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Don Lemon Tonight

President Trump Met Privately With Some Family Members Of Victims Of Police And Racial Violence; Coronavirus Pandemic; U.S. Coronavirus Deaths Nearing 117,000; President Trump And Vice President Pence Fail To Wear Mask At Events Today; Tulsa County Judge Denies Bid To Stop Trump Rally; President Trump Signs Executive Order to Reform Policing. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired June 16, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Now my favorite part of the job.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: There he is.

CUOMO: Introducing "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon.

LEMON: Yes. Did you watch the Rose Garden?

CUOMO: I did. Here's my question for you. How can you suggest that you want to solve a problem that you will not mention?

LEMON: You mean systemic racism?

CUOMO: He did not say those words.

LEMON: Well, you have to first of all believe they exist in order to fix it. If it doesn't exist --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: He did not say bias. He did not say racism. He did not say systemic racism. He said sometimes officers misuse their power. Not even abuse.

LEMON: Yes. And therein lies the problem that I need to get to. All right? I'll see you. Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I love you, Don Lemon.

LEMON: More. More. Love you more. Thank you, Chris.

So, this is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Just off of what we just talked about. Is an order really an order when you don't have to obey it? Think about that. That's the question. President Trump using the ceremony grandeur of the White House Rose

Garden to sign an executive order outlining suggestion for modest reforms on policing in America.

So, is it really reform? The executive order is more of list of guidelines in the wake of three week of protests across America to the death of George Floyd, while a former Minneapolis police officer kneeled on his neck.

And you're going to hear as you've heard in the show, the order and the standards sets -- it sets our essentially voluntary. OK? Also, before signing that signing the president met privately today with family members of the victims of police and racial violence. And he was said to be visibly moved at the stories of their loved ones.

Again, we have talked about that on this show. About the low bar that is set for this president and his lack of empathy. Reportedly he did have some today. Tonight, we are going to hear from some people who met with him.

But let me ask you, who would not have empathy for these families? Who would not have empathy for these families? I'm glad the president did. But think about what it means that it is actually news tonight that the President of the United States did something that any human being would and should do. Show empathy to families who lost loved ones.

To put an emphasis on something that should be expected simply whitewashes the overall broader narrative of the abusive behavior exhibited by this president. I'll explain in a second. I'll go through that.

But how about take that compassion and turn it into some actual concrete substantiate change. OK? The order suggests banning chokeholds. Suggests. Because there's a pretty big loophole in there. That officers can use it whenever use of deadly force is allowed by law. It suggests new training techniques. But doesn't make any of it mandatory.

So, you can understand why there is real skepticism among many, if not most African-Americans in this country about the signing and the president's Rose Garden address. Repeating his campaign theme that he is a law and order president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Americans want law and order, they demand law and order. They may not say it. They may not be talking about it but that's what they want.

But I strongly oppose the radical and dangerous efforts to defend, dismantle and dissolve our police departments. Especially now when we achieved the lowest recorded crime rates in recent history. Americans know the truth without police there is chaos. Without law there is anarchy. And without safety there is catastrophe.

(END VIDEO CLIP) [22:05:00]

LEMON: So, as we discussed the president called out Chris and I, looting and violence. Saying it won't be tolerated. But the police officers using the tactics that have Americans filling the streets in protest, they're just a few bad apples. Hardly a problem.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They are very tiny. I use the word tiny. It's a very small percentage. But you have them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: This president has previously encouraged more police violence. This is the president who, just a few years back, called on police officers to get violent with suspects when putting them in squad cars. And they cheered him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: When you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon. You just see him thrown in. Rough. I said please don't be too nice. Like when you guys put somebody in the car and you're protecting their head, you know. The way you put the hand -- like don't hit their head and they've just killed somebody. Don't hit their head, I said you can take the hand away. OK?

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And they cheered him. You can understand the skepticism, can't you? And he slammed professional athletes for taking a knee during the national anthem. Protesting the very racial injustice that's playing out in America right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Wouldn't you love to see one of these NFL owners when somebody disrespects our flag to say, get that son of a bitch off the field right now. Out. He's fired. He's fired.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: You can understand the skepticism. I'm sure. If the president and the NFL and others had listened to the message then, had taken those protests seriously. Looked at them with empathy, with compassion. Listened to the message and moved for real change, here's another question for you. Would there be fewer dead black bodies now? We won't know.

But what we do know is that he used attacks on them and what they were trying to do to score political points. So today, in the Rose Garden President Trump did not address the issue of systemic racism in American policing. Because he and his apologists and his top aides don't believe it exists.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said you don't believe in systemic racism?

LARRY KUDLOW, DIRECTOR, U.S. NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: I do not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At all in the U.S.?

KUDLOW: I do not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't think there's any systemic racism against African-Americans in the United States?

KUDLOW: I will say it again. I do not.

TRUMP: We want to make sure we don't have any bad actors in there. And sometimes you'll see some horrible things like we witnessed recently. But 99, I say 99.9 but let's go with percent of them are great, great people. And they've done jobs that are record setting.

WILLIAM BARR, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think there's racism in the United State still. But I don't think that the law enforcement system is systemically racist.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Do you think systemic racism is a problem in law enforcement agencies in the United States?

ROBERT O'BRIEN, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: No. I don't think there is systemic racism. I think 99.9 percent of our law enforcement officers are great Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Notice something about all those people? The president's poll numbers are so bad due to his mishandling of the coronavirus pandemic and his lack of empathy at the gruesome killing of George Floyd. That every public appearance anymore is automatically a campaign event. There's no hiding from his words.

For example, he bashed President Obama falsely claiming his predecessor did nothing to try to reform American criminal justice. Of course, President Obama did. Trump even rolled back some of his reform policies.

And how does any of this have anything to do with police reform? Trump touted the jump in retail sales last month. Talking about employment numbers for black, Latino, Asian-Americans and the rebound on Wall Street and school choice just to name a few of his favorite topics. He even threw a bone to his conservative white base on the taking down of confederate statues.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We must build upon the heritage. Not tear it down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:10:00]

LEMON: OK. Our heritage. Think about our heritage. That is an interesting thing for a man from New York City to say about the confederacy. Our heritage. Remember those were statues were losers and traitors. But it's our heritage. He's from New York City.

President Trump also patted himself on the back over his administration's handling of the coronavirus even though cases are on the rise around the country.

But I want you to take a look at this. The virus is still raging. More than two million cases in the U.S. and more than 116,000 deaths. Yet, Trump and his aides are just ignoring it. Barely anyone in the Rose Garden was wearing a mask today.

And Vice President Pence is being just as irresponsible. Visiting a diner in Iowa with no mask on. Like a loyal Trump soldier, he is on the mission to down play the virus. Just wish it away.

Writing an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal claiming there is no second wave of coronavirus. By the way, Mike Pence is not a doctor. Anthony Fauci is a doctor. The most respected epidemiologist in the country. Reminding Americans again today that COVID-19 is a serious disease. Advising people not to gather in crowds. And pleading with them to wear a mask if they do. Good advice. Not to gather in crowds.

The Trump campaign ignoring it. Planning to hold a rally inside an arena in Tulsa on Saturday. The arena can pack -- can pack nearly 20,000 people. But those attending are not required to put on a mask.

And the Vice President Pence, head of the Coronavirus Task Force falsely claiming that the number of cases in Oklahoma is on a steep decline. We checked the facts. Remember facts first around here, right?

Oklahoma is seeing a spike in cases. An administration official saying tonight that Trump, Pence and others in the White House are, quote, "in denial about the virus." But for the reality show president and his cast of characters, the show must go on. And it will on Saturday in Oklahoma. Stay tuned.

So, the question still remains, as I said in the beginning, is an order really an order when you don't have to obey it? I'll discuss with one of the only, one of only two high-ranking black members of the Trump administration, and the only black deputy assistant to the president. Ja'Ron Smith is next.

[22:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: President Trump trying to make a move to address the growing national concern of police brutality in America. Signing an executive order that among other things suggests banning chokeholds but with a pretty big loophole.

We're going to talk about that. But earlier this evening I spoke with Ja'Ron Smith. One of only two high-ranking black members of the Trump administration and the only black deputy assistant to the president.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Ja'Ron, I appreciate you joining us. Thank you so much. Do you see this executive order as a first step? Does it go far enough? Because it offers guidelines but it relies heavily on local jurisdictions to participate and it doesn't have legislation in place right now to back it up. How do you see it?

JA'RON SMITH, DEPUTY ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT: I think it's a great first step because at the end of the day people need the relational aspects right now. The co-responder program which is a joint team effort of HHS and DOJ to send out co-responders, social workers on the beat with them to deal with mental illness and drug addiction. Issues such as homelessness.

This is way to really change the way we do police. But more importantly, setting standards, national standards through accreditation and tying up with a funding and prioritizing it as a way to really fix our police departments in a major way.

And then lastly, having a database that tracks all the bad cops and making sure that they don't jump from police department to police department are all very revolutionary things. And more importantly, this came out of the fruit of the families who were hurt through these past interactions and the police department.

LEMON: OK, listen, I want to be mindful because we have a delay here. And so, I didn't jump in on it. But there a lot of things that I want to cover. I want to talk what you said about social workers and mental health workers and -- but let's talk about the database that you mention specifically first.

SMITH: Sure.

LEMON: This database for police misconduct can you tell us tonight that after the president signed this that every police department in the country will need to report their problem, their problem police officers to this database? Is that what happens here?

SMITH: Yes. That's what we're doing. Trying to incentivize those police departments to do the just that. Because having that system --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But you said incentivize. That's a keyword. Incentivize. There's a difference between incentivizing someone which appears to be a suggestion or where they can get more money possibly if they do it. Or making it mandatory that a department has to do this. Which is it?

[22:19:57] SMITH: Well, this is not -- well, this is how the government works. You know, when you put things in an application and say we're going to prioritize organizations that do x. Those organizations do x. And that's how you get reform throughout the federal government. That's why the power of the executive is so strong. Because you can lead these agencies into the right direction. And that's what the president just did.

LEMON: So, Ja'Ron, again, I want to be mindful of the delay. So, sorry, I don't mean to be rude.

SMITH: Yes.

LEMON: So, you don't have to report your officer? It's -- it's not mandatory.

SMITH: The system that we're putting in place will encourage these institutions to do that. I mean, look, the president is taking action --

LEMON: OK.

SMITH: -- as far as legislation can go. You know, things may have to happen in Congress and the president is committed to that. But we think this is a good first step. And we also made recommendations to Congress to fund training. Training. To fund retention. To fund this co-responder program that we're talking about.

So, there's a lot more work to do. But in the meantime, we need action right now. And I think creating these eco-systems within these police departments is a great first step.

LEMON: I'm wondering if you think you because you keep mentioning the co-responder thing. but I want to move on and talk about the database. Is that a win for protestors? Because you hear the protesters out there, they have been calling for that. Many have been calling that in the so, quote, unquote, "defund the police" that they want co- responders and that would -- that's part of what they think would make police departments in the community work better together. Is this a win for the protesters?

SMITH: No. This is actually creating a system that's going to create better police community relationship. Instead of defunding the police we want to work with these police departments. We want to encourage police departments to hire from the communities they police.

Because the truth is that you have safety issues in certain communities. And so, we want to protect the community, protect the police officers and create that ecosystem that's going to lead to prosperity. Because with safety that you can bring on access to capital. You can get access to affordable education.

All these things are very holistic and that's what the president is about those holistic results.

LEMON: Yes. So, let's go back to the reporting and the database and so on and so forth. In the case of Officer Chauvin, he had 18 prior complaints against him but was still on the force.

So, I'm wondering if that -- you could get his background from his police department. And having, you know, that kind of database. I'm not sure what that does because police departments --

(CROSSTALK)

SMITH: This --

LEMON: -- police each police officer works in his --

SMITH: This database --

LEMON: Hang on, hang on. Let me finish. Each police department works in its own community. They're not like -- they're not part of a national law enforcement agency. Would that kind of officer be in this database?

SMITH: Well, here's the thing. What we want to do is use our power as the administration to incentivize the right behavior and put the right models in place. There is some accountability on local mayors and local police departments. But from a federal point of view this is how we encourage the right actions to happen. And we got the support of many police departments to do this.

So that's the big thing. You can't have these reforms without working with the police. And we have the support of every major police organization on board. So, if you want to see real change, no one hates bad cop more than a good cop. And many of those good cops want to do something to ensure that public safety is kept.

LEMON: OK. Let's move on. Chokeholds. Let me give you the language here for the chokeholds.

SMITH: Chokeholds.

LEMON: OK. The state or local law enforcement agencies use of force policies prohibit the use of chokeholds. A physical maneuver that restricts an individual's ability to breathe for the purposes of incapacitation. Except in those situation -- situations where the use of deadly force is allowed by law.

So, my question is similar. Why not ban them outright instead of the president qualifying it with except if the officer's life is at risk? I mean, police officers already use that argument now.

SMITH: So, the police officer is life is on the line and someone is trying to take his life he has to be able to -- or they have to be able to defend themselves. And this goes back to my earlier statement that we want to encourage police officers to do their job. And that's public safety. And that's dealing with the bad guys.

However, we also realize that in dealing with certain issues such as mental health and drug addiction or homelessness maybe a social service provider maybe the best thing for it. And so, what we're trying to do is create more, better, stronger higher standard police forces that deal with the real issues of the community. And that's public safety. And we do that by bringing the community together with the police. Not the opposite.

LEMON: OK. Listen, I want to continue on this chokehold thing. But it sounds like what you're doing is you don't offer someone who is breaking the law money to incentivize them to not break the law. Right?

[22:25:01]

It sounds like that's what you're doing with --

(CROSSTALK)

SMITH: No, that's not --

LEMON: -- police officers.

SMITH: That's not how it works. What I'm telling you is that police officers have consensus around the chokehold. Everyone believes that the chokehold --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: So, if you offer them more money -- no, no, listen, listen. If you're offering them more money to do their job -- do you understand what I'm saying?

SMITH: No. What we're saying --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: you're saying that they will do a better job if you give them more money.

SMITH: We're going to -- we're going to reward the police departments that get accreditation. That means that they have the training. They have the use of force standards. They have the community relationships. Those police departments that are accredited will be a priority. Those police departments that register their bad cops into the system will be rewarded with funding. That's what we're saying.

LEMON: OK. Let's move -- let's continue to talk about chokeholds. Because this is how the president talked about chokeholds a few days ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think the concept of chokeholds sounds so innocent, so perfect. And then you realize if it's a one on one. No, if it's two on one that's a little bit of a different story depending, depending on the toughness and strength. You know we're talking about toughness and strength. We are talking there's a physical thing here also. But if a police officer is in a bad scuffle and he's got somebody --

(CROSSTALK) HARRIS FAULKNER, HOST, FOX NEWS: If it's a one on one fight for the life?

TRUMP: Yes. That does happen. And that does happen too. So, you have to be careful. With that being said, it would be, I think a very good thing that generally speaking it should be ended.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So innocent and so perfect. I mean, that doesn't sound like somebody inclined to actually ban chokeholds. So, explain how this order works. Is it more about incentivizing departments to voluntary agree to use of force guidelines and not an actual ban again?

SMITH: What we're seeing in our executive order, Don, is right there. That we think that certain standards should be set by all police departments. And that's why they should get accredited.

When you look at Flint or Minneapolis those police departments haven't updated their use of force policies for years. For 40 years. And what we're trying to do is incentivize all of them to set a standard. And that standard includes chokeholds unless met with deadly force.

This is really common sense. You know, police officers are out there to do a job and protect our community. And then that same sense we're going to -- we want the best and the brightest policemen out there and follow the standard. And that standard says only use the use of force for chokeholds when, when your life is on the line.

It's the same with shooting or pulling out a gun. Those standards are the same thing. You know, a lethal force met with lethal force.

LEMON: Why does the president falsely claim the Obama administration didn't try anything on policing? That's false.

SMITH: Because out of -- out of 18,000 police departments only 15 adopted his plan. And that's the problem. We have a a -- we have a 800 person --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But he's saying they didn't -- he's saying they didn't try anything. They didn't -- they didn't do anything. Because he had a task force in 21st century policing. He had restrictions on military equipment transfer to police. His Justice Department use consent decrees to help overhaul local police departments.

And then the Trump's first A.G., Jeff Sessions, curved many of those things. So, to say that the administration didn't try to do anything or didn't do anything on this issue is simply false. Why would the president say that?

SMITH: He did something but it made our community less safe. It put more cops off the beat. It put more cops from putting into areas of Baltimore and Chicago where the real violence is. It's because it was too much liability on the line for their life. And we got to protect the cops too. They're doing a job that you

wouldn't do and I wouldn't do, Don. And then we have to have a practical way of doing these things. You know, the thing is, it isn't always about the issue of peaceful protest. It's also about safety and security. That's what we have in our police.

And so, we're trying to thread the needle. And that's why we didn't write this executive order through the president's leadership just for police. We brought in the families. And so, I think we have a common sense approach that actually works.

And unfortunately, what President Obama's executive order did was get more police out of the communities that need them most and then it also only got like 15 police departments to adopt the standards. You know why? Because they didn't work with police. And so, the president is working with police because that's how we get reform done.

LEMON: Well, Ja'Ron, thank you. You accept the invitation to come on this show and you even offer yourself up.

SMITH: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: That doesn't happen very often with the administration, so we appreciate that and we welcome you back any time.

SMITH: Thank you.

LEMON: And thank you for taking tough questions. We really appreciate it. Be well.

SMITH: Thank you, sir. Many blessings to you, Don.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: And you heard Ja'Ron Smith talking about families who met with President Trump today. Ahmaud Arbery's mother was there. She'll tell me about it, next.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: President Trump met privately today with family members of victims of police and racial violence. Joining me now two people who were at the White House meeting. Wanda Cooper, she is the mother of Ahmaud Arbery. And Lee Merritt, he is civil rights attorney representing Ahmaud Arbery's family. And other families who also met with the president. Good evening to both of you. Thank you so much for joining. Mrs. Cooper I want to start with you. You met with the president today. What was that like? Tell us about your visit.

WANDA COOPER, AHMAUD ARBERY'S MOTHER: The meeting it went well. I didn't really have a lot of high expectations about the meeting. I wanted to learn more about his executive order. He explained it. And after explaining it, he -- I don't think that order would actually have an influence on my son's case. LEMON: That's is what I'm going to ask you. What did you think about

it? Does it do enough you think?

COOPER: No. I don't think that order actually addresses anything that concerns Ahmaud's case at all.

LEMON: Lee, let's talk more here, because there were a number of other families there. How did the executive order go over with them?

[22:35:00]

LEE MERRITT, ATTORNEY FOR FAMILY OF AHMAUD ARBERY: You know, we spent a lot of time talking about the other story -- the other family's cases. Of some that were new to the White House. The first time the president I'm sure has ever heard of them. And the executive order didn't have any provisions that really would have impacted those cases significantly.

It did -- Mr. Trump and the Attorney General and the people present did promise these families and independent federal investigation into their case. If there was some policy where all families got federal investigations into the case. I think that would have been a more powerful statement in the executive order.

LEMON: Lee, you know, your visit was somewhat controversial. Because you received a lot of backlash for going to the White House today from people who are concerned that the White House is doing this executive order because it allows them to look attentive to the issue while actually doing relatively little. What's your response to people who say that it was wrong -- it was the wrong thing to do?

MERRITT: My concern is being able to serve the family of Wanda Cooper, Jones and all of the other families that were represented there. And independent federal investigation into their case like the one that is occurring right now in South Georgia with the DOJ looking into the actions of George Barnhill. The district attorney who was involved in denying this family justice.

Those are important things. And you know, for a while there were a run of celebrities who are introducing a prison reform to the White House. What they found was it was effective. This president was impacted by face to face meetings typically with celebrities. And we encourage that. We don't think that that's good presidential policy but, you know, what they say, when in Rome.

LEMON: Listen. I know that many families you represent have been unable to recover damages because of qualified immunity for police officers. The Trump administration isn't committed to addressing that issue. Can there be real reform without that?

MERRITT: I think qualified immunity is an absolute essential to any comprehensive reform that comes out of either the White House or the Congress. That is something that we did speak to the president about. We did explain to him in terms we believe that he could understand why qualified immunity was denying families justice, including first responders. We have one family there, Maggie Brooks, her father was a fire chief.

A police officer wants to shoot a dog and end up shooting her instead. Qualified immunity is an absolute bar to her family recovering anything. So, we one thing for the president to just smile in, that family's face, but still support qualified immunity which would deny that family justice.

LEMON: Ms. Cooper, listen. I know that today must have been so emotional for you to spend it with all of these families who share the same devastating kind of loss. Was there any comfort in that for you?

COOPER: Yes, it was. Being around other mothers that experience the same pain that I experience, was good for the soul. I mean, it really helped. To know that I'm not in this alone. The pain I feel is shared with lots of moms who lost their sons to this type of tragedy.

LEMON: I'm sure you don't know it because you are doing this interview moments ago, Ms. Cooper. The president tweeted this about you and the meeting today. He said, a great woman. Her son is looking down from heaven and is very proud of his wonderful, loving mom. I guess we know that does he mention Mrs. Cooper in that? OK, so, it's a retweet of an Ivanka Trump tweet which is about you. So, talk to me about that.

MERRITT: I can say she did meet Ivanka Trump. And that there was a point of contentious point in the meeting where Mr. Trump said, what he said before that Ahmaud Arbery looked like a good kid. And Wanda took the time and said, you know, it's because he was a good person. And even if he weren't a good person he still be entitled to justice. And it was a sobering moment for the White House to say, you are dealing with somebody who actually cares about this issue and just empty words aren't going to do.

LEMON: Wanda, I want to hear what you have to say about that the president tweeting. And those word that he retweeted from his daughter.

COOPER: Coming from Mr. Trump, I'm hoping that he gathered that Ahmaud was loved and not only Ahmaud was love, but all the lost young men that we have lost due to this type of tragic events they were loved as well. And those other sons they had caring mothers like myself. I'm glad that he noticed that I was there. I was really attentive, because I wanted answers. Because I wanted him to hear my voice.

[22:40:03]

LEMON: Do you think he had heard you?

COOPER: I think he heard me.

LEMON: OK. Wanda Cooper, Lee Merritt, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate you joining us. We will see you soon.

MERRITT: Thank you.

LEMON: A new study shows face masks are vital to stopping the spread of coronavirus. So, why is most of the White House not wearing them? Doctor Sanjay Gupta tells us why they should -- they should be wearing them. He's after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So coronavirus cases are skyrocketing across the U.S. As multiple states report record high for daily new cases. That as the Trump administration is down playing the severity of the spread. Let's discuss now with our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. I'm so glad, thank you for staying up late. It's indeed an honor to have you on, Sanjay.

[22:45:04]

And it's an important topic. Because more examples today of leadership not wearing masks. The vice president stopping in an Iowa diner filled with people. Most not wearing masks. Including the vice president. And President Trump maskless at his Rose Garden event along with many other officials.

Dr. Gupta, coronavirus cases are skyrockets again. And they are setting a dangerous example. Are they?

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think no question. I mean, Vice President Pence is the head of the coronavirus task force. And this task force is the one that is making these recommendations along with the CDC on wearing masks. He's the head of that organization. I mean, it makes no sense. Especially now in the five and a half months into this, Don. We have real data on the effectiveness.

The study just came out in Health Affairs, you may have seen it, over five week period between April and May. And states that required masks were mandatory. 450,000 infections may have been prevented. By masks. I mean, this isn't some magic therapeutic or a vaccine or any of those things that we do need and hopefully will get. Its masks. Something that's within all of our control.

So, yes, he should absolutely be wearing a mask. And keep in mind, Don, people say well, you know, I'm good, I'll take the risk. It's not about the person -- you're not taking the risk. You're potentially putting the virus into the environment. The mask is to protect those around you. So, it's not a risk thing for you. It's a risk thing for everyone around you.

LEMON: Right. It's about having really a common courtesy or decency for other people, right?

GUPTA: Yes.

LEMON: It's not that are going to give it to you. So, you're going to give it to them possibly. So, you know, it took weeks for the CDC to change its guidelines on masks, only advising public face coverings for everyone that was in early April. Remember in the beginning they are like, you don't need to do --- wear masks, it may do harm than good and so on and so forth. Did that they delay create a lot of confusion? GUPTA: Yes. It did. And I think it's that some of that confusion has

lingered, Don. You know, I think, I'm glad you raised this point, because in the beginning you're right the CDC was not recommending masks and there was two reasons. One is they wanted to save the mask for healthcare workers.

LEMON: Right.

GUPTA: But that issue aside there wasn't the clear evidence initially of asymptomatic transmission. So, they weren't saying look, they said, if you have symptoms stay home. That's what you should do. They didn't think about this idea at that point, there wasn't the clear evidence that even if you don't have symptoms, you could still be spreading the virus.

Then you run into a situation where people say, hey, look, I feel fine I'm good to go. I go out and about. But then they say, you could still be spreading therefore you need to wear the mask. So, you're right. The guidelines and recommendations sort of evolved a bit. But now they're clear. And they are very clear, not only in terms of 450,000 number that I gave you.

But a question I get all the time, Don is, let's say I'm standing next to you. We were then six feet of each other. I have the virus, you don't. What's the likelihood I give you the virus, right? That's the fundamental question. You can show these numbers here that the chance of spread in someone who has the virus to someone who doesn't without a mask, 17.4 percent. OK.

LEMON: Wow.

GUPTA: What about if you wear a mask? 3.1 percent. It's not perfect. But that's, you know, nearly a six fold decrease in the likelihood of transmission. That makes a huge difference when you're trying to curve a pandemic. That's why certain countries are measuring their death tolls in the hundreds. Not the thousands. Not the hundreds of thousands like we are, but in the hundreds. Masks, you know, they can make a big difference.

LEMON: So, we had been talking about these super-spreader events. The people who are protesting at state houses because they want the economy open back up. The protestors who had been out on the streets concerns about that as well. People at churches and so on. The people who have gone to bars and all these things since the reopening started.

But then we have the president's rally coming up and they're not required to wear masks. Dr. Gupta and I will talk about that after the break.

GUPTA: OK.

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[22:50:00] LEMON: So, we have been talking about coronavirus deaths in the U.S.

approaching 117,000. Back now with Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Let's continue Doctor. Lawyers in -- excuse me, a Tulsa judge denying a lawsuit to stop the president's rally there. We know masks will not be required. How big is that risk?

GUPTA: This is, you know, the worst-case scenario, Don. I mean, I don't mean to speak in such stark terms but if you think about gatherings of people right now at this time in our history with a global pandemic, with a virus that circumnavigating the globe, here they are, lowest to highest risk. Lowest risk could be a virtual event that make sense. You're at home, you're doing this virtually.

The highest risk, large indoor event, attendees coming from different places then going back to their communities, possibly carrying the virus, difficult to practice physical distancing here. They want to fill these arenas to capacity. You are not going to get physical distancing in an environment where people are shouting, dispelling a lot of virus into the air. Not requiring to wear masks.

As you mentioned, common public areas. This is the things, you will look back on this a year from now, maybe a month from now and say I can't believe we did that. That is the exact opposite thing you should be doing in the middle of a pandemic. So, there is a real concern here from something like this.

A super spreader event, Don, is not necessarily an individual, anybody could be a super spreader. You could. I could. It's the right person in the wrong place at the wrong time. This the wrong place, wrong time. In Tulsa, we know the virus is spreading, the numbers had gone up, one-fifth of our cases had been just this past week. And now you are going to do this in the middle of what is the hotbed of viral exposure. It is the wrong thing to do.

LEMON: And when you put up, those are the CDC guidelines, right that this administration is not following just like the guidelines masks as well.

GUPTA: That's right. With the mask.

LEMON: All right.

GUPTA: Exactly.

[22:55:07]

LEMON: We have 18 states that are showing upward trends in cases, doctor. Texas, Florida, Arizona all reported record highs for daily cases just today. How concerning is that?

GUPTA: These numbers are concerning. And there's two points I want to make. One is that, obviously as we started to reopen we knew that there was going to be an increase in numbers. That goes without saying, there's a contagious virus out there. More people out in about, there's going to be more people that will get infected. The question is now is, what are we willing to tolerate? Really this

is almost an existential question for the country at this point, Don. What are we willing to tolerate? 600 people died in the last 24 hours. More people died in the last 24 hours than it have died in entire pandemics in other countries. What are we willing to tolerate in this country.

The second thing is, people keep saying, look, you test more, you are going to find more cases. That is true, but in some of these states that we are talking about, the number of cases has way outpaced the testing. Testing has gone down in Oklahoma and the rate of cases has gone up in Oklahoma. That's not what you want to be seeing.

You know, in a lot of these places hospitalizations are going up. So, you are not just finding people who have the virus. These are people who are getting sick and going into hospitals. That's not just a reflection of increase testing. That's actual virus out there getting people sick. So, you know, it's a concern and this is not the position we want to be in right now.

LEMON: Doctor, thank you. Before I go, I have to say, I am enjoying your sesame street town halls. I have no kids, but I enjoy it. And the bow tie.

GUPTA: It could be a career ender right here.

LEMON: Thank you, doctor. I enjoy it, so keep it up. That's great. Thank you so much, we will see you next time.

GUPTA: You got it, thanks. Thanks for having me.

LEMON: We will be right back.

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