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Don Lemon Tonight

Barr: Systemic Racism Doesn't Exist; President Trump Wants Voters To Vote Twice; White House To Cut Funding For Democrat Cities; Blake Family Reacts To A.G. Barr's Comments; Coronavirus Hits Johnson Family; CDC Not To Be Ignored. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired September 02, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Time to bring in the man at "CNN TONIGHT" --

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: You got it.

CUOMO: D. Lemon.

LEMON: You have never been more right in your life.

CUOMO: Low bar.

LEMON: Man, what a week, a lot of misinformation, a lot of craziness. And it's only going to get worse.

CUOMO: I feel -- well, you know what? You, for the first time since I've been talking to you here, you agreed exactly with Donald John Trump.

LEMON: That what?

CUOMO: Donald John Trump sell --

LEMON: Sorry, I was throwing some of the garbage. Go ahead.

CUOMO: -- for -- for -- for his --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: It's like we're in our living room. I forgot, we're on TV.

CUOMO: -- for his reelection is --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- everything is going to hell in a hand basket and it's going to get worse so you better reelect me because I'm the only one who can fix it, ignoring the fact that he's the one who broke.

LEMON: One who broke -- well, I said it's going to get worse up until November 3rd. Now whatever happens after that, we shall see. That's not up to us. But I just think all of the rhetoric and the lying and the misinformation and the scapegoating and the -- what is Amanda Carpenter's book -- "The Gaslighting." This is going to go on and on and on until then. And then afterwards --

CUOMO: Afterwards worse.

LEMON: It could get worse.

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: It could get worse.

CUOMO: Because how does the president undo it? If he wins again, and he has refused to speak about systemic inequality, do you think there is going to be less unrest? We know the cases won't stop.

LEMON: Well, that was surprising to me about the attorney general saying that he didn't think that there was any sort of bias or racism in policing.

CUOMO: And he kind of put the stink on Jacob Blake.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And then he said he didn't know whether or not it's illegal to vote twice.

LEMON: Well, he -- shouldn't he be the one to know?

CUOMO: I mean --

LEMON: Yes. Well, I think -- I think he does know. I think that these people are so far, these people are apologists for this president that they can't see daylight, because they are consumed by him. Let's put it this way.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: They are complicit.

LEMON: They are complicit.

CUOMO: They are all clear eyed. You know, sometimes people say it's kind of culty. No, I don't see it that way.

LEMON: It's not kind of culty. It is really. I've said that before. So, I own it.

CUOMO: I believe that that is not giving enough credit to the honest, clear-eyed assessment of people like Barr, like the people around him in the White House who make a decision that they know what he is, they know what he's selling, and they stay. People who like --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: That's about power. CUOMO: People like Melania's friend, I don't write the book, not write the book, she's bitter, sour grapes or not, you make your own decision. I don't care about that. But she saw things she didn't like and she left. That's what you're supposed to do. If you don't like what it's about, if you don't like what I'm about, leave.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: That I respect.

LEMON: Well, I was just going to say, those are the people I respect. I don't think that there is sour grapes. For what? For what? Clearly, she does not --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I don't know. I'm sure they'll spin the book as --

LEMON: Of course, they will.

CUOMO: -- she screwed up the inauguration and Melania held her accountable and she thought she would get a break as a friend.

LEMON: There is --

CUOMO: Whatever.

LEMON: There is an investigation about that that will play out and we will see in the end, but just because she is writing a book and perceivably telling the truth does not mean that it's sour grapes. Sometimes it's just truth. Not sometimes. Most of the time, it's just truth without the spin. But what you're talking about is power. It's people who are consumed by power --

CUOMO: And proximity to power.

LEMON: -- and could you -- I was just going to say that. Could you let me say it?

CUOMO: You know what? But I am like zip --

LEMON: No.

CUOMO: And you're like --

LEMON: No, no, you're like this. I say something and you say it and you go like this. Like I talk about Biden --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: It's not just the hand gesture. You think you're a hand gesture away from saying it the same way I do.

LEMON: Yes, I just say it better.

CUOMO: You're not. LEMON: And I'm better looking.

CUOMO: You are better looking because --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: But that's genes. You were blessed with better genes.

LEMON: I got to tell you, I got to tell you, the conversations that we're having that I'm about to talk about on this show, the gaslighting and all of that, we need to do more of it, people. You need to have these conversations. I know you like to hear me and you like to hear Chris have these conversations. It's because it's no holds barred.

We go after each other if we disagree in person and on television, but yet we're still friends. And if I vehemently disagree with him, I vehemently disagree with him.

[22:04:59]

But guess what, his moral, makeup and background is -- are the reasons I'm attracted to a friendship with him. if someone is -- let's just say, Chris, that you, you know, were part of the cult. And I said, Chris, but it's the fact.

And you kept telling me, no, and my gosh, no, what about this, what about that, then I would have an issue with you. But guess what? You don't do that. And so, there are things as friends, right, that we have to own up to with each other in order for us to have a clear conversation that gets us to the next point.

CUOMO: I do think, though, that among our friends, one of the things that they do say that's true about the both of us -- because there are a lot of differences between the two of us personally -- is that we're OK being told that people don't agree with us.

LEMON: Fine.

CUOMO: And we don't hold it personally against people, and we both love people in our lives that don't share --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- feelings about things with us, even about our own job. But, listen, you got a lot -- you got precious time.

LEMON: I do.

CUOMO: You got to make the most of it.

LEMON: And it's hot in here.

CUOMO: It is hot, right?

LEMON: I know. (CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I thought it was the COVID.

LEMON: And I want to say, can you guys please turn down the air in here.

CUOMO: I'm getting -- I'm getting the Italy Afro (Ph) going. I'm getting the (Inaudible) over. I'm going to have to start using some of your product --

LEMON: I know. Your glue is going to come --

CUOMO: -- to keep it down all this ferret. The ferret here is very sensitive to humidity.

LEMON: All right. Go glue your wig back on. I'll see you later.

CUOMO: Don Lemon, I love you.

LEMON: I love you more, brother. You are the man. I'll see you soon.

This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

Yes, I do have a lot to talk to you about. You know, as I've this week I've just -- I've made more of a commitment just to focus on what's true and to bring you what's true and not necessarily like, well, the president said something really wacky so we must lead with it because that's what he wants to you to do.

So, we are going to do what is important to the viewer and to the American public to educate the viewer to have an informed electorate because we have a very important election coming up.

So, we want to inform you. I don't want to mislead you, any of you, whoever you support in this election, but you must be armed with the facts. And the fact is you cannot trust this administration, this president, to tell you the truth.

You can't trust him to tell you the truth about the virus that has killed more than 185,000 Americans. You can't trust him to tell you the truth on our elections. You cannot trust him to tell you the truth on race and crime.

Have you listened to him? You can't trust it. But what does he need, the truth for when he has people on his side like the attorney general, who will tie themselves up in knots to back everything this president says, including trying to convince you that there is no systemic racism in law enforcement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Do you think black people are treated differently by law enforcement than white people?

WILLIAM BARR, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think there are some situations where statistics would suggest that they are treated differently, but I don't think that that's necessarily racism.

BLITZER: What is it?

BARR: For this, you know, like, didn't Jesse Jackson say that when he looks behind him and he sees a group of young black males walking behind him, he's more scared than when he sees a group of white kids walking behind him? Does that make him a racist? Does that make him a racist?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I don't know. A good person to ask will be him. So, I'll let him speak for himself, but the attorney general right there unknowingly made the case for bias in our society. Whether it's Jesse Jackson or Attorney General Bill Barr, if I am the black man walking behind them, I don't want to be treated a certain way. How do you think that makes me feel or any black man feel who is walking behind someone, whether they're black, white, Puerto Rican, brown, whatever?

So, you just made the case for implicit bias and unconscious bias and racism. So, the attorney general of the United States, the top law enforcement official in the country, admitting that black people are treated differently by law enforcement. That was the admission.

He claims that's because of stereotypes, still, that's a bias. Kneejerk reactions that black people are scary, again, a bias. When you rely on stereotypes and when you're afraid of someone simply because the person is black, that's biased and that's racist, definition of.

And it's for those comments by the Reverend Jesse Jackson -- again, I said I'll let him speak for himself -- he was speaking in 1993 about black-on-black crime, and here is what he said.

Again, 1993, all right? Quote, "there is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see someone white and feel relieved."

[22:09:58]

He said he finds that painful. And when our show reached out to him tonight, he told us that he was saying we should not be living in fear of each other. And he released this statement, saying that the attorney general took his quote out of context saying this.

Attorney General William Barr used a quote of mine from the 1990s out of context and a text out of context is a pretext for something else. If Mr. Barr wants to know what I said in context and is willing to talk with me and not just about me, we can have that conversation. I look forward to speaking with him.

So, instead of pointing to something else, maybe he should just admit it or said, no, it's not so. Instead of saying, but look over here at the black guy. That's what happens a lot. And, by the way, one doesn't have to be white to be co-opted by a

system that is racist. You can be any ethnicity. OK. That's why you see black officers who treat black people horribly, because they have been co-opted by a system that is in some ways corrupt. Not the entire system, not all police officers. But people can be influenced and co- opted regardless of their ethnicity or racial makeup, facts.

But in the wake of the president's repeated attempts to minimize police violence against black people calling it choking, I want you to listen to what Joe Biden says today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The vast majority of police officers are good, decent and honorable women and men. They pin on that shield that morning and they have a right to go home that night safely, the vast majority.

But just those who are not good cops, I'm -- all the police I've dealt with my whole life, and I've been dealing with, I've gotten overwhelming support from law enforcement through my whole career, they're the ones that want to get rid of the bad cops even more than anybody else does because it reflects on them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, I said that you cannot trust what this president tells you. And you sure can't trust what he says about what may be the most sacred right of Americans, and that's voting.

The president who has been railing against voter fraud even though fact check after fact check has shown it is extremely rare in this country, again, facts. Well, today he appeared to encourage voter fraud, telling people to vote twice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well they'll go out and they'll vote, and they're going to have to go and check their vote by going to the poll and voting that way, because if it tabulates, then they won't be able to do that. So, let them send it in and let them go vote, and if the system is as good as they say it is, obviously they won't be able to vote. If it isn't tabulated, they'll be able to vote so that's the way it is. And that's what they should do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Why is he giving an interview with -- on the tarmac -- OK. But what he said, that's nothing but a blatant attempt by the president to sow doubt about the election, an election he is afraid that he will lose, encouraging people to fraudulently cast two ballots apparently in an effort to challenge the system of mail-in voting itself.

And the Attorney General Bill Barr is right. He's right where the president wants him, that's where he's right, claiming that voting on -- voting by mail is in the middle of a pandemic is, in his words, playing with fire.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: There are several states that only have mail-in voting, including a Republican --

(CROSSTALK)

BARR: No. This is playing with fire. This is playing with fire. We're a very closely divided country here. And if people have to have confidence in the results of the election and the legitimacy of the government and people trying to change the rules to this -- to this methodology which, as a matter of logic, is very open to fraud and coercion, is reckless and dangerous, and people are playing with fire.

BLITZER: I will point out there are five states that only have mail-in voting including Utah and Colorado, Washington State, Oregon, Hawaii, and they've reported over the years they've had virtually no problems, but who is trying to change the rules right now?

BARR: I would say the people who want to go to mass mail-in ballots.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He's right. That is playing with fire but not for the reasons that he says. People worried about a pandemic and their health? The attorney general's job is to do everything in his power to protect the integrity of our free and fair elections. That's what his job is. His job is not to double down on the president's outrageous attacks on voting by mail.

[22:15:02]

As if this is not -- there aren't extenuating circumstances in the time that we're living in right now. Because for them, it does not exist, this pandemic. They speak about it in the past tense. It was a Democratic hoax, remember?

I said this president is afraid that he is going to lose the election. That's why he is painting himself as the law and order president while encouraging fear and division in America.

But guess what? That is a strategy that may not be working, everyone, because we have a brand-new CNN poll out, and it finds more Americans think Joe Biden will keep them safe from harm. And there are more numbers that are going to get under this ratings-obsessed president's skin.

Today he tweeted a false claim that more people watched the Republican convention than the Democratic convention. This sounds familiar, right? Remember the inauguration? He said, nope, it is not true. Nielsen ratings says about 24.6 million people watched Joe Biden's DNC acceptance speech, only about 23.8 million watched the president's speech. As I said, remind you of anything?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEAN SPICER, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This is the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration, period, both in person and around the globe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Period. Sean Spicer, whatever happened to him? The attorney general now saying he does not believe there is systemic racism in this country. And that was just the beginning.

Evan Perez, Laura Coates, we're going to settle this, right after this.

[22:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, we have the breaking news tonight, the president threatening funding to Democratic-like cities, claiming that their leaders are allowing unrest. OK?

Plus, an eye-opening CNN exclusive interview tonight with Attorney General William Barr claiming that he doesn't think there is systemic racism in policing in the United States. And saying that he doesn't believe there are two justice systems in America.

Let's discuss now. CNN's Senior Justice Correspondent is Mr. Evan Perez and our senior legal analyst is Ms. Laura Coates, a former federal prosecutor. So, great to both of you on. Thank you so much. Good to see you.

Evan, you first. Can you please talk to me about this White House memo appearing to target cities run by Democrats? What is this about?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, this is a memo that specifies four cities in particular, Washington, D.C., New York, Seattle, and Portland. And what it says is that, the administration, including the Justice Department, are going to take a look at the federal funds that these cities receive from the federal government with a view to cutting them off, essentially, because of their handling of protests and anarchy in the words of the White House, the fact that the cities are struggling with some of these protests, or at least in the case of Portland are still struggling. In Washington and New York, I think there is a different scenario altogether.

But what you have the president, what you have the White House doing is essentially, as you said, targeting these cities to cut off the funds, defund, essentially, the police and any other city services that get federal funds as punishment for some of the protests that we've seen in the streets.

LEMON: That is the real defund the police right there if they want to defund these cities.

PEREZ: Right. LEMON: Laura, let's talk about the attorney general, William Barr, and what he told our Wolf Blitzer. He doesn't believe there is systemic racism in this country. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARR: I don't believe there are two justice systems. Let's -- you know, I think the narrative that there's -- that the police are on some epidemic of shooting unarmed black men is simply a false narrative and also the narrative that that's based on race. The fact of the matter, it's very rare for an unarmed African-American to be shot by a white police officer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What are the facts, Laura?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the facts are I've been inside of a courtroom more recently than Attorney General William Barr and have prosecuted cases, and my colleagues would tell you that there are, in fact, two justice systems, not because prosecutors have some ill intent, but because you often see that as a result of police practices and profiles that you will have a disparate impact and disparate number of people of color represented in our criminal justice system.

We know about sentencing guidelines, we know about the crack cocaine, distinction that still lingers on today, this is all part and derived from the systemic racism we've had our nation, it's the 13th amendment.

Now, the attorney general can certainly make the points be that overwhelmingly police officers don't wake up in the morning with the intent to kill unjustifiably just because they have the badge.

But you can also recognize when there are those who are engaged in behavior that is absolutely antithetical to what their charge is, when they engage in criminal behavior, and to simply ignore those cases in deference to trying to pander or cater or placate police officers really is bewildering.

You're looking at this person being the head of the Justice Department where we have a division, civil rights division that actually prosecutes color of law crimes because officers in fact do sometimes fall under this category. So, is that whole section irrelevant? I think not.

LEMON: Were you watching, Laura, aghast at what this -- because I was watching saying he -- this man is not living in reality or he just cannot, he just has to make excuses for the president and this administration.

COATES: That's because you and I live on planet Earth right now. I know it feels like Mars with the COVID-19 pandemic. We live on planet Earth. And with our eyes and our ears and actually reading and looking at what's going on, I certainly was aghast. [22:25:01]

I was looking back and forth and my children were in the room and they didn't understand the full context, but I kept thinking myself, is this really the attorney general of the United States who cannot answer basic questions such as, can you have armed guards and federal troops go to polling locations without a justification?

Not being able to answer questions about whether there are in fact was widespread fraud which there is not, because he used the word several. Whether you actually had any impact of race on the justice system? I was absolutely bewildered and befuddled and mostly disappointed. Because I know that there are career prosecutors right now who are scratching their heads, pounding their foreheads on the desk --

LEMON: Yes.

COATES: -- saying, sir, this is the Justice Department, not the department of denial.

LEMON: Yes. That was good, Laura. Listen, Evan, Wolf asked Attorney General Barr about the president's claim that thugs wearing dark uniforms were flying to the RNC and how the president changed the story. Here's that exchange and then we'll talk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Have you asked the FBI to investigate this?

BARR: I don't -- I don't have to ask the FBI because we received numerous reports of individuals coming from Portland, Washington, Seattle and several cities to come into Washington for the specific purpose of causing a riot.

BLITZER: Were they wearing black uniforms and were they loaded, if you will?

BARR: There were many on planes. We received multiple reports on this topic.

BLITZER: And so, what the president was talking about was information that you provided the president?

(CROSSTALK)

BARR: I don't -- I don't know what the president was specifically referring to.

BLITZER: Because it's widely reported. You're saying you don't know specifically what the president was referring to?

BARR: No, I don't know what the president was referring to.

BLITZER: When he spoke about this?

BARR: He would seem to be talking in general terms. I don't know what he's referring to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Evan, don't wear black on a plane. But listen, first he seems to defund -- defend this president saying that it is a real problem. And then he says well, he doesn't know what the president is referring to. So, which one is it?

PEREZ: Look, I think the attorney general is trying to figure out a way to not contradict the president, and what we know, Don, is, you know, from the beginning, from the beginning of these protests, we have heard reports that, from law enforcement, that they saw outside agitators, people coming from out of town, people coming to Minneapolis from Chicago, from Madison, Wisconsin, people coming to Portland from outside of Portland. We've heard those reports. Some of --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But is this like the caravan back in 2016?

PEREZ: We haven't -= right.

LEMON: I mean --

PEREZ: Exactly. We're not -- right. Exactly. And that's where, you know, the president is sort of taking it to another level, and some of it is matching up with a conspiracy theory that's been circulating on Facebook.

LEMON: Yes.

PEREZ: So, I don't know if that's what the president is talking about. But there -- as far as we could tell, the FBI has looked into multiple of these types of one-off cases, but nothing on the order of what the president has described, and certainly not what the attorney general seemed to be trying to give a little bit of backing to during this interview today.

LEMON: Evan, Laura, always a pleasure. Thank you very much. I'll see you guys soon.

COATES: Thank you.

PEREZ: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: The Attorney General Barr claiming Jacob Blake was in the process of committing a felony and was armed when shot. But he didn't offer any evidence for his claims. Jacob Blake's uncle responds, next.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, the attorney general was weighing in on the Jacob Blake shooting in Kenosha with this message for the Blake family. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARR: I guess my message to them would be what it would be to all Americans, which is in cases where it's possible or there is concern over excessive force, we have a process in this country to make that determination. And it involves initially the state looking at it and also the federal government.

And we are investigating it, and that should follow due process and be fair to everybody, including the police officer. And violence is not appropriate. Our justice system has to respond to analysis, reasoned analysis, not mob violence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, you know who I'd like to hear from, and that is a member of the Blake family. Jacob (sic) Blake is here. He's the uncle of Justin (sic) Blake.

Thank you, Jacob (sic). I wish we were seeing each other --

(CROSSTALK)

JUSTIN BLAKE, JACOB BLAKE'S UNCLE: Justin Blake, the uncle of little Jake.

LEMON: Of little Jake. I wish we were seeing each other under better circumstances again, because as you have reminded me, we knew each other in Chicago. But thank you so much. Or at least we met in Chicago for a night --

BLAKE: Yes.

LEMON: -- and at a dinner. So, listen, I would just want to -- I'm glad you're here. I'm sorry for what's happening with your family. But did you hear anything in that message that showed any concern for your nephew Jacob and what happened to him?

BLAKE: Salamu alaykum, Don. Thank you for having us tonight.

No, there seemed to be no sympathy whatsoever for our family nor my nephew that was shot seven times in the back. It looked as though they were trying to make him a scapegoat.

LEMON: He went on to say more about your nephew's case. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARR: Yes. Well, I'm not going to talk about Blake, the Blake case.

BLITZER: Why not?

BARR: Because I think it's different than the Floyd case.

BLITZER: What's different? BARR: Well, Floyd was already subdued, incapacitated, in handcuffs and

was not armed. In the Jacob case, he was in the midst of committing a felony and he was armed. So that's a big difference.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Justin, what's your reaction?

BLAKE: It sounds that Attorney Barr was trying to try our nephew in public media, but the fact of the matter is, we as Blakes aren't going to accept innuendos or gaslighting or outright lies about our nephew.

The fact of the matter is little Jake had no weapon on him and was shot seven times in his back by a police officer. Two other police officers standing there that could have taken him down if there was something going on that serious as opposed to the first thing they thought of, is take guns out and shoot an innocent person.

[22:35:09]

LEMON: The -- so let's go through some of this. Because attorney general -- you just addressed a lot of it. The attorney general said publicly that your nephew was in the middle of committing a felony and was armed.

So, again, I want to go through. There had been reports that there was a warrant out for his arrest in connection to domestic abuse call earlier in the year. The police said that there was a knife in the car. OK. So, can you address either of those points, because if it was in the car and he didn't have it -- you know what I'm saying.

BLAKE: Yes. We don't want to get in the weeds with it because we want attorney Crump and others to address that. But his father, my brother Jacob Blake, his mother Julia, and Crump, their attorney, have no equivocation that there was no weapon on little Jake when he was shot seven times in his back. And you can't make stories that will facilitate that being a proper way to police in 2020 in any city in this nation.

LEMON: I've got to ask you because I would be derelict in my duties as a journalist if I didn't. Because your family is going to be meeting with Joe and Jill Biden tomorrow, right?

BLAKE: Correct.

LEMON: What do you want to hear from them?

BLAKE: Well, you know, I'm glad to hear that my brother said earlier we're trying to push for the bills to be passed for George and his family. That's wonderful. Obviously, that needs to be done.

But this is 2020, and we need RBG and we need unity now. We've been through a systemic racism at every turn, in business, in school, at the bank. Every aspect you talk about. Reparations need to be on the table, it needs to be discussed in a real fashion. Like our brothers who want bills, laws, and legislation passed that

protect African-Americans, they look like little Jake all over this country. They keep talking about it's just one bad cop. If it's just one bad cop, why is every African-American family so concerned about their little son, brother or father every time they walk out the door? It's not just one person, it's systemic and we need to address it in 2020 before we go any further.

LEMON: Justin, thank you. I appreciate it. Come back and let us know how that meeting goes, OK? Thank you so much.

BLAKE: Will do, and thank you, brother, for having us.

LEMON: Thank you. We have some breaking news now. We have some breaking news now. It's about the rock. Dwayne Johnson says that he and his family have tested positive for COVID-19. That as the CDC is telling states to get ready for a vaccine as soon as October. And the NIH says don't count on it.

Well, Dr. Sanjay Gupta is here. We're lucky to have him. He's going to fill us in right after the break.

[22:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Breaking news on CNN. Actor Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson saying he and his family have tested positive for the disease, but also saying they are now fully in recovery.

I want to discuss now with CNN's Chief Medical Correspondent, and that is none other than the Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Doctor, thank you so much.

Dwayne Johnson says his family got the virus from close -- a close family friend who unwittingly infected them. I mean, it really goes to show you that people can get the virus even from people very close to you. You may not even know they have it. Most of the time, you don't.

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, because you may not have symptoms. You know, if you have symptoms, you should be staying at home, right? So, a significant amount of the spread in this country is coming from people who don't have symptoms don't realize they have the virus because they can't get tested and then spread it.

I mean that's been the problem sort of almost all along, Don. And I think a lot of families, a lot of people who are watching right now may say, look, we're having friends over, they've been totally safe, and maybe they have been, but everyone still has to behave like they could potentially have the virus.

Even if you got tested, if the test was positive, you should isolate yourself. But if the test was negative, you still have to behave like you could potentially have the virus because the test could come back positive the next day. So, for the time being, you know, as Labor Day weekend comes up and

you think about having friends over, be careful. Keep the distance. Wear the mask.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You're absolutely right.

GUPTA: Do what we've been talking about for months.

LEMON: Yes. I think we all get -- I think we all get a little lax as it goes on. Because I mean, I've told you, sometimes I forget the mask and then I have to turn around, I'm like, I forgot my mask, so now I keep extras.

GUPTA: Yes.

LEMON: But I think people as this go - goes along, you get a little bit lax and you think, well, maybe it's not going to happen.

GUPTA: Yes.

LEMON: But we all have to be really careful. Can we talk about this vaccine? The director of the NIH, Sanjay --

GUPTA: Sure.

LEMON: -- now saying a vaccine by October is unlikely despite guidance from the CDC to states to prepare for that? What's going on here? I mean, how do people make sure that this timeline isn't being influenced by politics, as so much is in this country right now?

GUPTA: It's really hard, Don. I mean, this is one of the most challenging stories I think I've ever covered for that reason. And you got to take these things in context, right? I mean, the FDA had this issue with hydroxychloroquine. They gave an authorization to a drug that had no evidence. They exaggerated the data around convalescent plasma.

So, these are problems and that erodes trust to some extent. So, they are going to have to build up that trust. But there is -- there is one thing, you know, I want to make clear. Is that, you know, when it comes to authorization of a medicine for someone who is really sick in a hospital, that's a different sort of bar.

With the vaccine, as you well know, Don, you're giving it to healthy people, right?

LEMON: Yes.

GUPTA: So, the bar has got to be higher. You can't have -- you can't make people sick who are healthy in order to potentially rush a vaccine. And also, when you authorize something as an emergency, it's because you're basically saying there is no viable alternative.

[22:45:02] Well, Don, even though, you know, people don't necessarily want to do this, the viable alternative here is that, as we're talking about, you wear a mask longer, you keep the distance longer. Do that a few months longer until the vaccine is nailed down.

I think that's, you know, I think what a lot of people are hoping happens. We're very clear on the safety and the efficacy before this thing is approved.

LEMON: Let's see. I want to play this for you, because the president, Sanjay, he was in North Carolina today, and I want you to check out this video. It's a big crowd. It's near the president. There is no mask, no social distancing. Not the example that you would like to see from the American public and from the president, right?

They're there with the leader of the free world, and they are not social distancing. I don't really see any masks. There may be one or two, but I can't really see. I mean, wow.

GUPTA: No. And, you know, one thing, Don, whenever we show this, you know what I immediately get tons of e-mails and tweets about is, what about the protests? What about the march and stuff like that? Sure. Any time you aggregate people in a middle of a pandemic, bad idea. Do without masks, worse idea. If it's indoors, even worse.

I mean, these are basic viral dynamics. The virus doesn't care. The virus just wants hosts to jump back and forth. But here's the thing. The vaccine, as Dr. Haseltine was saying earlier, has sort of become the Hail Mary, right? We can do whatever we want because the vaccine will come, you know, hopefully within the next couple of months. I think potential impact to that.

But that's never meant that we should abandon these public health practices now for a period of time need to adopt these public health practices because you're not going to immunize everybody right away.

So, that's just, it's not acceptable, and the president, you know, and everybody, you know, needs to be sending that message right now. The president has not sent it, right, at all. I mean, he had the event at the White House, 1,500 people sitting next to each other for a long period of time. That's a problem. People will get infected as a result of events like that.

LEMON: Listen, you expect, you hold the leader of the free world to a higher standard than you do anyone else, quite frankly. And it's not as if we don't talk about those protests being possibly super spreader events. We discuss it all the time on this network, especially --

GUPTA: Right.

LEMON: -- in the middle of the George Floyd and the big protests, what have you. So, it's always something. They're always going to be criticized.

Thank you very much, Sanjay. I appreciate it. I'll see you soon. I want to bring in now, Dr. Harold Varmus, the former director of the

National Institutes of Health. He is a Nobel Laureate for his work in cancer research and he is now public calling into question the CDC's credibility.

Dr. Varmus, good to see you and to talk about this. So, here's the headline from your recent op-ed, OK?

HAROLD VARMUS, FORMER DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Thank you. It has come to this. Ignore the CDC is what you say. That's a big deal. Tell me why you say that.

VARMUS: Well, look, the headline was not written by me, the headline was written by the New York Times, and it has the virtue of attracting readers, but we're not going to ignore the CDC. The CDC is an important institution. I think we need to be extremely cautious about what's being said these days because it's not entirely clear where these proclamations are coming from.

And in this case, when the CDC changed its guidelines with respect to the testing of asymptomatic people, just the topic that you were talking about with Sanjay Gupta, it is critical to recognize that what we're all about, whether you're wearing a mask or using protective equipment or testing people, the basic idea is to try to keep people who are infected away from people who are not so the virus can't get transmitted from one person to another.

Testing asymptomatic people is crucial. If we had the resources and we had the time and the personnel, we would test every person every day. That's not feasible. But we can do some reasonable testing of asymptomatic people, testing people who are likely to be aggregating, as you point out, at political events or at sports events, no -- testing people who have no symptoms but are known to have been in contact with someone who did have the virus.

These are very reasonable people, very reasonable priorities to set when using our precious testing resources. And this needs to be done much more broadly because the goal is to identify everybody who is infected whenever they're infected and ask them to be, in fact, insist, that they be separated from other people.

LEMON: Yes.

VARMUS: As Dr. Gupta was pointing out. The goal for the virus, to the extent that it thinks about anything, is to try to get to a new host and grow in that new host, and we're trying to get rid of the pandemic by preventing that from happening.

LEMON: Well, you gave a lot of information and answer -- you basically answered like four of the questions I had for you. So, in that amount of time, so you're very concise and we appreciate you coming on --

(CROSSTALK)

[22:50:02]

VARMUS: Let's not cut down time on going to the things.

LEMON: No, no, no. I've got -- unfortunately, it's television. I have to do it. But we will have you back because we -- I love the information that you give and your honesty and your candor, and we appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much, doctor.

VARMUS: My pleasure.

LEMON: Speaker Nancy Pelosi caught on camera not wearing a mask at a San Francisco salon, and take this, she's calling it all a setup, but shouldn't she know better?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Take this, the House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says that she was set up after she was seen not wearing a face mask at a San Francisco hair salon.

[22:55:04]

The business owner shared this video of Pelosi inside the salon not wearing a mask, as she walks from one room to another. Not wearing a mask and having haircuts indoors, against the rules there. The House speaker says a salon staff member told her one appointment at a time was allowed inside the building.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I take responsibility for trusting the word of a neighborhood salon that I've been to over the years many times. And that when they said what we're able to accommodate people, one person at a time, and that we can set up that time, I trusted that. As it turns out, it was a setup. So, I take responsibility for falling for a setup.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, the Speaker of the House is blaming the salon after she didn't wear a mask indoors. Tonight, the salon owner is denying it was a setup. Regardless, this is -- this far into the pandemic, the House Speaker should know what is safe and what isn't. We should all know.

It's our responsibility. Instead of claiming a setup, would have been just as easy for the speaker to say, you know what? I messed up. I should have worn a mask indoors.

We'll be right back.

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