Return to Transcripts main page
Don Lemon Tonight
President Trump's Shaky Poll Numbers Pushes Him To Wear A Mask?; Promising Trial Results From COVID Vaccines; Governor Of Missouri Says It's OK If Kids Get The Virus?; Mayor Ted Wheeler (D), Portland, Oregon Is Interviewed About Why He Wants The Federal Officers To Leave Their Cities. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired July 20, 2020 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
Nearly 141,000 Americans have died of the coronavirus. More than 3.8 million Americans have been infected. And the president who has been in denial about this virus from day one finally, finally, puts out a photo of himself wearing a mask. Can you believe it? He did it today wearing a mask, tweeting many people say it's patriotic to wear a mask. A face mask when you can't socially distance. And going on to boast there is nobody more patriotic than me, your favorite president.
But here are the facts. This is more about poll numbers and patriotism. More about saving his own political skin than American's lives. I'll tell you why in a second. But CNN -- sources telling CNN that it was the president's plummeting poll numbers that finally convince him to send the tweet.
Here it is. Poll numbers like these. Fifty-four percent in the latest Washington Post/ABC News poll trust Joe Biden to handle the coronavirus. Just 34 percent trust Trump. And this must have been landed hard in the White House.
In the last Fox News poll, 81 percent say they wear a mask in public all or most of the time. So, here's the question. Will the president follow the lead? Or is his mask wearing on Twitter today just another photo-op, a photo-op just like gassing peaceful protestors so that he could have that photo-op holding a bible in front of St. Johns Church? Is this what it is?
Among the people not asking these questions just giving a big old Atta boy is the president's ride or die. Lindsey Graham tweeting this. I couldn't agree more. Well done, Mr. President. Why don't we wait to see if the president wears one again? And again. Right? That's what we should do. And again, every day as many of us do, without expecting pats on the back for it.
Here's what he said on April 3rd when he announced that new CDC guidelines calling on Americans to wear masks. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I think wearing a face mask as I greet presidents, prime ministers, dictators, kings, queens. I don't know. Somehow, I don't see it for myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Boy, poll numbers will make you change your mind. Right? Well, the day the president said that, he said he just couldn't see wearing a mask to greet dictators by the way. You have to greet dictators. That day the death toll in this country was over 7,400. Well, tonight, 109 days later, that death toll is now nearly 141,000.
And I want you to just listen to what the president says about resuming coronavirus briefings after nearly three months.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, we had very successful briefings. I was doing them. We had a lot of people watching. Record numbers watching in the history of cable television. Television there's never been anything like it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Very successful. Record numbers of people watching. And also dying, by the way. What else would you expect from a man who made his name in reality T.V.? Then goes on to promotes tomorrow's episode.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: And so, I think we'll start that probably starting tomorrow. I'll do it at five o'clock. Like we were doing. We had a good slot. And a lot of people were watching. And that's a good thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: A good time slot. That is the reality T.V. president. But let's remember why those briefings stopped. This is way back in April.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I said supposing you brought the light inside the body in which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you're going to test that too? Sounds interesting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We'll get the right folks who could.
TRUMP: Right. And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: If you didn't see that and I told you the president said it you wouldn't believe me, would you? This president cares more about seeming to be right than he does about doing the right thing. I want you to listen to what he tells Fox News' Chris Wallace.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I'll be right eventually.
(CROSSTALK)
CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I understand.
TRUMP: I will be right. Eventually. It's going to disappear. I'll say it again. It's going to disappear.
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: But does that discredit you?
TRUMP: And I'll be right. I don't think so. Right. I don't think so. You know why it doesn't discredit me, because I've been right probably more than anybody else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:05:03]
LEMON: I don't have a lot of time. If I started laughing, I'd probably just go on and have a fit here. But that is laughable. Right more than anybody else? He sure wasn't right about the spread of the virus in the country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We have it totally under control. It's one person coming in from China. And we have it under control.
When you have 15 people and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero. That's a pretty good job we've done.
We had a lot of people who were saying maybe we shouldn't do anything. Just ride it. They say ride it like a cowboy. Just ride it. Ride that sucker right through.
You know it is going away. And it will go away. And we're going to have a great victory.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He wasn't right about testing, either.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Anybody that wants a test can get a test.
Now we have tested almost 40 million people. By so doing, we showcases 99 percent of which are totally harmless.
If we didn't do testing, instead of testing over 40 million people, if we did half the testing, we'd have half the cases. If we did another you cut that in half, we'd have yet again half of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: What was that fuzzy math? Maybe we just say that's some fuzzy math. The fact is, if we tested half as many people, we would have the exact same number of cases. Testing doesn't cause cases. It tells you who is infected who might be walking around unknowingly infecting other people. And speak of laughable, there's this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: California locking down begun. Florida, deadliest day of the entire pandemic. Hospitals at capacity on a number of places around the country. Shortages of testing. Shortages of personal protective equipment for nurses and doctors. A lot of people say this is because we don't have a national plan. You talk about states. We don't have a national plan. Do you take responsibility for that?
TRUMP: Look, I take responsibility always for everything. Because it's ultimately my job too. I have to get everybody in line.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. He takes responsibility always for everything. It's my job because I have to get everybody in line. Always for everything. There's also a tape for everything. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Yes. No, I don't take responsibility at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The president also insisting falsely that the United States is number one. One of the lowest of mortality rates.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think it's the opposite. I think we have one of the lowest mortality rates.
WALLACE: That's not true sir.
TRUMP: Well, we're going to take a look.
WALLACE: We had 900 deaths in a single day --
TRUMP: We will take a look.
WALLACE: -- this week.
TRUMP: Ready?
WALLACE: You can check it out.
TRUMP: Can you please get me the mortality rate? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
TRUMP: Kayleigh is right here. I heard we have one of the lowest maybe the lowest mortality rate anywhere in the world. Do you have the numbers please? Because I heard we had the best mortality rate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Can you get me those numbers? He did that more than once. And each time, it wasn't true. He wants to defund the police, he wants to abolish the police. Then it's not there. And then we have one of the lowest and then he looks and it's not there.
It's just not true. First of all, there's no way to call this the best when 141,000 Americans are dead. I want you to look at this. This is Johns Hopkins chart of deaths per 100,000 residents in the 20 most affected countries. OK?
The U.S., get this everyone, the U.S. is the third worst. Seventeen countries including Brazil, Iran, Kirghizstan, and Bangladesh. All have fewer deaths per 100,000. But what really is disturbing about this is what this president says in response to the question will you accept the results of the election?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think mail-in voting is going to rig the election. I really do.
WALLACE: Are you suggesting that you might not accept the results of the election?
TRUMP: I have to see.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, the President of the United States refusing to commit to accepting the results of our next election. Refusing to commit to accepting the foundation of our democracy. And going on to say this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Can you give a direct answer. You will accept the answer?
TRUMP: I have to see. Look, you -- I have to see. I'm not going to just say yes. I'm not going to say no. And I didn't the last time either.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:10:05]
LEMON: So, I'll say it again. The President of the United States is refusing to commit to accepting the foundation of our democracy. Our free and fair elections. And as for the president's let's call it what it is, OK, his lie that voting by mail leads to massive fraud. It is completely untrue.
In fact, there are many more cases of eligible voters. Listen to me, many more cases of eligible voters who didn't receive their mail ballots on time. And were therefore potentially disenfranchised.
It is especially outrageous for this president to try to cast doubt on our elections as the nation mourns Congressman John Lewis who literally fought and bled for the right to vote. But I guess the president doesn't put much stock in the congressman's sacrifices. As the news about one of the greatest heroes in this country this country has ever produced.
As that news was spreading on Friday night the president was up late tweeting about all kind of stuff including congratulations Tammy Bruce on guess hosting Hannity before he mange to tweet about John Lewis 13 hours later.
Maybe he was using that time to reflect on the fact that John Lewis actually helped make America great. I said it.
Now I want to bring in Dr. Jonathan Reiner. He is the director of the Cardiac Catherization Program at the George Washington University Hospital, and also David Axelrod, the former senior adviser to President Barack Obama.
Gentlemen, good evening. Thank you so much for joining us. Good to see both of you. I wish it was under better circumstances.
Dr. Reiner, let's talk about encouraging masks. Holding tele- rallies. Actually, acknowledging there is a problem in states like Florida and Texas. Why did it take more than 140,000 people to die, Americans to die for the president to get to this point?
JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Because I think the president is all about the president. And finally, when he realized that the way the pandemic has rolled out in the United States was going to cost him the election, now he finds there's a sense of urgency.
The CDC recommended masks for everyone on April 3, 108 days ago. On April 3 the U.S. had 7,600 deaths. So, in this interim with the president refusing to embrace universal mask wearing in this country. And I'll tell you that he still hasn't done that. He still hasn't force, you know, forcefully told the country, if you go out wear a mask.
But in that interim of 108 days, over 130,000 Americans have died. My cousin, one of my closest friend's father. How many tens of thousands of people have died as a consequence of this man's stubborn ignorance?
LEMON: Doctor, if the president actually cared about getting this virus under control, wouldn't he issue a federal mask mandate? You were -- you were sort of intimating that but you didn't quite say it. But wouldn't it be a federal mask mandate if he really cared about this?
REINER: Yes. Why doesn't he come out tomorrow if he wants to make a big splash in the news. And I will be the first person tomorrow night to stand up and applaud the president. Come out at the briefing and say ladies and gentlemen, the first thing I'm going to do today at this briefing is sign this executive order mandating masks to be worn in the United States when in public. Do it.
LEMON: Yes.
REINER: He should do it.
LEMON: David, I want to bring you in. The president cares about his poll numbers and they have been dismal. Is this a sign that the president's staff and maybe his new campaign manager are getting through about how much trouble he's actually in? Because he certainly wasn't taking pictures, or posting pictures, I should say, on Twitter with him wearing a mask before.
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I think it's absolutely the case. I must say that tweet was rather tortured. Some people say it's patriotic to wear masks.
REINER: Yes.
AXELROD: Why does he say about wearing mask? But even on Sunday, Don, you know, you heard some of the same memes we've heard for weeks and months about testing, about the mortality rate, all wrong. And so, you know, they maybe dragging him to another place. But they're dragging him rather slowly.
But the reason they're dragging him is very clear. In these polls, you know, just about a third of the country approves of his handling of the virus. That number has been going steadily down and with it has gone his overall approval number and the gap between himself and Vice President Biden.
[22:14:59]
So, he is in a political mess here. It is a mess largely of his own making. And, you know, the question is whether he has the discipline and the ability to turn around and acknowledge his error and take a different direction. He did it before.
Remember, in March, he was dismissive of the virus one day and the next day he declared war, and then he abandoned the war a few weeks after that. So, you know, it could be --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And the he said I knew it was a pandemic all along from the beginning. Right?
AXELROD: Yes. I mean, look, this has been, I think the doctor had it right. What we've learned -- the president is really has been unmasked by this virus and this crisis. He has subjugated what was his duty to lead the country through this crisis to his, what he perceived as his political needs. He was worried about the how the economy would be affected by the steps that had to be taken and how that might affect his reelection chances, so he has been in denial and delusion. And as a result, we've had unnecessary death and unnecessary suffering.
And I don't know if he can put -- I hope as the doctor said, I hope that he turns 180 degrees starting tomorrow when he begins his new five o'clock press conference show. But, you know, we haven't seen that kind of discipline that kind of ability to acknowledge error. That kind of ability to change direction based on fact and we'll see if that happens tomorrow.
LEMON: Well let's stick with this for a little bit, David. Because sources are telling CNN that a group of Republican governors have weekly calls to compare notes on the pandemic and dealing with the federal government sometimes venting about mixed messages. What does it say about the lack of leadership that is coming from the White House?
AXELROD: Well, you know, these governors are now wrestling with this problem. He threw it to them. Remember, he said this is up to the states. The states have to take care of this. And the governors most of them are earnestly trying to do that without the assistance or all the assistance they need from the federal government.
So, you can see why their frustrated is weld up here. But what's remarkable is he's had an iron grip on this party of his for the last three and a half years. And now the virus is forcing governors to separate themselves from him. And he may now have to line himself up back with those governors who are ordering masks to be worn now in order to keep -- keep his own supporters in line here.
LEMON: Yes. David, doctor, thank you both. I appreciate your time.
Promising early results on three different vaccines but nearly half of Americans say they wouldn't get a vaccine if it were available today. We'll going to look at why that is and how it can change. That's next.
[22:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So, coronavirus is surging in at least 31 states as hot spots like Florida struggle with not enough ICU beds. Twenty states seeing spikes in deaths from this time last week as the number of people who have died from the virus in the U.S. approaches 141,000.
So, joining me now is Michael Osterholm. He is the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policies and the author of "Deadliest Enemy: Our War Against Killer Germs." Professor, thank you so much for joining. You know, as you look at the various hot spots around the country right now, what are your concerns? What concerns you the most?
MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICIES: Well, first of all they are hot spots. But they are not the only hot spots. We're going to see over the course of the next month or two additional hot spots showing up all over the country.
This virus is out of the control. Not just in a few states but in most states right now. And even though states that are still relatively lower in number. If you look at the trend data it's very concerning. It looks just like Florida and Texas. And California look like three to four weeks ago.
So, you know, I just keep are minding people we're in the early days of this pandemic. And it's going to keep unfolding for the months ahead.
LEMON: My goodness. But before I get to the other thing -- I thought it was supposed to like go away and subside with the heat and the humidity?
OSTERHOLM: Well, you may recall, Don -- and thank you for having me as a guest on your show on multiple evenings. You and I have had this discussion before. And you may recall as early as May I kept telling you that, you know, there were just a few percent of the population that had been infected and this thing was not going to rest until it had infected at least 50 to 70 percent of the population. And then it would then slow down.
And it's doing exactly what we predicted it would do. Once we let our foot off the brake in terms of trying to contain it like other countries haven't done by the way, which have contained it. It just continues to burn.
So, think of this right now as a big national forest fire that's looking for human wood to burn. And until we make a decision as humans to suppress those virus activities, it's just going to keep doing what it's doing.
LEMON: Professor, thank you for that. Listen, I know that. I know your feelings on wearing masks. So, but with that said, Vice President Pence and the White House task force now emphasizing the importance of masks on a call with governors. I want you to listen to what Dr. Birx said then we'll talk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEBORAH BIRX, COORDINATOR, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE: What would happen is if 100 percent mask use in public areas, closing bars, limiting out -- limiting indoor gatherings and decreasing dining capacity. When we modeled it, it came very close to the impact of sheltering in place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, do you believe that we can achieve that in this country given how this has gone so far?
OSTERHOLM: Well, first of all, let me be very clear so everyone is aware of what my position on masks are since you suggested you know my position. You know, I say wear them. I have continued to say wear them. But what I have also said that the -- (CROSSTALK)
LEMON: You don't believe there's concrete evidence that --
(CROSSTALK)
[22:25:01]
OSTERHOLM: Well, it's not even so much concrete evidence. It's how much do they contribute to protecting you. And so, I say wear them. Let's not make any mistake about that.
But what I worry about, Don, and I see this happen over and over again were documented is, people once they wear one then feel like I'm covered. I'm taken care of. And it's the distancing that is still very, very critical. It is by far the most important thing we can do, particularly indoors, in crowds, in places like bars.
And so, all these things are additive. Not one of them is the decisive thing that says yes or no. That's a vaccine. I mean, if masks were that good, we wouldn't need vaccines. But mask can play a role.
So, I just want to say that, you know, as I was portrayed today if you close bars and restaurants and did that, we'd still have a hell of a problem in this country. It's all about distancing. And that's what actually drove down the numbers last spring was we really did create a lot of distancing.
And until we do that, we'll have an impossible time driving this virus down to a level which then we can test and trace on a routine basis like other countries are doing, and open up our economy again safely.
LEMON: Trial results for three different vaccines were released today including one from the University of Oxford. All three showing evidence that they can safely produce an immune response. This is promising. How promising do you think it is though?
OSTERHOLM: Well, I liken it to learning how to ride a bike. You know, the real success is when you can ride it all the way down to the end of the block and not tip over.
What they've done is so far is shown they get on the seat. And what I mean by that is we would have expected these kinds of results from these vaccines or they shouldn't have been put into humans to begin with.
So, I sure don't want to sound pessimistic. I'm glad that we have the results. I think this is a very important step going forward. But we're still a long, long way from having a safe and effective coronavirus vaccines.
And as you know we've had this discussion also on the show, is the fact that we still don't understand the immunology of this virus infection. How are we protected? Is it durable immunity?
Meaning, does it last more than a few months. We're already hearing about more and more people who are supposedly are having repeat infections. I want to be careful to say we don't know that that's happened. But these are the kind of things we have to yet understand. How long is this protection last if we have it? That's when we'll know whether we really have a great vaccine or not.
LEMON: Professor, I always learn something when you're on and the audience does as well. So, thank you so much. I appreciate it. See you soon.
OSTERHOLM: Thank you very much for having me.
LEMON: Thank you.
OSTERHOLM: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: President Trump minimizing the coronavirus repeatedly claiming it boils down to the sniffles in kids. Why that claim is not only false but it's dangerous. That's next.
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: President Trump and his team are trying some new moves. We have been talking about them tonight to make the American people think that he is on top of the coronavirus. After more than 140,000 Americans got killed on his watch.
OK, until -- until you remember this, among other things the president has compared this deadly pandemic repeatedly to the sniffles.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Many of those cases are young people that would heal in a day. They have the sniffles and we put it down as a test. Many of them, don't forget, I guess it's like 99.7 percent. People are going to get better, and in many cases, they are going to get better very quickly.
So, we have cases all over the place. Most of those cases immediately get better, they get, you know, people, the young people. They have sniffles and two days later, they are fine.
If we didn't do testing, we'd have no cases. Other countries they don't test millions. So up to almost 30 million tests. So, when you do 30 million, you're going to have a kid with sniffles and they'll say it's coronavirus.
And again, we have kids with sniffles and all of a sudden, we report a case, and there are no danger whatsoever.
I said to my people slow the testing down please. They test. And they test. We have tests of people who don't know what's going on. We got tests -- we have another one over here. The young man is 10 years old. He's got the sniffles. He'll recover in about 15 minutes.
The vast majority many people don't even know they have it. They have it or they have sniffles or they have a very minor sign. And they recover.
At the same time some people got sniffles and they didn't even realize they had a problem. And they are supposedly immune.
And then some people don't even know they had it. It could be sniffles.
They have a cold, they have the sniffles, in some cases they have nothing. They have it but they literally don't have anything.
You know, in many cases, when you catch this, it's very light. You don't even know there's a problem. Sometimes they just get the sniffles.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Think about this, let's put yourself into the future a little bit. Come back to me on camera please just for a second before we go there. Think about this. How all of these sound bites that we play. Think about how that's going to play in history when you look back or listen to this over the course of history, the sound of his voice and the president downplaying a sickness saying that it's equivalent to the sniffles.
Just think about that. Because sometimes we were just so close to it, we live in the moment. Think about when we look back what this is all going to -- embarrassing. OK. Sorry, guys. Here we go.
Since the virus first hit this country about six months ago, more than 3.8 million Americans have been infected. Look at the chart in front of you. And more than 60,000 cases are added to that tally every single day. That's why I say when we look back on this, what are we going to think?
One of the biggest debates right now is how do we send kids back to school with the virus raging out of control in many states. The president pushing state and local officials to reopen schools without offering any assurances that kids will be safe.
And he's not the only one downplaying the virus. I want you to listen to this. This is Republican governor, the Republican governor of Missouri, Mike Parson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[22:35:01]
GOV. MIKE PARSON (R-MO): These kids have to get back to school. They are at the lowest risk possible. And if they do get COVID-19 which they will, and they will when they go to school, they're not going to the hospitals. They're not going to have to sit in doctor's offices. They'll going to go home, and they're going to get over it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Are you cool with that for your kids? Governor Parson is cavalier about the danger of COVID-19 poses to children. It's important to point out that children have died from this disease. And if children become infected, they can potentially pass it onto older adults. In the home, in their home who are more vulnerable.
This weekend we learn about a study of tens of thousands of people in South Korea. Study that concludes that children under 10 years of age transmit the virus much less than adults do. However, it says that kids between 10 and 19 can pass on the virus as easily as adults can.
So much for the sniffles. Several mayors telling the Trump administration to get federal troops out of their cities after scenes of unidentified authorities detaining protestors in Portland. What would you say if you saw it in another country? Portland's mayor joins me next.
[22:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Fascinating story we're about to report now. I suggest you watch it. Because the mayor of six major cities have written a letter to the Attorney General Bill Barr and the acting DHS Secretary Chad Wolf condemning the deployment of federal forces in their cities.
The mayors of Seattle, Chicago, Atlanta, Portland, Washington, D.C., and Kansas City. Here's what they write in part. They say, it is unacceptable and chilling that this administration has formed and deployed the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Rapid Deployment Unit and is sending federal authorities to conduct crowd control on city streets and detain individuals.
That comes after more protests in Portland over the weekend including shocking scenes like this one. With federal officers savagely beating and pepper spraying a peaceful protestor.
Well, my next guest is one of the mayors who signed the letter. Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler. Mayor, thank you so much. I appreciate your time. And I'm grateful that you're on.
MAYOR TED WHEELER (D), PORTLAND, OREGON: I appreciate it being here.
LEMON: You have protests in your city for more than 50 days now. But the escalation and violence is really a recent change. What happened?
WHEELER: This is just crazy. We were coming to the end of our nightly demonstrations at least the part where people were vandalizing things and some scattered acts of violence. But we saw the energy coming out of that. We thought it would be done in a couple of days.
But then the federal government sent in dozens if not hundreds of troops, they engaged in what I would describe is really abhorrent tactics. And basically, they blew the lid off of this. Since they have been here, we had huge crowds come downtown. We had more violence. We'd more violence. They basically kicked the hornets' nest.
LEMON: Yes. Let's put -- let's put some of this video. This video is so disturbing. You have camouflage men taking a protestor away in an unmarked van. And we have since learned that they are CBP officers but you didn't ask for this assistance.
WHEELER: No.
LEMON: How are local law enforcement officials and residents reacting to this? Talk to me. Sorry.
WHEELER: They're not happy about it. Our local and our state law enforcement officials, elected officials were unified. We didn't ask for these troops in our city. We don't want these troops in our city. And the tactics they're using are very un-American.
And everybody should pay attention to this. They're coming into our city. They are in unmarked vans. They pull people off the streets. They don't necessarily have probable cause. And they don't actually identify who they are to the people they're pulling into the vans. So, there is some really serious constitutional issues here.
LEMON: OK. A couple of things. Everyone they pull off the street have they been charged? I hear some people they just let them go and not charge them.
WHEELER: They not only not charge them, in some cases, they didn't even identify who they were. So, we have people who have come back and they've said I feel like I was kidnapped. They didn't tell me why they pulled me into the van, who they were, why they were here. They didn't have insignia. And that's just not the kind of thing you see on the streets of America.
LEMON: What about, you know, the conservatives are very much pro- state's right. What does that say about this case?
WHEELER: Well, in this case they are tramping our state's rights. Our governor, our two United States senators, our local law enforcement officials, elected leaders, we're all basically saying go away. They have definitely escalated the situation here. They've created more danger for both our local residents as well as our local law enforcement. And we don't want them here.
And the part that's even scarier for us and the part I really want other people in America to pay attention to is the president has admitted that he is sending his federal troops into cities based on the political affiliation of the people who run those cities.
In other words, what he describes is liberal Democrat cities. And that in my opinion is a blatant abuse of federal policing power. And it's a threat to democracy. We should all be very concerned about this.
LEMON: Yes. Besides being grammatically incorrect. It should be Democratic cities. You believe the president, President Trump is breaking the laws and these developments may even be unconstitutional. What recourse do you have at this point?
WHEELER: Well, we have the courts. We, as I say our state attorney general has sought legal action against the Trump administration. She believes as do I, that these tactics are unconstitutional. In the United States you still have to have probable cause. People still have their rights. And those rights seem to be trampled on right now.
[22:45:08]
LEMON: Mayor, thank you for your time. Please come back. And I hope the next time --
(CROSSTALK)
WHEELER: Thanks for having me.
LEMON: -- you'll come back there's better news. Thank you so much.
WHEELER: Thank you.
LEMON: I want to make sure that you know about my podcast, Silence is Not an Option where we take on tough conversations about race in America, being black in America, and the social issue that we're dealing now as it results to race in this country. Find it on Apple podcast or your favorite podcast app.
President Trump defending confederate symbols as the U.S. grapples with its history of racism. So how do we move forward when the president won't?
[22:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: In the middle of a pandemic that has killed over 140,000 Americans, United States is grappling with its history of racial inequality. But after more than a month of protests and changes across American society, the president still defends confederate statues and symbols.
So, how does a country move forward? I'm honored tonight to have on Ibram X. Kendi. He is a professor of history and international relations at American University the author of "How to be an Antiracist", and also "Racist Baby" right, Ibram. Good evening. How are you?
IBRAM X. KENDI, PROFESSOR OF HISTORY & INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: Good evening. How are you?
LEMON: I'm doing very well. Thank you for coming on to discuss this.
In his Fox News interview with Chris Wallace, President Trump said this about the effort to rename military bases named after confederate generals, here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I don't care what the military is military says, I do -- I'm supposed to make the decision. Fort Bragg is a big deal. We won two World Wars. Nobody even knows General Bragg. We won two World Wars. Go to that community where Fort Bragg is, in a great state, I love that state.
Go to the community, say, how do you like the idea of renaming Fort Bragg? And then, what are we going to name it? We are going to name it after the Reverend Al Sharpton. What are you going to name it? Tell me what you're going to name it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So, professor, General Bragg was a traitor and a terrible general. Aside from that, the president is evoking Reverend Al Sharpton. That is telling, isn't it?
KENDI: It is. And I think to me, this is kind of indisputable, you know. The vice president of the confederacy, Alexander Stephens in 1862 said that the confederate states were built on the great truth that the Negro is not equal to the white man and slavery and subordination to the superior races is a natural condition.
The confederacy was based on white supremacy and the efforts to maintain slavery. This is indisputable. And to have any place of honor for a confederate general or anyone associated with the confederacy is simply a slap in the face of black people, it's a slap in the face of freedom and equality.
LEMON: I want to play this. This is from last, where the former NFL player and co-host of Undisputed, Shannon Sharpe, said this in response to Mark Cuban's comments that white people need to avoid the urge to be defensive when talking about race. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHANNON SHARPE, CO-HOST, UNDISPUTED: If you talk all way real about America and try to have an open and honest dialogue conversation with white America --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
SHARPE: -- then it would go to the fact, it would tear down the very foundation the very fabric in which America -- they say America was built on. America was not built on freedom. America was built on racism. And the backbone, the life blood, the economy of America was built on the backs of slaves. That is fact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: How do we have that conversation?
KENDI: I think, you can simultaneously talk about that, for instance, and during the American Revolution, it simultaneously freed some people and kept other people and slaves. I think you can talk about the way in which certain people were given their rights while simultaneously other people were denied their rights.
You know, does it -- I think we just need to have an accurate rendering of American history and I think we should be starting to have these conversations and I'm glad many of us are.
LEMON: I want to talk about your book because you say that change takes more than not being racist. That people need to be actively anti-racist. What does it look like in terms of action, Ibram?
KENDI: Well, first and foremost, to do nothing in the face of racial inequality even, I mean, we were just talking about slavery, to do nothing in the face of slavery what happens to slavery? It continues. To do nothing in the face of Jim Crow, what happens? It continues. To do nothing in the face of police violence, it only continues.
And so, to do nothing is to allow racism to persist and to be complicit with its maintenance. And so, the opposite of racist isn't not racist, it's anti-racist. It's to actively challenge racist policy and power.
LEMON: On Friday night, I have to talk to you about this. The U.S. lost a hero, a hero in the civil rights movement and a hero to American in general, when Congressman John Lewis passed away. What do we have to learn from his legacy and the fight for equality and justice and also the fight for voting rights?
[22:54:53]
KENDI: I mean, he was somebody who showed us for decades and you know, how as he said to get in to good trouble. And obviously, many people are talking about good trouble. But I don't think that we're talking about what the opposite of that is.
And the opposite of good trouble is being, is seeing injustice, you know, seeing inequality. Seeing racism and then, being fearful of challenging it, because you are fearful of getting into trouble.
No, he wanted Americans to get in to trouble and he spent his whole life, you know, getting in to trouble to create a just and equitable America, and he had that courage to do that. And you know, ever since he was in his 20s and I think every American should follow in his wake and had that type of courage.
LEMON: Ibram X. Kendi, the book is "How to be an Antiracist," and you should pick it up. Thank you for appearing tonight and also for being on the podcast. Everyone should listen to that episode where we talk about the history of this country and also removal of monuments and how we have these conversations that we just discussed. Thank you, Ibram, be well.
KENDI: Thank you, Don. Of course.
LEMON: Thank you.
Dozens of states seeing coronavirus surges as multiple hot spots struggle with not enough ICU beds. What will it take to get this virus under control?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
