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Don Lemon Tonight
COVID Cases Have Skyrocketed For Weeks Now; POTUS' Niece Calling Him Incapable; Police Retirements Gone Up 400 Percent; Law Passed Without Hearing Police Side. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired July 14, 2020 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right. My time is up almost but why not start with "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon scorch earth early. Enough is never enough.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Ten whole seconds. Wow. Thank you. You're so generous.
CUOMO: pay me later. So, look, what's very clear to us with what's going on with Fauci is that this president strategy is destroy the truth tellers. And I don't think it will work with Fauci. In fact, I think it may backfire.
When you hear Graham saying no, no, no, don't do this. You got to think about whether or not this is a strategy that helps even the president in his own mind.
LEMON: Well, I think you're right in all that. And I think all the truth tellers have to do is just hold and just wait. Long enough. Because they say the truth always comes out in the rinse. Right? So, just hold on and hold out and the truth will come. The truth will set you free.
So, I think I agree that trying to destroy someone when they say you dig one ditch you better dig two. Because the next one you dig just might be for you. Right? So, so, I think that's the Trump administration and the people who are trying to do that with Dr. Anthony Fauci should heed that advice. I know that's an old cliche. But it is true.
So, you never take glee in someone's downfall and you never take glee in trying to destroy someone because it always ends up destroying you. And I think that is again, they should heed that advice. He is the number one infectious disease doctor expert in the entire country. Come on.
CUOMO: He's our guy. he's -- look, the people see that. They respect him. That's why he is attacking him. But just to be clear. It's not a they, it's a he --
LEMON: Yes. CUOMO: -- when it comes to why they're doing this to Fauci. This is Trump. Trump is having them do this. But there's people who freelance.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But they are complicit. They are complicit.
CUOMO: Absolutely.
LEMON: They are complicit. And -- hey, can you please -- I just want you to --
CUOMO: Yes, sir.
LEMON: -- dealing with the -- OK so, I know a lot of people who are -- I grew up in a red state. Right? I lived in mostly red states. And I think New York is the first state that I grew up, that I lived in that wasn't necessarily red. And people just don't believe it is happening.
I mean, they are down south in my home state of Louisiana and Texas and so on. I've been sharing -- hearing stories from my family and my sister. People are refusing to wear masks. They are, people are getting called the n-word or what lib tards and all that stuff because they're wearing masks in public.
You went through this. Can you please say something to these people who are saying well, it's because of the testing, it's because of this? And I spoke to the mayor last night in Texas and he said they had like, they were testing about 2,000 people a day in his city. And the infection rate was 2 percent.
Now they're testing about 7,000 a day. And the infection rate is anywhere between 24 and 27 percent. There's nothing to do with testing. The testing is just showing how it is spreading. It has nothing -- the death rate and all that -- I'm --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: It would be a blurred idea if the president weren't saying it all the time. He keeps saying the only reason we have cases is because we're testing. Like that's a bad thing. That the testing is the problem.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You know, as I said earlier on the show, it's like, hey, Don, I just figured out the cure to cancer. Let's stop counting cases.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: That's what he is recommending. And all that lets you know is unless literally he is diseased of the mind like COVID-19 has taken his I.Q. away. He's saying this because he wants you to mitigate the relevance of the pandemic.
LEMON: Yes. CUOMO: Because he wants it to go away so the economy can come back faster. What he doesn't seem to get is if you don't deal with the reality of the pandemic you won't get the economy back. that's why 27 states are having to step backwards. But it's really ugly stuff. It's really toxic stuff.
And look, that's why his guys are like sucker over on state TV and the other guy say Cuomo didn't really have it. Man, I wish they were right. I'll tell you what. I would own it. I would own it and I would step down from the job just to get back to what I was before I had COVID.
LEMON: Well.
CUOMO: Because I don't think I'm ever going to be the same.
LEMON: Yes, I know. We talked about that and we're going to talk more. I got you. I got you, buddy.
CUOMO: Yes, you are going to have to. Soon you may be carrying me around like a stall.
LEMON: I will push your wheelchair. So, listen, I got to say -- I got to go because I've got a big night. I'm covering the crime surges happening in America.
CUOMO: Very important.
LEMON: And there are different reasons why it's happening. A whole lot of things coming -- a number of things coming together. The perfect storm. And we're going to talk about that. It's not just about politics, it's not just about protests, it's not just about black lives matter, and it's not just about COVID.
All of these things have formed the perfect storm and now there's a surge in crime in this country. And we're going to talk about why and offer some solutions. We've some big heads of the NYPD and other departments around the country were going to talk to us about it, as well as black -- members of black lives matter and people have fallen victim to it.
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So, I got to get to it. You have a great evening. I'll see you later.
CUOMO: Tell it, D. Lemon. I love you.
LEMON: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Love you more.
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
And I really want you to think about this. Seriously think about this fact. It is a fact. OK? This is not my opinion. This is not my perspective or my point of view. This is a fact. OK?
Because the White House doesn't want you to think about this fact. Imagine this. You don't have to imagine it, it's true. More than 137 -- 36 -- excuse me -- more than 136,000 Americans have died of the coronavirus in just five and a half months. One hundred thirty-six thousand of our fellow Americans.
Your loved ones, your friends, your family. Your co-workers. Your Neighbors. And the top infectious disease doctor in the country who is Dr. Anthony Fauci, warns it could get much, much worse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: If you look at the magnitude of the 1918 pandemic where anywhere from 50 to 75 to 100 million people globally died. I mean, that was the mother of all pandemics. And truly historic. I hope we don't even approach that with this. But it does have the makings of the possibility of being, you know, approaching that in seriousness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The mother of all pandemics. You think that when the President of the United States took to the Rose Garden today that he would have something to say about that. About the mother of all pandemics. You think he'd show some leadership. Tell us what he's doing to save lives. Not this president. Listen to what his own niece says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY TRUMP, DONALD TRUMP'S NIECE: He's utterly incapable of leading this country. And it's dangerous to allow him to do so.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, CHIEF ANCHOR, ABC NEWS: Based on what you see now or what you saw then?
M. TRUMP: Based on what I've seen my entire adult life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK, your niece. Or you have a niece? Can you imagine your niece saying that about you? Getting on national television and saying that about you? My niece would be out of the will. But of course, my niece none of them would actually say that about me.
Can you imagine your own niece calling you utterly incapable? Utterly incapable? Utterly incapable of leading this country. That's what she says. Instead this president subjects us to what amounts to a campaign rally speech. Right?
It wasn't a briefing. It was a campaign rally speech. Minus the cheering crowd of course. Because there's nothing to cheer about right now. Nothing. But the president spent more than an hour patting himself on the back. Lashing out at Joe Biden as if -- as if Trump is the underdog. He is the president. He has the bully pulpit. What's he so afraid of? Why is he so insecure right now? Think about that.
If you know you're right and you have the upper hand and you have the bully pulpit of the presidency, wouldn't you just be smooth sailing? This is what it is. I got this under control. Wouldn't you? Think about it. If you were President of the United States.
Man, I can't imagine, the President of the United States I'd be like I got this. I'm taking care of my people. I wouldn't have a you know what session in the Rose Garden about how I'm so aggrieved about everything. My gosh. Everybody is out to get me.
Come on, man. To hear it everything and anything but talk seriously and honestly about this pandemic that is killing more of our fellow American citizens every single day. He sure doesn't want you thinking about this or about the stark warnings from the nation's public health experts like the CDC. The director there, Dr. Robert Redfield.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT REDFIELD, DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: I do think the fall and the winter of 2020 and 2021 are going to be probably one of the most difficult times that we have experienced in American public health.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: This president is barreling ahead. Thinking of nothing but November. And demanding students and teachers go back into classrooms this fall even if they don't think it's safe. Even if local authorities decide against it.
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I will tell parents and teachers that you should find yourself a new person whoever is in charge of that decision because it's a terrible decision. Because children and parents are dying from that trauma too. They're dying. Because they can't do what they're doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Dying. Dying from that from not going back to school? He doesn't even mention the 136,000 Americans dying of the coronavirus. So jedi mind trick if you fall for it. I really don't know what to say about you. Because nothing matters more than him than convincing you to him, that convincing you that America is back to normal.
This president is actually willing to put your health, your life at risk if it means he is reelected. Is it any wonder that -- wonder that Dr. Fauci says this about who you should trust.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAUCI: I believe, for the most part, you can trust respected medical authorities. You know, I believe I'm one of them. So, I think you can trust me. But I would stick with respected medical authorities who have a track record of telling the truth who have a track record of giving information and policy and recommendation based on scientific evidence and good data. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That wasn't even a veil threat. Sound like anyone you know? Not even a threat. It's not a threat. It wasn't even a veil criticism -- excuse me, not a threat, a veil criticism. Pretty specific to me. Does it sound like anyone you know? Well, it certainly doesn't sound like anyone in the White House. It certainly doesn't sound like the president who said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I said supposing you brought the light inside the body in which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you're going to test that too? It sounds interesting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We'll get the right folks who could.
TRUMP: Right. And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that? By injection inside or almost a cleaning because you see it gets in the lungs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I'm sorry. I know this isn't funny. That was the President of the United States. Please, Mr. Director, can we please just play that again? Can we?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I said supposing you brought the light inside the body in which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you're going to test that too? It sounds interesting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We'll get the right folks who could.
TRUMP: Right. And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that? By injection inside or almost a cleaning because you see it gets in the lungs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I needed that again to get my composure because it is not funny. That was the President of the United States. Suggesting that people should inject disinfectant or light inside the body. And he expects to talk you know what about Dr. Fauci with credibility? Come on.
So, who are you going to trust? Dr. Fauci who is relying on facts and scientific evidence. Remember, Dr. Fauci the whole AIDS epidemic. Presidential Medal of Freedom. That Dr. Fauci. Are you going to believe him or are you going to believe the White House that is continually trying to undermine him like with this cartoon that was posted on Facebook by Dan Scavino. No less than the White House deputy chief of staff for communications and director of social media. Yes. That's your administration. This president has been wrong over
and over and over and over. I can't even play -- if I play sound bites of how wrong he's been I'd be on the air until three or four in the morning. From day one. And now he is just doubling down on the distraction.
I want you to listen to his continuing defense today of nothing other than the confederate flag.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I just think it's freedom of speech. Whether it's confederate flags or black lives matter. Or anything else you want to talk about. It's freedom of speech.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Man, comparing that confederate flag to black lives matter.
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As we say in the south, bless your heart. He really does not get it. Or maybe he does. And he's using you. He's playing you. You ever think about that? And then there is this. This is to CBS. Leaning in to the racist rhetoric and downplaying issues with police violence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CATHERINE HERRIDGE, SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT, CBS NEWS: Why are African-Americans still dying at the hands of law enforcement in this country?
TRUMP: And so are white people. So are white people. What a terrible question to ask. So are white people. More white people by the way. More white people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So, yes, we like to say on this program and on this network, facts first. Facts first. Yes, it is true that white people are also killed by the police. No one ever said that they weren't. But the real point of it all is and the tragedy is that adjusted by population -- please look at your screen, everyone.
Adjusted by population, black people are nearly three times more likely to be killed by police than white people. Is there anything wrong with people of any ethnicity wanting to be treated equally by police? And not brutalized or not killed or not having three times more chance or likelihood of being killed by police. Think about that.
Police, I mean, if white people were killed by police three times more than -- wouldn't you say like, wait, something is going on here. So, this president is just dumb when it comes -- he just doesn't know. Or he's just racist. Or both. They're not mutually exclusive.
But the president won't even consider the question. He just calls it a terrible question to ask. Well that's exactly the question we're going to consider tonight. Because that's part of a really tough conversation that America needs to have right now.
This is the summer of COVID-19. It is the summer of protests and now we have a summertime surge in crime. Police in America are under fire. And now in many cases so are the people. Eleven murders, 64 victims of shootings in Chicago this weekend. A 9-year-old boy killed in a triple shooting in New Orleans. Police say the child was shot in the head.
An 11-year-old shot and killed while visiting family in Washington, D.C. His grandfather who founded the D.C. chapter of the Guardian Angels saying this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN AYALA, DAVON MCNEAL'S GRANDFATHER: Being out here and fighting this for all these years, I never thought it would actually hit home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I'm going to talk to that grandfather a little bit later on tonight. So, make sure you stay tuned.
And in New York, 28 shooting incidents and 35 victims just over the weekend including a 1-year-old baby shot outside a New York City Park. That was Sunday night. NYPD Chief Terence Monahan says this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERENCE MONAHAN, CHIEF OF DEPARTMENT, NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT: As I've said, there's a lot of different factors into it. You know, we mention bail reform and COVID releases, but just as importantly, if not more importantly is the animosity towards the police that was generated after the Floyd protest. There's a feeling on the street that the police are handcuffed, that they are not out there as aggressively as we were in the past.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Whether you want to believe that or not, if it's true or not, that's how police feel right now. That's what the police are saying. There is some truth to that and we're going to discuss it. Probably a lot of truth to that. Right? Whether you want to admit it or not, I implore you to sit down and watch this broadcast no matter what side of this policing issue you're on because we are going to address all of it and dig deep.
What is the problem? What is going on? Are the protests going too far? Have police gone too far? Is it -- is it -- is this like when people say well, the incidents of people, black people being killed by police it's not going up? We're seeing it on camera? Is that the same for police who are under attack? Are the incidents going up or are we just seeing it more on camera? What's the truth here.
Police under fire, Americans under fire. And all of it under COVID-19.
[22:20:02]
So, beginning a little bit later on this hour we're going to dig deep into what's going on in this country. And what it means for the future of policing. We're calling it outbreak, crime, protests, and COVID-19. It is an in-depth conversation that you won't want to miss tonight. Not going to politicize it. We're going to be honest about everything that's going on. Many of you won't like what you hear. Many of you will. But I implore you to watch because it may change some minds.
The president makes off the rails Rose Garden campaign speech ignoring the virus. Plus, breaking news on how the president and his former attorney general Jeff Sessions are responding to Sessions' electoral defeat tonight.
CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta and Kaitlan Collins both here. They're next.
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LEMON: At least 37 states, 37 are now seeing a rise in coronavirus cases and experts are predicting it's going to get worse. But the president just doesn't seem to want to talk about it.
Let's discuss now. Our CNN's Chief Medical Correspondent is Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and our White House correspondent is Kaitlan Collins. And they both join me. Good evening to both.
Kaitlan, coronavirus is surging. Hundreds are dying in this country every day but the president barely mentioned it in his Rose Garden -- in the Rose Garden today, instead, he just rambled about Joe Biden. And this is nothing to address what everyone can see that he's not handling this well.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, that didn't even really address what he was supposed to address in the Rose Garden which was China and Hong Kong. You heard him start on that but then he quickly went off topic for over an hour there where he barely took questions from reporters.
And Don, he only barely mentioned coronavirus. And the lengthiest that he spoke about it was to repeat that false claim about where he says that because there is more testing that is why there are more cases in the United States. Something that's been debunked by even his own health experts who say that is not the reason solely that we are seeing so many more cases in the United States.
But you know, just the president has really trying to put it behind him. And the question inside has become, and outside, you know, who is the president listening to and what is he focusing his time on? Is he focusing on the response like Americans have shown in polls that they want the president to do to focus on containing coronavirus, or is he instead focusing on stoking this fight with Dr. Anthony Fauci?
Something we have seen play out for several days now. And though the White House insisting yesterday they were not criticizing Dr. Fauci and there was no narrative of the president versus Dr. Fauci. Tonight, they allow the president's top trade adviser to write an op-
ed publicly attacking Dr. Fauci and questioning his judgment in the USA Today, something we should note the White House press office approved those op-eds before they go out from administration officials.
LEMON: Sanjay, Kaitlan mentioned Dr. Fauci and what is happening between Dr. Fauci and the president. But the president is making it out like the pandemic is over. But this is what we heard from the CDC director Robert Redfield today. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REDFIELD: I do think the fall and the winter of 2020 and 2021 are going to be probably one of the most difficult times that we have experienced in American public health.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Is Director Redfield right? He's made dire predictions before and then walked them back. I didn't say that this was going to be worse. I said it was going to be more difficult and potentially, you know, more, he says. But then, you know, he sort of, walked those things back.
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, sort of forced to parse his language a little bit. But I think, you know, the intent of what he is saying is pretty clear. And he, I guess he's been steadfast in that. I interviewed him in the middle of February. And he was -- he was echoing some of the same stuff even back then.
I think -- I think there's two things that really strike me. One is that we know that in the fall and winter, part of what Dr. Redfield is referring to is this idea of a second wave of coronavirus even though as we can tell by this, by the graphs that we're not out of the first wave. We may never get out of the first wave.
But the fact that that second wave maybe super-imposed on flu season. That's a big concern. Because flu patients oftentimes take up a lot of hospital resources and now if you have COVID patients at the same time, I mean that's a real problem.
But I think, you know, the other thing that strikes me about this is the sense of resignation to this. This is just the way it's going to be, you know? We're not talking about a national testing program. We're not talking about mask mandates. We're not talking about, you know, the reality of what should be happening with schools in the fall.
I mean, you know, I hate to draw comparison as we do sometimes to the European Union to so many Asian countries. But the sense that this was inevitable. The fall of this year, the fall of next year they are going to be the worst public health crisis in our lifetime. That is now, I think true. But it didn't necessarily have to be that way. And this idea that we're resigned to this is it's really frustrating at this point, middle of July. LEMON: Yes. To say the least, right? We -- so we've got some news on
the coronavirus vaccine Moderna is developing. What can you tell us, Sanjay?
GUPTA: Well, you know, this might be a bright spot, Don. It's still very early days. But, you know, there was this first, this was the first peer reviewed study we've seen on a U.S. vaccine candidate. So that, you know, we've been talking a lot about this, it was all based on press releases and pre-prints so now we have actual data.
And it was 45 patients and all healthy patients between ages 18 and 55. So very early study. Very small study. But what they showed was that these patients when they were given two shots of this vaccine, separated by about a month they did develop evidence of this neutralizing antibodies.
[22:29:56]
Now look on -- you saw on the screen there for a second the side effects are something that's worth noting. Because in the middle dose in the high dose patients did develop side effects. They were -- they were not -- they were temporary, they did not last very long. And they weren't strong enough to stop the trial. But some side effects were there.
And Don, keep in mind, these are healthy people. So, we'll see how it plays out as you sort of expand this to larger and larger population. What we know is it seems generally safe, and that, again, these neutralizing antibodies, these fighting antibodies were made in response to the vaccine.
The big question that we have to answer that everybody wants the answer to, is does that mean people will then be protected if they take this vaccine? Now we don't know the answer to that. That's why we got to do the next phase of trial.
But, Don, this is optimistic. I mean, what has happened over the last six months with medical advancements and the speed of which this has happened is something that typically takes three to nine years. So, if nothing else, the pace of medical progress has, I think forever been changed by what has happened with this pandemic. That's good news. Let's see if this translates further into good news as well.
LEMON: We certainly hope so. Thank you, Dr. Gupta. Thank you, Kaitlan. I appreciate it.
Nearly 60,000 cases of coronavirus reported across the country just today. Over 136,000 deaths reported so far. And my next guest is predicting almost 100,000 more deaths by October. The rising threat of the coronavirus across the country, next.
[22:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All across the country coronavirus cases are on the rise. Thirty-seven states are worse off now than they were last week. Seven are holding steady right now. And in three of the four most populous states the numbers, really, they are going the wrong way in a hurry. Are we heading for another shut down?
Joining me now to discuss Dr. Chris Murray, the director of the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington. And Michael Osterholm is the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policies and the author of "Deadliest Enemy: Our War Against Killer Germs." Quite a resume from both men there. Thank you, gentlemen for joining.
Dr. Osterholm, you first. The numbers really don't lie, the map of the coronavirus cases shows a sea of red. The virus is raging. What has to happen to stop the virus from infecting and killing more Americans?
MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICIES: People have to stop swapping air with each other. That's simple. And it's a real challenge in terms of trying to keep people far enough apart. Distancing and however else they can protect themselves. But right now, we're not doing a very good job of that at all.
LEMON: Yes. Dr. Murray, you got a new projection of coronavirus deaths tonight. Tell us about the numbers and where the new cases are coming from.
CHRISTOPHER MURRAY, DIRECTOR, INSTITUTE FOR HEALTH METRICS AND EVALUATION: So, we updated our forecast which now run out to November 1. And so, we're seeing 224,000 deaths by November 1. And you know, that increase in our forecast being driven by the big up surge in the ones we know about. Florida, Texas, Arizona, California.
But there is a longer list of states where deaths are going up as well as hospitalization. So that includes Louisiana, Kentucky, Mississippi, Nevada, and New Mexico. South Carolina it's very worrying. Tennessee and Utah. So those are our lists that are driving up the forecast as we look ahead.
LEMON: So, this whole idea about the, Dr. Murray, about the death numbers are down and therefore it's not a big issue or concern. That is hogwash.
MURRAY: Well, two weeks ago, you know, destine seem to be tracking the big surge of cases. But now we know for sure that both hospitalizations which are not affected by the number of tests. So that really tells us it's not testing. And then now we know that deaths are surging. In a place like Florida we've seen this big increase in deaths. So, it's very worrisome.
LEMON: Yes. Listen, the president won't issue a mandatory order on masks. Many Americans just won't wear them and that's the reason you -- these numbers are going up. A big reason. Talk about how many lives would be saved if people would just, if they would just listen, Dr. Osterholm.
OSTERHOLM: Well, again I want to come back and say we don't know how well ask actually protect. We should all use them. I support that very much. But we don't know how well they protect. But we do know distancing protects. And one of the challenges we continue to have as people get together in larger groups, in indoor air. And they just don't seem to understand the significance of this transmission. And I just want to add --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But doctor, can you explain the countries where people wear masks, they have a lot less -- they are a lot better off than we are. The transmissions are lower.
OSTERHOLM: Well, you have to be a little careful about that, Don. That's a lot like saying because I put a sign in my lawn this is no elephants allowed in Minnesota. We don't have any elephants there.
Clearly, masks should be worn. I'm saying that. But for example, in Hong Kong right now we have an outbreak that's emerging and it's a very substantial one. And it's mandatory masking there. In fact, there's a $5,000 fine not to wear your mask in public.
So, I think that we have to be very careful about understanding that if whatever we do to reduce the risk with mask, we can offset that by having a lot of people together still breathing the air that each other are sharing.
So, I think the really important message is that this is a critical issue of everything we can do to prevent transmission. Don't go out in public when you're sick. Number two, stay distance. The further away we get from people the better it is. And number three, go ahead and wear your mask. But don't count on any one of those things to be the thing that's going to save you.
LEMON: Dr. Murray, you know, parents are afraid to send their children back to school in this environment. Does it make any sense to do that when the virus is rising in so many places?
MURRAY: Well, before I answer that, Don, I just want to jump in on masks. We see the evidence on masks a little differently. We see it to be quite compelling and we think that masks reduce for an individual transmission by about a third.
[22:39:59]
But if the population level it can save more than 40,000 lives in the U.S. between now and November 1. And as a strategy that best strategy right now in the U.S. as a mask mandate. I agree with Dr. Osterholm that other things like keeping distance is a good idea. But the one thing we're not doing that well is wearing masks and that can have a really big impact.
On your question about schools, you know, part of the reason that we're all concerned about the return to school is not just what happens in the classroom between children and the teachers, but also the other things around school that happen. We know from back in March that when families and kids go to school
they interact, they have play dates, they have sports. So, it's the whole package around school that needs -- needs a lot more attention.
LEMON: All right. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it.
And next, it is the summer of coronavirus. The summer of protests. And now the summer of crime. What's behind it all? We're taking an in- depth look next on CNN tonight. You're going to want to stay with us.
[22:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: There is something really important I want to bring you tonight. Three huge stories going on in this country right now. And they're all connected. This an in-depth CNN Tonight report.
A special segment of our show outbreak, crime, protest, and COVID-19. America's living and dying through an unprecedented summer. The worsening pandemic. Protests in the street and now a surge in crime.
Tonight, we're taking a long hard look at how these major stories are colliding with each other and impacting all of us. First, our regular habits and institutions crippled by the coronavirus. A virus that has been proven to impact communities of color and the black population specifically more than other Americans.
Then the horrific death of George Floyd back in May as Minneapolis -- a Minneapolis police officer knelt on his neck igniting protests nationwide. Americans demanding reforms in policing. And end to systemic racism and police brutality. Much of it aimed at black Americans.
President Trump and his top aides hostile to the protest. Remember this? When he violently cleared peaceful protests so he could take a picture? Now crime is spiking in many of our cities for reasons we will explore and explain tonight on this program. While the president says this just a few hours ago.
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TRUMP: Look at what's happened in New York. Crime is up, shootings are up at numbers that nobody has ever seen before. Look at Chicago. What a disaster. And we're waiting for them to call us because we're all set to go. We have the FBI. We have homeland security. We have everybody ready to go. We have the National Guard. They're all ready to go.
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LEMON: But is this really the answer to getting the spikes in crime under control? And just a few moments I'm going to speak to two top officials of the New York City Police Department. And we'll look at the expanding role of the black lives matter movement. Among my guests tonight, Deputy Commissioner John Miller and Chief
Jeffrey Maddrey of the NYPD. Kirsten John Foy, president and founder of Arc of Justice, a group that advocates for social and economic justice.
CNN national correspondent Sara Sidner who extensively covered the protests in Minneapolis after George Floyd's death and race and police protests all over this country. And Charles Ramsey, the former police chief in Washington, D.C. who also served as Philadelphia's police commissioner.
But first, here's CNN Brynn Gingras on what's behind the spike in crime in America's cities.
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Fourteen shootings in 24 hours on New York City streets Monday including the killing of a teenager shot in the head.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are not going for this (muted) -- so I'm talking to the streets. You know who is killing who.
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GINGRAS: A community outraged after a 1-year-old while sitting in his stroller was killed in a Brooklyn Park. More gun violence has been felt in cities big and small from coast to coast. In Seattle.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are working very hard to reduce the number of shootings here in Seattle.
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GINGRAS: Chicago, Charleston, Philadelphia, Atlanta.
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MAYOR KEISHA LANCE BOTTOMS (D), ATLANTA, GA: I hate to use the word a perfect storm but it's where we are in this country right now.
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GINGRAS: In New York.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There has to be a price for carrying an illegal firearm in New York City. And right now, the price isn't high enough.
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GINGRAS: The NYPD points to new recidivism data showing so far this year police re-arresting 1,452 individuals for major felonies. An offender who police say would otherwise likely be held in jail but due to state bail reform laws which went into effect this year were released. That's 771 more arrests of the same group than this time last year.
On top of that, courts in New York and many states have not been fully operational because of the coronavirus restrictions. Meaning cases aren't being prosecuted quickly. Grand juries aren't being convened and there are limited jury's election procedures.
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LUCY LANG, DIRECTOR, INSTITUTE FOR INNOVATION IN PROSECUTION, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINCAL JUSTICE: In the absence of courts operating, and many people aren't coming through the courts, we're not seeing the same level of debriefings that are traditionally part of the kind of police work that we rely on to be able to respond to violent crime and often enables prevention.
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GINGRAS: A spokesperson for the Brooklyn district attorney's office the borough which saw most of the shootings Monday told CNN, quote, "for us the biggest issue is there are no grand juries. So we can't indict felony cases."
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Much hard (Ph) not just for police brutality, do this for the black on black. It could be your child.
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GINGRAS: In the wake of George Floyd's murder in Minneapolis, protestors cried out coast to coast for changes in policing. And the defunding of departments. The demands met with swift reform.
On Tuesday, Pennsylvania following in New York's footsteps, the governor signing two measures into law, which addressed the hiring of officers and increases their training including for implicit bias.
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JOSH SHAPIRO (D), PENNSYLVANIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: Let me say this very clearly. Black lives matter. I'll say it again. Black lives matter. But saying it, that's just not enough. We must listen, and we must take action.
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GINGRAS: Across America, the continuous criticism and reform measures said to be weighing on the rank and file.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MONAHAN: If you're out on the streets and every time you turn on the television, they're saying how much they hate you and how much they don't need you and how unimportant you are to the safety of your citizens it does a lot for their moral.
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GINGRAS: Over a one-week period at the beginning of this month, NYPD retirements soared. More than 400 percent compared to the same week last week. A detective who is considering retirement told CNN, every day the pension section sends out a notice of who went that day and filed. It used to be a page, maybe two at the most. The other day it was six pages.
Meanwhile, departments are striving to do better knowing how vital it is to build relationships with the communities they serve. The NYPD instituting changes within, including assigning a new head to community affairs with the task of reimagining community policing.
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JEFFREY MADDREY, CHIEF, NYPD COMMUNITY AFFAIRS: When people start talking about issues of systemic racism and police brutality, these are the hard conversations that I'm prepared to take on that I will take on it.
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GINGRAS: Bu tin the end experts say it needs to be all hands-on deck to turn this alarming trend around, from police to courts to communities.
Brynn Gingras, CNN, New York.
LEMON: Now I want to bring in John Miller. John Miller is NYPD's deputy commissioner for intelligence and counterterrorism, and Chief Jeffrey Maddrey of the NYPD's Community Affairs Bureau.
Gentlemen, I'm so happy to have both of you on. Thank you so much for doing this. It is really important. Deputy Commissioner Miller, I'm going to start with you. New York is losing its status as one of the safest big cities in the country. Spike in murders. Tell me why, what is happening right now in New York?
JOHN MILLER, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER, NYPD INTELLIGENCE AND COUNTERTERRORISM: You know, Don, you make a really interesting point there, because we're not one of those cities, and you name a few in those stories that was plagued with violence.
If you go back a year ago, we were the place that have reengineered policing in a complex city of 8.6 million people where e not only crime was going down, but at the same time we had broken a lot of the old theories. Well, if arrest goes up, crime goes down. If you make more stops you get more guns.
By doing what we call precision policing which is clearly focused, we had crime going down while arrests were going down, while our issuing of summons was going down. And the benefits for our civilian complaints against police were going down, use of force was going down, our use of firearms by our police officers was the lowest national average among major cities.
Everything was trending in the right direction. And then what you see is sea changes that came very suddenly. A package of five or six laws, bail reform, discovery rules that said victims and witnesses' names would be handed to defendant's lawyers within a matter of weeks of the arrest. Even people who called 911 raised the age for juvenile offenders.
Look, Don, the criminal justice system is a complex ecosystem. If you make a change here, you have to make an adjustment there. That was an awful lot of changes, not small ones, big ones that happened all at once. You throw in COVID behind that, you have a real problem.
So right now, if you want a good story, our overall crime is down. That's good news. If you want the bad news, our shootings are up, and when you're America's safest large city and your shootings are going up to levels you haven't seen since 1995, you have to ask why. And I'm sure in this discussion we'll get to those whys.
LEMON: Yes.
MILLER: But we've got the numbers and we've got a lot of the causes.
LEMON: So, let me ask, before I bring Chief Maddrey in, so then are you're saying -- and this all -- many of the changes that you said took place at the first of the year, right, John?
MILLER: Yes.
LEMON: OK. So, are you saying those changes should have happened, should not have happened or we should have thought about it more, or should have it was too much at once? What are you saying here, John?
MILLER: So, the NYPD has long been a place that embraces reforms but in a sensible way. So, each one of those changes in the law were something that we could have adjusted to.
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Again, it's a complex system. You turn one dial up here, you turn one down there with minor adjustments and changes to the law. Instead, the state legislature pushed all these all laws through as one big package without consulting law enforcement and when law enforcement put their ideas forward, no changes were made to those laws. So, they were passed as a package.
Now they went back and going back and made a couple of adjustments to one of those laws but not the ones that are going to be helpful in this.
So, doing something this drastic has to be a collaborative process. One with legislators on the slate, city council members in the city, prosecutors and police at a table where they'd say, this is the change we want to make, how do we make it work so we don't have an unintended consequence, and that is what didn't happen.
LEMON: Thank you, John, for that. Chief Maddrey, again, thank you so much for being here. I'm so grateful. So, I want to play something for you before I get you to respond. This is police chief Terrence Monahan. He spoke to 1010 WINS radio here in New York today. He talked about the plain clothes and anticrime being - unit being disbanded. Listen to this.
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MONAHAN: There is a feeling on the street that the police are handcuffed, that they were not out there as aggressively as we were in the past. The new law that was passed by the city council has cops hesitant. They are fearful that they may be arrested if they take some proactive type enforcement.
The disbanding of anti-crime obviously has a huge effect. Those are our best cops out on the street grabbing gun. So, there's a feeling that it's safe to carry a gun on the street. So, we are looking for ways to change that mentality out on the streets by getting different units out there focusing on the guns that were on the streets right now.
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LEMON: So Chief Maddrey, I want to know what you think of what Chief Monahan said and also respond to John. But do you believe criminals are emboldened right now following the protests and the increased scrutiny on police? Do you think that criminals are emboldened?
MADDREY: I do, I do, Don. Our anti-crime unit being disbanded, a lot of the conversation you hear in the street now where, you know, the police are being attacked, the police are being, you know, disrespected and denigrated, it's having an effect on the officers.
Our anti-crime unit was the one unit that went out there and took on the most dangerous job in this department, going out there, trying to find people who are carrying illegal guns. So that unit being disbanded of course hurts the moral of those officers who are doing their job and other officers in the department.
But I mean, the NYPD is a resilient department. We find ways to adjust. And we're going to go out there and continue to job and try to keep people safe and keep our communities safe.
LEMON: You know, Chief, shooting incidents were already up in 2020 by over 20 percent when the NYPD Commissioner Shea announced last month that he was disbanding NYPD's anti-crime unit. So, is this about shifting mentality on the streets, or is this something else?
MADDREY: Well, of course it shifts the mentality on the street because the officers who were out there doing the job who a lot of the bad guys and the bad actors knew, they know that they're not on -- they're not out there doing their job anymore that they will not perform those duties anymore.
But, you know, public safety is an ecosystem, and we have to call everybody to the table to be responsible. All the city agencies, all the community-based organizations -- they all have to play a part in public safety.
Anti-crime being disbanded is just one portion of it. All city agencies, all elected officials, all leaders, we all play a part in this ecosystem of public safety. We have to reduce unnecessary criminal justice contacts where many members are in the community, but we at the same time have to increase public safety, and I think this is part of what we have to do now in New York City.
LEMON: OK. Deputy Commissioner, let me bring you back in here. Because and this is something news that happened today I want you to respond to. The president saying that he has the National Guard and others ready to jump in. Are his remarks helpful? Does the NYPD need outside help from the National Guard or outside help at all?
MILLER: So, we don't need help from the National Guard. It's not that we don't have the requisite manpower for basic policing, and the National Guard wouldn't know what to do in these cases any way.
His other comments about working with homeland security, we work with homeland security investigations. We work very closely with the FBI on violent crime and gangs.
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We're doing all that already. Our problem is not going to be solved with soldiers with rifles on the street.
