths by June 20th. A little more than three weeks from now.
The president finally acknowledging that the death toll has surged past 100,000. Tweeting his sympathy to the families of the victims.
Let's get right to Minneapolis, back to Minneapolis, I should say, and CNN's Sara Sidner and Josh Campbell. Also, Miguel Marquez who is in neighboring Saint Paul. New in tonight we have gotten the transcript of the 911 call that led to this incident. We're going to go through it with Josh.
But let me just get to Miguel to see what's happening because we haven't checked in with him. Miguel, what are you seeing on the ground in Saint Paul?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you probably can't see with a camera, but there's two more fires have started down university towards the state capitol down there. I don't know if you can see that. But I want to show you what's happening here where protestors have been challenging police at this -- at this fire.
Several businesses including a Napa auto parts are on fire up here. A large group of protestors just came up. It looked like they had been marching perhaps downtown. And they came up. Very young protesters as well.
They have now moved towards police not realizing just how liberal they're being use they are with the use of mace, tear gas, pepper balls, and flash bang grenades. So, I'm guessing that police are shortly going to try to disperse this crowd.
This is what we've seen the entire day with crowds that are growing and surging towards the police up here. And then when they deploy some of those non-lethal types of weapons, then the crowd then shrinks back.
And it's really gotten much, much bigger in the last few minutes. It's little unclear what police do -- I want to stop over here. Because this is an area, there's a large number of protestors here. You can see them shooting pepper balls here at those individuals.
Take a step back a second. We have another fire truck coming through here. It's not clear what direction they are headed. They're probably headed down -- so this -- I can see two, it appears to be two different fires about two blocks away towards the state capitol from where we are. And I assume where is that fire truck is headed right now.
[23:04:57]
The protestors on this other side of the street they have really been challenging the police. And this is where most of the activity has been today. These young protestors who have just showed up, I'm afraid there may be an effort by police to move them back using non-lethal means here very shortly. Don?
LEMON: Miguel, the cities that are fairly close in proximity really close in proximity. But a police -- the police in Saint Paul seem to be taking a different tactic than the police in Minneapolis. The police in Minneapolis is, according to our folks who are on the scene, they appear to just have left the scene in many parts. These police officers in Saint Paul are very active still moving protestors back. Still keeping control.
MARQUEZ: Yes, they are definitely trying to keep this from getting any bigger and moving into any larger conflict. The third precinct something is either blowing up or being shot right now. You can see it right over here in the shooting. These are some of the flash bangs that they are using now. And pepper balls that they are shooting at protestors who were down the street.
They are being very active in trying to control these crowds and keep them from any further looting. That said, there are shops up and down the street here that the windows are broken up. People are going in and out. And basically, doing what they want however they want.
And it's unclear -- what's going on over there. It's unclear exactly how long police are going to stand off with these individuals. It looked like they may have been pulling out at one point. But now they've redoubled their efforts and are bringing more people in, Don.
LEMON: Do police seem to -- you said it looks like they were backing off. I'm wondering -- we want -- I want to get some clarification as to what's happening in Minneapolis. Are these -- are they overwhelmed? Are they out manned, so to speak?
MARQUEZ: They are -- well, the crowd has grown. There are more protestors here than police. At least on this side of the barricade. I don't know what it looks like on the other side. But the crowd has not diminished at all. If anything, it has grown. The police have brought in reinforcements. They do have pepper balls
and the flash bang grenades and mace or tear gas that they have been using against the crowd which does disperse it for a while. But it does come back and come back angrier every time.
There are chants of George Floyd's name. But you know, hearing from George Floyd's family today and his friends and people who knew him, this gentle giant as they call him. He, George Floyd, would not be happy with what he's seeing tonight in Minneapolis and here at Saint Paul.
LEMON: Yes. And as I spoke to the vice president of the city council in Minneapolis, she told me in the break one thing that she wanted to get in and did not is that she wanted these protestors especially the ones who were doing the looting and raiding to go home and stop destroying the community.
I want you to standby. I want you to be safe, Miguel Marquez and -- let's look at the picture now. A protestor taunting a police officer. Police officers restraining themselves. There you go.
MARQUEZ: Now they're using tear gas to get them out. So, they are spraying pepper -- probably pepper spray there. And now they're shooting canisters -- man. They're shooting canisters of tear gas down the street here to disperse the crowd. Which is what I expected would happen. They've all run down that way, and they've run down this way.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Did you get a whiff of tear gas is that why you said, man?
MARQUEZ: Well, we've been -- we've been covered in tear gas all day. But that crowd ran and it wasn't clear how far those canisters were going to go over. The last thing I wanted to get beaned by a tear gas canister as they're shooting, trying to shoot down the street. Don?
LEMON: So, Miguel, is this -- so what you have been seeing today is this the height of it or did you see more explosive action between or confrontations between the police?
MARQUEZ: It has been like this -- it has been like this all afternoon where the crowd will move up toward the police. They will taunt the police. The police will use tear gas, use other means to move them back.
There was a couple of times that they tried to go after somebody but there were no arrests made that I saw that the police then sort of backed off. They brought more police in, in riot gear in the after -- late in the afternoon. And that's when they really started to pull push everybody back off of this corner.
And now you have police sort of, I think just trying to keep the crowds back and keep them from forming. But every time that they push them back, they reform in about the same numbers, if not bigger numbers. The numbers right now have certainly grown since earlier this afternoon when we got here, Don. [23:10:04]
LEMON: And Miguel, the people you are -- we are seeing driving in cars, are those police officers or are those regular pedestrian citizens that we saw some cars leading joining the other way?
MARQUEZ: Some are police officers. Some are police officers. You can see police officers getting in a truck now. They maybe going to a different area. There are more fires burning down the way. So, they may be going down there.
But there are a lot of cars. People who just pull up to the stop sign and are completely shocked and stunned and have no idea what to do because they didn't mean to get into the middle of something like this. And they're not quite sure what to do. Police are now directing them to go down the other road. But, yes,
there's a lot of confusion about people who find themselves in this situation driving their car down here.
I'm curious what these police in the back of this pickup truck here are going to be doing in a few minutes. They just loaded in there. They must -- they are clearly going to some other location possibly down the street. Don?
LEMON: You're listening to Miguel Marquez who is in Saint Paul. Ten- ten p.m. Eastern -- excuse me -- 11.10 p.m. Eastern, 10.10 Central Time in Saint Paul, Minnesota.
I'm Don Lemon. And you are watching this breaking news. It is unfolding live right here on CNN in Saint Paul, also in Minneapolis, the twin cities.
Miguel Marquez said he has been watching this go down really all afternoon. Confrontations between police and protestors. A back and forth, so to speak. Protestors move forward and then police officers move forward and then the protestors after retreat either they are shot with pepper spray into the crowd or these rubber bullets that you have been seeing or flash bangs, rather.
And Miguel Marquez again on the scene. Miguel, have you figured out where these police officers are going? There are police officers that gathered in the back of a pickup truck just moments ago.
MARQUEZ: Yes, they racing down -- a very large number of police now just loaded up and they are headed down the street. I'm guessing they are headed down to this other fire down here which we can try to check out but it's several blocks from where we are right now.
This will really complicated things for police in Saint Paul because this what they wanted to avoid. There was a car fire earlier today and they jumped on it very quickly and got it out. They don't want to have multiple places burning. There are reports of a gas station burning not too far from where we are as well.
But if they have another fire two blocks away, that is going to thin out the number of police and the firefighters that they have for this area and really, really complicate their job tonight. Don?
LEMON: All right. Miguel, I want you to standby. Don't go far. And the Ely, the director if you're listening, let's look at some pictures. Do we have any Minneapolis pictures? These are pictures you're looking at in your screen now in Saint Paul, Minnesota.
This is Minneapolis. Minneapolis is burning, really on fire. That from the pictures that we were seeing moments ago. Again, this is all playing out live here on CNN.
These are our affiliate pictures of -- the affiliates are controlling these so we don't have controls. So, whatever they are putting up I'm speaking to the pictures that our affiliate WCCO is showing.
It appears to be people who are on the interstate or on a large highway in protest. And then there are cars following them. Protest -- protesters carrying signs there in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And again, then you have Saint Paul, Minnesota, the twin city of Minneapolis where there are protests going on there.
I think it is time to check in with our White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins as we have been talking about these two crises that are killing Americans, racism and coronavirus. I want to get the reaction from the White House now and from the administration. Kaitlan Collins, what can you tell us?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, speaking of what's happening in Minneapolis tonight and what we were seeing there, we do know the president was briefed on this today. He was meeting with the attorney general and the deputy FBI director earlier today. They spoke about this.
Later the president talked about this. He said he watched this video of that police officer kneeling on George Floyd's neck. He called it disturbing, he talked about the effect that it had on him. But the question is, you know, what is going to happen going forward.
He said that he believes justice will be served. So, the press secretary also said that. It's not clear exactly what that means there. They didn't really say what that is going to look like. And they also declined to say if they believe that charges should be brought against these officers. So not a lot of details on that. Though we do know he has been getting briefings on this.
LEMON: Kaitlan, listen, it took -- let's talk about the coronavirus. It took the president really a long time to acknowledge this grim milestone that we reached yesterday which is over, which is 100,000. Now it is over 100,000 people who have died. Americans who have died from the coronavirus.
[23:15:01]
But if you look at the president's Twitter feed, which is where he often speaks out. You see grievances. He wants to skip over this grim avoidable milestone. I think he finally mentioned it sometime today. COLLINS: Yes, he did. And that was at least over 12 hours since that
milestone had passed last night. And the president had been incredibly active on Twitter talking about other things, going after Twitter itself. Talking about the Russia investigation. Really everything under the sun but he had not mentioned that.
And we should note that reporters had been inquiring with the White House this morning, you know, was the president going to do anything to mark this grim milestone that the United States had reached. They pointed to the fact that he lowered the flags to half-staff over the weekend in honor of those who lost their lives to coronavirus.
But, Don, you know, this is a number obsessed president. And he once said did not think the death toll in the United States would reach 100,000. And now it's surpassed that and we're not in the clear yet if you listen to the health experts.
And he really has not remarked on the death toll very much. He did address it on Twitter today and said he sends his sympathy to those who have lost their lives, to those who have lost family members to this. But that really was really the only acknowledgment we got from the president. No other commemoration or anything like that marking this death toll.
LEMON: Our White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins on top of the stories or these stories for us. Thank you, Kaitlan. We appreciate it.
As protests spread tonight over the death of George Floyd in police custody, we're going to break down exactly what the videos show. The videos. Plural. What they show and whether they match what police say.
[23:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We want to get back now to our breaking news.
Sara Sidner is in Minneapolis, Minnesota, along with Josh Campbell. And new in tonight we've gotten these transcripts with the 911 call. And we are going to go over all of that. But first, I want to get to you guys. I understand there's something new that's happening, Sara, at the police station. What do you know?
SIDNER: Yes. So, I'm going to let you see the pictures for yourself. This is the third precinct here. These are fires burning to the left of it at the wine and liquor store on your left. But back in the back of the precinct you are hearing people throwing things against the walls against the glass, and against anything they can.
And now the fire alarm you'll see it flashing inside of the third precinct. Behind the third precinct just behind it is a fire that is billowing and has been going for a few minutes now really strongly. But you hear people cheering every time they get through one of the windows there with whatever it is they're throwing.
It sounds like they're throwing. You can see pieces of concrete. There's someone climbing up the wall right now of the back of the third precinct. Kicking the window in. Trying to climb up the wall. People are trying to get in the building. We're listening to people say that they are trying to get into the building.
There is now a person who -- excuse me, sir. There is now a person who is going and trying to get physically into the third precinct there at the bottom of the precinct. Now at the very top of the precinct on the other side there were police officers who were inside of that.
But, Sykes (ph), I'm going to have you move the camera to the left and just show the fire. The fires are getting closer and closer and closer to the third precinct. That is the Wine and Spirits store the Minnehaha Wine and Spirit here that is on fire on the other side.
But you're also seeing now smoke billowing from inside of the third precinct. You see that white smoke billowing outside of that. And you also see that fire alarm going off. Now we know that there were officers in there not too long ago. So, we're not sure of the status of how many officers are still inside or if they have a evacuated.
But we do know that just earlier there were officers standing on top of that roof. About five or six of them who were throwing down all matter of things to try to separate the protestors. But now you are seeing actually seeing smoke that is coming out of the third precinct. I'm going to have you back up a bit there, Sykes (Ph) so we can give people a bigger wider --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Sara, where are the police?
SIDNER: So again, you see the fire -- we don't know. We are not seeing police out here right now. We have been seeing them standing on the top of the third precinct. That's where they have been throwing things down trying to keep people from breaching.
But now there are no police. There is no police presence. And Josh talked about that earlier. The police presence has gone to zero at this point here outside of the third precinct. How unusual is this? Because now fire has started.
Let, Sykes (Ph), the fire has started at the third precinct. We're watching it be set right now. We're watching it go up in flames right now.
(CROWD CHEERING)
SIDNER: I just wanted you to hear the sound of people cheering as the third precinct appears to be on fire at this time. Excuse me. The third precinct seems to be on fire at this time. With people who are now starting to go closer and closer to that precinct --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Sara, standby --
SIDNER: We do not know at this time where the police are.
LEMON: -- one second. I just want to -- I just want to from my vantage point. You can see the pictures up on your screen now of the third precinct which is on fire.
Director, did you tell me it's on -- Elliot, the one on the left. It's on the right? OK. It is the fire that you see on the right. And again, that is the third precinct. And what you hear are people who are cheering in this crowd as this police precinct goes up in flames.
The picture on the right now the ground picture that you're seeing, that's on the ground, the one on the left is a picture of the aerial shot. And so, as Sara Sidner had been reporting all evening here on CNN, they had tried to breech the perimeter earlier of third precinct. A fence they erected recently to try to keep protestors and rioters out, that appears to have all been for naught.
[23:25:06]
Because now this police precinct appears to be on fire. Well, it is on fire. You can see it in the middle of your screen there.
The concern is with all of this, where are the police officers? Who is inside of that building? Personnel, staff, people who maybe in lock up or what have you. We would certainly hope that they are safe and out of that building.
But these actions should not be happening. OK? Again, I understand the anger, not the actions. This shouldn't be happening. A police precinct should not be going up in flames, up in smoke. Businesses should not be as well. People shouldn't be cheering.
But here we are. This is what is happening. This is what is playing out live for you on your screen, America. On live television on CNN. A community that is fed up. We're hearing I'm not sure if it's gunshots if it's flash bang or fireworks or what have you.
Let's get back now to the scene to my (Inaudible) who are on the scene. You can see the sign there that says Minneapolis police. OK? So, you know, it is a police department.
Sara Sidner, talk to me, what are we hearing there?
SIDNER: Yes. Yes. OK. So those are absolutely not gunshots. Those are fireworks being fired off by the protestors. We are watching them being fired off directly in front of me. All of those sparkling lights that you see overhead, if you can see that, that is from fireworks.
But we are definitely now seeing a fully -- fully on fire third precinct here. That is clearly what's happening there. There have been boards that have been put up outside of the third precinct. And those boards are on fire.
But it looks like the fire has gotten even bigger at this point in time. And you can see protestors so close to the fire that they are getting hit with sparks from the fire coming off of that building. So that is what's going on right now. It is official that the building is on fire. The precinct third is on fire. We do not know where the police are.
We see the Minnehaha Liquors that is on fire. On the other side of the street we see a fire behind the precinct. We also see protestors throwing fireworks at the precinct and the fire alarm is going on inside of the precinct.
This is a scene that is completely changed from earlier today when things were peaceful, Don. People cheering and more fireworks going off as literally the police precinct is burning. Don?
LEMON: Josh Campbell, I want to ask you, because you are our law enforcement expert here. How will police and the fire department respond in this -- how do they respond in a situation like this?
CAMPBELL: Yes, Don. I'm going to take this mask off a second so you can hear me.
The police here have made a calculated decision that they're not going to enforce what we're seeing behind us. There's fire that's being set to the police department. As you can hear that's going on around us. There are fireworks going off. People climbing on the side of the building.
They've made the decision that they are not going to stop people from doing that. I think the reason is they know that any type of police presence here is going to be met with aggression and agitation by this crowd that is clearly unhappy.
I can tell you we were just three blocks away at a financial institution that was on fire. The fire department was there. They were keeping a distance. They were not moving in to fight this fire. Again, not wanting to put themselves in jeopardy or in danger with this crowd that's clearly agitated.
This is -- this is beyond what we saw there earlier. We have a fire burning; you have people chiming on the building. Shooting what looks like fire -- fireworks and rockets at the building. We looked inside the windows; you don't see police officers there.
So, I think what would likely happen here is the majority of officers who were at this location have probably left for their own safety. There might be a team that's still left mind. We saw people on the roof earlier.
But I think, Don, what we're going to see is they're going to let this building burn. You're not going to see officers coming in. They know that the decision right now is you lose a building or you lose lives potentially. That's the calculation that they're making right now.
LEMON: So, they're not going to try to control this fire? They're Just let this burn, Josh. Is that -- is that what you believe the calculation is?
CAMPBELL: That's what -- yes. Yes, Don. We've seen no indication that officers or fire department -- I'm scanning the crowd here because there's a lot going on. We've seen no indication that they are trying to either fight the fire or enforce the criminal activity going behind.
This is looting. People are crashing through the windows here against, you know, they've set the building on fire. I think they are making that calculation that they would rather lose a building than try to incite or inflame the situation even more that it has.
What happens after that we don't know. Whether they just let the building go and assume the crowd will disperse once they get tired after a number of hours. But so far, we haven't seen police officers staging. There been no flashing lights. There was one helicopter overheard. It looks like it's now moved away.
[23:29:59]
I think they are just letting the situation play out right now, Don. Making that calculation that that's probably the best interest of the community.
LEMON: And speaking of the calculation, why would one -- standby one second, Sara.
(CROSSTALK)
SIDNER: Listen to this. There is no siren at all. So there's no fire department coming. Last night, three or four showed up when the AutoZone was on fire. This is definitely as Josh said a calculated decision. Not a single fire truck is here.
LEMON: Right on. Josh, and that leads into my next question, if you guys can answer this. It appears that the police department, they must be outmanned in order for it to get to this point. I know that they had asked, at least in St. Paul, for the National Guard to come and help. So, apparently, the department is not big enough to handle this or not equipped to handle these sorts of demonstrations? Is that what we are seeing playing out here, Josh?
CAMPBELL: Yeah, Don. If you think about what a police precinct is, this isn't where the police officers hang out all day, this is certainly the headquarters for this area. But police officers are dispersed. They are out patrolling the community. So you don't typically have a large presence of people inside the facility like this to begin with.
If you look at the crowd, there are hundreds and hundreds of people here. Cars are lined up. It looks like still trying to get to this location. it is clearly outmanned. I do not know if they had an influx of officers throughout the city, that they will be able to control this crowd right now, in any successful way. There is too much going on here right now.
But again, you go back to what is actually inflaming the situation, it is people who are angry with the actions of the police. So if you have that infusion of officers here right now, trying to push these people back, trying to conduct duress, I think they know that this would turn dangerous and deadly very quickly, not only for the officers but also obviously for the people that are here in the community.
This is one of those situations that are not easy to control. If it were easy, this would be resolved already right now. But I assume that the police chief right now, the police officials, are making that determination. They are not bringing in the crowd control, and they are not bringing in the riot police.
They are going to, you know, lose a piece of property here, it looks like, as the fire continues to move out, but they are not wanting to obviously inflame the situation even more, not that they could, Don, even if they had enough officers, because Sara and I, as we stand here, just surrounded by hundreds and hundreds of people.
LEMON: Yes. Again, Sara, you're saying that last night you heard sirens, at least a couple of times. You're hearing nothing now, which is an indication to you, both of you, that there are no officers around, at least in this particular location.
SIDNER: Certainly sounds like that. To put the fires out -- the fire department is not out here at the precinct. They were actually earlier today and you saw this, Don. They were down the road at the fire that started at what appears to be a pawnshop. But they are not here at the precinct. There are no sirens. There is no sense that there is any authority out here trying to control the situation at this point.
LEMON: Mm-hmm. Josh and Sara, you said that you saw hundreds of people who are gathering. How do the crowds -- do the crowds grow throughout the evening? How many people do you think are actually out there? Can you give us an estimate?
SIDNER: We are now talking in the thousands. Yeah, we are now talking in the thousands. It has grown. It is bigger than it seems like than it was last night, as I watch the crowd grow last night. There are people and cars coming into the Target parking lot. There is a line of cars coming in to take part in this. And now, there are just a couple thousand people who are out here right now.
CAMPBELL: If you think about it, also, we are in one location here, by the police station, but this same type of activity is going on all around us. This is what I would call kind of a suburban shopping area where you have Big Buck stores. We walked around those locations. You have people that are, as we speak right now, trying to get their way inside, break their way inside the stores.
So, again, this is very much -- it seems like a tale of two groups of people. You have people here who are angry with the police department, you have others who are taking advantage of the situation, it would appear, to try to loot some of these buildings.
But as Sara said, I mean, this crowd just continues to grow. We've been out here for a couple of hours, for several hours now, and it just seems like the more you see this influx of people, from a law enforcement perspective, with now night having fallen here, the sun has gone down, the police officers can't really see this crowd, this is when it gets very dangerous.
And this is one that gets potentially very deadly because even if they wanted to keep tabs on everyone and everything that is going on in this location, they wouldn't be able to. If you think about the rest of this area, this neighborhood, and what people might be doing right now as this crowd spread out, it's a very dangerous and volatile situation here in Minnesota and Minneapolis, and I think the police know that, Don.
LEMON: When do police come back? When do they show back up? When is some order -- when will they try to restore some order to this area and to this situation?
CAMPBELL: Yes. So when you are in law enforcement and you are trying to defuse a situation, you have to ask yourself -- and we are looking because there are different sounds that are going on around us, different projectiles that sounds like they're being fired -- when you are law enforcement, you're trying to defuse the situation, you have to ask yourself, what best accomplishes that?
[23:35:03]
CAMPBELL: Is it a robust show of force? Do you move the police officers in, the riot police? Oftentimes, in certain situations, you will see that. That is not happening here. I think that calculation again is being made, that A, they don't have the manpower, they don't have enough officers, and B, this is a powder keg right here, this whole situation.
I mean, Sara, you know, you have been here for several hours. This situation is just very tense. We have been walking throughout the crowd. You have people who are shouting things at us and just clearly people that are very unhappy.
Imagine someone in uniform right now coming out, trying to either arrest or control this crowd. Again, Don, just a powder keg and it is an imperfect situation, obviously, because no one wants to see a loss of property, you don't want to see a loss of a government building.
Again, loud explosion here, fireworks, it sounds like. But that's the determination that they're trying to make right now. They don't want to inflame the situation, and we're seeing this across the country in different places.
LEMON: What about --
CAMPBELL: -- calculation, how do you get a crowd controlled.
LEMON: And what about people who are taking responsibility for this or held accountable for this? Will they be able to hold people accountable? Will they be able to see who started the fire? Will they use surveillance videos, surveillance cameras? Do you think they are going to go after the people or some people who took part in this, Josh?
CAMPBELL: Yeah. I mean, this police station behind us has CCTV it looked like on every single corner. So, obviously, you know, there is robust coverage here from a video surveillance perspective. I can tell you that may be the case, Don. We may see them coming later on and trying to identify people. Their goal right now is just to let this thing play out.
One thing that they have employed -- and now we are smelling some type of gasoline fumes, it smells like -- one thing I can tell you, Don -- excuse me, one second. One thing that they tried to do earlier was they were deploying what they called less than lethal foam round, and that is something that they shoot at protesters, someone who they think might be especially trying to aggravate a situation.
And the goal of that is to mark someone so that they can then follow up later on with the investigation. Yeah, we'll talk with you in just a second, one second. What they try to do is tag that person and then later on they can figure who the person was and what they were doing. But that is not their goal at the beginning. The goal is, you know, help, let the situation die down, and then the investigation will come later, if they're able to hold anyone accountable.
LEMON: It is interesting, Sara. As you said earlier, you saw people who were really close where they were getting hit by some of the sparks of the fire. As we saw some of the pictures from our affiliate helicopter, WCCO, people are standing extremely close to the flames, at the police department, dangerously close.
SIDNER: Yeah. I don't know if you can see this. Can you push in as close as you can? There are people so close to the flames that they could literally have the back of their heads cinched. That is how close they are sitting to those flames.
There are so many people pushed up against that, that if there were anything to blow up or get really, really strong there or some sort of back draft, this would be a really, really dangerous and potentially harmful, devastating situation for the protesters themselves who have put themselves in a position that is pretty dangerous when you look at those flames, sort of looking outside of the department.
But I do want to mention that Josh and I both saw protesters kicking down some of those polls that have some of the surveillance cameras on them, in the parking lot here, across the street. They are purposefully knocking over and trying to take down some of the surveillance cameras because they realize what those could be used for.
But for the folks that are here -- sir, would you mind for a second? We are just trying to get this picture. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. When you look here, the fire is getting bigger and stronger and it's now really gone deeply into that first foyer of the Minneapolis police department precinct three. You are seeing people, more and more, getting closer and closer. It is a really volatile, dangerous situation, Don. There is no other way to say it.
LEMON: I want to bring in now, as we watch these pictures, Neil Franklin, who is a former Maryland state police officer. Neil, I want to get your reaction to what is happening here. It appears from the crews who are on the scene, from Josh and Sara, no police presence. They hear no sirens. No one is being disciplined or -- they are not to move anyone back here. What is your reaction to this police station being set afire here in Minneapolis this evening?
NEIL FRANKLIN, FORMER MARYLAND STATE POLICE OFFICER: Yeah. I have a couple of concerns about that. Hopefully, they have taken precautions to move anything that is important out of that precinct. What I mean by that are maybe computers that might have information on them that is critical to solving crimes. This could potentially jeopardize that investigative work. I hope they either have this information back up or have taken some sort of precaution to move it out.
[23:40:00]
FRANKLIN: As well as anyone who might still in that building, any staff, any civilian personnel. Hopefully, all of those folks have been evacuated. But I think this is a strategic decision by the police. You know, if we have people out, in a riot situation, if this precinct, which is a government building, draws people to that location, instead of burning other buildings, instead of causing chaos in other parts of the city, that might be a wise decision to make.
LEMON: Interesting. Explain that again. Why is that?
FRANKLIN: So, you know, now you concentrated the people who are the aggressors, the people who are causing property damage, you are concentrating them in one place to vent, to release their anger and their frustration, instead of roaming through other parts of the city, burning buildings, looting buildings, potentially injuring people, it allows you to control the people more than if they were spread out in other areas of the city.
LEMON: And as a former Maryland state police officer, in your years in law enforcement, ever see anything like this?
FRANKLIN: Well, unfortunately, yes. I was in Baltimore City doing the Freddie Gray riots --
LEMON: I mean the burning police station.
FRANKLIN: Oh, the burning of a police station? Oh, yean. No, I have not seen this. Usually, the precinct stations are protected quite well with barricades and with personnel. I have never seen a precinct station set ablaze.
LEMON: Yeah. I'm wondering. What happens after -- this is my question. If you've never seen it, it is probably impossible to answer that question. Do we have Elie Honig online anywhere? Is Elie Honig there? Elie Honig is a former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York. Elie, what does happen after this? I don't know if you can answer that question, but you are a former assistant U.S. attorney --
ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.
LEMON: So, you may have some insight into this. Please, tell us. HONIG: Well, so there are two tracks regarding the potential murder investigation. There is a state investigation and a federal investigation.
We heard from the lead prosecutors today at the press conference, the state has to make a decision on how they are going to charge this, when are they going to charge this. Are they going to charge murder in the first degree, second degree, third degree under Minnesota law or some lesser manslaughter charge?
The Feds, meanwhile, the FBI, and the Justice Department are investigating for potential violation of civil rights law, which is a crime. So, both prosecutors are working. They should be coordinating, if they're doing this right, and they should be moving as quickly as they can towards a charge. I think we are seeing very viscerally, right now, why time is absolutely of the essence.
LEMON: And what about -- my question, specifically now is, what about this police station? As Neil al pointed out, this is a federal building, this is a public building. And again, I've never seen anything like this. I've seen people burned out other buildings but not a police station. I'm sure it's not unprecedented, but to happen live on television, so -- then what happens after this, Elie? That is my question.
HONIG: Yeah, Don. I've never seen anything like this either. There has to be an investigation. There have to be consequences for whoever it was, if they can isolate those people who burned down this building. I mean, to burn down a police station, there are serious crimes with that.
You are talking arson, first degree arson in all likelihood. Let's pray there is no bodily injury or death. If there is, we could be looking even more serious crimes. But there needs to be a very serious investigation.
Like Josh Campbell said, they are going to be looking at their surveillance videos. It is going to be difficult with the sheer volume of people who are there and the fact that it's night time. But there have to be real consequences for this. This is deadly serious.
LEMON: All right. Everybody, standby. Elie, thank you. Thank you, Neil. And also Josh and Sara, who are on the scene. I want to tell you that we have reached out to the Minneapolis Police Department for a response to this. They said they cannot respond at this moment. But we will keep an eye on these pictures, continue to report the story live.
So there you are. You are looking at the Minneapolis police precinct, being burned down, live, by protesters on national -- international television at 10:44 pm central time in Minneapolis, Minnesota. A quick break and we're back on the other side.
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[23:45:00]
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LEMON: We're back now with our breaking news. Let's get the pictures back up from Minneapolis, Minnesota where the third precinct, where the police officers who are involved in the stop of George Floyd ended up losing George Floyd, ended up losing his life as one of those officers kept a knee on his neck for about eight minutes or so. So protestors there are upset. Our affiliate WCCO is shooting aerials of the fires that have broken out there.
As we try to get those back, I want to bring in now CNN law enforcement analyst and former Washington D.C. police, Chief Charles Ramsey. He is on the phone. Also, a former police commissioner of Philadelphia, as well. So, Commissioner Ramsey, talk to me about this. You see this police station that has gone up in flame. People are angry again.
[23:50:00]
LEMON: You can understand the anger. But these acts of rioting and violence -- there are the pictures right now -- this should not be happening. This should not go on. What happens to the evidence, the case files, and God forbid, what if there are people who are still inside of this police department? Let us hope that is not the case. But what happens here?
CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST (via telephone): Well, this is a tragedy all the way around. You got an individual who has lost his life. There is absolutely no excuse at all. The actions of the police officer were totally wrong. No way in the world you can justify it. What you see going on now is beyond what is really justified in my opinion.
I understand the frustration. But burning and looting is not the way to solve the problem. It's just growing and growing and getting worse and worse as time goes on. And it could very well spread outside of Minneapolis. Already St. Paul, of course, is seeing its share of problems. I'm afraid it may expand even beyond that.
LEMON: So, Josh Campbell, who is a former FBI agent, said he believes that the calculation was made to leave the police department so there wouldn't be any loss of life. There were so many protesters who are trying to get in. And also Neil Franklin said it puts all of the actors or the people they consider wrongdoers in one place and that may actually be good for the rest of Minneapolis because all of these people have congregated in one place. Talk to me about that, Chief Ramsey.
RAMSEY (via telephone): Well, I mean, I don't know if I agree with that, to be honest with you. Certainly, evacuating the facility if they felt it was going to come to this would save lives. Most records are electronically stored anyway, so I don't think there's any issue there. But thinking that it's bringing all the bad actors or people who are upset to one location, I don't know.
I don't think that much thought went into it. I think they've just got a terrible situation that's out of control and really quite frankly don't know what to do. You burn this police station. OK, now what? What do you have after that? I mean, you know, people are frustrated and rightfully so. I totally get that. But this is not the way to resolve the problems.
If you want to do something, march on Washington. Let the Justice Department know how you feel. Surround the White House, surround the Capitol. Do all the things you need to do to bring this matter to everyone's attention so they can no longer ignore. This has been going on for a long time. It's a powder keg and it has just blown up.
LEMON: Couple things, Chief Ramsey. What about the folks -- and I want to move on and talk about -- not to mention this is happening in the middle of a pandemic, but the people are saying -- listen, people have tried to peacefully protest, they've tried to take a knee, and now this. What do you say to that argument?
RAMSEY (via telephone): I just don't think violence is the way to solve a problem. I really don't. And there is a problem. I'm not trying to justify what happened in Minneapolis or what has happened in other instances, far from it. We have to deal with it. But this is not the way to deal with it. Burning and looting is not the way to deal with it. It just isn't.
But I understand the frustration. But people have to calm down at least to be able to talk about it. Those officers need to be held accountable, I get it. They should be criminally charged, in my opinion. But even that, by itself, is not going to change what's going on in our country. And that's going to require serious change and serious people coming together and really doing what's necessary to make the changes so we don't continue to have incidents like this.
It taints everything. It taints the good police officers that are out there working hard, trying to do the right thing. It taints the community. It taints the city, everything. The entire criminal justice system is on trial here. It's not just the police. People are frustrated with the entire system. They do not believe they get a fair shake and in some instances, they're absolutely right, they don't.
LEMON: Again, this is happening during a pandemic. I have to get to a break, Chief Ramsey. But people have been at home for months, right?
RAMSEY (via telephone): Right.
LEMON: There is no social distancing when it comes to this. There may be people --
RAMSEY (via telephone): But there's so much frustration, Don. You know, I mean, black people are disproportionately impacted by the virus, job loss. You know who is disproportionately impacted by that. Now, you have this issue. The frustration is real. It's understandable. This just isn't the way to deal with it.
LEMON: Chief Ramsey, thank you very much. Appreciate your time. We want you to stand by as well as the rest of the folks who are out here covering this story that's taking place live for you in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Minneapolis is on fire right now. Minneapolis is burning. And you are watching it live. Quick break. We're back in a moment.
[23:55:00]
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LEMON: This is "CNN Tonight." Just before midnight here on the East Coast, I am Don Lemon, here's our breaking news, protests over the death of George Floyd in police custody. It's really spreading tonight. Police precinct in Minneapolis is on fire, surrounded by crowds of protesters.
And we are going to put up some incredible images for you. There it is. Fires are burning out of control there. The police department is saying staff of the third precinct was evacuated.
