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Don Lemon Tonight

Dr. Fauci Said The Start Of Coronavirus End Is Far From Reality; Changes In Sports In 2020; Oppo Research Launched By The White House Against Dr. Fauci; Teachers In One Classroom All Hit by COVID-19. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired July 13, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: That's all for us tonight. Thank you for watching. My favorite part of the night introducing "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon right now.

Things are changing, brother.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Yes. Did you ever think, I mean, this -- this whole idea about and you can call it, it's fair to call it the controversy about changing the team's name, the Redskins, former Redskins now, that's been happening for years. Did you ever think you'd see it actually come to fruition? I'm not so sure I --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: It was one of the stubbornness points of collective ignorance. Because look, here's an easy test. You and I want to start a team today, we're going to help kids out east and we want to name our team the Redskins. That idea would last about a nanosecond. What does that tell you?

LEMON: It wouldn't happen.

CUOMO: What does that tell you.

LEMON: Right. It wouldn't happen because of the Native American population out there obviously and people are extremely, extremely aware. But I don't know if it would last in many places in the country right now. I think the country is changing. Things are changing. One has to get used to it. Right?

CUOMO: I do -- look, I love the reversal of what President Nez suggested of calling them the code talkers. I don't know if that translates to sports. But I got to tell you, you want to play with lineage. I mean, what a difference in the war effort it was for us to have that advantage of an indigenous language that nobody else could decode. But it does show what's your process. How far does it go? Will be a key consideration.

LEMON: Yes. So, you always say that I never buy you anything, right? CUOMO: Yes, I do say that.

LEMON: OK. So, let me just tell you this. Honestly, Chris is one of the most generous people I know. He has new sunglasses. I say I like them, he'll say, do you want a pair? What color? Or I said --

CUOMO: Then I took them back.

LEMON: Then you took them back. You did.

CUOMO: But I have them for you.

LEMON: OK. All right.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I forgot.

LEMON: I'll believe it when I see it.

CUOMO: I have them.

LEMON: And then I said I like your shirt. You had a little eye on Lacoste or whatever it is. And I said I like your shirt. And you said I have one in white and black would you like one, right? And then say to me, I never -- you've never seen any wallet. Did you get the salad? Did you get what I sent to your table yesterday?

CUOMO: Well, listen, I was charged for that salad.

LEMON: You were not.

CUOMO: So, you saw that there was a lot of mayonnaise in that lobster salad so you didn't want it. So, you sent it over to the fat boys and we ate it. But we had to pay for it. That's not a gift. The green isn't supposed to be in the salad, it's supposed to come from your wallet.

LEMON: That is not true. Well, just say I never --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: And then they put you on the cover of magazines.

LEMON: I know that's your wife. I'm going to show everybody.

CUOMO: Cheapest man in the business. He said right on the bottom.

LEMON: I got to see. Chris's wife did a really fantastic thing. I must tell everyone. Very socially conscious. She owns a magazine that is about health and wellness.

And in this health and wellness magazine this month I'm on the cover talking about what's happening in the country right now as it relates to our health with coronavirus and with race in America. It is fantastic what she did. I can't say much about you but she's actually the smartest one in the family.

CUOMO: She did it against my objection for the purest --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- and that was her call. I wasn't for it. That's fine. I divested from the magazine because I'm disgusted with the choice. But Silence is Not an Option was the right title for the right podcast at the right time. And Tamron Hall your friend and obviously big name from broadcasting --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Tamron did an interview.

CUOMO: What a good interview.

LEMON: She did a great interview.

CUOMO: What a smart conversation that people will learn something from not just about you but about what matters, about Tamron too, really well done. I'm proud of you.

LEMON: I'm going to put it online. So, thank you and thanks to Christina. And Silence is Not an Option is the name of the issue. Right? It's the purest but that's the name of the issue as it relates to me and the name of my podcast. So, I thank you. So, look, I'll put it on my social media and everyone can read it. Or you go to the purest. Is it the purest.com?

CUOMO: Yes. Don't worry about it, they'll get there.

LEMON: Thank you, Chris. I'll see you. I've a bunch of stuff to cover. So we're going to continue on in the vein that you were and discuss what's happening in the world. So, I'll see you --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I love you, Don Lemon. Have a good night.

LEMON: I love you more, sir.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I am Don Lemon.

OK. I want you to pay attention to this because it's really, really important. Obviously. And I'm going to make sure to the best of my ability that I can bring it home to you. Ok? Because you may just be looking at numbers and thinking OK these are just numbers. Right? Sometimes it doesn't resonate. We're talking about lives here.

[22:04:56]

More and more Americans are dying every single day from the coronavirus. OK? That is a brutal fact regardless of what you hear from people who don't want it to be. So, whether it's the president whether it's his apologists, whether it's his people who work around. Whomever.

The president who is supposed to be protecting us is ignoring quote frankly, the facts and the science. More than 135,000 Americans dead. Think about that. Remember with the Ebola it was two people who died. Think about 135,000 people dead.

Cases rising in at least 35 states. Every one of the red and orange states you see on this map right now, OK, so, listen up. It's going to take a moment. But I want you to listen because you just say 35 states and you just gloss over right through it. May not -- so if you're in any of the states it's rising in your state.

Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, my home state of Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington State, West Virginia, Wisconsin.

That's a lot of states. Are you in one of those states? The cases are rising in your state. What are you going to do about it? Are you taking it seriously? I don't mean to be preachy but I'm trying to get you to understand all the work that we have done over the last couple months. Do you want it to be in vein?

Nearly one out of every 100 Americans has been infected. It's not just people who may have a fever or you think are sick. Or that, you know, maybe that, it's not that, people who are a symptomatic can spread this. You don't even know that they're sick. You may not even know that you're sick.

And you can still give it to someone. A potentially deadly virus. This virus is not done with us yet. The top epidemiologist in this country Dr. Anthony Fauci saying this today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: This is a really serious problem. It is truly historic. We haven't even begun to see the end of it yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, he is right. Look at the map again. All right. A sea of red. With more and more Americans dying every single day. The response from this White House from this president is to ignore the science, ignore Dr. Fauci. With more and more Americans in danger. The president's response is to deny, deny, deny.

But we can all see with our eyes. Deny the truth. Treat Dr. Fauci like some kind of political enemy. Treat the people as if they're not smart enough to understand or see the science. Or know the science. Or see it whatever they see with their own eyes.

Maybe their -- maybe a relative or someone you know has it. Has been sick. Has died. The president hasn't spoken with Dr. Fauci in more than a month in the middle of a deadly pandemic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, I have a very good relationship with Dr. Fauci. I've had for a long time, right from the beginning. I find him to be a very nice person. I don't always agree with him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He says he doesn't always agree with Dr. Fauci, he doesn't always agree with the science. He doesn't always agree with the facts. But you know who this president does agree with? You know who he is promoting instead of one of the nation's top doctors? A former game show host. But I guess that makes sense to a reality show president.

The president wants you to stake your life and the lives of your family on the opinion of, what's that, "The Dating Game?"

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is it, take beautiful and love frenzy.

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LEMON: Chuck Woolery. Well, I haven't seen Chuck Woolery in a long time. But he's I guess alive and well on Twitter. Yes, that Chuck Woolery who claims the CDC, the media, Democrats and doctors were all lying about the coronavirus. And that's the guy this president wants you to believe. The guy that I used to watch on TV when I was a kid in the 1970s.

One official telling CNN, quote, "several White House officials are concerned about the number of times Dr. Fauci has been wrong on things and going on to provide a lengthy oppo research style list of examples." Senior administration official telling CNN TONIGHT, quote, "it's just the White House tired of getting media questions about their relationship with St. Anthony."

But seriously, the White House is concerned about the number of times Dr. Fauci was wrong? Seriously? Roll the tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We have it totally under control. It's one person. Coming in from China. And we have it under control. It's going to be just fine.

We're in very good shape. And I think China is in very good shape also.

We have very little problem in this country at this moment. Five. And those people are all recuperating successfully.

We're going down not up. We're going very substantially down, not up. When you have 15 people and the 15 within a couple of days is going to

be down to close to zero. That's a pretty good job we've done. Because of the all we've done the risk to the American people remains very low.

We have done an incredible job. We're going to continue. It's going to disappear. One day it's like a miracle.

It will go away, just stay calm. It will go away.

We had a lot of people who were saying maybe we shouldn't do anything. Just ride it. They say ride it like a cowboy. Just ride it. Ride that sucker right through.

You know it is going away. And it will go away. And we're going to have a great victory in.

By April, you know in theory when it gets a little warmer it miraculously goes away.

But eventually it's going to go away. The question is will we need a vaccine? At some point it will probably go away by itself.

Anybody that wants a test can get a test.

We have a great testing capacity not. It's getting even better. There's nobody close to us in the world.

Because of all of the cases that we find we have a very low mortality rate. Just about the best in the world. So that's the advantage to the testing along with other things.

Now we have tested almost 40 million people. By so doing, we showcases 99 percent of which are totally harmless.

And we are testing and creating, it's the greatest thing that happened for the opposite party. But we're doing something that nobody has ever done to the extent and we're doing a great job.

The FDA also gave emergency authorization for hydroxychloroquine. And I say it, what do you have to lose? I'll say it again. What do you have to lose? Take it. It will be wonderful. It will be so beautiful. It will be a gift from heaven. If it works.

I take a pill every day. At some point I'll stop. What I'd like to do is I'd like to have the cure and or the vaccine. And that will happen I think very soon. I get a lot of positive calls about it. The only negative I've heard was the study where they gave it was it the V.A. with, you know, people that aren't big Trump fans gave it.

I suppose you bring the light inside the body in which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you're going to test that too? Sounds interesting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We'll get the right folks who could. TRUMP: Right. And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that? By injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That one never -- I mean, it's a shocking as the first time you see it. It gets inside -- does a number on the lungs. gets inside the lungs and knock it out in a minute. One minute. Injection. That was a job doesn't get easier than that mine. Just play it. That was three minutes that I didn't have to talk or say anything. He made the case for me.

This president has been wrong from the very beginning. Downplaying the virus. Encouraging Americans to take a potentially dangerous drug. Even taking it himself and suggesting ingesting disinfectant could knock out the virus. And don't say he didn't say it. I have heard so many people say he didn't say that. It's on video tape, people.

[22:14:59]

All the while, this deadly disease was spreading. And is still spreading. All the while Americans were dying. Are dying. And the president just throws up his hands acting like nobody could have seen this coming.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: So, nobody ever thought this could have happened a thing like this. It's very, very sad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: It is a president's job to prepare for things like this to spend every waking moment, trying to save American lives in the face of a pandemic. Not spinning, not lying, not worrying about reelection. By trying to save American lives. But you know what, I can tell you at least one person. One person. Who thought a thing like this could happen. As a matter of fact, they warned about it six years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF America: There may and likely will come a time in which we have both an airborne disease that is deadly. And in order for us to deal with that effectively, we have to put in place an infrastructure, not just here at home but globally. That allows us to see it quickly, isolate it quickly, and respond to it quickly.

So that if and when a new strain of flu like the Spanish flu crops up, five years from now, or a decade from now, we've made the investment. And we're further along to be able to catch it.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: In order to do that, one has to be smart, one has to be a leader, one has to be presidential. One has to be respected and one has to respect the position and the office that they are in. And not selfish. Selfless. Understanding what it is to actually be President of the United States and represent and lead all of the people.

The President of the United States ignoring facts, ignoring the science leaving states to fend for themselves. Are we going to end up with more states and cities closing back down? And how will the president react to that?

That is the question for Kaitlan Collins, Dr. Peter Hotez after the break.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The coronavirus surging all across this country especially in California, Texas, Florida. At least 35 states seeing an increase in cases. A death toll in the U.S. from the virus now more than 135,000 people.

Let's bring in CNN's White House Correspondent, Kaitlan Collins, as well as Dr. Peter Hotez, professor and dean of tropical medicine at Baylor College of Medicine. Good evening to both of you.

Doctor, I'm going to start with you. So, let's talk about California rolling back its reopening, shutting down all indoor activity. In Los Angeles and San Diego students won't be returning to school buildings next month. Should other states with surging cases and hospitalization do the same? Should they follow suit?

PETER HOTEZ, INFECTIOUS EXPERT, BAYLOR UNIVERSITY: yes, they're going to have no choice, Don. These cases are rising precipitously in multiple states, really in a band across the southern half of the United States. It's worse in some than others. It's worse in Texas, Florida, Arizona, Southern California.

And the only choice maybe to really begin (technical difficulty) -- it's not just the number of cases due to diagnostic testing as the White House would like us to believe. But in fact, a number of hospitalizations, ICU admission is rising precipitously. Positive testing rates and sadly, the deaths.

And the other piece to this, Don, we've talked about this before is the picture is emerging that it's the low-income neighborhoods that are really being devastated. So, it's bad in the Latino community so I think they're being hammered right now. Terrible stories in South Texas that we're hearing. And I think that's pretty true across the southern part of the United States. African-American populations.

So, we are -- we are picking off our most vulnerable and most precious resources right now. And no federal response. And this what's so heartbreaking. LEMON: Yes. Lack of leadership. So, speaking of, Kaitlan, instead of

listening to Dr. Fauci's warnings the White House is releasing oppo research on him. Retweeting conspiracy theories put out by an '80s game show host, that's at '70s really, maybe '70s or '80s. Who knows? This is -- this is all about the election for him.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, that's the question is you're looking at how did the White House spin this weekend as we were seeing this national surge in cases. And it's putting out this opposition style research on Dr. Fauci. Someone who works for this administration and is part of the task force.

And today at that briefing you saw they denied that they -- they said they weren't putting out opposition style research but there's really no other way to describe what this document was. I personally saw that they were circulating on Dr. Fauci pointing to statements he made then to statements he's making now. And even adding, you know, their own analysis in it. Though of course anonymously, Don, attributed to any officials.

[22:25:03]

And so, I think what the president a lot of this has to do with the fact that he has seen that Dr. Fauci gets really good approval ratings. And sources told me that the president was complaining about seeing Dr. Fauci on television so much.

Obviously, when Dr. Fauci was still appearing on television regularly it was a lot of times contradicting something that the president has said. Because he said so many things that were either misleading or not true about this virus. And so basically the president had gotten irritated with Dr. Fauci. Despite how you have seen the White House try to downplayed tensions between the two it became pretty clear over the last few days.

LEMON: And there's so much to respond to what you said but I don't -- I only have, you know, limited time in the two hours that I have tonight.

So, Dr. Hotez, listen, on the pandemic, Dr. Fauci is saying that "we haven't even begun to see the end of it yet." That's the quote. The president is ignoring that. This isn't an academic debate about science. People's lives are at stake here.

HOTEZ: That's right. We're seeing this aggressive rise. And you know, the last time we talked, I think it was 40,000 new cases a day. Then it's 50,000, 60,000. It will be easily over 70,000 new cases per day by the end of -- by the end of this week. And again, it's the hospitalizations and deaths.

So, what you're seeing I think is the beginnings or the middle of an unfolding deliberate disinformation campaign. Because it's not only targeting Dr. Fauci. It's if you listen to the president's advisers talking about Chinese conspiracy theories, blaming the World Health Organization, it's all part of the same thing. It's saying that it's 99 percent of the cases are harmless. And the death rates are really low.

This is all being very well coordinated and clever --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But doctor, I have to say, if you let me jump in here, please. Listen, I know from personal experience that people are buying this load of hooey and they are believing that well, look at the death rates, they're down and the recovery rate and, you know, people if you're sick then you'll know it it's around. First of all, people are asymptomatic they can still spread it. The death rates haven't caught up and go on. Please explain.

HOTEZ: Yes. Well, the death rates are going up now. So, the point is, we've seen this before. And I know this because I'm public enemy number one with the antivaccine movement. They call me the O.G. villain, the original gangster villain. And I've been, you know, attacked as part of this massive disinformation campaign against vaccines.

And the White House is now going by the same play book. They're using all the same techniques. And I'm seeing it all over again having deja vu. And it's very concerning. Because and it's not so much the disinformation it's the fact that they've advocated leadership.

That they've -- there are refusing to take ownership of this, address it to the American people, explain what the problem is, and create a plan and a road map and I don't see how this ends. These numbers will keep going up. Will go way past the 100,000 new cases a day. That apocalyptic number that Dr. Fauci predicted. Unless there's a prediction (Ph) there's nothing to stop this from continuing to rise.

LEMON: Well thank you both. And by the way, Kaitlan, just give me yes or no. It's early June since it was the last time that Dr. Fauci briefed the president, right, or spoke to him about it. June 2 or something like that?

COLLINS: That's what he said as of last week.

LEMON: Wow. Kaitlan, Dr. Hotez, thank you both. I appreciate it.

There's so much more we still don't know about the coronavirus. You can catch it multiple times. My next guest says is a doctor who says his patient caught the virus twice. And the second time was worse.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, the president pushing for schools to reopen in the fall even with coronavirus cases on the rise and in 35 states. But at what cost? At what cost? Think of Arizona teacher Kimberly Byrd passed away on June 26, less than two weeks after she was hospitalized.

She was hospitalized with COVID-19. And she had been sharing an online summer school classroom with two other teachers when all three contracted. They all had been wearing masks and gloves, using hand sanitizer, socially distancing.

So, joining me now the teachers who shared that classroom with Kimberly Byrd. Her friends Jena Martinez and Angela Skillings. Thank you both so much. I appreciate it. I'm so sorry that you're dealing with this and I'm sorry about the death of your friend. OK?

JENA MARTINEZ, ONE OF THREE TEACHERS CONTRACTED WITH CORONAVIRUS: Thank you.

ANGELA SKILLINGS, ONE OF THREE TEACHERS CONTRACTED WITH CORONAVIRUS: Thank you.

LEMON: The three of you were the only people in the room at the time teaching for two hours at a time. You followed all the rules. So, tell us about the precautions you took.

MARTINEZ: OK. So --

SKILLINGS: We -- go ahead, Jena.

MARTINEZ: We had, of course we had the CDC guidelines and we also had our school mandate to us what it is that we were having to do in order -- when we came back on campus. They were wanting us to come back on campus and teach summer school.

So, we followed everything that we were supposed to do. And we decided because we were teaching cross grade level that we would work as a team and be in the same classroom. And we began working together in Kimberly -- in Kimberly's room. But we already designed how we were going to execute instruction. And how we were going to teach remotely as far as taking turns, who was responsible. How we were going to maneuver do that.

So, we began in her room on Monday, the first day of summer school. And because we had some problems with technicality, things not working like such as the document and camera we decided to proceed in Angela's room on Tuesday and move from there.

[22:35:05]

While we were there, we did distance ourselves. And again, we had already prepped how we were going to function in order to teach remotely and teach our kids through zoom.

LEMON: Yes. And that was, I should have said, Jena, called your name. I'm sorry about that. So, Angela, how did you learn that Kim was in the hospital?

SKILLINGS: Our secretary called us Sunday morning that she had gotten a phone call from Kim's husband Jesse. That she had been hospitalized that they were testing her for COVID-19 and that she was going to be placed on a ventilator.

LEMON: I understand that the two of you, Angela, also came down with the virus. What has that been like? SKILLINGS: It's been rough. At first mine was light and easy. But

after about two weeks it started getting rough. (technical difficulty) fever and cough that body ache started coming on. I'm at week four and I'm still have the cough and sometimes some fatigue.

LEMON: And what about you, Jena?

MARTINEZ: My symptoms came in with fatigue being first. That week after we learned that Kim was hospitalized and after we were tested on the 15th for COVID my symptoms started creeping in as the cough. And then, I mean, excuse me, as fatigue and then a cough set in. But it wasn't until that Friday when my fever kicked in that it got really bad.

And I was like that for almost two weeks. And once the fever broke, I started feeling like I was seeing the light at the end of tunnel. And since then, it's been I'm still taking breathing treatments to relieve the tightness in my chest. There is still a weakness in my body and fatigue. Trouble with sleep. And I retested negative.

LEMON: Do you -- let me just put this up real quick. This is the statement to CNN from Kimberly's husband where she said -- where he said, I understand the political divide on this topic and strongly feel that at this point in our in time our schools are not adequately and financially equipped to safely return to a traditional classroom.

Do you agree that schools -- do you agree with that sentiment, Angela? Do you think schools are ready to open?

SKILLINGS: No. Schools are not ready to open. We -- we have heard our education secretary say there's data that says that, you know, kids don't transmit or it doesn't affect children as much as. But how do we know? We have been closed down since March before we even had cases in Arizona or even cases that many cases around the United States.

So, there's no documentation that children aren't going to transmit it back and forth in the classroom or that it isn't going to affect them harshly or, you know, that they would just have mild cases. Our schools are not ready. We are not prepared to open up. We're supposed to open on the 17th of August. And there's no way that even the teachers are ready for that to happen.

LEMON: yes. Or if the adult is not going to give it to a child or teachers aren't pass it amongst themselves. So, and other adults' staff.

Thank you, Angela. Thank you, Jena. And again, I'm so sorry about your loss. But I'm glad that you guys are doing OK. Continue to do well and continue to be teachers. The teachers are amazing. They don't -- we don't give them enough credit. So, thank you so much.

MARTINEZ: Thank you very much.

SKILLINGS: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you. So, there's a new study that shows any coronavirus immunity might only

last just weeks. My next guest a doctor warns just because you had coronavirus doesn't mean you can't get it again.

[22:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Alarming new concerns about coronavirus immunity after a U.K. study suggests that antibody responses could decline just 20 to 30 days after the first sign of symptoms. That's backed up by some what doctors are seeing including internist and primary care physician Dr. Clay Ackerly who says one of his patients likely caught the virus twice. Dr. Ackerly is here now.

CLAY ACKERLY, INTERNIST, FOXHALL INTERNISTS IN WASHINGTON, D.C.: Don, thanks so much for having me. It's good to be here.

LEMON: Thank you. You're shaking your head in agreement. So, tell us about this patient of yours, who the one who got the coronavirus recovered.

ACKERLY: Absolutely.

LEMON: Apparently got it again a second time.

ACKERLY: Absolutely. So, he caught the coronavirus in April. Had mild symptoms. Cough, sore throat, got tested. Tested positive. Did well. Had two -- recovered from that. Two negative tests. So I believe cleared the virus. Then in mid-June, had a family member who caught coronavirus again came into the home and caught it a second time from that family member.

Unfortunately, he did not do as well the second time high fever, severe shortness of breath, but ended up ultimately doing well after having to go to the hospital several times. So, I do worry that he did catch coronavirus twice.

LEMON: After two negative tests from the first?

ACKERLY: Yes.

LEMON: My gosh.

ACKERLY: Yes.

[22:45:00]

LEMON: OK. Our doctor -- our very own Dr. Sanjay Gupta weighed in today about reinfections and that U.K. antibody study. Listen to this.

ACKERLY: Yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: At this point middle of July we haven't seen a case reports of people becoming re-infected in this country. OK? There was some discussion about that in South Korea. That was probably not actually true reinfections. If it were true that the antibodies and protection were only lasting 20 to 30 days, I think we would have started to see some significant amounts of reinfection. We haven't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Ok. So, having -- you heard what he said. Would you expect to have seen more examples of reinfection by now if the immune response was so weak?

ACKERLY: I think there are other things underway not just the antibodies. I think the antibody the studies are very, very important as they are core part of our immune defenses. There is cellular responses and other things that maybe protecting us beyond just antibodies.

However, I do worry that in particular my patient, did catch it twice. And while we do not know. And this is just one case example. And there are other case examples that are emerging. I do worry that we will be seeing more and more of these cases. Which has implications for how we behave day-to-day.

LEMON: I've heard -- I've heard many people say well, you know we just have to get herd immunity, herd immunity, herd immunity. You say that is wishful thinking.

ACKERLY: I do. I worry that it is. Right? I think the zero prevalence studies that we're seeing out of the Spain and elsewhere not a lot of people have antibodies right now. And yes, there are other parts of our immune system that hopefully will help protect us.

I think it's dangerous thinking, wishful thinking. It's a lot of pain to get there in the end. To hope that if we just allow it to spread within the community it will ultimately be protected. That is one path way.

But if as I fear, that immunity is shorter and you can get re-infected like my patient did, that the herd immunity pathway is going to be very painful. And ultimately maybe not possible. But I do have a lot of hope --

LEMON: All right.

ACKERLY: -- that other pathways to get through the pandemic.

LEMON: Wow. We learn something new, maybe a lot new every single day about this virus. So much we still don't know. Thank you, Dr. Ackerly. I appreciate it.

ACKERLY: Thank you very much.

LEMON: Listen, a programming note before we get to the break really. I just want to make sure you know about my new podcast. It is -- you will find it interesting. Silence is Not an Option. I'm taking on the tough questions about what's happening in America right now. Specifically, around the subject of race. Being black in America. You can find it on Apple podcast or in your favorite podcast app.

Next, the Washington Redskins dropping their name. Will other teams follow suit?

[22:50:00]

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LEMON: After years of refusing, Washington Redskins owner Dan Snyder is bowing to pressure from team sponsors and will change the name of his team, until now, Snyder refused or had refused to change the name despite protests from Native Americans and others.

So, joining me now is Mr. Bomani Jones, the host of The Right Time with Bomani Jones on ESPN."

Good evening, sir. Thank you for joining. I appreciate it.

BOMANI JONES, HOST, ESPN: Good evening.

LEMON: Did you ever think, Bomani, that this would happen? I never thought. I asked Chris earlier. What a time in our history that this is happening now.

JONES: Yes, I mean, I think it had to happen at some point. Like one thing I think that get lost on the discussion about this particular team name is how ridiculously late they are. Like people have been making changes like this over the last 50 or 60 years.

So, the idea that I thought it would never happen, no, I don't think I would have gone that far. What has been surprising though is how they went from zero to 60 from making the decision that this thing is going to have to change, and so how quickly they are actually going to change. Like, that pace has been surprising. but otherwise, no, I think this is an inevitability.

LEMON: Yes. I don't know. I just -- I never -- I'm glass half empty, I guess. So. But listen, in terms of bringing real change in racial justice to America, is removing a racist mascot name low hanging fruit. Do you think it's important to the culture? Does every little bit count something to check off the list, it's problem and now it's time for us to move on to other things. What do you think about that?

JONES: No, I think this is a pretty significant bit of symbolism here. Just the very idea that we had some expectation that Native Americans are supposed to abide by a situation, we had a brand that was this big, that was referred to them as a slur.

I don't think that this is very much about as necessarily than it is changing. Like it's pretty low bar if you say that that's -- I won't say it's a low bar to say it's a victory, because for native people, they have been fighting for this for so long. So, it is a victory. But it does not imply anything good about us in the macros sense. And it took this long to get it done in the first place. However, in the same way, I look at the Mississippi state flag where I

think that's a big deal that you no longer ask people to live under a banner of a nation that was, you know, built for this express purpose of oppressing certain people. I there is something to be said for no longer asking native people to abide by the idea that we can just call them a slur on television all the time just because a football team wants to do it.

LEMON: And listen, I ask that -- I ask that question almost as a devil's advocate. Because I hear people saying, well, you know, what does that matter, that's not going to change the way police treat people. It's not going to -- it's not going to get anybody equitable treatment in society. I don't know if I necessarily agree with it but that is the argument. And you definitely, you are saying, no, this is significant.

JONES: Yes. I also think that in this process that we seem to be going through right now, there are going to be a lot of intermediate steps. Like not everything is going to be the magic wand that fixes the macro problems that put us into place that we're in.

[22:55:01]

So somewhere along the way, people are going to do small things. And I do think it's a little bit dangerous to dismiss all those things that people think are smaller because they're not the big thing that they ultimately want to be fixed.

So, you are going to see people in the internet saying all we ask you to do is defund the police or something like that. And I get where people are coming from. But there are these little that I think happen in people's lives. They do have, they matter. They may not matter in a way that it involves like rewriting the history backs.

But I do think that when you put all those things together there's a significance to it also. So, I'm not so cynical at this point to just say that if it's not the thing that's going to fix everything that I don't want to hear it. Now I think there are few smaller things that are worth listening to.

LEMON: Well said. Thank you for that. I appreciate that answer. So, listen, quick answer if you will. One of the potential new names for this team that is gaining a lot of scenes -- the Washington red tails, after the famous Tuskegee airman. Do you like that idea, Bomani?

JONES: It doesn't really do much for me for one. I mean, I feel like if we want to the Tuskegee airmen let's not put their name on a losing football team. Let's get someone a little bit better than that, number one.

Number two, I found it peculiar in their statement that the team put out on July 3rd where they said they would have a name that will honor the military. And I don't understand why your team name has to honor the military. The last one didn't seem to honor the military and I don't know why we need to go down this road again of putting people on a team. Right? Like I think that there's a certain fear from some folks that if you

were to go from say what the name was before to something more conventional, lions, tigers, bears, or something like that, it would lay bare the idea that we were comparing these Native Americans to animals by having their name in the first place.

What people want to do is find something big and magnanimous that is going to honor somebody. It's the name of a football team. It doesn't have to be something that deep.

LEMON: Bomani Jones, everyone. Thank you, sir. We appreciate it. I'll see you soon.

JONES: Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Coronavirus cases rising in 35 states throughout the past week. Dr. Fauci is calling the virus, quote, "your worst nightmare" but the president is spreading conspiracy theories.

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