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Don Lemon Tonight

Three Governors Mandate Travel Restrictions; Mayor Steve Adler Of Austin And Mayor Ron Nirenberg Of San Antonio Are Interviewed About The Spike Of Coronavirus In Their State; Justice Handed To Ahmaud Arbery's Family; NASCAR Driver Bubba Wallace Facing Backlash For Some Of The Things He Said On CNN Interview; Race In America: What Needs To Happen In America To End Systemic Racism? Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired June 24, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Also, the governors of New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut joining together today issuing a travel advisory requiring people visiting from states that are now coronavirus hot spots to quarantine for 14 days.

Let's discuss now. CNN's White House Correspondent, John Harwood joins us. Dan Rather, he is the president and CEO of News and Guts and host of The Big Interview on Access TV. Good evening to both of you, gentlemen.

Dan, I'm going to start with you because Florida, Texas, California reporting -- all reporting record-high cases, hospitalizations are surging. This virus is spreading across the U.S. And it's just like we're going to let it happen. Where's the leadership, Dan?

DAN RATHER, PRESIDENT & CEO, NEWS AND GUTS: Well, that is the question, where's the leadership? And the answer so far is pretty much nowhere. You know, Don, we've had a lot of crises in our nation's history we've had to endure in my lifetime. There have been times where even the existence of the United States was in question.

The start of World War II. Some moments during the Cold War. But we've never in our history had a crisis situation in which the leadership just shrugged their shoulders and in effect became MIAs, missing in action, or more brutally put, the president and his Republican enablers have pretty much cut and run in the face of this adversary, this terrible virus.

We've never had anything quite like this in the history. Leadership somewhere that persuades the public how dire the situation is and inspires our fellow Americans to do what we need to do.

This is the reality right now. This thing is not going away. It's surging, it's spiking in many places in the country. That's the reality. We need to be listening to the scientists and the doctors, not to the politicians, because as I mentioned, in terms of the top leadership in the federal government and many states, the leadership is just cut and run. LEMON: John, I've got to talk to you about this because we are just

learning tonight dozens of Secret Service agents will be quarantined after Trump's Tulsa rally. What do you know about that? What can you tell us?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know that there were eight advanced people who tested positive for the coronavirus and two Secret Service agents involved in that rally. Naturally those agents come in contact with a lot of other people, and so out of respect for what public health officials call for, people who have been in contact with those infected agents are going to be quarantined.

So, it just illustrates the breadth of the problem. But just to add on to the point you were discussing with Dan, I do think that at the state level we are starting to see some reaction, not just from Gavin Newsom, the Democratic governor of California, who is now -- who has required mask wearing statewide, some counties or localities are saying we're not going to enforce that. He's saying we may withhold state funds from you.

In Arizona, Doug Ducey, the governor, has permitted local jurisdictions to enact mask wearing mandates. Governor Greg Abbott in Texas has done the same. We've seen the senators from Florida advocate mask wearing as a means that the public should adopt, even though Ron DeSantis, the governor, won't require it.

Certainly -- I -- especially in these sunbelt states that were not hit so hard before. It's one thing to take the lead from the president and do as little as possible when you don't have many cases, but now that they are confronting cases, we're getting a different tone from some of those people.

Greg Abbott in Texas saying -- telling people to stay home. So, there is some leadership. It's more at the state level. You've got a federal bureaucracy behind the president. Even though the president is trying to move on, you still have Anthony Fauci and people in the federal apparatus who are trying to ramp up testing as they told Congress yesterday. So, it's not altogether absent, it's just absent from the White House.

LEMON: Dan, I want to bring you back in because all of these Secret Service agents now need to quarantine because the president wanted a packed stadium. He didn't even get it.

RATHER: I'm sorry, Don. I didn't understand the question. I beg your pardon.

LEMON: All these Secret Service agents having to self-quarantine just because the president wanted a packed stadium. He didn't even get the packed stadium and now these Secret Service agents are having to self- quarantine out of his, quite frankly, selfishness.

RATHER: Well, you can imagine what Secret Service agents when they're talking among themselves are saying about that. But this is just one -- one part of what we're discussing. That President Trump -- you have to believe, you want to believe, you want to believe, that he cares, at least somewhere deep down within himself he cares.

[23:04:55]

But by his actions and his words, time after time, whether it's Secret Service agents and what they have to go through or people that he's invited into the hall, it's all about him and his re-election. It's such a deep dividing problem that for the life of me I can't understand how President Trump this late in the game isn't saying to himself, I have to step forward. I have to start doing things differently. But I see no signs that that's about to happen.

LEMON: So, John, you know, Dan just mentioned his re-election. So, let's talk about, you know, pure politics here because multiple polls are showing that Biden has a double-digit lead over Trump. And top Republicans tell CNN that they're concerned. I'm wondering if they're telling the president to take a different tact. What are you hearing?

HARWOOD: Well, they are -- they are telling the president to take a different tone. I think it's a little bit fruitless for a couple of reasons. First of all, those Republicans stood by and watched the president run free for the last three years without much complaint from them.

And secondly, because the president himself is not inclined to change. We know that. He acts the same way repeatedly, over and over and over. Divisive rhetoric. Focused on himself.

So, they do, though, register the fact that he's way behind and Republican control of the Senate is in deep trouble. You've got a whole bunch of Republican-held seats that are now toss-ups. Just one Democratic seat that looks in serious danger.

And so, the problems for Donald Trump are the problems for Republican senators as well. And so, you're going to begin to hear them chide the president more, and when we get deeper into the campaign, we'll see whether they go further to distance themselves from him.

But the president -- 14 points down in this New York Times poll out today. Eight points down in a swing state poll in Wisconsin. It's not just national, it's in the key states. He is a significant underdog for re-election at this moment.

LEMON: John, Dan, thank you so much. I appreciate your time. See you, gentlemen, soon.

As I mentioned, Texas is reporting an all-time high of new coronavirus cases. Let's discuss now. Two Texas leaders here. Austin Mayor Steve Adler and San Antonio Mayor Ron Nirenberg. I'm so glad to have both of you on. Thank you so much. Good to see you.

Mayor Nirenberg, let's start with you, OK? We have more than --

(CROSSTALK)

MAYOR RON NIRENBERG (I), SAN ANTONIO, TX: Good evening, Don. LEMON: Good evening. We have more than 5,500 new cases reported in your state just today, breaking yesterday's record of 5,000 cases. More than 4,300 Texans now hospitalized with COVID-19. Why didn't Texas learn from Italy or from New York from other places that we have seen this virus?

NIRENBERG: You know, I think in many ways some of the leadership was drinking the Kool-Aid. A lot of the urban communities in Texas were doing an excellent job in containing the virus under local control. Where we had stay-at-home orders early. We were working very aggressively to contain the virus.

But as that went on and we got closer and closer to open the Texas economy, two things happened. We started opening in phases very quickly without the benefit of data to support the decisions that were being made and we heard a lot of mixed messages about things like mask wearing where, you know, masks were encouraged but the ability for local communities to enforce masks were stripped away from local governments.

Two weeks later we see a 500 percent increase in our hospitalizations, our ICUs, our ventilators and now we're looking at having to backtrack on some of these issues.

LEMON: Are your hospitals prepared for this?

NIRENBERG: You know, they have been. And we do have capacity in our hospitals, but the acceleration of these cases has us concerned because it's not just the number of cases, it's how fast they're rising. And we've been working very hard to maintain capacity, but if this acceleration continues unabated, we're going to find ourselves overwhelmed. We have to get a grip on this virus because right now it has a grip on Texas.

LEMON: Mayor Adler, I have to ask you the same thing. Are your hospitals prepared?

MAYOR STEVE ADLER (D), AUSTIN, TX: You know, if we continue on the same trajectory that we're on right now, our hospitals, we think, are going to get overwhelmed by mid-July. You know, it's coming -- it's coming really, really quickly.

We're going to have to do something to change behaviors in the community or we're going to face the difficult choice of turning around what we have done here in terms of opening up the economy. The numbers are just growing so geometrically. Our doubling time got to the place where it was over 40 days and now, we're down to 16-day doubling and we're headed south.

LEMON: You know, Mayor Adler, Texas was one of the first states to reopen. Do you -- I mean, honestly, do you think the surge in cases could have been prevented if the governor, if Governor Abbott wasn't so quick to loosen restrictions. Because now he's saying, you know, stay at home. OK. But it's a little late for that.

[23:10:06] ADLER: Well, I'm hoping it's not too late for that, but certainly you're right, you know. I think the governor did two things that he should have done differently. The first is that he opened too many phases in a row without waiting to see what the data was with respect to each phase so that we could gauge what was happening when we reopened.

And second, when you reopen the economy, it has to be coupled with the community wearing -- wearing face coverings religiously. And maintaining that six-foot distancing. You can't just open the economy and pretend like the virus has gone away. And people in my community were getting mixed messages.

The governor, to his credit, was telling everybody they should wear face coverings, they should wear face masks, but yet he took away from cities the ability to be able to mandate it and enforce it, which is what -- which we had been doing and it was working well.

So, I think it's those two things. You have to open -- when you open the economy, you have to do it slowly and it has to be associated with those mitigation efforts, and we did not do that.

LEMON: All right. Since we're on the subject of Governor Abbott, this is what he said about masks earlier today. Don't have it? OK. Well, we don't have it. He said earlier that everyone should be wearing -- OK, now we have it. All right. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R-TX): It would have been one thing to talk about masks in the middle part of May when it looks like all the trends are going down. It's a different thing talking about masks today in the middle part of June with all of the numbers going up. As a result, you are seeing myself both wear a mask and talk about masks more than I did in the middle part of May.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, Mayor Nirenberg, back in April Abbott signed an executive order overriding local mandates to enforce penalties for not wearing a mask. You wear masks so the virus doesn't spread.

NIRENBERG: Right.

LEMON: That's kind of the whole point. Did the governor somehow miss that?

NIRENBERG: You know, you don't cut off your parachute just as soon as you slow your descent. The biggest tool we have available to us to fight this pandemic is public trust. So, you've seen all the cities in Texas put out our public health professionals out front issuing guidance like physical distancing and wearing masks.

And just when we start to have control of this virus and start to see the cases decline, that's not the time to let the foot off the gas with these measures. It's the time to double down and make sure that we can actually start to see the effects of that -- of that behavior as we begin to open things up.

And then once we start opening things up and we have data to support the good decisions that people are making, only then do you go through the successive stages. We've gone too fast. We have to start working much harder to reinforce good behaviors, and that's made more difficult by the politicization of all of these things.

LEMON: Yes. And speaking of, listen, Mayor Adler, Texas is a red state. President Trump refuses to wear a mask. Keeps claiming the virus is going away. Do you think -- do you think this president's attitude towards this pandemic has had an impact on Texans?

ADLER: There's -- there's absolutely no question about that. You know, with the messaging coming from Washington is that the virus is over. That you shouldn't be wearing masks. That it's turning it into kind of a show of strength to not be wearing a mask. That is exactly the wrong message.

You know, to his credit here in Texas, at least Governor Abbott is telling everybody they should wear masks. He's let now cities enforce that, but even the messaging coming from our state leadership would be stronger if our governor was mandating masks as well. So, he's doing better, but he's not helping with the messaging, but the messaging coming from Washington is so confusing and so disingenuous it is having a real impact here.

LEMON: Mayors, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Be safe. Please come back and update us.

So, next, a case that we have been following for you for months. One that outraged this country. Major new developments tonight in the Ahmaud Arbery case and his family is here to bring us up to speed on it.

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LEMON: Grand jury in Georgia has indicted three men on malice and felony murder charges in the killing of Ahmaud Arbery. He's the 25- year-old unarmed African-American man who was chased down and shot to death while jogging. That was back in February.

Joining me now is Marcus Arbery, Ahmaud's father, and also Benjamin Crump, Mr. Arbery's attorney. Thank you so much for joining us. So, Ben, we're waiting on Marcus. He had a little technical issue. So, I'm glad you could join us. So, we hope that he would be able to join us in just moments when we get that -- when we get that technical issue worked out.

BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR ARBERY'S FAMILY: Sure.

LEMON: Ben, talk to me about this indictment. Nine counts charging the men with malice and felony murder charges, as well as aggravated assault, false imprisonment and criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment. Are you satisfied with these charges, Ben? CRUMP: The family is satisfied, Don. It was a very important step. The

grand jury sent a loud and clear message that you cannot lynch a black man in 2020 in broad daylight and think that people won't hold you accountable. So, this is an important step today, Don Lemon.

LEMON: Ben, the murder charges, if found guilty, carry life in prison, possibly with no parole, and possibly even the death penalty. What kind of punishment do you think this family wants, if that verdict is guilty?

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CRUMP: Well, I think Mr. Arbery has went on record saying that he wants them to spend the rest of their life in prison for taking their -- his son because him and Wanda, Ahmaud's mother, will never, ever get to see him again.

They will never, (Technical difficulty). He wants them to reflect for the rest of their lives. He was compassionate enough, Don, to say that he was not seeking the death penalty, but he thought they should spend every waking day of their life in prison thinking about how they killed his child.

LEMON: What about federal charges, Ben? Do you think there's more to come here?

CRUMP: Well, that is the hope, and that is the interesting thing because we've always said this was a hate crime, Don. That the only reason that they profiled, pursued and chased him on that video was because the color of his skin. White people went in that house looking around and nobody chased them or thought they were doing anything criminal.

It was because he was a black man and that is why we think the federal government should send the message just like Joyette Holmes and the Cobb County D.A. did with this grand jury. Let's send a message to America that it's not acceptable to kill people just because of their race and be (Technical difficulty).

LEMON: What about Roddie Bryan? His family and attorney maintain that he was just a witness who filmed it. What do you think of the charges he's facing?

CRUMP: Well, you know, Don, as attorney Merritt, attorney Stewart, our legal team, we think that when you look at the video, just based on the objective evidence, Don, you see that he was part of this lynch mob. Regardless of what he's trying to say now, that everybody has caught them red-handed. And you cannot distance yourself from being the person who helped cuts off Ahmaud as he's running for his life.

And so I think it is appropriate that he, even though he didn't pull a trigger, he was aiding and abetting, and when you are part of a robbery at a convenience store that happens to young people of color all the time and you're just driving the car, you are charged with felony murder. So, he should be charged exactly how they would charge any of our

people in our community. It's about equal justice under the law in the United States of America.

LEMON: I want to ask you about another case, Ben, because you're also working with the family of Joel Acevedo. Joel Acevedo died after allegedly being put in a chokehold for almost 10 minutes by an off- duty Milwaukee police officer. The officer has been suspended, facing reckless homicide charges. And you were at the court house today, for a rally today. What more are you looking to have happened with this case?

CRUMP: Yes, Don, I'm working for attorney (Inaudible) Lamar on behalf of Joel Acevedo who was literally strangled to death by an off-duty police officer. We all know George Floyd was suffocated by the knee on the neck for eight minutes and 46 seconds, where this young Latino citizen was strangled by this police officer for 10 minutes.

And based on the 911 tape and the police body cam video that has not been made public, it evidence that he literally choked this kid to death. And so, they had a bond reduction hearing and we asked the state attorney to increase the bond. He only had a $50,000 bond. And they did not do it.

And we argued that it was a change in circumstance, Don. He was living when they first set the bond at $50,000. Six days later he died. And we thought that was a significant circumstance to say that this young man's life mattered.

Joel Acevedo's life mattered, but they didn't do that. So, the protesters had a rally outside the courthouse saying we demand those videos be released, the 911 tape be released, just like in Ahmaud Arbery. Once we, the people, see that video and see him being choked we're going to see it's just as bad as George Floyd and all those police officers should be arrested.

LEMON: I want you to stand by, Ben, because we have Marcus on the phone. Marcus Arbery, who is Ahmaud Arbery's father.

CRUMP: Yes, sir.

LEMON: Because of the technical difficulties. Marcus, thank you for joining us on the phone. I apologize for the technical difficulties. You know it happens. It's technology.

So, I want to ask you, it has been four months since your son was chased, shot and killed. In just 10 minutes a grand jury came back with these three indictments tonight. Are you confident that there will be justice for Ahmaud?

MARCUS ARBERY, AHMAUD ARBERY'S FATHER: Yes, sir. Things are looking and looking really good. My son was lynched. And I am not going to be satisfied until I hear a guilty verdict.

LEMON: If there is a guilty verdict, you have said that you don't want -- you don't want the death penalty, you want life in prison. Why is that?

[23:25:08]

ARBERY: Because I just want them to feel what they gave to my son and I want them to see it every day. I just don't ever want to see them on the streets again because my son is gone and he's not coming back, so what they is they need to see what they done and they need to see it every day they wake up. And realize what wrong they did and they got to answer to God for it. Because I know they're going to hell for it because God don't -- God don't uphold stuff like that.

LEMON: Well, Marcus Arbery, thank you. Benjamin Crump, thank you as well. We appreciate it. Keep us updated on this case. You guys be safe and take care. Thank you.

CRUMP: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Bubba Wallace telling me he is getting a lot of flak after the FBI learned that a noose hanging in his team garage had been there since last year. But should NASCAR be doing more to defend him?

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: NASCAR driver Bubba Wallace getting some backlash for some of the things that he said on this show last night after the FBI concluded that he was not the victim of a hate crime and that a noose found hanging in his team garage had been there since last year, before he was assigned to that stall.

Let's discuss now, L.Z. Granderson is here, a columnist for The Los Angeles Times. He is also an ESPN radio host and a friend. Thank you, L.Z., for joining us. I appreciate it. It is good to see you again.

L.Z. GRANDERSON, CNN OPINION WRITER, COLUMNIST FOR THE LOS ANGELES TIMES, ESPN RADIO HOST: Of course.

LEMON: Let's talk about this. So, Bubba Wallace came on this show last night. He is getting a lot of hate. This is what he told me, and then we'll discuss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUBBA WALLACE, NASCAR DRIVER: I'm pissed. I'm mad because people are trying to test my character and the person that I am and my integrity. And they're not stealing that away from me, but they're just trying to test that. Now, the allegations of being a hoax will break me or tear me down. Will it piss me off? Absolutely.

But that only fuels the competitive drive in me to shut everybody up, to get back out on the racetrack next week in Pocono, and showcase what I can do behind the wheel under tremendous amounts of BS, whatever it is you want to say. It won't break me. It won't tear me down. Again, I will still stand proud of where I'm at.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So NASCAR is the one that told Bubba about the noose. They went to him. The backlash Bubba is getting, is it unwarranted?

GRANDERSON: Well, of course it is. But there are individuals in this country that were waiting for a moment like this so they could denounce him and attack his character. That's the best way for us to forget about what he's trying to push for, which is to remove the confederacy out of his sport. So they were waiting for a moment like this.

But, listen, Don, as you know, NASCAR was the one responsible for both contacting the FBI and letting the public know of its findings. All Bubba Wallace was doing was responding to what he thought was a thinly veiled threat against his life. And anyone who thinks that he was doing anything other than responding to a thinly veiled threat against his life is just someone who is looking for a reason to denounce him anyway.

LEMON: Mm-hmm. Well, let me ask you this, because NASCAR did the right thing by immediately calling for an investigation. But I'm wondering, should they do more to step up now and to defend Bubba, because we've been asking them to come on this show for a while. They have been telling us they're appreciative of the coverage.

But so far, Bubba Wallace is the only one out there, out front, who is defending himself, who is talking, and who is really taking the flack. Should they be doing more to be out front in this instead of just releasing statements?

GRANDERSON: Well, I believe there are two entities when you talk about NASCAR that are of concern. Number one is the part you're talking about, the executive branch, the president, people in charge, people in charge of marketing, et cetera. There is a route they need to go with. But I want to start with the second half of NASCAR, and that's the other drivers, the owners of teams, et cetera.

This man is out here by himself. And he needs you to be vocal. And I understand that what you need to be vocal about may make you uncomfortable because either you don't see the confederate flag as a problem or you're afraid it may impact your bottom line.

But the reality is that what you were doing on Monday was standing up because you thought his life was threatened with a noose. You weren't supporting in a big visual way the initial cause, which is removing that confederate flag that was circling your racetrack and being flown overhead.

That was the racist response to his request and the NASCAR notion of removing the flag. So in order to step up, I would like to see more people step up on the real argument, which is about the confederate flag and the treason and the racism it represents as opposed to what's going on with the noose.

Now, when it comes to the noose and what the executive aspect of the NASCAR organization can do, is that they can reiterate that it was them who called the FBI, that all Bubba Wallace was doing, he wasn't, you know, crying wolf or anything like that, the ridiculous things I've seen on Twitter. He was simply responding, what I thought was intelligently, to what was a threat against his life.

And remember this, Don. This is Talladega, Alabama, the last state with a documented lynching, a state that had two nooses on a college campus less than two years ago.

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GRANDERSON: A state whose own governor performed in blackface and had to apologize for it last year. It was while she was in college. This is the Alabama we're talking about where that noose was found in the garage. So it's perfectly reasonable for NASCAR to think that maybe this was a hate crime, and it certainly was perfectly reasonable for Bubba Wallace to be concerned about it.

LEMON: We will leave it there. L.Z., thank you, sir. I appreciate you coming on. I just want to make sure that you know about my new podcast where we talk about these sometimes uncomfortable conversations, these conversations that you -- we need to have in this country right now. The hard ones about being black in America, about racism, about people looking to make excuses for racism, and to blame people like Bubba Wallace for something that was out of their control.

You know who you are. You're the ones who should be tuning in to my podcast. Get it on Apple podcasts or your favorite podcasts. Silence is Not an Option."

Confederate statues toppled. Racist images removed. The country is transforming. But will it be enough? That's next.

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[23:40:00]

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LEMON: Outrage at the killing of George Floyd after a police officer kneeled on his neck, leading a lot of Americans to think very seriously about systemic racism and police brutality against people of color. Confederate statues are being removed. The question is, is that enough? What really needs to happen in America going forward?

Tomorrow, I'm going to have another episode of my podcast, "Silence is Not an Option," that will explore some of these issues. And tonight, I just want to bring in CNN political commentator David Swerdlick to talk about all of this.

David, thank you so much. I've been wanting to speak to you all day about this. I really appreciate you joining us. A speaker at President Trump's event in Arizona is getting backlash for saying this. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REAGAN ESCUDE, TURNING POINT USA AMBASSADOR: Aunt Jemima was cancelled. And if you didn't know, Nancy Green, the original, first Aunt Jemima, she was a picture of the American dream. She was a freed slave who went on to be the face of the pancake syrup that we love and have in our pantries today. She fought for equality. And now, the leftist mob is trying to erase her legacy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, CNN reports, David, there is no historical evidence that Nancy Green was ever made wealthy in this partnership despite the company using her likeliness -- her likeness, I should say. But, really, the American dream, her likeness was used to perpetuate a mammy stereotype?

DAVID SWERDLICK, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, Don. There are so many problems with this. Look, first of all, the president was speaking to a bunch of young people, so you had a young person sent out there to make this point about cancel culture and political correctness, and she wound up, you know, being sort of used by the Trump campaign in this capacity.

Yes, there are some reporting out there that the Green family and the Richard family don't -- aren't necessarily in favor of having their relatives, at least as reported, removed from these bottles. But as you say, it's not clear that they were making riches from this.

And more importantly, the side that's not presented there is that Quaker Oats, whether it's too late or just in time or however you want to look at it, is trying to be responsive to the moment.

Of course, they're a corporation and their interest is the bottom line, but if a corporation is trying to be responsive to the moment, the issue really isn't as that young woman presented it, as cancelling the legacy of Nancy Green. It's just -- it's just -- it's a bridge past a bridge too far.

LEMON: It is ridiculousness is what it is.

SWERDLICK: Yeah.

LEMON: So, listen, I'm going to be talking about this tomorrow. This is one of the examples that I discussed in my podcast. But Turner Classic Movies looked at the 1934 movie "Imitation of Life" for their race in Hollywood series.

It's about a white woman and a black woman -- black woman who works for her makes delicious pancakes. The white woman steals that recipe, forms a company, makes a ton of money, and gives the black woman, Delilah, 20 percent of that company that really should be all hers. Delilah is portrayed as grateful but this is how a story and David Bogle explains it.

SWERDLICK: Sure.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD BOGLE, FILM HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR: It's a great sequence. It's at the end of the party, that Claudette Colbert, the white woman, has even announced she has made all this money off this pancake recipe. And at the end of the party, she and Delilah, played by Louise Beavers, they're talking and Delilah is still subservient.

And at the end of the evening, they say good night to each other. And as they go to their separate quarters, we see this beautiful home that really Louise Beavers's pancake recipe has built. We see Claudette Colbert ascend up the steps and Louise Beavers descends down the stairs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Hmmm. So much -- you know, so much there to talk about. That was in 1934. But do these kinds of images throughout our cultural history shape things a lot more than people realized?

SWERDLICK: Oh, I think they absolutely do. I have seen that movie and the 1959 version of that movie.

[23:45:00]

LEMON: Lana Turner, right?

SWERDLICK: Right. It's -- not sure. But, anyway --

LEMON: It's Lana Turner.

SWERDLICK: -- I don't remember exactly how it all turns out because it has been a while, but that scene you just played, Don, it does encapsulate something that is so engrained in American life. With the white woman who has become rich off of this recipe going upstairs and the black woman who has been her essentially housekeeper or servant going down.

African-Americans and white Americans living in proximity, but this wealth disparity and this disparity in terms of respect and being seen as equals and being seen as full citizens, is all wrapped up in this discussion we're having right now.

I don't want to stretch the parallel too much, but when you're talking about police brutality, when you're talking about monuments, you know, all of these issues are complicated and every situation is different, but a thread going through them is about who in our society is granted respect and granted humanity and citizenship and who is not, and I think it's captured in that image in that scene you showed.

LEMON: Thank you, sir. We're going to be talking about this a lot more with, you know, with the statues and the monuments and whose image will come off of packages and whose will be put on and so on and so forth. And also, "Gone with the Wind," back up now on HBO now because of, you know, they had to put some context in it, HBO Max. Thank you. I appreciate it.

SWERDLICK: Thanks, Don. LEMON: The three most populous states in this country hitting all-time coronavirus -- all-time high coronavirus case numbers. Will they need to go back into lockdown? I'm going to ask a top doctor.

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[23:50:00]

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LEMON: We have been telling you about the coronavirus pandemic spreading across the U.S. More than half of U.S. states are showing a rise in cases. And three of the most populous states, California, Texas, and Florida, all setting records for the number of new cases recorded in one day.

Let's discuss now. Dr. William Schaffner is here. He's the professor of infectious diseases at Vanderbilt University. Doctor, it is so good to have you on. I wish it was under better circumstances that we were discussing, that we had this conversation.

These coronavirus case numbers, shocking, despite all of the sacrifices that we have been making. It seems like we're back to the beginning of this pandemic. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but it certainly feels like it. Why didn't the U.S. learn from China, from Italy or, for that matter, New York? We had months to prepare.

WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, PROFESSOR OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: Well, Don, we're different, right? And look what happened. When the virus first came over from people from China, it seeded itself in the major cities. And, there, we have these hotspots, just as you said. New York, Miami, and New Orleans, et cetera.

But, progressively, it's leaked out, smaller cities. And now, it's spreading further, towns and actually out into rural areas. So now, it's geographically dispersed throughout the country. It's making cases everywhere.

But what I'm really afraid of is since it's now everywhere, come fall, I think it's going to spring up all over the country. And I think this second wave that's coming in the fall will be worse than the first.

LEMON: Oh, goodness gracious. Excuse me. So let's look at the states, reporting all-time highs. Texas opened up early. California has been pretty careful from the beginning of this and still reported a record high of 7,000 cases today. What went wrong there?

SCHAFFNER: Well, what's happened is that although some folks were very careful, other people were carefree, right? They didn't wear their masks. Mine is to hand, every time. They didn't observe the six-foot distancing. They're going to bars. They're hanging out.

The coronavirus loves that. Coronavirus hasn't gone on summer vacation. It's here, spreading, seeding itself throughout the country, waiting to really create bad mischief, come the fall.

LEMON: So it seems like -- I guess we are, not seems like. New French study that we're learning new things about the coronavirus every day. There is a new French study out tonight that says plastic, glass, and aluminum surfaces contaminated with a moderate amount of coronavirus could play a key role in the indirect transmission of the virus. I thought we were just told the opposite from the CDC. How do we keep this straight?

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SCHAFFNER: It's hard. You do get conflicting reports. The general thrust, I think, is that inanimate surfaces play a minor role. It is still very close interpersonal contact to respiratory route within six feet. That is how this virus is spread. That's the highway of spread. That is where all the viral traffic is, going from one place to another.

Those little byways, those side streets, that may be the environment -- yes, a little bit of virus can spread that way, but the main route is close contact between people.

And of course, that is what a lot of people find difficulty with, because they want to start interacting again the way it used to be. And we're asking everybody to wear the masks and be standoffish. It's critical.

LEMON: Another sign of how much we --

[23:55:00]

LEMON: Well, I want to ask this question but unfortunately I'm out of time. I'll get you next time, doctor. Thank you so much. I have to run. You be safe. See you soon.

SCHAFFNER: You, too.

LEMON: Thanks. Always -- always too much to talk about even with two hours. So thank you, everyone, for watching. I'm Don Lemon. Our coverage continues.

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