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Don Lemon Tonight
Not Everyone On Board To Defund The Police; A.G. Bill Barr Admits President Trump Hid In The Bunker; Thousands Attended George Floyd's Funeral; Twenty-two States In The United States Are Seeing Jumps In New Coronavirus Cases; Activist Who Trains Police On Bias Severely Injured At George Floyd Protest; Couple Celebrates Their Wedding With Protesters At Philadelphia Protest. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired June 08, 2020 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: You're in the minority, Bubba.
BUBBA WALLACE, NASCAR DRIVER: Absolutely. I've been a minority all my life maybe in this world, outside of race we're in minority.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Well, even just your mindset about this and wanting to learn, I would imagine, at this point that could change but correct me if I'm wrong, but go on.
WALLACE: Yes. I believe, we know, we, like I said, these conversations are being had. Talking to drivers, getting their mindsets and hearing their stories as well, you know, hearing their side of things.
But like I said, that starts, that action that starts with removing the confederate flags and standing behind that 100 percent.
LEMON: Yes.
WALLACE: We ask nicely the first time. If they don't agree then you have a nice day and get on back on the road where you came from.
LEMON: Yes.
WALLACE: So, it should not be allowed. We should not be able to have an argument over that. It's a thick line that we cannot cross anymore. And that's just -- that's just a start of what we need to do.
LEMON: Yes.
WALLACE: Do we have an end goal? I don't know if the nation has an end goal. We want to -- obviously our end goal is to get racial inequality out of here and treat everybody equally. That is our end goal. But as far as the process we don't know the time frame on that.
LEMON: OK. Listen, I have to run. Again, I'm way over.
WALLACE: Absolutely. LEMON: You fainted after your race yesterday. You OK?
WALLACE: I'm all good. I'm here talking to you. Aren't I?
LEMON: I know. I just want to be sure that you're OK.
WALLACE: Yes. I'm good.
LEMON: Nothing, you just got a little excited. You're over heated or whatever. Yes.
WALLACE: A lot of stress and not a lot of time for preparation. But we're all good. I appreciate you checking in on me.
LEMON: I've been there. Trust me.
WALLACE: Absolutely.
LEMON: So, Bubba Wallace not Bubba Watson. That was my mistake. My bad. I can't read sometimes.
WALLACE: All good, brother.
LEMON: Thank you so much. I appreciate it, Bubba. Come back and see us. Good luck.
WALLACE: All right. Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you so much.
WALLACE: OK. Thanks.
LEMON: It is the top of the hour. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
Top of the hour 11 p.m. Just after here on the East Coast. It has been two weeks since George Floyd died in police custody. The video of a Minneapolis police officer with his knee on Floyd's neck shocked the nation leading to mass protests all across this country, even around the world.
A new CNN poll shows 84 percent of Americans say the peaceful protests of police violence against African-Americans are justified. That's leading to growing calls for action against police. But instead of addressing the anger and unrest in this country this is what the president said about the police today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We want to make sure we don't have any bad actors in there and sometimes you'll see some horrible things like we witnessed recently but 99, I say 99.9 but let's go with 99 percent of them are great, great people and they've done jobs that are record setting.
(END VIDEO CLIP) Meanwhile, the attorney general is contradicting the president's story about why he was in an underground bunker during protests outside the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I went down during the day and I was there for a tiny, little short period of time. And there was much more for an inspection. There was no problem during the day.
WILLIAM BARR, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: Things were so bad that the Secret Service recommended the president go down to the bunker. We can't have that in our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: We'll see how the president responds to that. Let's discuss now. John Harwood and national political reporter for the New York Times, Astead Herndorn both join me. Good evening. Just a quick note. NASCAR, interesting conversation don't you think, gentlemen?
JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
LEMON: The president's base and they're saying hey, move on down the road if you don't want to deal with the new way that we're going to conduct ourselves in NASCAR. We're going to be watching that one.
John, you just heard the attorney general clearly contradicting the president on why he was so obsessed with lying about going to the bunker. What gives?
HARWOOD: Well, what gives is, you know, you just talked about NASCAR and the president's base. The president has constructed a political base that is disproportionately composed of blue-collar white men. And he projects for them an image of toughness. He's done it since his campaign, talking about wanting to punch protesters, getting tough with immigrants, and firing the SOB NFL players and roughing up criminal suspects. It's a very macho kind of projection.
And so, if the idea got out and it did get out the previous Friday, that the president had gone down into the bunker for protection from the protesters in the wake of the Floyd killing, that was a laser shot right at his image of toughness.
LEMON: Yes.
HARWOOD: So, he -- they staged this a walk over to the church and cleared the street to do that. He pumped his fist while he was walking, the tough guy gesture with the chairman of the joint chiefs behind him. And then when he got the chance at the interview he said, no, no. I wasn't going down to the bunker. I was just going down to inspect it.
Unfortunately, for him the attorney general felt the need to protect his reputation because he's gotten fingered for giving the order for the troops to move, and he was trying to paint a picture that things were so dire that we needed to do that and so he exposed that the president had not been telling the truth.
[23:04:57]
Of course, the irony is that it's made all of them look bad. Made the president's position weaker rather than stronger and our poll today showed him down 14 points against Joe Biden.
LEMON: Well, I want to put -- let's talk about these polls. A new CNN poll out today shows that 65 percent of Americans think the president's response to protests have -- his response has been harmful. We're talking about Democrats and Republicans here. First, John, and then, Astead, I'm going to do -- I'll talk about a poll with you but how nervous is the White House tonight do you think about that, John?
HARWOOD: Extremely. Look, he is losing badly to Joe Biden right now. He is -- he gets very negative assessments for how he handled coronavirus, which is a disaster both in public health terms and economic terms. Forget the good jobs report last Friday. It was good in a limited way but the economy is still a mess even though the stock market is going up.
And now he's getting panned for his handling of these protests by two to one margin. So, his political position is weak and it's -- as you indicated, it's -- Democrats unanimously -- a majority of independents and a small number but a growing number of Republicans who have just had enough of this.
LEMON: Yes. Astead, now you, as I mentioned, 84 percent of people think that these peaceful protests are justified. I imagine those people don't approve of using pepper spray and rubber bullets against protesters so why is the White House still defending the Lafayette Park fiasco?
ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It's because they have a president who will allow them to give an inch. I mean, this is a president as John said who believe that those indictments go straight to his personality straight to the image that he is trying to project.
And so, there is an unwillingness to square that with even what is the political possibilities that were afforded to him by these two crises. I mean, I think of the quote from "Game of Thrones" that chaos can be a ladder. He was give -- he had two opportunities to really show himself as a different unifying figure, someone who leads, someone who could rise to the occasion in the way that would overshadow maybe some of the things that had happened in three years prior but he has fallen on that ladder. He has not shown a willingness to be able to rise to that occasion and I think voters are picking up on that.
I was in Georgia a couple days ago in the most conservative county in the state. And it was remarkable to me just how many people were willing to universally agree that the actions of the police officer were wrong and that the protesters were justified.
If they're operating from that place then that gives the president -- then that gives the president less wiggle room to be able to make this solely about looting or rioting and limited aspects. There are larger civil rights questions here at play and he has not dealt with those.
LEMON: Good conversation. Astead, John, thank you so much. I appreciate it.
George Floyd's family is preparing for his funeral tomorrow as calls for justice and police reform are getting louder.
CNN's Sara Sidner has more now.
SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A somber homecoming for George Floyd in Houston where the hearse carrying his casket arrived at the Floyd family church this morning for a public memorial attended by thousands.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHILONISE FLOYD, GEORGE FLOYD'S BROTHER: All the families that are here with today Michael Brown, Eric, garner, Arbery. It just hurts. Breonna Taylor, everybody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Love you!
FLOYD: Thank you all. We will get justice. We will get it. We will not let this door close.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Presumptive Democratic nominee for president Joe Biden met privately today with the Floyd family. The family will have their final private service here tomorrow.
In Minneapolis, the first court appearance for fired Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin who is the officer that held his knee on Floyd's neck for over eight minutes until Floyd died. The judge set bail at up to $1.25 million. This as the attorney for one of the other three officers also charged in Floyd's death is speaking out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was doing what he thought was right. He did not stand by and watch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Over the weekend from coast to coast huge protests continued, calling for racial justice and police reforms including defunding police departments. In Minneapolis, the city council approved a plan to start the process of dismantling the police department and rebuild a new model of public safety.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LISA BENDER, PRESIDENT, MINNEAPOLIS CITY COUNCIL: Our commitment is to end our city's toxic relationship with the Minneapolis Police Department. To end policing as we know it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: But the mayor is not onboard.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR JACOB FREY (D), MINNEAPOLIS: I am for massive structural and transformational reform to an entire system that has not for generations worked for black and brown people.
[23:10:01]
We have failed them and we need to entirely reshape the system. Am I for entirely abolishing the police department? No, I'm not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Outside today's service in Houston, Texas Governor, Greg Abbott says this is the most horrific tragedy he's ever seen and promised police reforms across his state.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R-TX): I am committed to working with the family of George Floyd to ensure we never have anything like this ever occur in the state of Texas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Leaders across the country are already looking for new ways to repurpose some funds from law enforcement to other areas. Like in New York City.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK CITY: We're going to be able to take money out of that police force, put it into youth programs, and still of course keep New Yorkers safe. But this is preventative. This is proactive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: And in Washington, D.C. where activists painted defund police near the black lives matter street mural the player said what's been submitted for police funding in her budget is what's needed. She avoided directly answering whether the addition to the mural would be removed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR MURIEL BOWSER (D), DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA: We recognize it as expression and especially right now acknowledging and affirming expression is important to this discussion that we have to have as a community.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Sara Sidner, CNN, Houston, Texas.
LEMON: Sara, thank you so much. George Floyd's funeral will be held tomorrow at the Fountain of Praise Church in Houston. And joining me now the church's pastor, senior pastor Remus Wright, and copastor Mia Wright. I appreciate you both joining us. Good evening to you.
MIA WRIGHT, CO-PASTOR, THE FOUNTAIN OF PRAISE: Good evening, Don.
LEMON: Pastor Remus, Pastor Wright, Pastor Wright, Remus Wright, you have been counseling members of this family, of the Floyd family. How are they holding up? How are they doing in this moment?
REMUS E. WRIGHT, SENIOR PASTOR, THE FOUNTAIN OF PRAISE: Well, you know, right now they're standing pretty strong, Don, because they have a lot of people around them. However, the concern is always that they haven't had an opportunity to really grieve properly because of all that has happened, and you know, because of people around them bombarding them with, of course, flowers and words that are really good words.
The truth of the matter is they haven't had an opportunity to really process all of this. And so that's why we've been sticking very close to them. And you know, we're going to stick with them not only now but in the weeks to come.
LEMON: Yes. Listen, it's always just unfathomable. I can't even think about having to grieve in public the way that this family is doing. And in the way so many other families do when they're forced into these situations.
They are dealing with their own personal grief while people are protesting all around the world in George's name, people asking to do interviews and to be, you know, out in public. It is an unfathomable position for them to be in. What have you been advising them? How do you advise a family or someone through this?
R. WRIGHT: We tell them to draw strength from one another, of course to draw strength from their faith, from their God. We tell them that, you know, they have a church family that stands in agreement with them that's with them and we tell them to allow the processes of something of this horrific nature to work their course.
You know what I mean? You know, you go through the process of astonishment, grief, despair, anger, outrage and then, finally, acceptance. And so, we've been telling them, let these -- let these processes occur. Let this happen.
LEMON: How do you -- how did your -- the folks in your church distinguish you? Do they call you Pastor Remus and Pastor Mia or how do they --
M. WRIGHT: He is Pastor Wright and I'm Pastor Mia.
LEMON: OK. All right. Now I got it. Because that's why in the beginning --
R. WRIGHT:
LEMON: I was like, wait a minute I want to make sure they know which Pastor Wright I'm speaking about. So, Pastor Mia, what can you tell us about the plans for the funeral tomorrow, please?
M. WRIGHT: Well, in the tradition of the African-American church, Don, we will be hosting a home going celebration for brother Floyd, you know. There are a lot of people calling it a funeral and although it was traumatic, his matter of death, and it was very sad and tragic and very public, we also want to make sure that his transition, his period as we've had his final viewing here on earth and when we close that casket that we celebrate a life.
That we celebrate a life that, you know, had its ups and downs as many lives do but also a life that was connected to God and one that all people around the world have now connected to because of the tragedy and the trauma by which he passed.
And so, we want to have a home going celebration. We want to remember his name. We want to remember the good times that he celebrated. We will have gospel singing. We'll have amazing speakers who will bring forth, like Reverend Al Sharpton, who will have a call to justice, a call for social reform, but also those who have in our city, Dr. Bill Lawson who's been a civil rights leader for many years in the city of Houston he'll be speaking.
Others that will bring forth words of comfort to the family and to our community because it's so important that we move forward from here from a place of healing and wholeness because if we expect change to happen our community -- in our communities, we can't come from anger and hurt and loss.
[23:15:09]
We have to learn how to move as a whole unit and so we plan to have a home going celebration tomorrow.
LEMON: Just listening to both of you, they're in good hands just from our short conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you. I appreciate you joining us here. And be safe. OK?
R. WRIGHT: God bless you.
M. WRIGHT: Thank you.
M. WRIGHT: We watch you every night.
LEMON: Thank you.
M. WRIGHT: We enjoy your show.
LEMON: I'm glad you do. Thank you. You're the ones or the two. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. We'll see you soon.
R. WRIGHT: OK. LEMON: The president has been railing against calls to defund the
police. I'm going to talk to a former police officer who says it could be a good idea. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Growing calls from protesters and activists for police reform including a push to defund the police. What that means depends on who you ask. OK. So, President Trump already weaponizing the phrase as a political issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[23:20:05]
TRUMP: There won't be defunding. There won't be dismantling of our police. There are not going to be any disbanding of our police.
Ninety-nine, I say 99.9 but let's go with 99 percent of them are great, great people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Let's discuss now with former Maryland State Police Officer Neill Franklin is here, and CNN political commentator David Swerdlick. OK. I've been wanting to have this conversation all day. I'm glad that I'm having it with you two.
So, Neill, you first. Such a wide spectrum of what defund the police means to people. You say defunding the police is a good idea. What does it mean to you?
NEILL FRANKLIN, FORMER MARYLAND STATE POLICE OFFICER: Well, Don, first of all, what you said is right. It means different things to different people. Generally speaking, it means a shifting of limited resources in an effort to improve public safety for everyone.
And the Baltimore Sun they did an editorial and I think they put it very well. They pretty much said it's about whether cities and towns across the nation should be investing in less quasi-military forces and more in services and institutions that prevent crime from happening in the first place.
So, what if on demand treatment reduced crime, and I think it does. What if easy access to mental health services did the same thing? What if we had excellent schools and job training, decent health care, housing, nutrition, all of this helping in a way to reduce crime and actually it does, Don. It saves money. And it's -- you know what, the results are long term not short term what we generally see from policing.
LEMON: OK. I don't think anyone disagrees with you on that.
FRANKLIN: Right.
LEMON: I think the question is when you hear the term, defund the police, it sounds like people who want to eliminate police departments all together. And that is certainly how the president is using it. Do you understand what I'm saying?
FRANKLIN: Yes. I don't think that's the best term. I think we should focus with the term that focuses on investing in the things that I just mentioned. So, and we're already doing that in a sense.
Police agencies -- the law enforcement action partnership has been working with police agencies for the past few years on this sort of thing dealing with 24/7 crisis centers for mental health, places -- housing for the homeless right?
Substance abuse, harm reduction efforts and all of this is effective in reducing crime. It's just time to take it to the next level. But defunding the police? Maybe we can come up with a better term for it because --
DAVID SWERDLICK, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right.
LEMON: Yes.
FRANKLIN: -- it is not necessarily talking about dismantling police departments.
LEMON: yes. But that's what it sounds like. David, am I right?
SWERDLICK: yes.
LEMON: That's what everyone thinks like, what? How are you going to get rid of the police?
FRANKLIN: And don't get me wrong. There are some people that do want to do that.
LEMON: They do.
FRANKLIN: But that's going to take a long time if it's possible. It's going to take a while. It may not be. But we need models. We need to try something different. The current model of policing in the United States was never designed for people of color.
LEMON: OK.
FRANKLIN: It was never designed for the benefit of black people.
LEMON: All right. Yes. So, David.
FRANKLIN: Well --
LEMON: I just said yes. I mean, that's all I have to say.
SWERDLICK: Don --
LEMON: So, jump in here because you understand what I'm saying. And listen, I have friends who are part of the black lives matter movement and they send me notes saying, Don, this is -- because I said it's so nebulous -- this is what defunding the police means. And then there is a whole, like paragraph or two.
SWERDLICK: There is a whole laundry list.
LEMON: And it's like wait a minute.
SWERDLICK: Right.
LEMON: And if you can't put it on a bumper sticker it's going to be hard to sell. I'm just being honest. Go on.
SWERDLICK: Bumper sticker is exactly it. Defund the police as a slogan fits on a bumper sticker but what the average person hears is get rid of the police or dismantle the police --
LEMON: Right.
SWERDLICK: -- and then when you have the president of the Minneapolis city council saying over the weekend that the council is committed to dismantling the police that reinforces it. You set up a situation, and I agree with you and I agree with Neill, where on the side of people who want reform you're raising expectations when you might not be able to deliver, and on the other side you're setting up a situation where people resisting reform up to and including the president can easily demagogue the issue.
When you actually get to hear as you are saying with activists, with politicians what people plan to do, you have the council president armed with Chris earlier tonight and she was back peddling off that because she was saying, look. No, we'll do a year-long rethink, we're going to implement some deep reforms, we're going to bring all our stakeholders in.
LEMON: It's too much.
SWERDLICK: That doesn't fit on a bumper sticker.
LEMON: It's too much. And listen I have someone, just someone who I respect and who is a lawmaker says, Don, defund the police is the dumbest concept I've heard of. People want reform. They want to fix it. Police the police.
[23:25:00]
But to suggest no one would show up when the police are called, that's crazy. I won't say that's who it is. But I'm not saying that I agree with it. But that is the sentiment --
(CROSSTALK)
FRANKLIN: And I don't think that's what people are suggesting.
LEMON: But, Neill --
(CROSSTALK)
FRANKLIN: I know -- LEMON: Listen, I'm not -- listen, hang on, Neill, Neill, Neill. I'm not defending, I'm not saying people should defund the police or not defund the police.
FRANKLIN: Right.
LEMON: But in this time when this president is so smart at messaging are you sure you want your slogan to be defund the police and you want people to think that you want to dismantle police departments? I don't think so.
So that's all I'm saying. Be smart and strategic --
FRANKLIN: I hear you.
LEMON: -- about what you are doing and what you're saying before you go on this tangent that leads you down this rabbit hole that probably, not probably but that can end up doing more harm than good for the cause that you actually want to help.
Listen, even the former vice president said that he is not cool with this. He said, he's -- you know, and President Trump is using this attack to -- this phrase to attack Biden, David.
SWERDLICK: Yes.
LEMON: Is this going to help Joe Biden that he feels this way or if this actual defund the policing is not going to hurt him?
SWERDLICK: I don't know that the election is going to be decided on this but you have the vice president, Vice Presiden56t Biden, you have leaders in Congress on the Democratic side pushing back on defund the police for the reason that we've talked about.
They've got this package that they introduced this week where they want to do things like get rid of qualified immunity, have different -- have a registry so that police who are fired can't go to other departments in other towns, have some antilynching provisions, et cetera.
They may get some of it with Republicans. They may get none of it. But they are saying, look. If we want to have a meaningful debate, we at least need to go away from the cloud of a slogan that's easily demagogue.
LEMON: So as the person I just read, police the police may be better. But anyway, who am I?
FRANKLIN: But they can't police themselves.
LEMON: Thank you.
FRANKLIN: That's the key.
LEMON: Well that's the point. Right? That's the whole thing.
FRANKLIN: That's the point.
LEMON: Thank you. Thank you both. I appreciate it.
SWERDLICK: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: CDC says it is closely monitoring protests across the country as concerns grow crowds of protest -- protests could lead to a spike in coronavirus cases. More, next.
[23:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So you've been watching all those crowds out there and wondering, whew, man, this is COVID-19, what happened to social distancing and so on and so forth. I've been thinking about it.
Nearly half of the states in the U.S., by the way, are seeing spikes in corona cases. I don't know if that's related, but it's made me think about it. A dozen of those states are having increases of more than 50 percent in the past week. OK. The CDC worried that the protests that we're seeing across the country could be seeding new infections.
Joining me now is the Dr. William Schaffner, the professor of infectious diseases at Vanderbilt University. It is so good to see you again. I wish we had better news, though, Dr. Schaffner. Again, that has been top of mind as I have been watching these protests. I'm sure you've been thinking about it. We know there is a lag time in these increases.
Two weeks ago, that was Memorial Day weekend. All states were partially reopened by then. The protests started shortly after. Are we starting to see the result of that?
WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, PROFESSOR OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: Well, Don, a lot of us have been concerned about that. Obviously, opening up generally at different places, at different speeds, and some people very conservative, others more carefree, as you mentioned the Memorial Day, and now all of these gatherings, terribly important for a social and cultural issue, undoubtedly, but we were all concerned about coronavirus.
There are mass gatherings. People are close to each other for a prolonged period of time. They're exercising their lungs so they're inhaling and exhaling extensively. They may get a little bit irritated in their mucous membranes if they catch some of the tear gas or the pepper spray that might make it easier for the coronavirus to start something. And then, of course, some of those people were taken away, put on a bus, and put in a holding cell for a while.
LEMON: Right.
SCHAFFER: So, all of those things, plus the fact, obviously, that so many people of color were there, a community already disproportionately affected. Now, on the good side is that it was outdoors. That's where the demonstrations are.
LEMON: And warmer weather.
SCHAFFNER: Lots of people are wearing masks.
LEMON: And warmer weather. And warmer weather may have an effect on the transmissibility of the disease, right? That's what I --
SCHAFFNER: Maybe.
LEMON: Maybe. We don't know. Maybe, maybe, maybe.
SCHAFFNER: It is kind of a balance --
LEMON: Yeah.
SCHAFFNER: -- but we are concerned that the coronavirus may have attended some of those demonstrations.
LEMON: So, President Trump is gearing up to re-launch his campaign rallies in the next two weeks or so. Aides say that he is anxious to get back out after the protests. We know how packed these rallies can get and that the president feels masks are a matter of choice. Are you concerned about the potential for these rallies to be super spreading events?
SCHAFFNER: Of course we are. People getting close together is what the coronavirus likes. COVID likes to be transmitted in circumstances like that, when people are close to each other. If they're not wearing masks, the risk of transmission increases. And not in every one of these rallies, but in some of them, as in some of the demonstrations, you might well get a small burst of transmission.
[23:35:02]
SCHAFFNER: Whether we will ever be able to determine that the transmission occurred at a demonstration or a rally is another matter because we're seeing increases in cases from opening up already.
LEMON: Interesting. So, WHO make a surprising announcement today that it seems to be very rare that asymptomatic people spread the virus. Does that contradict what we have been told all along? Isn't it we've been saying all along that people who are asymptomatic are spreaders?
SCHAFFNER: Listen, we're all scratching our heads because it was at the same time that the WHO went over to the way we're using masks --
LEMON: Right.
SCHAFFNER: -- and we're using masks universally obviously to interrupt transmission, including from people who don't have symptoms. So, that has got to be clarified by the WHO and it certainly a different way of thinking than (INAUDIBLE) transmission of this virus.
LEMON: Dr. Schaffner, always informative. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it.
SCHAFFNER: My pleasure, Don.
LEMON: A man who trains police officers against bias is seriously injured at a protest after officers fired rubber bullets at him and other peaceful protesters. He joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: OK, so, a 27-year-old community activist was seriously wounded at a George Floyd protest in San Jose last month when he was hit by a rubber bullet. Derrick Sanderlin has worked for years trying to help root out bias in policing and to create bonds between his community and officers. Now, as a result of his injuries, doctors say he may never be able to have children. Derrick Sanderlin joins me now and we appreciate it. How are you?
DERRICK SANDERLIN, COMMUNITY ORGANIZER AND ACTIVIST: I'm just resting up and healing up. I'm doing as best I can, man.
LEMON: OK. We certainly wish you the very best early on. Let me say that. The march where you were injured was tense.
SANDERLIN: Mm-hmm.
LEMON: So, tell us what was happening before police shot you with a rubber bullet.
SANDERLIN: So, I would say right before we had just gotten off the freeway and, you know, after a window had been broken and yet it felt -- the tension was starting to rise. I was, yeah, just noticing the police starting to push people and cuss at folks, started to gradually get worse as we were heading back to city hall where, you know, this was declared an unlawful assembly and started firing rubber bullets into the crowd.
LEMON: Yeah.
SANDERLIN: So an old lady got shot with a rubber bullet. Looked over --
LEMON: Obviously, there was tension there and it ended up you were trying to -- I don't know. I think you are trying to intervene. It says that you stood between a line with protesters and the police, pleading for officers to stop shooting rubber bullets into the crowd. And one of the officers appeared to take aim directly at your groin and fire. So what --
SANDERLIN: Correct.
LEMON: So what kind of training do you offer police?
SANDERLIN: So, I am a part of a beloved community team, as part of (INAUDIBLE), a local organization that, you know, we advocate for police accountability and, you know, increased transparency in our city, San Jose, and across the county. You know, we focus around civilian oversight. We focus around, you know, body cameras, a lot of different things.
And among that, we also do procedural justice training where we go to the police academy and we talk to them about inherent bias. We talk to them about the cultural and historical context of policing and what role that plays when they put on their uniform and how people perceive them.
LEMON: So was anybody adhering to any of these things that you teach when you are out there?
SANDERLIN: No. You know, there were a couple of people.
LEMON: Meaning officers, obviously.
SANDERLIN: Meaning officers, right. You know, unfortunately, although there were like officers who were there who clearly didn't have any ill intent, the fact that, you know, everyone was there sort of complicit in the violence that was happening around them --
LEMON: They had become co-opted by the system and the people around them. I got to ask you because --
SANDERLIN: That's right.
LEMON: -- you know San Jose Police Chief Eddie Garcia personally, OK, and he is calling on you. He is calling you a leader, I should say, in the community and promising an investigation into this after what happened to you.
[23:45:00]
LEMON: Do you think police departments can be reformed?
SANDERLIN: Don, you know, I've been doing this work for a long time, and I think that is one of the most disappointing things about this situation that we're in. I was holding a lot of tension over the years fighting for police accountability, watching folks like Jenny Vazquez and Anthony Nunez be taken from their families, you know, without a moment's notice, and also trying to hope for something better --
LEMON: Yeah.
SANDERLIN: -- and trying to fix the system slowly. And that was, like, you know, someone trying to move a mountain with a shovel. But I think people are asking a larger question than that. I think it's time to stop talking about reform. There are cities all over the United States as well as within my state of California that are committed to defunding the police, disbanding and starting over.
We need to reimagine what public safety can look like. And I think that means, you know, taking cops out of schools and having the city budget for better education. I think that means, you know, taking the internal affairs office out and putting more funding into independent civilian oversight. You know, we got to do better than this.
LEMON: I'm out of time. We are going to continue to talk about this because I just had a conversation about what it actually means to defund the police department. Is there a better term? Some people are asking because when they hear defund the police, they are thinking that means dismantle police departments.
I got to tell you, it is a very strong argument for people who may not agree with what you're saying, and even for people who do agree with what you're saying. When you say, again, defund the police, people think it is dismantling the police department. I certainly want if someone is in my house or if I have an issue with my home or there is a burglar, anything like that, I want a police officer to come. And so, you know --
SANDERLIN: Mm-hmm.
LEMON: -- just give that food for thought. OK?
SANDERLIN: Absolutely.
LEMON: I got to run.
SANDERLIN: Yeah.
LEMON: Thank you. We appreciate it. You be well. We wish you well.
SANDERLIN: All right.
LEMON: And heal. Please, heal, heal, heal. A beautiful moment in the midst of protests. This couple is celebrating their marriage in the streets of Philadelphia along with a huge crowd of protesters. They join me next.
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[23:50:00]
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LEMON: Thousands of people taking to the streets in Philadelphia this weekend to protest the death of George Floyd. But two really stood out. OK? A bride and a groom. Look at this! They're beautiful. You can hear the cheering as Dr. Kerry-Anne Perkins and Michael Gordon wearing their full wedding attire joined the protesters at city hall after their ceremony.
The newlyweds join me now. You guys are beautiful out there. I mean, wedding couples are always beautiful. Look at you, this gorgeous couple in person. My goodness! You look like the top of a chocolate black wedding cake.
(LAUGHTER)
MICHAEL GORDON, JOINED PROTEST ON WEDDING DAY: We love it, we love it, we love it. (LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Congratulations.
GORDON: Thank you.
KERRY-ANNE PERKINS, JOINED PROTEST ON WEDDING DAY: Thank you so much.
LEMON: So you made quite an exit from the Logan Hotel.
GORDON: That was actually an entrance.
LEMON: That was the entrance?
PERKINS: Yes.
LEMON: Tell us what we're watching in this video. Talk to us about what we're watching in this video and the crowd cheering. What was going on and what were you thinking?
PERKINS: So, essentially, at that time, we were really having our first look. So, this was pre-ceremony. This was pre-marriage.
GORDON: No ring.
(LAUGHTER)
PERKINS: And the Logan actually is closed. So our ceremony was scheduled to be on the courtyard. So, at that time, the parkway where the protest would be happening is essentially right where the Logan is located. So, as the protestors are walking down, we are preparing for that first look.
And so, it just so happens that our first look -- at that time when you see me and depending on the video you're looking at, you see me by myself and I'm looking into what seems like the crowd. What really was happening is that Michael was approaching me for the first time on our wedding day.
LEMON: Oh.
PERKINS: So, there were a lot of emotions with that. There's emotions of the movement that's happening right around us.
LEMON: But so -- but why? Why did you do it? Why did you choose this moment? Why did you decide to do this, in front of the whole crowd of protesters? Join the protesters?
PERKINS: Well, that's the thing. That was not a decision. That was not something that was --
LEMON: You were just walking in?
PERKINS: I was standing there, prior to the protest actually --
LEMON: Oh, OK. Sorry. I'm looking at the pictures. I'm not getting what you're saying because you guys look so great. And I'm like crying because it's so sweet.
GORDON: The end result, we're kind of just going to the buildup to that moment.
PERKINS: Right.
(LAUGHTER)
PERKINS: That was not planned at all. It's not like the protest was ongoing prior to that and we're like, oh, let's do this, not at all. When I initially got to the position, there were no protesters walking along that path.
[23:55:06]
PERKINS: And so, that happened over minutes.
GORDON: Yeah.
PERKINS: And then, eventually, the protest was passing by and people kind of stopped and they initially saw me. They were giving us very positive, like, messages, congratulations, and things like that.
LEMON: I got to say you guys were so amazing and it was really great. There was someone behind you with purple hair. That did not even steal your thunder or outshine you.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: You were -- you were --
PERKINS: I didn't notice that yet.
LEMON: You were gorgeous and beautiful. Thank you so much for joining us. And I love you holding up the fist and everything. This is a wedding that you obviously will not forget. Have a wonderful, happy life together. OK? Congratulations. I can't --
GORDON: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: -- I can't wait to meet your kids and be invited to your anniversary.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Thank you, guys.
GORDON: Likewise. We can't meet to meet you.
PERKINS: Thank you so much.
LEMON: Congratulations. Thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.
PERKINS: Thank you.
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